The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Yr Alban]

This is just starting to piss me off now. 23-point lead with less than 20 mins to play, and somehow we contrive to make it look close.

I’m torn between ‘we’re better than this and we aren’t performing’ and ‘actually we’re mediocre with the occasional good performance’. Neither of these is palatable, but it’s clearly one or the other.

Next week could be legitimately grim.

[Slick]

Hmm, not really sure what to make of that.

As we all know, it’s difficult to get yourself up for the shite teams so I guess a bonus point win is job done and move on. Problem is what we are moving on to…

Finn is just miles of his game, his kicking was terrible but also just wasn’t creating like he can do.

Have to say, if wee Darcy played for any other team he would get a lot more recognition than he does. Darge was good again. Turner great around the park. Price great in broken field but really slow elsewhere. Steyn really not very good.

Just blabbing now

[Big D]

We (well the SRU) paid good money for an attack coach and since he's come in our attack has looked very average. Unless the plan all along is wait til they kick it and we get broken field or can take a quick line out.

The back 3 missed a terrible amount of tackles. Starting to be a worry in this 6N with Graham.

[Yr Alban]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

[I like neeps]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

I found last year Vs Wales and Ireland quite torturous..

[I like neeps]

This is just starting to piss me off now. 23-point lead with less than 20 mins to play, and somehow we contrive to make it look close.

I’m torn between ‘we’re better than this and we aren’t performing’ and ‘actually we’re mediocre with the occasional good performance’. Neither of these is palatable, but it’s clearly one or the other.

Next week could be legitimately grim.

Mediocre with the annual great performance Vs England.

[Yr Alban]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

I found last year Vs Wales and Ireland quite torturous..

Yeah, but we’d probably have won v Wales if we had kept 15 on the pitch, and if we had then we’d be defending our maiden 6N title right now.

[KingBlairhorn]

Interesting this, it didn’t feel that way:

[I like neeps]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

I found last year Vs Wales and Ireland quite torturous..

Yeah, but we’d probably have won v Wales if we had kept 15 on the pitch, and if we had then we’d be defending our maiden 6N title right now.

Or if Gary Graham hadn't put in a 0/10 performance. Or if we didn't allow Wales their annual score on halftime thanks to some awful discipline.

[Yr Alban]

It’s got to be said that the 5th place we are inevitably heading for is no more than we deserve. The last time we promised so much and delivered so little must have been in 2000.

[KingBlairhorn]

The red in the England game might save us from 5th. They are +34 in PD, we are -8. There could be a huge swing here.

[Slick]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

Are you seriously suggesting sacking Toonie at this stage?

We haven’t been firing, and we’re awful against Wales, but it hasn’t been awful really. We’ve also had a shedload of injuries since England - our entire back row for instance

[I like neeps]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

Are you seriously suggesting sacking Toonie at this stage?

We haven’t been firing, and we’re awful against Wales, but it hasn’t been awful really. We’ve also had a shedload of injuries since England - our entire back row for instance

Eh two of the starters in the backrow started today.

You just know these Ireland offloads stick next week.

[Big D]

Without going to deep into it, there needs to be a shake up in ideas from the coaches. Our attack hasn't fired all season. Might have to wait until the summer though.

We're going to faced with either an embarrassed Ireland and an Ireland looking to rack up points. It will be carnage.

Steyn can't play next week. His defence was horrible today and be looked like he was running in treacle at times. Kinghorn would have been crucified if that was him.

Townsend also needs to pick his 7.

[KingBlairhorn]

The red in the England game might save us from 5th. They are +34 in PD, we are -8. There could be a huge swing here.

Never mind

[Blackmac]

As I said a few weeks we have just too many bang average players in the front 5, yes we might have improved in the scrum and they may feature every now and again in the loose but even at what we would consider full strength we are far below the standards of Eng, Ire, Wales and France and only marginally better than Italy.

[Yr Alban]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

Are you seriously suggesting sacking Toonie at this stage?

