Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[Kawazaki]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

[yermum]

And Leinster play Munster....

[Torquemada 1420]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

[PCPhil]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

[Kawazaki]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

[OomStruisbaai]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

12 hours during the night in the same time zone is vokol. getting shafted by South Africa teams is something different.

[fishfoodie]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

They're bigger commercial draws, but how many of their teams would survive if the sugar daddies weren't keeping them solvent ?

I don't know the numbers for the T14, but they have plenty of them too, & I wouldn't be surprised if when the tide went out, they were all swimming nude too.

At least with the Union operated teams, the money from the International games support the teams, & they can lay terms, & stop teams spunking away money on imported players that are there for the short term gain, eg Sale. That way the Union gets the payoff, by trying to give pathways for qualifying players. It's certainly not perfect, & you're right that it's taking a lot of chopping & changing to get a viable product, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

[notfatcat]

And Leinster B play Munster B....

[OomStruisbaai]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

You looking for excuses for having kak teams?

[Torquemada 1420]

They're bigger commercial draws, but how many of their teams would survive if the sugar daddies weren't keeping them solvent ?

I don't know the numbers for the T14, but they have plenty of them too, & I wouldn't be surprised if when the tide went out, they were all swimming nude too.

At least with the Union operated teams, the money from the International games support the teams, & they can lay terms, & stop teams spunking away money on imported players that are there for the short term gain, eg Sale. That way the Union gets the payoff, by trying to give pathways for qualifying players. It's certainly not perfect, & you're right that it's taking a lot of chopping & changing to get a viable product, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Ireland have managed it as perfectly as I suspect is possible in the system open to them which has resulted in competitive sides in Europe and an intl side that now "punches above its weight" (actually is where it has earned a right to be). I can't believe outside the derby games, the domestic product is very satisfying but 2 out of 3 ain't bad. For Wales, the system is a disaster. It's seesaw for Scotland who simply don't have enough sides and without the rich, foreign clubs, simply wouldn't have enough of a playing pool. Time will tell what the SA public thinks about this. If the SA sides don't start to perform, the URC becomes completely valueless as the Irish clubs already dominate whilst fielding 2nd string teams for much of the time.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

Jetlag: same timezone pretty much? But agree that French clubs are likely to throw games if this means compromising chances in T14. Remember France, unlike England, still has relegation.

[Camroc2]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

And the URC teams have to fly down to SA as part of their league.

BooHoo ladies.

[sockwithaticket]

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

And the URC teams have to fly down to SA as part of their league.

BooHoo ladies.

You chose that, the rest of us didn't. I still don't think the SA teams should've been allowed into the Euro competitions.

[Camroc2]

And Leinster B play Munster B....

It'll be Munster firsts, they need the win.

Most of the time Leinster play mixed teams, that means we give lots of gametime to young players, which causes surprise when the English and French commentators first see them.

[Kawazaki]

Might as well say that Liverpool should sign up to whatever UEFA dream up as a money maker next as they are playing too many games. I agree that the structure on Northern Rugby compared to our antipodean cousins is…..haphazard? That’s not the HEC’s issue. It’s a magnificent competition (just wish those b’strds at BT Sport didn’t have it).

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

And the URC teams have to fly down to SA as part of their league.

BooHoo ladies.

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

[Camroc2]

More winning, less whinging, please.

[Kawazaki]

More winning, less whinging, please.

I know you Irish fans live in your little bubble giving each other pats on the back but all the things you've accused the 'spivs' of, Leinster are guilty of the same and far worse. Opaque accounting, bungs for Sexton, tax dodges but worse is the manipulation to game your hand in the HEC.

[Kawazaki]

More winning, less whinging, please.

I know you Irish fans live in your little bubble giving each other pats on the back but all the things you've accused the 'spivs' of, Leinster are guilty of the same and far worse. Opaque accounting, bungs for Sexton, tax dodges but worse is the manipulation to game your hand in the HEC.

To be fair at least the French are still winning. That's something

It's amusing that your hubris blocks you from seeing the obvious shitstorm coming down the pipe towards you.

[Kawazaki]

I couldn't give a fuck. We lose and everyone laughs We win and everyone moans

You're a stereotype.

[iarmhí]

I couldn't give a fuck. We lose and everyone laughs We win and everyone moans

Never a truer thing said. If it pisses off Toga even better

[Kawazaki]

Aren't we all. Are you talking about some other change like the English pissing off again and setting up some other shite they hope they can stitch up winning. Whatever. I said it before I'd gladly go back to watching club games with a few hundred others but the French won't be stupid enough to be the Thelma to your Louise again

Are you kidding?! For the French the T14 is everything, the HEC is very much an afterthought. Just look at what Montpellier did. It really wouldn't take much for them to walk away. No idea what the English clubs will do but on a £5m budget, the same as Newport Dragons, it will be very difficult to play league games and make a credible attempt to win the HEC that includes teams spending twice as much and play half the number of games.

