The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

Where goats go to escape
Big D
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Slick wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:42 am
Tichtheid wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:37 am I'm in the Keep Toonie In camp.

As was said elsewhere, if the players get rid of Townsend they have far too much control and what is to stop them getting rid of the next guy?

It is the players who have set that culture of "yeah fuck this, I'm just going for a sesh, see youse Tuesday"

I'd rather lose with guys who would crawl over broken glass to wear the shirt.
I'm still in that camp as well.

I think it was yourself that mentioned bringing in a specialist breakdown coach which seems sensible. But it's 18months to the WC, which seems to be the line in the sand, and GT has turned things around before and deserves another chance. I think Finn has to be left out and planning done on the basis of him not being selected.

I reluctantly think Hogg has to move on from the captaincy and it given to one of the new generation, Ritchie really. The most important thing is that we protect the young guys from the fall out of this and have one of their generation leading
I'm on the fence on Townsend. I can see the arguments of both sides.

The world cup and the prep was a farce. Of course we have no right to assume we should beat Japan in Japan but the performances were so poor. He was then given the green light to continue so is that not a second chance? How many chances should a coach get? I honestly don't know.

The last 3 years have seen a steady increase in penalties and tries conceded and the attack has dropped off pretty alarmingly from last year. And he has come over as fairly weak over this week by players seemingly defying him and there being no real consequences for it.

There have been many positives under Townsend but their are negatives too.
Big D
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 am This Thistle in their newsletter suggesting what happened was:

While the events of Saturday evening (and Sunday morning) are not entirely clear, and not just due to the strength of a Why Not jaeger bomb, we know from the SRU that Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were all disciplined for breaching team protocols after their Six Nations victory over Italy. While the Murrayfield media machine provided few details beyond this, the Thistle spies tell us that the following is rumoured to have taken place:

The players were told they were allowed a few drinks on the plane back from Rome to celebrate Ali Price’s 50th cap , but to leave it at that, with a recovery day planned for the Sunday

The six players mentioned decided to carry on the night out after landing in Edinburgh, despite the warnings of some back room staff members, and made their way to fabled George Street institution Why Not

Gregor Townsend somehow found out about the illicit night out (perhaps he had his suspicions and was surveying the Why Not Facebook page…), rang Hogg and ordered the players back to the hotel within thirty minutes, otherwise they would be dropped for the Ireland match

Some of the players obeyed the instruction (including Hoggy) but others such as Russell and Johnson carried on with their night

We understand that although Johnson returned to the hotel at c.4am, Russell instead went to his parents house in Stirlingshire, and failed to attend the next day’s recovery session

I don't doubt they have people in camp as they got every selection correct. Makes for tough reading. I think this will drag on with reviews to be done. Think it's the end of the road for Hogg as captain.
If that is true then Townsend should walk. That makes him sound so weak.

Johnson flat out ignored him and was still picked and they released Hastings amd Thompson both who could have benched ahead of Russell. He had already discarded Johnson very easily earlier in the 6N.
Jock42
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 am This Thistle in their newsletter suggesting what happened was:

While the events of Saturday evening (and Sunday morning) are not entirely clear, and not just due to the strength of a Why Not jaeger bomb, we know from the SRU that Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were all disciplined for breaching team protocols after their Six Nations victory over Italy. While the Murrayfield media machine provided few details beyond this, the Thistle spies tell us that the following is rumoured to have taken place:

The players were told they were allowed a few drinks on the plane back from Rome to celebrate Ali Price’s 50th cap , but to leave it at that, with a recovery day planned for the Sunday

The six players mentioned decided to carry on the night out after landing in Edinburgh, despite the warnings of some back room staff members, and made their way to fabled George Street institution Why Not

Gregor Townsend somehow found out about the illicit night out (perhaps he had his suspicions and was surveying the Why Not Facebook page…), rang Hogg and ordered the players back to the hotel within thirty minutes, otherwise they would be dropped for the Ireland match

Some of the players obeyed the instruction (including Hoggy) but others such as Russell and Johnson carried on with their night

We understand that although Johnson returned to the hotel at c.4am, Russell instead went to his parents house in Stirlingshire, and failed to attend the next day’s recovery session

I don't doubt they have people in camp as they got every selection correct. Makes for tough reading. I think this will drag on with reviews to be done. Think it's the end of the road for Hogg as captain.
Was just about to post this. I hadn't realised that Johnson stayed out. The more I read on it the more pissed off I am with these players.

It's somewhat reassuring to read the rest of the squad are annoyed with them. Perhaps any potential rift with Townsend isn't as deep or widespread as we think - not empirical evidence I admit - but, for me, the opportunity to drop the 6, or at least Hogg and Russell should have been taken. The 2 I've mentioned won't be on the summer tour and probably wouldn't have been anyway which allows the passing of the captaincy to pass unnoticed. Now I'm not suggesting that Hogg is beasted in front of the public (no matter how much I'm starting to dislike him) but it cements the weakness Townsend is displaying.
Jock42
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Big D wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:52 am
If that is true then Townsend should walk. That makes him sound so weak.