We haven’t been firing, and we’re awful against Wales, but it hasn’t been awful really. We’ve also had a shedload of injuries since England - our entire back row for instance

Let’s look at this dispassionately. We have gone rapidly backwards. Last year we were contenders (yes, I know we finished 4th, but we won 3 games and lost the others narrowly). This year we aren’t even close. We’ve lost the attacking flair we had 4 years ago, lost the defensive grit we had in the last 2 years, and we have an unacceptable disciplinary and unforced error problems. I think Toony has taken us as far as he can and he doesn’t know how to get us out of the mess we’re in. I know there’s no chance of the SRU sacking him this side of the RWC, but we may as well write it off now.

[Slick]

I know Toony has the best record of any Scotland coach, but the 6N is still an annual torture. We had brief respite last year but now we have reverted to type. Toony obviously knows that our form has fallen off a cliff but doesn’t seem to have any idea how to fix it. What is his plan? We had the best attack in the 6N. Then we had the best defence. Now we don’t seem to be able to do either convincingly. This is not progress. But there is zero chance the SRU will sack him at this point in a RWC cycle, so I guess we can all write the RWC off entirely.

Are you seriously suggesting sacking Toonie at this stage?

We haven’t been firing, and we’re awful against Wales, but it hasn’t been awful really. We’ve also had a shedload of injuries since England - our entire back row for instance

Eh two of the starters in the backrow started today.

You just know these Ireland offloads stick next week.

Yeah, but only 1 against Wales and none against France (I think)

Your 2nd point, fucking without a doubt

I do think next week will show us where we really are. I’d like to discount the Wales game as a one off truly shite performance, but we will see

[Yr Alban]

Are you seriously suggesting sacking Toonie at this stage?

We haven’t been firing, and we’re awful against Wales, but it hasn’t been awful really. We’ve also had a shedload of injuries since England - our entire back row for instance

Eh two of the starters in the backrow started today.

You just know these Ireland offloads stick next week.

Yeah, but only 1 against Wales and none against France (I think)

Your 2nd point, fucking without a doubt

I do think next week will show us where we really are. I’d like to discount the Wales game as a one off truly shite performance, but we will see

I want to believe that we’re going to pull out a command performance and really give them a game. But let’s face it, that isn’t going to happen. We are going to fold. It will be a stroll in the park for Ireland and Tom English will have multiple orgasms over how shite we were. I literally can’t see that we have any chance at all. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I cannot see it. We are too mentally fragile for a game like this.

[Slick]

I just don’t think apart from Wales we have been that awful. Certainly expected more and the continual idiot penalties are hugely frustrating but we have scored some cracking tries, worry defences and have our own decent defence, it just hasn’t quite clicked.

As I said after France, I think other countries rate is higher than we rate ourselves

[Yr Alban]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

[Tichtheid]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

I haven't watched it back yet, but I tend to agree with a lot of that.

I thought we were heading for a real pumping next week until I saw what can be done if you front up in the pack.
We really miss Ritchie, his focussed, cool-headed aggression is just the thing we need from all eight starting forwards and the five replacements if we are to stand a chance against Ireland.

The thing is, there are no real contenders putting pressure on the coaches, there won't be much controversy in the selection because they will be the best players we have available.

[Big D]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

Some of it was good, some muddled (why is Price letting Schoeman pick and go in our 22 off turnover ball?) and some poor (individuals tackling for example).

My concern is the lack of consistent and good attacking patterns that are producing chances. 3 of 5 tries today were well taken but aren't chances that better defences will give us from loose kicks/quick throw in and poor defensive chases. The 4th ( I think) gave a glimpse of what they are trying to do but aren't doing it anywhere near consistently enough.

[Slick]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

Pretty good summary that.

As Tichtheid said, we saw what we need to do to make Ireland vulnerable, they looked very average in parts today, but ominous in others.

Problem is of course Ireland will not get pinged like that at home and no way they throw away that much ball at home. The glimmer of hope is that England had exactly zero in attack and we at least know we can be dangerous there. Also, they will be chasing a big win so there will be opportunities

I don’t think it will be a humping and will probably give us the best indication of where we are, but can’t see a win

[Slick]

What I don’t understand about Ireland is why those wraparounds they have been doing constantly for about a decade are still so effective. That’s the root of all their attacks and there must be a way to stop it better but seemingly no one has found a way!

[SomersetJock]

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

Very nervous myself and I am usually Mr optimistic, I think the France match knocked the stuffing out of my positivity for this season.

You up for a few beers to suffer next weekends match in the pub ?