Even an Irish stereotype can do that level maths.

[Kawazaki]

The French will do what most annoys the English these days.

They weren't so far away for voting in their own Frexit a few weeks ago. Don't be so cock sure, the French and the English have more in common than you might think.

[JM2K6]

This is getting all a bit Planet Rugby for my tastes.

[happytramp]

It's not really magnificent is it. And flying for 12 hours down to South Africa to play with jetlag in the African summer won't make it any easier for English and French teams that have domestic league matches a few days after they fly 12 hours back will it.

It's a dog's breakfast.

And the URC teams have to fly down to SA as part of their league.

BooHoo ladies.

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

The great irony being for all your misguided insults... With the provinces and now the SA teams the URC has far more quality in it than the utter dogs dinner of the GP..... Hell, we got a good look at what's on offer in the T14 earlier too. How did that go?

[sockwithaticket]

And the URC teams have to fly down to SA as part of their league.

BooHoo ladies.

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

The great irony being for all your misguided insults... With the provinces and now the SA teams the URC has far more quality in it than the utter dogs dinner of the GP..... Hell, we got a good look at what's on offer in the T14 earlier too. How did that go?

Did we? Knock out rounds have often been dull, cagey games even when the French aren't involved. If you want to take that as representative of the Top 14 then more fool you.

[freddie]

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

The great irony being for all your misguided insults... With the provinces and now the SA teams the URC has far more quality in it than the utter dogs dinner of the GP..... Hell, we got a good look at what's on offer in the T14 earlier too. How did that go?

Did we? Knock out rounds have often been dull, cagey games even when the French aren't involved. If you want to take that as representative of the Top 14 then more fool you.

You're right. It's even worse. Tried and failed more times than I care to remember to watch Top 14 matches.
Utterly embarrassing how they waste the talent in that league.
The fact that they don't even bother with away matches makes a complete farce of the idea that they play too much.
Look at the away results in this table: https://www.livesport.com/en/rugby-unio ... standings/
All teams below 3rd, bar one, only won a quarter (3) of their away games, and two of those three are against teams that lost all their games.

[ASMO]

I think with the 5 million cap in the PL i can see the English teams now putting out second string sides in the European Comps next season so they can focus in the league.

Next 4 or 5 years i cant see any English side make a semi final in the Champions Cup, let alone a final.

[Torquemada 1420]

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

There is something to this. In Soup, the big money really was from the SA audience. Up here, it's Eng and Fra. I can envisage a position where those 3 decide they should take the (ahem) lion's share and even dispense with the likes of Wales.

[Torquemada 1420]

The great irony being for all your misguided insults... With the provinces and now the SA teams the URC has far more quality in it than the utter dogs dinner of the GP..... Hell, we got a good look at what's on offer in the T14 earlier too. How did that go?

You're in Lala land on this but even if the spectacle to your eyes is better, it matters not. What matters is bums on seats (in front of tvs) and I'd bet the audience in France alone exceeds the combined total of the URC before the SA sides entered. As for SA, see my post above.

[Tichtheid]

I'm struggling to find number for Top 14 viewers, but according to this article int he Times the Eng Premiership tops out at 370k with an average of around 240k, up from 200k.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prem ... -l9rq3bs95


The URC averages 250k viewers with a combined audience of over a million for a weekend - all of our games are shown live. I predict that the URC number will rise as more naysayers will be drawn in. I also think that the games in South Africa will become more competitive as the awe of playing the Springboks wears off a little. You'll still get Leinster sending a shadow side - I can't remember the last time Johnny Sexton played in Edinburgh in a regular league match, in fact Leinster haven't played a regular league match in Edinburgh for three years, it'll be four by the time they get there next season.
https://www.unitedrugby.com/latest/news ... -tv-urc-r2


I think the French viewing figures are some ways above both other leagues though I can't find a link as yet

[Tichtheid]

Allowing South Africans into your league is your business. Trouble is your shithouse league letting in South Africans is the back door for them to enter the European Cup.

I suspect we're very close to a tipping point where the main commercial drivers, the Anglo-French clubs (by miles) just wonder why the hell they're flogging their guts out to act as extras in the Leinster show.