Johnson flat out ignored him and was still picked and they released Hastings amd Thompson both who could have benched ahead of Russell. He had already discarded Johnson very easily earlier in the 6N.
Which points further to his weakness. I can understand why Johnson would think "fuck it" and head out with the way he's been dropped and brought back in but I don't see a way to recover this for Townsend.
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Tichtheid
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Re the last World Cup, for context on our loss to Japan, they won four from four at the pool stage, including beating Ireland. They lost in the QF to the eventual tournament winners in South Africa.

My memory of the Japan game is that it was good one played at astonishing pace, with Japan scoring with some beautiful rugby and us getting back into the game with some good stuff of our own, only for the clock to go before we had time to tie the match.

Our performance against Ireland was rotten.
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Tichtheid
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Jock42 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:04 am
Big D wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:52 am
If that is true then Townsend should walk. That makes him sound so weak.

Johnson flat out ignored him and was still picked and they released Hastings amd Thompson both who could have benched ahead of Russell. He had already discarded Johnson very easily earlier in the 6N.
Which points further to his weakness. I can understand why Johnson would think "fuck it" and head out with the way he's been dropped and brought back in but I don't see a way to recover this for Townsend.

To be honest I'm not interested in any players who think they are bigger than the team.

I can sort of excuse Darcy Graham, I think he'd follow Hoggy off a bridge and at least they came back, if those stories are correct.
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Tichtheid
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Ha!

I've just had a look at the website for the Why Not venue. It looks like hell to me, the absolute last place I'd want to go.

The clientele look younger than my children.

I know I'm not their target market btw, but fuck that.
Jock42
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:07 am
Jock42 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:04 am
Big D wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:52 am
If that is true then Townsend should walk. That makes him sound so weak.

Johnson flat out ignored him and was still picked and they released Hastings amd Thompson both who could have benched ahead of Russell. He had already discarded Johnson very easily earlier in the 6N.
Which points further to his weakness. I can understand why Johnson would think "fuck it" and head out with the way he's been dropped and brought back in but I don't see a way to recover this for Townsend.

To be honest I'm not interested in any players who think they are bigger than the team.

I can sort of excuse Darcy Graham, I think he'd follow Hoggy off a bridge and at least they came back, if those stories are correct.
I don't think anyone is.
Slick
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That's pretty much what was said on the audio I heard over the weekend, with added stuff like the team manager strongly suggesting they don't get in the taxi.

It has been managed disastrously badly, did they really think it wouldn't get out? I had folk telling me about Finn on Sunday afternoon FFS. I do think GT's hand would have been strengthened if he had come out and said this happened and I've no other option but to drop the players and you'll just have to accept the result.

In saying that, I imagine he was under massive pressure from the blazers to keep this quiet and still try for the 3rd place - this is a major part of the problem with should he go, we take all these things in isolation when it's actually part of a huge process.
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I like neeps
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:05 am Re the last World Cup, for context on our loss to Japan, they won four from four at the pool stage, including beating Ireland. They lost in the QF to the eventual tournament winners in South Africa.

My memory of the Japan game is that it was good one played at astonishing pace, with Japan scoring with some beautiful rugby and us getting back into the game with some good stuff of our own, only for the clock to go before we had time to tie the match.

Our performance against Ireland was rotten.
Aye agree the failure isn't to beat Japan. It's to completely no show Vs a very beatable Ireland team.
Big D
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:07 am
Jock42 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:04 am
Big D wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:52 am
If that is true then Townsend should walk. That makes him sound so weak.

Johnson flat out ignored him and was still picked and they released Hastings amd Thompson both who could have benched ahead of Russell. He had already discarded Johnson very easily earlier in the 6N.
Which points further to his weakness. I can understand why Johnson would think "fuck it" and head out with the way he's been dropped and brought back in but I don't see a way to recover this for Townsend.

To be honest I'm not interested in any players who think they are bigger than the team.

I can sort of excuse Darcy Graham, I think he'd follow Hoggy off a bridge and at least they came back, if those stories are correct.
Darcy Graham is a 25-27 cap international and 24 years old, he isn't a wee laddie. They 4 are as bad as each other.
Last edited by Big D on Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big D
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:28 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:05 am Re the last World Cup, for context on our loss to Japan, they won four from four at the pool stage, including beating Ireland. They lost in the QF to the eventual tournament winners in South Africa.

My memory of the Japan game is that it was good one played at astonishing pace, with Japan scoring with some beautiful rugby and us getting back into the game with some good stuff of our own, only for the clock to go before we had time to tie the match.

Our performance against Ireland was rotten.
Aye agree the failure isn't to beat Japan. It's to completely no show Vs a very beatable Ireland team.
The failure at the world cup was the really poor preparation. Losing games are palatable if the team is prepared correctly and put a performance in. Throughout the warm ups they were leggy and cumbersome as noted in the other place at the time, and it rolled straight into the Ireland game (and from memory the last 25min the Japan).

