Is NZ entering a Golden Age of halfbacks?

[Carter's Choice]

Aaron Smith
TJ Perenara
Brad Weber
Bryn Hall
Finlay Christie
Jamie Booth
Sam Nock
Mitch Drummond
Te Tahuriorangi
Folau Fakatava

I've never seen so much depth in NZ Rugby at no.9. At least 8 of these players would not look at all out of place in an All Black jersey, and I have no doubt would do a great job if called upon. We really are entering an exciting era of NZ Rugby where our 9's are increasingly the on-field general, calling the shots and making the playing making decisions.

[FujiKiwi]

"Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi"

Yes, literally golden-haired, a couple of them.

[Carter's Choice]

"Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi"

Yes, literally golden-haired, a couple of them.

I ranked them roughly in order of quality and if Mitch Drummond is our 8th best half back then our depth is exceptional. Contrast this depth with any other position.

[Jim Lahey]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

[JM2K6]

I remember you saying exactly the same thing about 12 years ago. Not sure Brendon Leonard, Steve Devine, and Alby Mathewson really deserved it.

[FujiKiwi]

I think Hall might have leapfrogged Weber on form.

[FujiKiwi]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

Finlay Christie was born in Peebles.

[Carter's Choice]

I remember you saying exactly the same thing about 12 years ago. Not sure Brendon Leonard, Steve Devine, and Alby Mathewson really deserved it.

Nope, that thread was about a Golden Age of first fives. This is the first time I've ever started a thread about halfbacks, traditionally a weakness of NZ rugby.'

[Carter's Choice]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

You'd probably be able to poach most of those players via residency as they won't be getting many opportunities. Whilst he can barely speak English, Folau Fakatava would be a great Irish halfback.

[Jim Lahey]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

Finlay Christie was born in Peebles.

Well then he’s gone.
The reality for NZ fans is that at least 3 or 4 from that list will probably get caps for other nations when they leave in their mid 20s due to the backlog of choice for the NZ selectors.

[Jim Lahey]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

You'd probably be able to poach most of those players via residency as they won't be getting many opportunities. Whilst he can barely speak English, Folau Fakatava would be a great Irish halfback.

Not as good as Issac Boss shirley?

[Carter's Choice]

How many have English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh grannies?

You'd probably be able to poach most of those players via residency as they won't be getting many opportunities. Whilst he can barely speak English, Folau Fakatava would be a great Irish halfback.

Not as good as Issac Boss shirley?

He;s much more promising than Boss. Fakatava is the most talented young 9 in NZ.

[JM2K6]

I remember you saying exactly the same thing about 12 years ago. Not sure Brendon Leonard, Steve Devine, and Alby Mathewson really deserved it.

Nope, that thread was about a Golden Age of first fives. This is the first time I've ever started a thread about halfbacks, traditionally a weakness of NZ rugby.'

You have definitely talked like this about scrumhalves before, unless RealCrusader did it and it's not his style. Even the same logic - "we don't normally produce this much depth". There were a few very eyebrow-raising names on that list. I always loved your boasting threads so rarely forget them.

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

[Carter's Choice]

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

Nock looked unreal this season - like a different player. TTT had zero opportunities. By what measure do you think Drummond has gone backwards? And Aaron Smth is universally accepted (aside from you) to be in career best form. Of course none of these players come close to Willie Hienz when it comes to quality.

[JM2K6]

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

Nock looked unreal this season - like a different player. TTT had zero opportunities. By what measure do you think Drummond has gone backwards? And Aaron Smth is universally accepted (aside from you) to be in career best form. Of course none of these players come close to Willie Hienz when it comes to quality.

Nock was a handbrake on the Blues this season. They looked so much better with either alternative at 9. His kicking alone is awful, and was evident against the Canes and the Chiefs (the latter game being a great example of how much better the Blues play without him - as soon as he went off, they hit another level).