There is something to this. In Soup, the big money really was from the SA audience. Up here, it's Eng and Fra. I can envisage a position where those 3 decide they should take the (ahem) lion's share and even dispense with the likes of Wales.

imo, that can't happen without long-reaching repercussions, including fucking up the 6N, there is no way you can exclude the Irish sides from the top European competition and if you can't exclude them then you can't exclude the others

[Kawazaki]

imo, that can't happen without long-reaching repercussions, including fucking up the 6N, there is no way you can exclude the Irish sides from the top European competition and if you can't exclude them then you can't exclude the others

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

[ASMO]

i wonder if there is not a case for resuscitating the old Divisional sides in England, make them the elite clubs fed by the teams in their regions. Keep the
Prem, but Prem clubs only get to enter the nobodygivesashit cup. Divisions get to play each other home and away every season and in the Champions Cup as well. Players from the divisions can be loaned back to the Prem clubs for a limited number of games (these would not count in the Salary Cap). There would be promotion and relegation from the Prem (with no min requirements). Divisional sides will be centrally contracted and paid for by the ERFU which would get rid of the club v country advert.

Would definitely lower the number of games players are being asked to play in, and even the playing field in Europe.

[Tichtheid]

imo, that can't happen without long-reaching repercussions, including fucking up the 6N, there is no way you can exclude the Irish sides from the top European competition and if you can't exclude them then you can't exclude the others

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

To be honest, this just sounds like sour grapes, same as it did the last time.

[happytramp]

The amount of whining in this thread is embarrassing. An Irish team hasn't won the thing in five years. There were 3 French teams in the semi finals, Toulouse have won it more times than anyone... But it's just not fair because... Eh Ireland?

[Tichtheid]

The amount of whining in this thread is embarrassing. An Irish team hasn't won the thing in five years. There were 3 French teams in the semi finals, Toulouse have won it more times than anyone... But it's just not fair because... Eh Ireland?

Ulster haven't been in a final for ten years, it's 14 years since Munster got to that stage.

Of the last six Heineken Cups, Saracens won three and Exeter won one, Toulouse one and Leinster one.

[ASMO]

The amount of whining in this thread is embarrassing. An Irish team hasn't won the thing in five years. There were 3 French teams in the semi finals, Toulouse have won it more times than anyone... But it's just not fair because... Eh Ireland?

Ulster haven't been in a final for ten years, it's 14 years since Munster got to that stage.

Of the last six Heineken Cups, Saracens won three and Exeter won one.

with a 25% more salary cap and of course Saracens flying well above that too. Also bear in mind that from next season there will only be 1 Marque player allowed per team.

[Kawazaki]

imo, that can't happen without long-reaching repercussions, including fucking up the 6N, there is no way you can exclude the Irish sides from the top European competition and if you can't exclude them then you can't exclude the others

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

To be honest, this just sounds like sour grapes, same as it did the last time.

Toulon v Saracens looked like a game between two sides that were evenly matched. Toulon played better and deserved to win. Lyon v Wasps the same.

Leinster v Toulouse looked like game between a fresh squad of players against a team patched up and knackered.

Leinster were very good and deserved to win.

[PornDog]

It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

You looking for excuses for having kak teams?

Welcome aboard - it's an incredibly common reaction by pigdogs round these parts (not all of course, but the loud obnoxious ones) - if they're not winning then the reason is that the game is unfair. Re-shape the competition to suit them better - but as soon as they stop winning again its all because everything is just so unfair. Never mind that Toga is the biggest cheerleader for the most infamous financial dopers in the game, but no, it's just so unfair!

Also of course, as mentioned above, outside of Leinster where is this URC dominance coming from? Leinster are an excellent side, but no, they can't be better than English sides so therefore they must have an unfair advantage!

I always love hearing this from English fans - so long as they focus on how unfair everything is instead of learning how to do things right (like realising that squad rotation is necessary and there's a skill to getting it right*), the longer they'll externalise their failings and the longer they'll suffer them, and the heartier I will laugh at them. Unfortunately though some Munster heads have taken up that baton with regard to their youth development failings and that pisses me off no end because it affects the Irish team - but hey ho!


* I do think a lot of teams are slowly getting on board with this - Ugo Monye mentioned some time ago in comms (could have been towards the end of last season) that Gluoucester had used something like 45 players over the course of the year A lot of fans still have their heads buried in the sand though.

[laurent]

Canal + boast 500 000 viewership for the televised stuff (all games)

Pro D2 is also televised to a lesser degree last year final had > 1000000 spectators

Nationale (3rd div) also televised can't get numbers but this one is FTA