Coming off a 1 win six nations in 2019 it would not have been unfair for the SRU to sack him at that point if that is the way the SRU wanted to go. And from memory, there are a decent minority of fans who would have sorted that.
Last edited by Big D on Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
weegie01
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 am This Thistle in their newsletter suggesting what happened was:

While the events of Saturday evening (and Sunday morning) are not entirely clear, and not just due to the strength of a Why Not jaeger bomb, we know from the SRU that Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were all disciplined for breaching team protocols after their Six Nations victory over Italy. While the Murrayfield media machine provided few details beyond this, the Thistle spies tell us that the following is rumoured to have taken place:

The players were told they were allowed a few drinks on the plane back from Rome to celebrate Ali Price’s 50th cap , but to leave it at that, with a recovery day planned for the Sunday

The six players mentioned decided to carry on the night out after landing in Edinburgh, despite the warnings of some back room staff members, and made their way to fabled George Street institution Why Not

Gregor Townsend somehow found out about the illicit night out (perhaps he had his suspicions and was surveying the Why Not Facebook page…), rang Hogg and ordered the players back to the hotel within thirty minutes, otherwise they would be dropped for the Ireland match

Some of the players obeyed the instruction (including Hoggy) but others such as Russell and Johnson carried on with their night

We understand that although Johnson returned to the hotel at c.4am, Russell instead went to his parents house in Stirlingshire, and failed to attend the next day’s recovery session

I don't doubt they have people in camp as they got every selection correct. Makes for tough reading. I think this will drag on with reviews to be done. Think it's the end of the road for Hogg as captain.
Not quite correct. The six named players plus others were heading out on the town. Some pulled out when the team manager said this was a bad idea.

Russell and Johnstone were not the only ones who were out till 4am. Russell did go back to the hotel, then went to his parents early next day and missed the recovery session.

Whoever did what when, there are clearly three groups.
- the group who were heading out and backed out when asked to do so
- the group who returned when Townsend lost the plot over the phone
- the group that stayed out.

So there is a larger group of players than those disciplined who thought going out was a good idea. That suggests a wider issue.

The first group backed out when warned once, the second when warned twice, and the third not at all. What seems really odd is that the second and third groups appear to have had the same repercussions. The punishment has to be seen to fit the crime and in this case does not appear to.
Big D
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weegie01 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:49 pm
I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 am This Thistle in their newsletter suggesting what happened was:

While the events of Saturday evening (and Sunday morning) are not entirely clear, and not just due to the strength of a Why Not jaeger bomb, we know from the SRU that Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were all disciplined for breaching team protocols after their Six Nations victory over Italy. While the Murrayfield media machine provided few details beyond this, the Thistle spies tell us that the following is rumoured to have taken place:

The players were told they were allowed a few drinks on the plane back from Rome to celebrate Ali Price’s 50th cap , but to leave it at that, with a recovery day planned for the Sunday

The six players mentioned decided to carry on the night out after landing in Edinburgh, despite the warnings of some back room staff members, and made their way to fabled George Street institution Why Not

Gregor Townsend somehow found out about the illicit night out (perhaps he had his suspicions and was surveying the Why Not Facebook page…), rang Hogg and ordered the players back to the hotel within thirty minutes, otherwise they would be dropped for the Ireland match

Some of the players obeyed the instruction (including Hoggy) but others such as Russell and Johnson carried on with their night

We understand that although Johnson returned to the hotel at c.4am, Russell instead went to his parents house in Stirlingshire, and failed to attend the next day’s recovery session

I don't doubt they have people in camp as they got every selection correct. Makes for tough reading. I think this will drag on with reviews to be done. Think it's the end of the road for Hogg as captain.
Not quite correct. The six named players plus others were heading out on the town. Some pulled out when the team manager said this was a bad idea.

Russell and Johnstone were not the only ones who were out till 4am. Russell did go back to the hotel, then went to his parents early next day and missed the recovery session.

Whoever did what when, there are clearly three groups.
- the group who were heading out and backed out when asked to do so
- the group who returned when Townsend lost the plot over the phone
- the group that stayed out.

So there is a larger group of players than those disciplined who thought going out was a good idea. That suggests a wider issue.

The first group backed out when warned once, the second when warned twice, and the third not at all. What seems really odd is that the second and third groups appear to have had the same repercussions. The punishment has to be seen to fit the crime and in this case does not appear to.
Makes sense, I did wonder how he got from George Street to Stirlingshire at that time of the morning. Expensive taxi or waking a family member up.
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Yr Alban
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The sad truth is that the coach always carries the can. Toony is responsible for squad discipline, for performances, and for results. None of them are up to scratch and I’m afraid that is on him.

Maybe he can’t prevent players from breaking curfew and going out on the lash. But firstly, the players clearly neither respect nor fear him enough not to do so, which is a big problem in itself. Secondly (which may follow from this) his response has been anaemic. The punishment should have been draconian. Russell and Johnson should have been dismissed from camp, the others dropped from the XV if not from the squad altogether. Hang the result, we were losing anyway. Either way, I think Toony is goosed.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
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Yr Alban wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:53 pm The sad truth is that the coach always carries the can. Toony is responsible for squad discipline, for performances, and for results. None of them are up to scratch and I’m afraid that is on him.

Maybe he can’t prevent players from breaking curfew and going out on the lash. But firstly, the players clearly neither respect nor fear him enough not to do so, which is a big problem in itself. Secondly (which may follow from this) his response has been anaemic. The punishment should have been draconian. Russell and Johnson should have been dismissed from camp, the others dropped from the XV if not from the squad altogether. Hang the result, we were losing anyway. Either way, I think Toony is goosed.
How is he going to enforce discipline now?

