Eddie Jones Not Out

[Paddington Bear]

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Flyhalves are normally pretty crap subs whereas scrumhalves usually make a positive impact.
I think he's lost it

To be fair whilst the match was lost in the 7 or so minutes after Smith was subbed Ford barely even touched the ball.

England forwards made three errors that proved consequential, as follows:

63 - lineout
65 - LCD (penalty try)
68 - not throwing the lineout 5

I personally hate planned substitutions and I don't agree with the decision to hook Smith but I don't think bringing Ford on had any impact on the match.

Ford's kicking at the death was very poor

[JM2K6]

Plus for whatever reason our defensive alignment was fucked as soon as Ford came on. It makes no sense it'd affect things but we were incredibly narrow all of a sudden.

[Brazil]

I'm paranoid enough to think it was a deliberate tactic by Eddie to show that he was right, Ford isn't the solution, and without Farrell we're fucked. Which I appreciate is mental, but then I'm not the one insisting that the sixth best EQ scrum half is central to the future of English rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

In many ways it's a logical call - bring on your experienced 10 to steer the ship home. Clearly doesn't have full confidence in Smith - seems very harsh given he'd played pretty well and marshalled us to a win against SA at the death but the simplest option seems the most logical one here for me.

[Kawazaki]

Plus for whatever reason our defensive alignment was fucked as soon as Ford came on. It makes no sense it'd affect things but we were incredibly narrow all of a sudden.

Defenders tend to bite in if they don't trust that the defender inside them in the line can make the tackle. You saw a good example of this when Isiekwe turned in because he thought Hogg had got around Itoje. Fast players like Hogg run those 'J' lines to hook in outside defenders.

Still, the England defence coach had literally never stepped foot on a rugby union pitch before last September. But Eddie knows best.

[Kawazaki]

.

[Torquemada 1420]

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

As an aside, I'm really surprised that it appears Eng had no contingency for this i.e. someone else with some basic practice at throwing.

Maybe, because Eng were behind, Jones wanted all his best attacking options on the field. If they had been winning, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have reacted differently.

[Paddington Bear]

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

As an aside, I'm really surprised that it appears Eng had no contingency for this i.e. someone else with some basic practice at throwing.

Maybe, because Eng were behind, Jones wanted all his best attacking options on the field. If they had been winning, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have reacted differently.

Strikes me we had a contingency of the jump around and throw to the front, turns out it didn't work. Stupid decision still but I think there was a plan.

[ASMO]

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

As an aside, I'm really surprised that it appears Eng had no contingency for this i.e. someone else with some basic practice at throwing.

Maybe, because Eng were behind, Jones wanted all his best attacking options on the field. If they had been winning, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have reacted differently.

Strikes me we had a contingency of the jump around and throw to the front, turns out it didn't work. Stupid decision still but I think there was a plan.

If you were able to discern any sort of "plan" from that game you are a better person then i am. I have absolutely no idea what England were trying to do either from what took place in the game or from the selections.

[JM2K6]

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

As an aside, I'm really surprised that it appears Eng had no contingency for this i.e. someone else with some basic practice at throwing.

Maybe, because Eng were behind, Jones wanted all his best attacking options on the field. If they had been winning, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have reacted differently.

Marler has basic practice at throwing and has done it in an emergency before (i.e. when the replacement hooker has been carded). However I doubt they'd have spent much time on this because how often do you see a non-hooker having to throw in? It's incredibly rare, largely because coaches aren't so fucking stupid as to not get a specialist on the field.

[Paddington Bear]

As an aside, I'm really surprised that it appears Eng had no contingency for this i.e. someone else with some basic practice at throwing.

Maybe, because Eng were behind, Jones wanted all his best attacking options on the field. If they had been winning, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have reacted differently.

Strikes me we had a contingency of the jump around and throw to the front, turns out it didn't work. Stupid decision still but I think there was a plan.

If you were able to discern any sort of "plan" from that game you are a better person then i am. I have absolutely no idea what England were trying to do either from what took place in the game or from the selections.

Not saying I like what we were doing, the kicking in particular has been covered already. With that said we had a decent lead with 15? minutes to play away in Edinburgh against a serious side and at points looked good value for it. As has been covered we then made numerous decisions that backfired spectacularly.

[ASMO]

Strikes me we had a contingency of the jump around and throw to the front, turns out it didn't work. Stupid decision still but I think there was a plan.