[dpedin]

What I don’t understand about Ireland is why those wraparounds they have been doing constantly for about a decade are still so effective. That’s the root of all their attacks and there must be a way to stop it better but seemingly no one has found a way!

They were parked for a while and are back in vogue now. I think their current effectiveness is because they are not the root of all our attacks and are used a bit more sparingly. We punch holes in the midfield more readily and keep teams guessing. Look at the number of offloads we make as shit as our hands were at times

Threat of a 50:22 means that wingers sit further back to protect their touchlines so there is some extra space now available off first or second phase balls. Using a wrap around can create an extra man if done well and means you can make more yards or at best create an overlap.

[Slick]

What I don’t understand about Ireland is why those wraparounds they have been doing constantly for about a decade are still so effective. That’s the root of all their attacks and there must be a way to stop it better but seemingly no one has found a way!

They were parked for a while and are back in vogue now. I think their current effectiveness is because they are not the root of all our attacks and are used a bit more sparingly. We punch holes in the midfield more readily and keep teams guessing. Look at the number of offloads we make as shit as our hands were at times

Oh yeah, not suggesting it’s all you’ve got but it is a big part and I’m just amazed no one has worked out how to defend them

[I like neeps]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

I think they played better because I agree this is the game they target...

Not sure they pulled out all the stops though, I thought Italy were generally quite bad and had zero composure. If that's Italy's best I can see why the call for relegation is growing.

[Tichtheid]

This is just starting to piss me off now. 23-point lead with less than 20 mins to play, and somehow we contrive to make it look close.

I’m torn between ‘we’re better than this and we aren’t performing’ and ‘actually we’re mediocre with the occasional good performance’. Neither of these is palatable, but it’s clearly one or the other.

Next week could be legitimately grim.

Mediocre with the annual great performance Vs England.

We're flat track bullies against meagre opposition :-)

[Tichtheid]

The stats up there from optojohnny are a little surprising but I think a lot of gloss was taken off the win by conceding three tries in that left hand corner.

Three of our tries came from very good breaks and support, the other two were straight off the training park.

Disco's stats on the Weedgie board state that we have only scored more than five tries away from home twice in this tournament, once at Twckenham a couple of years ago and once against Wales in 1925.

It's our second ever BP win away from home

[I like neeps]

This is just starting to piss me off now. 23-point lead with less than 20 mins to play, and somehow we contrive to make it look close.

I’m torn between ‘we’re better than this and we aren’t performing’ and ‘actually we’re mediocre with the occasional good performance’. Neither of these is palatable, but it’s clearly one or the other.

Next week could be legitimately grim.

Mediocre with the annual great performance Vs England.

We're flat track bullies against meagre opposition :-)

I think that if you look at the good teams we beat regularly: England, France, Australia it's a confidence thing. France were bad for a period of time but that's now over (and probably was last year but no fans is a wildcard). Australia again aren't good really anymore and England are up and down. Whereas Wales - clear decline and Ireland 2019 wasn't the best we still don't win probably because we don't have the confidence. But we do show composure and can beat England, France and Australia in tight matches I think because we've done it before.

[Big D]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

I think they played better because I agree this is the game they target...

Not sure they pulled out all the stops though, I thought Italy were generally quite bad and had zero composure. If that's Italy's best I can see why the call for relegation is growing.

In the last 10 seasons they've won 4 games against tier 1 opposition. This is about to be 7 6Ns in a row where they've won no games.

They are not a good side. If they weren't already in then there'd be zero clamour for them to join other than to grow the game.

Scotland were mince for a long time too but we never went on a run like that.

[I like neeps]

Someone needs to tell Schoeman to attack Furling from 45 degrees. He can't handle it!

[Paddington Bear]

Watched the game back. Difficult one to call. I’ve said it before, but we play a completely different Italy from the other 6N teams - an Italy who believe they can win, especially at home. So they pulled out all the stops again. Our attacking play was pretty good at times and resulted in some good tries. If the game had ended when we were 33-10 up, we’d be happy. Even if it had ended 33-17, we’d probably be satisfied. It’s the final try, in stoppage time, which made it look close, that has upset us all. Prior to that passage of play, I actually thought that Vellacott had injected some urgency and we were looking decent for a 6th try,

I still think we are getting manshamed next week. We are nowhere close to being able to challenge Ireland on their own turf.

