So, coronavirus...

[dpedin]

the doubts around vaccination stuff does all go back to the MMR stuff and Andrew Wakefield. That's where it kicked in in modern times.

Always worth remembering he was paid £400,000 to diss the MMR jab by lawyers acting for a single dose measles jab.

Aye, I get fucking angry every time that prick's name comes up.

Agree! Due to covid plus all the anti-vax misinformation we are seeing significant drop in school vaccinations uptake. Gov reporting that uptake in England for either 1st or 2nd MMR vaccination in kids has fallen below 90% for the first time in many years. See link below. This is below the 95% levels recommended by WHO to maintain herd immunity and avoid community transmission. This puts a lot of kids at risk and is a worry!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/arou ... of-measles

[Tichtheid]

the doubts around vaccination stuff does all go back to the MMR stuff and Andrew Wakefield. That's where it kicked in in modern times.

Always worth remembering he was paid £400,000 to diss the MMR jab by lawyers acting for a single dose measles jab.

Aye, I get fucking angry every time that prick's name comes up.

Agree! Due to covid plus all the anti-vax misinformation we are seeing significant drop in school vaccinations uptake. Gov reporting that uptake in England for either 1st or 2nd MMR vaccination in kids has fallen below 90% for the first time in many years. See link below. This is below the 95% levels recommended by WHO to maintain herd immunity and avoid community transmission. This puts a lot of kids at risk and is a worry!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/arou ... of-measles

It's unbelievable, or would be if the fuckwittery wasn't so prominent on social media

I knew a couple who were otherwise sensible but wouldn't vaccinate their children, they wouldn't even vaccinate their dogs, and of course their two puppies died of parvovirus.

[Biffer]

I've read alarmist reactions about mRNA vaccines, I don't really know what the problem is because I don't have the time to educate myself on this.
I accept that vaccines are safe and that the "ten years from test tube to pharmacy" is attenuated by modern processes.

I was just curious.

Not sure how much is attenuated by modern processes and instead it's more a case of COVID being a suitable opportunity to fully mature certain vaccine techs and also isn't a lot of the ten years waiting for enough people to be infected with the disease to prove efficacy so not a problem with COVID.

Quite often the delays in developing and launching a vaccine are also down to funding for research programmes, although many folk think the mRNA for covid vaccines were 'new' they were essentially building on years of research and development across the world. When covid came along then money was forthcoming from Govs and some private sector organisations. Many more vaccines could be developed but unfortunately those who provide the funding don't see the commercial benefits of doing so. The plus for covid is that we will now see lots of other new vaccines developed on the back of the covid mRNA vaccine developments.

In this case there were several things that came together to shorten the timescales

1. The new techniques, both mRNA and the attenuated vaccine process used by AstraZeneca meant that the vaccine vector was basically designed in a few days. This can often take 18 months to do. That's a tech improvement
2. Shorter trials - trials are not run for a set length of time, they're run for a set amount of exposure for a certain number of people. Normally it takes time to get people signed up to the trial, and then you have to wait for a suitable percentage to be exposed to the disease. There were plent of volunteers and the disease was everywhere, so this took less time than normal
3. underwriting by govt - this meant that scale up production plants could be built before knowing the outcome of the trials. So they were done in parallel with the trials instead of a year or two afterwards
4. condensing approval processes - and that's condensing them, not bypassing them. There's a number of parts to this but a key one for example is that it normally takes 6 months and upwards to get a reveiw panel together. There's a lot of people with very busy diaries and competing pressures. But here, if you were wanted for a reveiw panel next week, you chucked everything else out of the window and attended.
5. As mentioned above, funding. Applying for funding usually takes months to write the application and then months to get a decision. And that will happen multiple times through a vaccine development. Not having to do that would take a year or two off the timeline.

And there were other aspects around distribution etc. These all added up to make the timeline much shorter. Shows what's achievable with a whole lot of focus. And money.

[Rinkals]

the doubts around vaccination stuff does all go back to the MMR stuff and Andrew Wakefield. That's where it kicked in in modern times.

Always worth remembering he was paid £400,000 to diss the MMR jab by lawyers acting for a single dose measles jab.

Aye, I get fucking angry every time that prick's name comes up.

Wakefield is my mother's maiden name.

It's also worth considering that these SARS viruses have been round for a number of years and, rather than being developed overnight, as the antivaxxers claim, the vaccine has been in development for a decade.

[Ymx]

They've started the second booster programme in Scotland.

Doing it by age again - over 65s first I think

What’s your opinion on another booster - not a challenge in any way, genuine question. My first reaction is that having had all 3 plus Covid at least once that feels enough. From a position of zero knowledge of course

I think the ongoing advice from Health authorities is that if you've had Covid within x weeks, you don't need the booster; & the rational is that having the actual virus activates your immune system, & that's sufficient to keep that, learned, response to keep the virus in check.