Drummond hasn't managed to make the 9 shirt his own and is a talented player who hasn't quite managed to find the consistency he needs at this tage of his career. Bryn Hall is not as talented but makes the most of it and is the obvious first choice. Drummond's not a kid any more, he really should have kicked on by now. I was going to ask about TTT's injury record: has he missed a lot of rugby? A few years back he was the next big thing, but...

I'm not slagging Aaron Smith off, I think he's in good form, but he's been in better form before, prior to his massive dip post afterdavid-gate.

Willie Heinz is not in NZ any more so not sure why he's relevant, though he's certainly a bit shite.

[Slarty FizzyO]

No, we're leaving the golden age. Aaron Smith peaked in 2015. TJ has been the outright best kiwi SH since 2016. I don't recall a time in my life when we haven't had a world class SH. Most of those guys are good without bring great. Hopefully there's some outrageous talents yet to poke their heads out otherwise we're gonna have to pray Snecky and TJ make it to 2023

[Masterji]

Any more in the younger age groups?

[Monkey Magic]

No, we're leaving the golden age. Aaron Smith peaked in 2015. TJ has been the outright best kiwi SH since 2016. I don't recall a time in my life when we haven't had a world class SH. Most of those guys are good without bring great. Hopefully there's some outrageous talents yet to poke their heads out otherwise we're gonna have to pray Snecky and TJ make it to 2023

Didnt we play a test against England with Steve Devine (who got knocked out) and Duggan? Might be mis remembering who came on for Devine

[Gumboot]

Ridiculous depth across the NZ game right now, but imo the golden age of All Blacks halfbacks was the 2015 muster of peak Nugget, Perenara and the underrated Kerr-Barlow.

[Carter's Choice]

No, we're leaving the golden age. Aaron Smith peaked in 2015. TJ has been the outright best kiwi SH since 2016. I don't recall a time in my life when we haven't had a world class SH. Most of those guys are good without bring great. Hopefully there's some outrageous talents yet to poke their heads out otherwise we're gonna have to pray Snecky and TJ make it to 2023

We currently have 8 half backs in NZ who could do a good job at test level. Mitch Drummond being the 8th ranked player, who has been test capped and won four SR titles in a row. We've never had this much depth at no.9 since I started watching Rugby.

[Ted.]

No, we're leaving the golden age. Aaron Smith peaked in 2015. TJ has been the outright best kiwi SH since 2016. I don't recall a time in my life when we haven't had a world class SH. Most of those guys are good without bring great. Hopefully there's some outrageous talents yet to poke their heads out otherwise we're gonna have to pray Snecky and TJ make it to 2023

For example, Marshall and Kelleher were not a patch on their international rivals. Sure, they had their moments, but in general they were leaden footed pie chuckers in comparison to any number of Aussie and Saffa halfbacks. In fact, since Graeme Bachop, we didn't have what could be termed an outstanding halfback until Sneaky.

[Gumboot]

For example, Marshall and Kelleher were not a patch on their international rivals. Sure, they had their moments, but in general they were leaden footed pie chuckers in comparison to any number of Aussie and Saffa halfbacks. In fact, since Graeme Bachop, we didn't have what could be termed an outstanding halfback until Sneaky.

Also, the couple of years in the early '90s when Laurie Mains overlooked Bachop and kept picking Ant Strachan, Stu Forster and Jon Preston instead.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I remember you saying exactly the same thing about 12 years ago. Not sure Brendon Leonard, Steve Devine, and Alby Mathewson really deserved it.

Nope, that thread was about a Golden Age of first fives. This is the first time I've ever started a thread about halfbacks, traditionally a weakness of NZ rugby.'

You have definitely talked like this about scrumhalves before, unless RealCrusader did it and it's not his style. Even the same logic - "we don't normally produce this much depth". There were a few very eyebrow-raising names on that list. I always loved your boasting threads so rarely forget them.

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

[FujiKiwi]

It used to rip my undies when everyone praised Justin Marshall for being "an extra loose forward". The commentators would say it every game, overlooking the fact that he was a rather limited halfback.