It is good to read some in the squad are angry at those who went out. But three of them are the leadership group. If you have a squad angry at the leadership group... It's so ugly. What a mess.
Biffer
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Big D wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:52 pm
weegie01 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:49 pm
I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 am This Thistle in their newsletter suggesting what happened was:

While the events of Saturday evening (and Sunday morning) are not entirely clear, and not just due to the strength of a Why Not jaeger bomb, we know from the SRU that Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were all disciplined for breaching team protocols after their Six Nations victory over Italy. While the Murrayfield media machine provided few details beyond this, the Thistle spies tell us that the following is rumoured to have taken place:

The players were told they were allowed a few drinks on the plane back from Rome to celebrate Ali Price’s 50th cap , but to leave it at that, with a recovery day planned for the Sunday

The six players mentioned decided to carry on the night out after landing in Edinburgh, despite the warnings of some back room staff members, and made their way to fabled George Street institution Why Not

Gregor Townsend somehow found out about the illicit night out (perhaps he had his suspicions and was surveying the Why Not Facebook page…), rang Hogg and ordered the players back to the hotel within thirty minutes, otherwise they would be dropped for the Ireland match

Some of the players obeyed the instruction (including Hoggy) but others such as Russell and Johnson carried on with their night

We understand that although Johnson returned to the hotel at c.4am, Russell instead went to his parents house in Stirlingshire, and failed to attend the next day’s recovery session

I don't doubt they have people in camp as they got every selection correct. Makes for tough reading. I think this will drag on with reviews to be done. Think it's the end of the road for Hogg as captain.
Not quite correct. The six named players plus others were heading out on the town. Some pulled out when the team manager said this was a bad idea.

Russell and Johnstone were not the only ones who were out till 4am. Russell did go back to the hotel, then went to his parents early next day and missed the recovery session.

Whoever did what when, there are clearly three groups.
- the group who were heading out and backed out when asked to do so
- the group who returned when Townsend lost the plot over the phone
- the group that stayed out.

So there is a larger group of players than those disciplined who thought going out was a good idea. That suggests a wider issue.

The first group backed out when warned once, the second when warned twice, and the third not at all. What seems really odd is that the second and third groups appear to have had the same repercussions. The punishment has to be seen to fit the crime and in this case does not appear to.
Makes sense, I did wonder how he got from George Street to Stirlingshire at that time of the morning. Expensive taxi or waking a family member up.
He's on 700k. A £150 taxi isn't a problem.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
westport
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Never been a Toony fan, even as a player, as he was just like what Finn is now - 10 minutes brilliant, 70 minutes a nightmare.

When I was TJ/AR doing the Bord/Edin & Glas pro games we always chatted to the coaches/coaching staff of both teams afterwards and discussed the game. When Toony took over he never once spoke to us after the game.

Personally I have always found him to be an arrogant tosser as a player and a coach.
robmatic
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:32 pm
Yr Alban wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:53 pm The sad truth is that the coach always carries the can. Toony is responsible for squad discipline, for performances, and for results. None of them are up to scratch and I’m afraid that is on him.

Maybe he can’t prevent players from breaking curfew and going out on the lash. But firstly, the players clearly neither respect nor fear him enough not to do so, which is a big problem in itself. Secondly (which may follow from this) his response has been anaemic. The punishment should have been draconian. Russell and Johnson should have been dismissed from camp, the others dropped from the XV if not from the squad altogether. Hang the result, we were losing anyway. Either way, I think Toony is goosed.
How is he going to enforce discipline now?

It is good to read some in the squad are angry at those who went out. But three of them are the leadership group. If you have a squad angry at the leadership group... It's so ugly. What a mess.
Something is obviously not right in camp and it hasn't been helped by some of Toony's 'quirky' decisions. Johnson is at the 'fuck it' stage after being randomly dropped and Russell should obviously have been dropped but wasn't as the capable replacement in Hastings has been frozen out.
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Yr Alban
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westport wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:49 pm Never been a Toony fan, even as a player, as he was just like what Finn is now - 10 minutes brilliant, 70 minutes a nightmare.

When I was TJ/AR doing the Bord/Edin & Glas pro games we always chatted to the coaches/coaching staff of both teams afterwards and discussed the game. When Toony took over he never once spoke to us after the game.

Personally I have always found him to be an arrogant tosser as a player and a coach.
Re: your last sentence, I’ve never met him, but I have heard similar from those who have. (It wasn’t her who said it, but I went to med school with a girl who dated him at high school. She is also Geoff Cross’s sister, which maybe illustrates how small a world Scottish rugby is!)
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Slick
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robmatic wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:01 pm
I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:32 pm
Yr Alban wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:53 pm The sad truth is that the coach always carries the can. Toony is responsible for squad discipline, for performances, and for results. None of them are up to scratch and I’m afraid that is on him.