But that's the function that the boosters fill; to keep peoples immune systems primed & ready pounce on virus, if they get infected; & the advantage that the boosters have over an actual infection, is that they are specifically tuned for the variants in the wild, & Covid in general.

Think of it as weight training. You can just pump iron, or you can target specific muscle groups, & aim for a specific event, rather than just being generally fitter, & stronger.

I understood the exact opposite to be true. The c19 vaccines haven’t changed for the variants, they’ve remained the same.

Obviously what you catch is what’s in the wild.

Though perhaps that will be, how it ends up. Getting in a shot to match a new up and coming variant as per the flu.

[dpedin]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

Problem is covid is a novel virus and we have little idea what the wider or longer term effects of it might be on health.

For example some people who contracted polio, albeit in a mild form, way back in 40s and 50s prior to widespread vaccination are now suffering from post polio syndrome. This can take between 15-40 years to develop. No-one knew about this at the time, little is still known about it and there is no cure for it. Whilst not life threatening it is debilitating for many sufferers. 99.5% of those who contracted polio were either symptom free or only had mild illness. Of the 0.5% many developed muscle weakness but recovered. However of this cohort 2-5% of kids died and 15-30% of adults died, many were left disabled. Small percentages but large numbers - that is why we vaccinate against polio.

So it is true that the vast majority of kids will not have any immediate health impact when they contract covid - so you take your chances, don't vaccinate kids and keep your fingers crossed they don't develop long covid and/or suffer longer term health impacts we don't know about it yet or vaccinate them and increase their chances of avoiding both.

[Ymx]

Most kids, if not, close to most have already had covid. And many more than once (my daughter included).

So it’s not clear if there are significant benefits for her in having a shot. If she hadn’t have already had it, there would be a stronger case to get her to have a jab.

[Marylandolorian]

Most kids, if not, close to most have already had covid. And many more than once (my daughter included).

So it’s not clear if there are significant benefits for her in having a shot. If she hadn’t have already had it, there would be a stronger case to get her to have a jab.

Few months ago we talked about Hybrid immunity being the most effective one, I thought you were part of the conversation.

[Ymx]

There was indeed an article of being vaccinated, and then getting covid which was supposed to create a big resilience. Although I think that was in relation to delta, and before omicron was the key strain.

[Ymx]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abn8014

Think the study pre dated omicron (it’s not mentioned as a variant of concern studied in the results).

[Marylandolorian]

There was indeed an article of being vaccinated, and then getting covid which was supposed to create a big resilience. Although I think that was in relation to delta, and before omicron was the key strain.

From this week with the new variants.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220 ... d-BA2.aspx

[Ymx]

There was indeed an article of being vaccinated, and then getting covid which was supposed to create a big resilience. Although I think that was in relation to delta, and before omicron was the key strain.

From this week with the new variants.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220 ... d-BA2.aspx

Thanks, will have a read.

[Marylandolorian]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abn8014

Think the study pre dated omicron (it’s not mentioned as a variant of concern studied in the results).

This one is easier to understand, at least for me.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-03- ... eople.html

[Ymx]

There’s a slight health warning on that study, btw. Scroll to bottom of the link you provided.

*Important notice

medRxiv publishes preliminary scientific reports that are not peer-reviewed and, therefore, should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice/health-related behavior, or treated as established information.

[C69]

Dear feck

[Marylandolorian]

Dear feck

Yep

[Happyhooker]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

Kids can get the flu vaccine in Ireland????

[fishfoodie]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

Kids can get the flu vaccine in Ireland????

Five years old & older.

It's the only way to keep schools open, & reduce the amount of virus circulating around.

COVID-19 vaccination is available to children aged 5 to 15 to give them protection against serious COVID-19 illness.

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vacci ... /children/

[Ymx]

So currently, is this correct

England 5-11 year olds are being offered it if they are in a clinical at risk group

Scotland all 5-11 year olds are currently being offered it

Ireland all 5 plus year olds have been offered it

[Line6 HXFX]

Some scary reality check in the gaurdian..if facts and science actually mean anything anymore.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-pandemic

[Paddington Bear]

About half my team at work have had it over the last couple of weeks. A range of ages from 25-65. None have had anything more than a few days off work.

[dpedin]

So currently, is this correct

England 5-11 year olds are being offered it if they are in a clinical at risk group

Scotland all 5-11 year olds are currently being offered it

Ireland all 5 plus year olds have been offered it

In Scotland all children in primary and secondary school are offered the flu vaccine.

[Marylandolorian]

Some scary reality check in the gaurdian..if facts and science actually mean anything anymore.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-pandemic

Very good article, it’s exactly what’s happening in most part of the world, Covid changes but people’s behavior doesn’t.