I really like Marshall as a commentator, though. He's fallible but I don't get all the hate directed against him in that regard.

[Carter's Choice]

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

Indeed. I've never seen Smith in better form. His leadership and decision making around the field is as good as ever.

[Kiwias]

I remember you saying exactly the same thing about 12 years ago. Not sure Brendon Leonard, Steve Devine, and Alby Mathewson really deserved it.

Nope, that thread was about a Golden Age of first fives. This is the first time I've ever started a thread about halfbacks, traditionally a weakness of NZ rugby.'

You have definitely talked like this about scrumhalves before, unless RealCrusader did it and it's not his style. Even the same logic - "we don't normally produce this much depth". There were a few very eyebrow-raising names on that list. I always loved your boasting threads so rarely forget them.

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

Nope, he is a better player.

[Kiwias]

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

Indeed. I've never seen Smith in better form. His leadership and decision making around the field is as good as ever.

He is breathtaking at times.

[Caley_Red]

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

Indeed. I've never seen Smith in better form. His leadership and decision making around the field is as good as ever.

He is breathtaking at times.

Yeah, some of the performances in SR Aot were stupendous- the best 9 in the world for me.

[mrbrownstone]

I'd be comfortable with any of Smith, TJP, Weber, and Hall playing for the All Blacks (in that order), and Fakatava is the future. TTT hasn't played enough this year to fairly judge.

I don't really think any of Nock, Christie, Booth, or Drummond are All Black standard, but could probably fill a hold in a pinch. I also rate Eri Enari quite highly if he can start getting consistent gametime.

So we have two world class halfbacks, one very good international standard player (Weber), a promising youngster who could be anything (Fakatava) and a bunch of solid but not outstanding options.

It's very good depth, but as others say I think we were better off in 2015 with Smith, TJP and TKB. The likes of Andy Ellis and Willi Heinz couldn't even get a look in.

[Who_ate_all_the_pies]

I'd be comfortable with any of Smith, TJP, Weber, and Hall playing for the All Blacks (in that order), and Fakatava is the future. TTT hasn't played enough this year to fairly judge.

I don't really think any of Nock, Christie, Booth, or Drummond are All Black standard, but could probably fill a hold in a pinch. I also rate Eri Enari quite highly if he can start getting consistent gametime.

So we have two world class halfbacks, one very good international standard player (Weber), a promising youngster who could be anything (Fakatava) and a bunch of solid but not outstanding options.

It's very good depth, but as others say I think we were better off in 2015 with Smith, TJP and TKB. The likes of Andy Ellis and Willi Heinz couldn't even get a look in.

Its a pity as I thought Andy Ellis had pretty good game management. Better than TJP anyway.

That being said, Smith is in a rich vein of form now. Too bad I doubt it lasts 4 years

[booji boy]

For example, Marshall and Kelleher were not a patch on their international rivals. Sure, they had their moments, but in general they were leaden footed pie chuckers in comparison to any number of Aussie and Saffa halfbacks. In fact, since Graeme Bachop, we didn't have what could be termed an outstanding halfback until Sneaky.

Also, the couple of years in the early '90s when Laurie Mains overlooked Bachop and kept picking Ant Strachan, Stu Forster and Jon Preston instead.

Yeah those first couple of years Mains had an 'anyone but Aucklanders or those previously selected by Aucklander John Hart' selection policy. Kept players like Bachop and Zinzan Brooke out for a couple of seasons but they were back with a vengeance in 1995.

[JM2K6]

Nope, that thread was about a Golden Age of first fives. This is the first time I've ever started a thread about halfbacks, traditionally a weakness of NZ rugby.'

You have definitely talked like this about scrumhalves before, unless RealCrusader did it and it's not his style. Even the same logic - "we don't normally produce this much depth". There were a few very eyebrow-raising names on that list. I always loved your boasting threads so rarely forget them.