Maybe he can’t prevent players from breaking curfew and going out on the lash. But firstly, the players clearly neither respect nor fear him enough not to do so, which is a big problem in itself. Secondly (which may follow from this) his response has been anaemic. The punishment should have been draconian. Russell and Johnson should have been dismissed from camp, the others dropped from the XV if not from the squad altogether. Hang the result, we were losing anyway. Either way, I think Toony is goosed.
How is he going to enforce discipline now?

It is good to read some in the squad are angry at those who went out. But three of them are the leadership group. If you have a squad angry at the leadership group... It's so ugly. What a mess.
Something is obviously not right in camp and it hasn't been helped by some of Toony's 'quirky' decisions. Johnson is at the 'fuck it' stage after being randomly dropped and Russell should obviously have been dropped but wasn't as the capable replacement in Hastings has been frozen out.
I did wonder if Johnson getting dropped was for disciplinary reasons previously, just seemed so odd
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LenCohen
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westport wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:49 pm Never been a Toony fan, even as a player, as he was just like what Finn is now - 10 minutes brilliant, 70 minutes a nightmare.

When I was TJ/AR doing the Bord/Edin & Glas pro games we always chatted to the coaches/coaching staff of both teams afterwards and discussed the game. When Toony took over he never once spoke to us after the game.

Personally I have always found him to be an arrogant tosser as a player and a coach.
Nah he's a nice guy. Maybe just doesn't like referees
Dogbert
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So what even half decent coach would want to get involved with a bunch of over rated bunch of Players , who seem to think they have the power to ignore what seems a pretty reasonable request to not go on the lash during an ongoing tournament.

Not like they were really ripping it up on the pitch anyway. Their supposed to be Professional sportsman ,in what way could anyone describe what they did as 'professional'

Its utterly pathetic. what other International Rugby Team would accept such behaviour.

If I was a potentially looking at managing an International Rugby Team ( I'm not ) the last Team I would look at is Scotland

I can see both England and Wales looking for a new coach sometime in the near future , both those jobs would be much more attractive

What if the Players don't like the new coach , are we going to get another example "Player Power"

Would not touch this current group of arseholes with a fucking bargepole
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I like neeps
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Dogbert wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:02 pm So what even half decent coach would want to get involved with a bunch of over rated bunch of Players , who seem to think they have the power to ignore what seems a pretty reasonable request to not go on the lash during an ongoing tournament.

Not like they were really ripping it up on the pitch anyway. Their supposed to be Professional sportsman ,in what way could anyone describe what they did as 'professional'

Its utterly pathetic. what other International Rugby Team would accept such behaviour.

If I was a potentially looking at managing an International Rugby Team ( I'm not ) the last Team I would look at is Scotland

I can see both England and Wales looking for a new coach sometime in the near future , both those jobs would be much more attractive

What if the Players don't like the new coach , are we going to get another example "Player Power"

Would not touch this current group of arseholes with a fucking bargepole
Talking about player power, out of interest, how did you feel about the Edinburgh players getting Cockers out by complaining to the SRU about his training methods and tactics?
Dogbert
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I like neeps wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:49 pm
Dogbert wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:02 pm So what even half decent coach would want to get involved with a bunch of over rated bunch of Players , who seem to think they have the power to ignore what seems a pretty reasonable request to not go on the lash during an ongoing tournament.

Not like they were really ripping it up on the pitch anyway. Their supposed to be Professional sportsman ,in what way could anyone describe what they did as 'professional'

Its utterly pathetic. what other International Rugby Team would accept such behaviour.

If I was a potentially looking at managing an International Rugby Team ( I'm not ) the last Team I would look at is Scotland

I can see both England and Wales looking for a new coach sometime in the near future , both those jobs would be much more attractive

What if the Players don't like the new coach , are we going to get another example "Player Power"

Would not touch this current group of arseholes with a fucking bargepole
Talking about player power, out of interest, how did you feel about the Edinburgh players getting Cockers out by complaining to the SRU about his training methods and tactics?
Being a Glasgow Supporter fairly ambivalent to be honest, but the SRU should have stepped in well before the players revolted . but its not really equivalent.

If the Scotland Players have an issue, then going to the coach/ coaching Team / SRU to put forward point of view is fine -and In the Edinburgh case the SRU backed the players

Going out on the piss , during a tournament against the management Teams advise, and then whining about the press giving you a hard time - as part of the so called leadership team - Jesus there's an example to set. - That's not about training and tactics issues - that just unprofessional - you have to walk the walk , as well as talk the talk - Back to Telfers example of being an Honest player

There was plenty of time after the tournament to go out and get hammered

We seem to have players who think that we are still in the amateur days - no wonder we don't back up wins - to quote Tichtheid - "This is not the kick the cup aboot Princes Street, pished, era any more" - but it seems some of our Billy Big Bollocks players seem to think it is , and they get away with it.

Changing the Head coach might change things around . and no doubt Townsend has been damaged by this , mainly for not taking more decisive action - but I can see why at that point in the tournament he didn't

But make no mistake - it was much more the players letting Townsend down than the other way around

And we wonder why we don't back up wins

Professionals behaving like amateurs ( Rant Over )
Lager & Lime - we don't do cocktails
Scottish Caley Fan
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I'm a big fan of Townsend and have stated on here that I am not calling for a sacking but I'm getting increasingly fearful that he will because, a) journalists (first Rob Robertson, now Neil Drysdale of the Press and Journal) are calling for his head as well as some fans, no pundit has had a say yet apart from Rory Lawson on yesterday's Reporting Scotland backing him and, b) the SRU haven't put out a statement backing him.