[TB63]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

37616292-9113793-image-m-2_1609836347889.jpg (30.2 KiB) Viewed 925 times

[Grandpa]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

37616292-9113793-image-m-2_1609836347889.jpg

You don't see them warning you about that symptom!

[Ymx]

So currently, is this correct

England 5-11 year olds are being offered it if they are in a clinical at risk group

Scotland all 5-11 year olds are currently being offered it

Ireland all 5 plus year olds have been offered it

In Scotland all children in primary and secondary school are offered the flu vaccine.

I was wondering about the status of covid shots for kids by country.

[dpedin]

So currently, is this correct

England 5-11 year olds are being offered it if they are in a clinical at risk group

Scotland all 5-11 year olds are currently being offered it

Ireland all 5 plus year olds have been offered it

In Scotland all children in primary and secondary school are offered the flu vaccine.

I was wondering about the status of covid shots for kids by country.

Sorry - my mistake!

[dpedin]

Covid vaccines are a curious one in relation to kids. I should preface all this by saying I am pro vaccine and have even appeared in a vaccine campaign. My kids have had all their vaccines and have the flu one. We do that based on experience and trust. We have seen the kids with a bad dose of the flu and the temp get uncontrollably high and be very sick. On the covid front all out kids have had it, officially once probably three times. None have been particularly sick. Temp just tipped 38 on one of the four. Otherwise fine and that includes our lad with respiratory issues. Viewed through that prism why would you vaccinate?

Problem is covid is a novel virus and we have little idea what the wider or longer term effects of it might be on health.

For example some people who contracted polio, albeit in a mild form, way back in 40s and 50s prior to widespread vaccination are now suffering from post polio syndrome. This can take between 15-40 years to develop. No-one knew about this at the time, little is still known about it and there is no cure for it. Whilst not life threatening it is debilitating for many sufferers. 99.5% of those who contracted polio were either symptom free or only had mild illness. Of the 0.5% many developed muscle weakness but recovered. However of this cohort 2-5% of kids died and 15-30% of adults died, many were left disabled. Small percentages but large numbers - that is why we vaccinate against polio.

So it is true that the vast majority of kids will not have any immediate health impact when they contract covid - so you take your chances, don't vaccinate kids and keep your fingers crossed they don't develop long covid and/or suffer longer term health impacts we don't know about it yet or vaccinate them and increase their chances of avoiding both.

Yes I see your point but after two years and a few doses of covid I can say with a fair amount of confidence it's does fuck all to my kids. Genetics, luck, whatever. I then have take a punt on what's best. I haven't advertised it as I think giving it to your kids is also a valid position. Only about 20% of 5-11 year olds have been given it here. Some of that 80% are rabid antivax wasters but most have just weighed it up and said let's see

There is more growing research findings that shows vaccination for those who have already had covid provides increased levels of protection from more serious ill health and long covid, far greater than that acquired through natural infection. There is also good evidence that people who have previously been infected with covid can be reinfected and then develop more serious illness or long covid the second or third time round. Having had covid does not mean you can't be reinfected and have more serious effects second time around. It would be negligent in my view not to vaccinate children, regardless of whether they have already had covid, if a safe vaccine which has clearly been proven to reduce illness and longer term health problems is available. Why take the risk? 'Lets see' is a dodgy strategy as if you wait and see if they develop a more serious reaction to their next infection then it is too late to vaccinate, the damage is done. Its a bit like trying to take out home insurance after the fire has taken hold in your house.

[Slick]

Was out hillwalking today and met my first proper Covid loon.

Stopped to have a chat as I headed down and he was heading up. As always these days Covid came up - “its not natural, it’s either nanotechnology or 5G, don’t you think?”

Erm, no I don’t

Really? Wow!

Was pretty shocked to be honest

[tabascoboy]

Covid: Record 4.9 million people have the virus in UK

About one in every 13 people in the UK has coronavirus, according to latest estimates from the Office for National Statistics (ONS). That is some 4.9 million people, up from 4.3 million people the week before. ONS officials say that is the highest number seen since its survey began at the end of April 2020.

The surge in infections is being driven partly by the contagious Omicron BA.2 sub-variant and people mixing more.

The figures for the week ending 26 March are thought to give the most accurate reflection of what's happening with the virus in the community. The ONS survey tests thousands of people randomly in households across the UK - whether or not they have symptoms.

Kara Steel, senior statistician for the Covid-19 infection survey, said: "Infection levels remain high, with the highest levels recorded in our survey seen in England and Wales and notable increases among older age groups."

The latest data comes on the day that most people in England will have to start paying for Covid-19 tests.

The government's "living with Covid" plan means free testing will only continue for certain groups - including some people with weakened immune systems, people admitted to hospital and health and care staff.