I think they played better because I agree this is the game they target...

Not sure they pulled out all the stops though, I thought Italy were generally quite bad and had zero composure. If that's Italy's best I can see why the call for relegation is growing.

In the last 10 seasons they've won 4 games against tier 1 opposition. This is about to be 7 6Ns in a row where they've won no games.

They are not a good side. If they weren't already in then there'd be zero clamour for them to join other than to grow the game.

Scotland were mince for a long time too but we never went on a run like that.

They’re on a similar level to Japan and Fiji IMO, significantly better than the Tongas/USAs/Georgias of this world and significantly worse than Argentina.
If they weren’t in the 6N they’d be wiping the floor with the ENC and we’d be talking about how much better the tournament would be with a sixth side

[KingBlairhorn]

The stats up there from optojohnny are a little surprising but I think a lot of gloss was taken off the win by conceding three tries in that left hand corner.

Three of our tries came from very good breaks and support, the other two were straight off the training park.

Disco's stats on the Weedgie board state that we have only scored more than five tries away from home twice in this tournament, once at Twckenham a couple of years ago and once against Wales in 1925.

It's our second ever BP win away from home

Stats though, eh. We also had a tackle completion of around 84%. Shocking.

[KingBlairhorn]

Someone needs to tell Schoeman to attack Furling from 45 degrees. He can't handle it!

The chances of us getting away with that for one scrum, let alone a whole match, are pretty much nil though. So much rugby reffing is decided before the first whistle, including breakdown and scrum dominance.

[I like neeps]

Someone needs to tell Schoeman to attack Furling from 45 degrees. He can't handle it!

The chances of us getting away with that for one scrum, let alone a whole match, are pretty much nil though. So much rugby reffing is decided before the first whistle, including breakdown and scrum dominance.

What's frustrating is the TMO has that view he can easily tell the ref white number 1 is at an angle.

[I like neeps]

The stats up there from optojohnny are a little surprising but I think a lot of gloss was taken off the win by conceding three tries in that left hand corner.

Three of our tries came from very good breaks and support, the other two were straight off the training park.

Disco's stats on the Weedgie board state that we have only scored more than five tries away from home twice in this tournament, once at Twckenham a couple of years ago and once against Wales in 1925.

It's our second ever BP win away from home

Stats though, eh. We also had a tackle completion of around 84%. Shocking.

What an interesting stat would be is in the last 7 years since Italy won how many times the opposition hasn't got a bonus point against them. I'm going to guess under 10

I listened to the BBC Scotland rugby podcast and what is notable I think is Townsend also tried to say how good Italy are. And English, Burke and Wright really had none of it saying they'd scored one try and 16 points until the Scotland game. I think slowly but very notably with Palmer's article last week the rugby press are turning on him.

[Big D]

I think they played better because I agree this is the game they target...

Not sure they pulled out all the stops though, I thought Italy were generally quite bad and had zero composure. If that's Italy's best I can see why the call for relegation is growing.

In the last 10 seasons they've won 4 games against tier 1 opposition. This is about to be 7 6Ns in a row where they've won no games.

They are not a good side. If they weren't already in then there'd be zero clamour for them to join other than to grow the game.

Scotland were mince for a long time too but we never went on a run like that.

They’re on a similar level to Japan and Fiji IMO, significantly better than the Tongas/USAs/Georgias of this world and significantly worse than Argentina.
If they weren’t in the 6N they’d be wiping the floor with the ENC and we’d be talking about how much better the tournament would be with a sixth side

I don't think we would, and we wouldn't be claiming for Italy full time but possibly promotion/relegation. The last time they beat Georgia it was by 8 or 9 points. They scraped past Uruguay in November. About to lost 35+ in a row in the 6N isn't a good look.

Italy have had 20 years of the 6N, about 13 years of having pro teams in a competitive league. They should be better than the PI teams, who are hugely under funded and not given a fair shake.

Something has to give and if it ends in Scotland getting relegated one year so be it. I think I am now for promotion and relegation. We can't have a major competition with a team losing 35+ in a row. Where does it stop before something changes 50? They'll probably beat us at Murrayfield next year now I've said that but the point stands.