I get the argument that he can't really survive all this controversy, it's got the same feel as Cockers departure from Edinburgh :( :( :(.

I'm very surprised GT categorically said no when asked if he would ponder resignation because no one would blame if he did ponder his future.

As I said either on here or the 606v2 forum, it's going to be interesting to see what comes out of the tournament review etc, or if anything gets leaked via the papers regarding futures of coach and captain.

July can't come quick enough lol.
weegie01
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A full page by Alasdair Reid in the Times calling for Dodson to go now.

Apparently Super 6 has failed, everything good that has happened in his tenure has been due to someone else (e.g. debt reduction) if he had just done what the clubs asked everything would be fine.

Apart from that, a sensible well balanced article.
robmatic
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weegie01 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:56 am A full page by Alasdair Reid in the Times calling for Dodson to go now.

Apparently Super 6 has failed, everything good that has happened in his tenure has been due to someone else (e.g. debt reduction) if he had just done what the clubs asked everything would be fine.

Apart from that, a sensible well balanced article.
Sounds like something from the Offside Line blog.
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Tichtheid
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I'll probably regret it, but does anyone have a sub for the Times who could C&P the article, plz?

The clubs have been asking for the end of rugby outside the private schools in Scotland, but are too stupid to realise it. The comments in TOL blogs have been about redirecting mony from the pro teams to the clubs, scrap the S6 and let the clubs run the game, after all they "own the SRU"

For a minute, just suppose this happens and the current clubs get this year's revenues from the SRU - tv money from the URC immediately disappears, as does the income from the Heineken Cup and Challenge trophy. Sponsorship, including the CVC cash leaves with it.

With no URC level professional teams, what would laughingly be called the Top Clubs in Scotland would be bringing crowds numbered in their dozens, the current cop of pros would leave for English and French clubs if they could get a gig. Give it five to seven years and Scotland will be getting pumped rotten by tier 2 sides in the AIs, we'd be targeting our home game against Italy for our one chance of keeping the score down to a twenty point difference in the 6N, so leading to dwindling crowds at Murrayfield, just like ten to fifteen years ago only much much worse. New Zealand, Oz and South Africa wouldn't play us in the AIs what would be the point? They don't play Tier 2 teams very often at all and we would definitely be that.
No income from internationals eventually means no money for the clubs.

The public schools would still play each other and their FP teams might carry on as they did back the amateur days, but that's about it.
robmatic
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:04 am
The public schools would still play each other and their FP teams might carry on as they did back the amateur days, but that's about it.
That's the most important thing, surely.

TBH I don't really get the Scottish club mentality as seen on the Offside Line etc. It's like the last 25 years never happened for some folk.
KingBlairhorn
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robmatic wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:17 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:04 am
The public schools would still play each other and their FP teams might carry on as they did back the amateur days, but that's about it.
That's the most important thing, surely.

TBH I don't really get the Scottish club mentality as seen on the Offside Line etc. It's like the last 25 years never happened for some folk.
I 100% agree with you both. It beggars belief that the same small number of people/clubs (because it definitely isn't all of them) who caused our transition to professionalism to be such a mess in the first place are still advocating for the same things now. Whilst the clubs do a huge amount of great work, after all its where all the players start out, the hubris to believe they could run a multi-million pound high profile organisation more successfully than professional sports administrators is baffling. Why professional journalists at broadsheet newspapers think the views of these people deserve not just to be aired, but to be aired without challenge, criticism or reference to previous events is appropriate I do not know.

The SRU definitely get a lot wrong but they have also got a lot right. They have largely cleared out the blazers from Murrayfield, established two reasonably successful professional teams, launched a semi-professional league, supported a moderately successful sevens programme, produced a passable pathway, and started the job (albeit slowly) of professionalising the women's game. They need to do much more, including keeping executive pay under control, improving governance, improving the pathways and of course finding a way to support more professional players in the country both male and female. There is zero chance in my mind, zero chance, that any of this would have been achieved under a committee of club chairmen and there is zero chance a committee system (or whatever the clubs are proposing) would in any way improve on any of the current weaknesses.

Finally, since it seems its the Super6 that has their knickers in a twist this time, it shouldn't be forgotten that the clubs overwhelmingly voted not to scrap the Super6 fewer than 6 months ago due to the clear success of the first full year.
Biffer
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KingBlairhorn wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:12 pm
robmatic wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:17 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:04 am
The public schools would still play each other and their FP teams might carry on as they did back the amateur days, but that's about it.
That's the most important thing, surely.

TBH I don't really get the Scottish club mentality as seen on the Offside Line etc. It's like the last 25 years never happened for some folk.
I 100% agree with you both. It beggars belief that the same small number of people/clubs (because it definitely isn't all of them) who caused our transition to professionalism to be such a mess in the first place are still advocating for the same things now. Whilst the clubs do a huge amount of great work, after all its where all the players start out, the hubris to believe they could run a multi-million pound high profile organisation more successfully than professional sports administrators is baffling. Why professional journalists at broadsheet newspapers think the views of these people deserve not just to be aired, but to be aired without challenge, criticism or reference to previous events is appropriate I do not know.