In general people who test positive for Covid are now advised to try to stay at home for five days and avoid contact with others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60953501

[Marylandolorian]

I can’t believe some morons, oops I meant parents, hesitate to get their kids vaccinated.

COVID vaccines in children cut Omicron hospitalizations by 68% ( source : Boston Children’s Hospital)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2202826

[C69]

Was out hillwalking today and met my first proper Covid loon.

Stopped to have a chat as I headed down and he was heading up. As always these days Covid came up - “its not natural, it’s either nanotechnology or 5G, don’t you think?”

Erm, no I don’t

Really? Wow!

Was pretty shocked to be honest

Did you tell him he was a scientific illiterate?

[Slick]

Was out hillwalking today and met my first proper Covid loon.

Stopped to have a chat as I headed down and he was heading up. As always these days Covid came up - “its not natural, it’s either nanotechnology or 5G, don’t you think?”

Erm, no I don’t

Really? Wow!

Was pretty shocked to be honest

Did you tell him he was a scientific illiterate?

Zero chance he would have understood that combination of words

[petej]

So currently, is this correct

England 5-11 year olds are being offered it if they are in a clinical at risk group

Scotland all 5-11 year olds are currently being offered it

Ireland all 5 plus year olds have been offered it

In Scotland all children in primary and secondary school are offered the flu vaccine.

I was wondering about the status of covid shots for kids by country.

Pretty sure 2+ age group and primary and secondary in Wales. My son had the nasal spray flu vaccine and isn't in at risk group.

[dpedin]

Yes I see your point but after two years and a few doses of covid I can say with a fair amount of confidence it's does fuck all to my kids. Genetics, luck, whatever. I then have take a punt on what's best. I haven't advertised it as I think giving it to your kids is also a valid position. Only about 20% of 5-11 year olds have been given it here. Some of that 80% are rabid antivax wasters but most have just weighed it up and said let's see

There is more growing research findings that shows vaccination for those who have already had covid provides increased levels of protection from more serious ill health and long covid, far greater than that acquired through natural infection. There is also good evidence that people who have previously been infected with covid can be reinfected and then develop more serious illness or long covid the second or third time round. Having had covid does not mean you can't be reinfected and have more serious effects second time around. It would be negligent in my view not to vaccinate children, regardless of whether they have already had covid, if a safe vaccine which has clearly been proven to reduce illness and longer term health problems is available. Why take the risk? 'Lets see' is a dodgy strategy as if you wait and see if they develop a more serious reaction to their next infection then it is too late to vaccinate, the damage is done. Its a bit like trying to take out home insurance after the fire has taken hold in your house.

I don't feel negligent in the least. Not a scintilla of negligence. Long covid is a load of bollox in most kids. Look yours is a minority view but I am.supportive of it if you want to do it. Why take the risk? Because I don't think there is a risk. Long covid is mostly bollox full stop but in kids it's non existent. You can take that to the bank. Post viral malaise? Yeah I am sure there is a bit knocking about

OK - adopt the 'let's wait and see strategy' - good luck to your kids.

[dpedin]

This scandal isn't going away!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-60940877

[Ymx]

I can’t believe some morons, oops I meant parents, hesitate to get their kids vaccinated.

COVID vaccines in children cut Omicron hospitalizations by 68% ( source : Boston Children’s Hospital)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2202826

That’s a pretty shitty post, when this whole experience is a steep learning curve for us.

I’m hesitant, and want to be better informed. Especially given my daughter has been twice infected and with low level symptoms in both cases. But you go ahead and call me and others a moron if you feel it justified.

What age group are your kids?

[fishfoodie]

I don't feel too bad about it to be honest. I am not wracked with guilt. My wife is the sensible one, works as a healthcare professional and she is not arsed with the kids getting it. That came from discussions with medical colleagues. It was toss of the coin stuff but wait and see was the general feeling. As I noted most people whether or not healthcare dudes have picked up on that. Tbf it's rampantly political in places like NZ and the US so you can't trust their judgement on this at all

Did you procrastinate this much about your kids getting the MMR, or Polio, or HPV Vaccines ?

At this stage there have been billions, & billions, & billions of Covid vaccines administered, & all the data says that if you catch it, the consequences are massively better if you've been vaccinated, regardless of age, or anything else.

[Tichtheid]

Why would one not have their children vaccinated against Covid 19?

[fishfoodie]

I'm certainly not trying to come across as all High & Mighty or anything.

To me this comes done to either you believing, the Scientists, & Statistics, or you don't !

If you don't, then you might as well join the people who think you increase the effectiveness of a solution by diluting it with a million liters of water; & if you do; then you need to ask yourself why this particular piece of Science is different to all the other bits you accept every day of the week ?