If you were able to discern any sort of "plan" from that game you are a better person then i am. I have absolutely no idea what England were trying to do either from what took place in the game or from the selections.

Not saying I like what we were doing, the kicking in particular has been covered already. With that said we had a decent lead with 15? minutes to play away in Edinburgh against a serious side and at points looked good value for it. As has been covered we then made numerous decisions that backfired spectacularly.

We had 20 minutes of total dominance and scored precisely zero points, overlaps kicked away, just complete confusion.

[sockwithaticket]

Strikes me we had a contingency of the jump around and throw to the front, turns out it didn't work. Stupid decision still but I think there was a plan.

If you were able to discern any sort of "plan" from that game you are a better person then i am. I have absolutely no idea what England were trying to do either from what took place in the game or from the selections.

Not saying I like what we were doing, the kicking in particular has been covered already. With that said we had a decent lead with 15? minutes to play away in Edinburgh against a serious side and at points looked good value for it. As has been covered we then made numerous decisions that backfired spectacularly.

Considering how much we'd dominated territory and possession 7 points was not a decent lead.

Wet conditions often produce mad moments that can result in a try out of nothing and wipe out such a slender advantage.

[Hugo]

Flyhalves are normally pretty crap subs whereas scrumhalves usually make a positive impact.
I think he's lost it

To be fair whilst the match was lost in the 7 or so minutes after Smith was subbed Ford barely even touched the ball.

England forwards made three errors that proved consequential, as follows:

63 - lineout
65 - LCD (penalty try)
68 - not throwing the lineout 5

I personally hate planned substitutions and I don't agree with the decision to hook Smith but I don't think bringing Ford on had any impact on the match.

Ford's kicking at the death was very poor

Plus for whatever reason our defensive alignment was fucked as soon as Ford came on. It makes no sense it'd affect things but we were incredibly narrow all of a sudden.

Actually, I'm wrong on this and agree with both of you. Having rewatched the second half things went to complete shit after the the subs were made. It was the turning point in the match, the wind went completely out of our sails and the momentum shifted entirely. That can't be entirely coincidental.

Also, the argument that the Ford substitution was all about the experienced hand steadying the ship is weak when you consider that when he came on he was pensive and he didn't show any confidence or leadership. As you say his restarts were not good.

[JM2K6]

Good Lord what made you rewatch it

[ASMO]

Good Lord what made you rewatch it

He is a closet opus dei member but instead of using the cilice as his penance, he forces himself to watch replays of England games, specifically last seasons 6N

[Paddington Bear]

Echo the above sadism related comments.

It really wasn't good enough from Ford. Leaving everything else aside, a fly-half with 80 caps should have steered us far more effectively than he did.

[Mahoney]

My recollection of killer moments other than the PT in the second half were when Scotland had a defensive lineout and we conceded a penalty, and then again when Itoje got caught miles offside charging down the 9 in their half. Both turned good field position into a deep defensive position and really took the wind out of our sails.

[OomStruisbaai]

Jones should have started with Ford and ended with Smith.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Jones should have started with Ford and ended with Smith.

He should have started with Smith and ended with Smith.

By the same token, he should have started with somebody other than Youngs and ended with somebody other than Youngs.

[Crash669]

Jones should have started with Ford and ended with Smith.

He should have started with Smith and ended with Smith.

By the same token, he should have started with somebody other than Youngs and ended with somebody other than Youngs.

Literally anybody. A dead body, a body of water, anybody.

[OomStruisbaai]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

[Grandpa]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

[sockwithaticket]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

Now, now. We all know South Africa are always the best team in the world and a shining example of how to do things regardless of their results.

[OomStruisbaai]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

Last time I checked we were nr 1 on the rankings and is WC champs.

[sockwithaticket]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

Last time I checked we were nr 1 on the rankings and is WC champs.

Why you lot constantly bring up being in possession of a trophy is beyond me, it doesn't mean anything after the tournament.

Rankings are the only decent representation of where teams currently are and the sooner we stop giving double weighting to world cup matches the more accurate they'll be.

[Slick]

Nowadays you want your best XV after 80 mins on the pitch. The longer the others figure this out , the more it's advantage Springboks

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

Yeah, but they were all the refs fault.