The SRU definitely get a lot wrong but they have also got a lot right. They have largely cleared out the blazers from Murrayfield, established two reasonably successful professional teams, launched a semi-professional league, supported a moderately successful sevens programme, produced a passable pathway, and started the job (albeit slowly) of professionalising the women's game. They need to do much more, including keeping executive pay under control, improving governance, improving the pathways and of course finding a way to support more professional players in the country both male and female. There is zero chance in my mind, zero chance, that any of this would have been achieved under a committee of club chairmen and there is zero chance a committee system (or whatever the clubs are proposing) would in any way improve on any of the current weaknesses.

Finally, since it seems its the Super6 that has their knickers in a twist this time, it shouldn't be forgotten that the clubs overwhelmingly voted not to scrap the Super6 fewer than 6 months ago due to the clear success of the first full year.
Also worth highlighting that had we tried to go down the professional clubs route, several of them would likely have gone bankrupt and no longer exist.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Achahoish
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:04 am I'll probably regret it, but does anyone have a sub for the Times who could C&P the article, plz?

The clubs have been asking for the end of rugby outside the private schools in Scotland, but are too stupid to realise it. The comments in TOL blogs have been about redirecting mony from the pro teams to the clubs, scrap the S6 and let the clubs run the game, after all they "own the SRU"

For a minute, just suppose this happens and the current clubs get this year's revenues from the SRU - tv money from the URC immediately disappears, as does the income from the Heineken Cup and Challenge trophy. Sponsorship, including the CVC cash leaves with it.

With no URC level professional teams, what would laughingly be called the Top Clubs in Scotland would be bringing crowds numbered in their dozens, the current cop of pros would leave for English and French clubs if they could get a gig. Give it five to seven years and Scotland will be getting pumped rotten by tier 2 sides in the AIs, we'd be targeting our home game against Italy for our one chance of keeping the score down to a twenty point difference in the 6N, so leading to dwindling crowds at Murrayfield, just like ten to fifteen years ago only much much worse. New Zealand, Oz and South Africa wouldn't play us in the AIs what would be the point? They don't play Tier 2 teams very often at all and we would definitely be that.
No income from internationals eventually means no money for the clubs.

The public schools would still play each other and their FP teams might carry on as they did back the amateur days, but that's about it.
While some beastly types voiced outrage a couple of years ago when it emerged that Mark Dodson, the chief executive of the Scottish Rugby Union, had trousered the thick end of £1 million by way of salary and benefits in the previous financial year, I took the view that a more measured and analytical approach was needed. What, I wondered, would he have made for himself if there was a single shred of evidence that he had actually improved anything during his time in charge?

For even then it was crystal clear that the sport in these parts was standing still — and that the only likely trajectory was rapid decline. And so it has proved as the national team, beset by the scandal of an illicit boozing episode, has just been crushed by Ireland, the under-20s have suffered a second successive Six Nations whitewash, the professional sides rely ever more heavily on second-rate imports and historic and formerly well-supported clubs struggle to put out second XVs.

Under the present administration, Scottish rugby is failing on every front. The SRU can pump out as many cheesy Twitter posts or happy-clappy videos as it likes, but a more blatant example of turd-polishing would be hard to imagine. Those great lines of Burns spring to mind. “Facts are chiels that winna ding, An’ downa be disputed” — but it only adds to the sense of despair to realise that so many at Murrayfield today would not have the beginnings of a clue what they actually meant.

What modest successes there have been over the past decade — Glasgow lifting the Pro12 title in 2015, full houses at Murrayfield matches — owe more (a) to the emergence and recruitment of a crop of decently talented players, and (b) the ticketing strategy outlined by former SRU chairman, Sir Moir Lockhead, before Dodson was in post. And while the once-scary level of debt has been reduced, it has been helped by broadcasting deals negotiated by others and was already heading downwards thanks to policies introduced by Gordon McKie, the previous chief executive.

While leadership of a sporting organisation is no place for life’s shrinking violets, Dodson has reached almost Johnsonian levels of bullishness and chutzpah in his actions and utterances. Remember his 2012 claim that Scotland would win the World Cup three years later? The intemperate sacking of Keith Russell, an episode that led to humiliation in an employment tribunal and a bill likely to have been in the region of £250,000? The ill-timed and ill-advised outburst at the 2019 World Cup that landed the union with a disrepute charge and a £70,000 fine?

And, of course, the Super6 tournament that was created to bridge the gap between the amateur and professional games to battle-harden young players and get them ready to go up against their counterparts from other nations? The success of that venture can be measured not just by the fact the under-20s were slaughtered 59-5 by Ireland on Sunday, but by the fact that the scale of the humiliation was so wearily predictable given that so many of those young Scots had played next to no rugby over the past few months.