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

I've watched every single game.

I honestly think he was a better player before his indiscretions. That does not mean I think he's playing badly now. You guys disagree. That's fine.

[booji boy]

You have definitely talked like this about scrumhalves before, unless RealCrusader did it and it's not his style. Even the same logic - "we don't normally produce this much depth". There were a few very eyebrow-raising names on that list. I always loved your boasting threads so rarely forget them.

Real talk: Nock is awful IMO, TTT has gone backwards a bit, ditto Drummond. Smith isn't quite the same player he was pre-airport, TJP is outstanding now.

You can tell JMK doesn't watch much Super Rugby Aotearoa. Smith is playing some of the best rugby in his career, as the man himself noted after the game on Saturday.

I've watched every single game.

I honestly think he was a better player before his indiscretions. That does not mean I think he's playing badly now. You guys disagree. That's fine.

Seems a strange view. No doubt he suffered a slump in form immediately following the afterdavid event and for a while was playing second string to TJP. But that incident was years ago and he has bounced back to being world class in the past few years. I can't see any long term loss of form following that incident.

[JM2K6]

Seems a strange view. No doubt he suffered a slump in form immediately following the afterdavid event and for a while was playing second string to TJP. But that incident was years ago and he has bounced back to being world class in the past few years. I can't see any long term loss of form following that incident.

We're somewhat mixing SR and international stuff here but it's my view that after the incident his form fell off a cliff, then when he started playing better he still looked a little flawed - too prone to losing his head if under pressure at ruck time leading to compound errors, not quite as prominent in attacking moves as before, more fallible with his kicking - in a way that was definitely not obvious before his world had caved in around him. He is not playing like that now, but it's my opinion that these faults still exist to a varying degree (it's no surprise England targeted him in the SF, for example) which still make him a slightly lesser player than before.

The breakdown laws under which SR Aotearoa were played certainly give him a better platform, as there's a dramatically reduced chance of scrum halves being interfered with and quick ball is more abundant, so his obviously high-quality distribution comes to the fore. These laws are a real boon for him. There is no doubt that if we're purely talking about distribution from the breakdown then he is excelling - no-one has a better pass, no-one can pick a runner like him either. But that's not all a 9 does these days.

[Carter's Choice]

So to sum up JMK, Aaron Smith's form is in decline because he lost a test match in 2019.

[JM2K6]

So to sum up JMK, Aaron Smith's form is in decline because he lost a test match in 2019.

World class post, Ali.

[Gumboot]

We're somewhat mixing SR and international stuff here but it's my view that after the incident his form fell off a cliff, then when he started playing better he still looked a little flawed - too prone to losing his head if under pressure at ruck time leading to compound errors, not quite as prominent in attacking moves as before, more fallible with his kicking - in a way that was definitely not obvious before his world had caved in around him. He is not playing like that now, but it's my opinion that these faults still exist to a varying degree (it's no surprise England targeted him in the SF, for example) which still make him a slightly lesser player than before.

The breakdown laws under which SR Aotearoa were played certainly give him a better platform, as there's a dramatically reduced chance of scrum halves being interfered with and quick ball is more abundant, so his obviously high-quality distribution comes to the fore. These laws are a real boon for him. There is no doubt that if we're purely talking about distribution from the breakdown then he is excelling - no-one has a better pass, no-one can pick a runner like him either. But that's not all a 9 does these days.

Yep, agree with all of that.

And his defence has gone up a notch this year. He's running more as well. Career best form or very close to it, for mine.

[Guy Smiley]

I’m with JM2K here...

Last year TJP was a better option for the test team. Smith’s had a good campaign over 7 games of SR Aoteroa.

I think there’s a little bit of dazzling going on. Some unrequited manlove. I’ll even go so far as to suggest a bit of prison crush.

[Carter's Choice]

I’ll even go so far as to suggest a bit of prison crush.

Sounds like Golden Circle's latest fruit punch flavour.

[Guy Smiley]