[pjm1]

For a while, I actually though Ben Youngs was moving over to throw into the lineout after LCD went off... I was relieved when Marler took it up thinking, "oh well they must have practiced this". Or maybe not.

I don't know what happened to our attack from the AIs and, in fact, from parts of last year's 6N... while the results were crap, it looked like we were trying to build a different style of attack with lots of passing through the pods to keep the defence guessing. Scotland's defence didn't have to guess at all - they could see where we were going and if it got a bit edgy then never mind, we'll kick it anyway. The only exception was Smith's nice line for the try. He'll get dropped for that, no doubt. Anyone thinking that Ben Youngs did a nice delayed pass to put Smith through the gap needs to realise that's the fastest pass than Youngs can actually make. He's basically the sloth in Zootropolis.

[weegie01]

It is sobering to consider how much Youngs has earned playing for England.

[Guy Smiley]

Didn't they lose five times last year? Probably not the benchmark to use...

Last time I checked we were nr 1 on the rankings and is WC champs.

Why you lot constantly bring up being in possession of a trophy is beyond me, it doesn't mean anything after the tournament.

Rankings are the only decent representation of where teams currently are and the sooner we stop giving double weighting to world cup matches the more accurate they'll be.

There's a desperate need involved.


Anyway... great to see Eddie is still there at the helm. Wonderful coach, fantastic ambassador for the game and a charming bloke. Perfect for England rugby

[eldanielfire]

14 minutes to go.

Edit: actually, it would've been even more than that. George came on right after the lineout, so ten minutes to go.

Midol has 66 mins so that tallies. I know you want every stone available to throw at Jones but I just don't think that incident was a big deal. If Marler hadn't done a clown throw, it would not even be being discussed. When a hooker goes, rarely will you see anything change until it is forced to at the next scrum. Eng might have had zero own throw lineouts for the 10 min bin and I can see why Jones would want to keep a backrow on when down to 14 over a sub hooker.

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

I've often said Eddie Jones is a flawed but brilliant coach. But there are some glaring flaws, often in contradiction to what he says teams need. How many occasions have there been some spectacular mistake from England, either the players clueless for something or some weird coaching clanger? It's weird. Some of it predates Jones as well.

[Grandpa]

When was the last flawless England coach? They all end up being lampooned... even Sir Clive...

It's almost impossible with any national team to be a great coach for more than a year or two. There will be bad times between the good. The problem is if there are no good times.

[Paddington Bear]

Midol has 66 mins so that tallies. I know you want every stone available to throw at Jones but I just don't think that incident was a big deal. If Marler hadn't done a clown throw, it would not even be being discussed. When a hooker goes, rarely will you see anything change until it is forced to at the next scrum. Eng might have had zero own throw lineouts for the 10 min bin and I can see why Jones would want to keep a backrow on when down to 14 over a sub hooker.

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

I've often said Eddie Jones is a flawed but brilliant coach. But there are some glaring flaws, often in contradiction to what he says teams need. How many occasions have there been some spectacular mistake from England, either the players clueless for something or some weird coaching clanger? It's weird. Some of it predates Jones as well.

It 100% predates Jones. You see this at all levels of English rugby and have done for as long as I can remember - our teams are just dumb.

[Biffer]

This was a rare occasion where the backs decided things. England's forwards provided more than enough ball to put this game away, but a mixture of ineptitude and sticking rigidly to Eddie's ridiculous kicking plan meant we didn't take advantage of it.

Scotland, on the other hand, were sharp enough to make use of the ball they did have and produce two try scoring opportunities.

Also, any calls for Eddie to go are based on far more than this result.

England have done well since Eddie took over. You played in the WC final. Destroyed the All Blacks in the semi. He brought Smith through the ranks, some world class players specially in the pack.

Obvious he is the type of coach that think ahead and do strange coaching which is difficult for supporters to understand.

Keep your faith in him.

He's absolutely tanked our record against Scotland, we now have a better win rate against the Boks! He's delivered 2 fifth place finished in the 6N, more than any other coach.

He's frequently had us playing dreadful, absolutely dreadful, rugby that completely squanders the talent under his disposal. If our players weren't as good as they are we'd lose far more frequently and he'd have been out on his ear a while back.

The highs are high, but the lows are low. The highs are also becoming less and less frequent. He's done and should've been moved on last year at the latest.