On the eve of the Women’s Six Nations — Scotland get their campaign under way against England at the DAM Health Stadium on Saturday — it is worth reflecting on how things have gone in that area as well. Over the course of the past ten seasons, Scotland have played 45 games in the tournament and won just three, a success rate of precisely 6.66 per cent, with none of those victories having come in the past three years. Most countries acknowledge the importance of the women’s game in terms of growing the sport as a whole and have policies to suit; Scotland does too, but only with vague platitudes and woolly statements about devising strategies and policies and pathways.


Meanwhile, the schools and youth system remains a disaster area. Some years before Dodson took office, Scottish clubs voted overwhelmingly for those two critical arms of the game to have an integrated competitive structure. It was there in his in-tray when he stepped into the job in September 2011 and it is presumably still there as it certainly hasn’t happened at any meaningful level. Yes, there was some tinkering a few years back, but the outcome was not remotely close to what the clubs wanted.

As a result, the elite level of rugby in that age group has become the preserve of a tiny handful of fee-paying schools — specifically those that plunder the state sector for its best players by handing out scholarships. No state establishment has won the senior Scottish Schools Cup since Bell Baxter lifted the trophy in 2007. It is a desperately unhealthy situation but there is no apparent will within Murrayfield to change it. Aside from anything else, it emboldens those who, probably on account of their own insecurities, want to paint rugby as the exclusive pastime of the posh.

Harry S Truman was not the most enigmatic of US presidents, but he did reinforce an important principle of leadership with that famous sign on his desk that read: “The buck stops here”. Would that Dodson had taken that on board when the Russell affair revealed the toxic culture of the organisation he led, one in which former employees were routinely bought off with gagging clauses.

Instead, he and the nodding donkeys of his inner circle embarked on a series of management reviews, a disgraceful attempt to deflect attention from personal failings by suggesting the problems were systemic. Yet the system in place had been devised by Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the former Lord Chancellor, and refined by Sheriff Bill Dunlop, an eminent judge who had deep roots in the game. Did Dodson really feel that he and his cronies could do better?

Dodson is not without talents and qualities. He is affable company, a persuasive communicator and a man who is driven to finish the job when he gets the bit between his teeth. That can be a virtue, but only if you are driving in the right direction. At the moment, Scottish rugby is on the road to nowhere, a path to continuous decline.

One of the strangest elements of the Russell affair was that Dodson was handed a five-year contract extension in the midst of it. That expires next year, when he will have been in the job for 12 years and will be 63 years old. The reigns of Dodson’s three predecessors —Bill Watson, Phil Anderton and McKie — all came to messy ends. If he wants to avoid that fate himself he would be best advised to get out on his own terms before the clamour for his departure becomes deafening.

Hope this helps
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Tichtheid
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Thanks, Achahoish.

There is obviously personal animosity there, it just reads as an unprofessional attack piece.
KingBlairhorn
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:59 pm Thanks, Achahoish.

There is obviously personal animosity there, it just reads as an unprofessional attack piece.
I’m not even going to bother reading it as I know it will be full of shite.
Big D
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Anyone mentioning that Bell Baxter team as some great repeatable state school triumph lacks an understanding of how that came about. Not suggesting the author said it was repeatable.

It was a triumph but far from repeatable. They were trained form about 10-11 years old in S&C, trained with school and pretty much the same group with their club (Howe of Fife). So training several times a week together and playing a lot or rugny at the weekend. It was a well developed operation that caught lightning in a bottle. It took a lot of work and the vast majority of schools and clubs could not recreate that.

Some of you more knowledgeable chaps on school rugby will correct me if I'm wrong but before Bell Baxter it was Marr College and Gala academy in the late 80s to mid 90s that had any wins at U18s. Gala Academy and North Berwick have had a win or two at 16s. But there really hasn't been many wins for state schools in the last 35 years.

I read the dig about scholarships and wondered what planet the author was on. Many state schools don't have teams, teachers are under ever increasing stress and there aren't the army of English, physics, computing etc teachers taking extra curricular sporting activities, PE teachers don't teach rugby during PE lessons as often and clubs/the SRU have been trying to help rugby in the schools but it is the equivalent of pissing into a game force wind at times. Based on that, of course private schools are hoovering up talent but even if state schools were anywhere near being competitive why wouldn't a talented 16/17 year old head to Strathallan or Glen Almond if in North Fife/Tayside or any one ot the Edinburgh schools/Dollar if in Fife/Stirling/Edinburgh.
KingBlairhorn
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the SRU should be looking at performance schools. There is no way to fund comprehensive enough rugby programmes across Scotland in enough state schools that will have any demonstrable impact on player development. There is though the chance to pick one school in each population centre and run intensive development programmes in those for the very best state school rugby players. One in Edinburgh, one in Glasgow, one in Aberdeen, one in Dundee, one in Inverness and maybe one in the borders. An intake of c.30 boys and girls each year, extra training before and after school, nutrition advice, S&C programmes and so on. Much of it can probably be delivered by existing SRU resources. I’d be surprised if you couldn’t do a programme across the whole of Scotland for less than a million per year. You could also put them into competition against the private schools if they prove good enough, which I am sure they would.
Biffer
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Brilliant win for Edinburgh
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:57 pm Brilliant win for Edinburgh
Watched the 1st half then had to pop out - wasn’t expecting that when I got back!
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Tichtheid
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I haven’t seen it yet, but ya fuckin dancer!
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