I'd like to highlight that England under Eddie have a higher win rate against every other team compared to their win rate v Scotland.

(Ok, New Zealand is technically the same, but they've had more chance to win v Scotland)

[Kawazaki]

When was the last flawless England coach? They all end up being lampooned... even Sir Clive...

It's almost impossible with any national team to be a great coach for more than a year or two. There will be bad times between the good. The problem is if there are no good times.

In the very first chapter, first few pages in fact of Eddie Jones's latest book he says specifically that English clubs in the Premiership don't play very good rugby and his job was to raise that standard. That was how he opened the book.


Jones doesn't like being here. He loves the money though.

[Grandpa]

When was the last flawless England coach? They all end up being lampooned... even Sir Clive...

It's almost impossible with any national team to be a great coach for more than a year or two. There will be bad times between the good. The problem is if there are no good times.

In the very first chapter, first few pages in fact of Eddie Jones's latest book he says specifically that English clubs in the Premiership don't play very good rugby and his job was to raise that standard. That was how he opened the book.


Jones doesn't like being here. He loves the money though.

Yeah, he's not one to muffle his own trumpet... he doesn't hate it in the UK. He just likes to build himself up.. make out that he has a big job to do and by golly you better all appreciate it...

[Kawazaki]

When was the last flawless England coach? They all end up being lampooned... even Sir Clive...

It's almost impossible with any national team to be a great coach for more than a year or two. There will be bad times between the good. The problem is if there are no good times.

In the very first chapter, first few pages in fact of Eddie Jones's latest book he says specifically that English clubs in the Premiership don't play very good rugby and his job was to raise that standard. That was how he opened the book.


Jones doesn't like being here. He loves the money though.

Yeah, he's not one to muffle his own trumpet... he doesn't hate it in the UK. He just likes to build himself up.. make out that he has a big job to do and by golly you better all appreciate it...

Can you imagine if you're a Premiership DoR and you read that?

Jones is a fucking idiot, a total and utter wanker.

[Grandpa]

In the very first chapter, first few pages in fact of Eddie Jones's latest book he says specifically that English clubs in the Premiership don't play very good rugby and his job was to raise that standard. That was how he opened the book.


Jones doesn't like being here. He loves the money though.

Yeah, he's not one to muffle his own trumpet... he doesn't hate it in the UK. He just likes to build himself up.. make out that he has a big job to do and by golly you better all appreciate it...

Can you imagine if you're a Premiership DoR and you read that?

Jones is a fucking idiot, a total and utter wanker.

And they probably know that so likely aren't too bothered by it...

[sockwithaticket]

England have done well since Eddie took over. You played in the WC final. Destroyed the All Blacks in the semi. He brought Smith through the ranks, some world class players specially in the pack.

Obvious he is the type of coach that think ahead and do strange coaching which is difficult for supporters to understand.

Keep your faith in him.

He's absolutely tanked our record against Scotland, we now have a better win rate against the Boks! He's delivered 2 fifth place finished in the 6N, more than any other coach.

He's frequently had us playing dreadful, absolutely dreadful, rugby that completely squanders the talent under his disposal. If our players weren't as good as they are we'd lose far more frequently and he'd have been out on his ear a while back.

The highs are high, but the lows are low. The highs are also becoming less and less frequent. He's done and should've been moved on last year at the latest.

I'd like to highlight that England under Eddie have a higher win rate against every other team compared to their win rate v Scotland.

(Ok, New Zealand is technically the same, but they've had more chance to win v Scotland)

Yeah, I singled out the Boks because they were such a problem for us for about a decade. Now it's you.

[Biffer]

He's absolutely tanked our record against Scotland, we now have a better win rate against the Boks! He's delivered 2 fifth place finished in the 6N, more than any other coach.

He's frequently had us playing dreadful, absolutely dreadful, rugby that completely squanders the talent under his disposal. If our players weren't as good as they are we'd lose far more frequently and he'd have been out on his ear a while back.

The highs are high, but the lows are low. The highs are also becoming less and less frequent. He's done and should've been moved on last year at the latest.

I'd like to highlight that England under Eddie have a higher win rate against every other team compared to their win rate v Scotland.

Yeah, I singled out the Boks because they were such a problem for us for about a decade. Now it's you.
(Ok, New Zealand is technically the same, but they've had more chance to win v Scotland)

Oh, I do hope it's a decade. At least .