Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[PornDog]

No - the Sefton one was wildly reported at the time though.

Murray's one I got myself - the local Limerick newspaper had am article up for about 2 hours in the wake of his contract announcement before taking it down. I'd imagine that was a good indicator of its accuracy.

Ah. Guesswork. :-)

Always going to be an element of that with IRFU contracts, but there's some reason behind them rather than just plucking figures out of thin air like Toga.

So I prefer 'estimate' to 'guess'

Excuse the typos - on my phone

[Kawazaki]

EPS/International Player Credits up to £80,000 per player capped at £400,000 – to cover player absence during international periods;

That is extraordinary. Itoje earns £825k a year. The RFU have him for about 13/14 weeks per season to play in 10-12 internationals and in return they pay Saracens £80,000 for that access or 9.7% of his salary. Assuming he's not injured, he's then allowed to play no more than 18-20 games for Saracens in the Premiership (22 matches plus playoffs) and European competition (6-9 matches).

In the time when Itoje is playing for England, Saracens will be paying him a salary of about £275k. Less the £80k they get back and Saracens are subsidising the RFU a cool £195k every year just on that single player. You can double it for Farrell.

It's a great deal for the RFU.

[Kawazaki]

No - the Sefton one was wildly reported at the time though.

Murray's one I got myself - the local Limerick newspaper had am article up for about 2 hours in the wake of his contract announcement before taking it down. I'd imagine that was a good indicator of its accuracy.

Ah. Guesswork. :-)

Always going to be an element of that with IRFU contracts, but there's some reason behind them rather than just plucking figures out of thin air like Toga.

So I prefer 'estimate' to 'guess'

Excuse the typos - on my phone

Listening to a podcast earlier praising the performance of Molony. They thought he was a kid but then looked him up and asked how could Leinster keep a player that good on the payroll? He's 28, uncapped and been with Leinster since 2015 and that was his first HEC game since 2018.

Is he being paid McDonald's money as well?

[weegie01]

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

That is similar to what the Scottish boys get. I remember one Scottish U20 team where the English based boys were on £20kish, and the one French based player was on 40k Euro. I can't recall what the Welsh boys were on, but I am pretty sure they were in the £20k region (one of my sons studied in Wales and played with a couple of Welsh U20 players).

On your second point, a few years back I was watching a Scottish Schools U18 semi where there were 4 scouts from English clubs present.

[petej]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

Frog info on the cap here.

For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits no overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.
For the 2021-22 Salary Cap Year, the level is being reduced to £5,000,000 with the same credits, save for the total EPS/International Player Credits is capped at £400,000.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... .09.21.pdf

The cap might have dropped but tigers have essentially dropped a shitload of cash on pollard who won't be part of that cap

[Camroc2]

Ah. Guesswork. :-)

Always going to be an element of that with IRFU contracts, but there's some reason behind them rather than just plucking figures out of thin air like Toga.

So I prefer 'estimate' to 'guess'

Excuse the typos - on my phone

Listening to a podcast earlier praising the performance of Molony. They thought he was a kid but then looked him up and asked how could Leinster keep a player that good on the payroll? He's 28, uncapped and been with Leinster since 2015 and that was his first HEC game since 2018.

Is he being paid McDonald's money as well?

Probably somewhere about € 120k pa.

But then I explained all this to you last week on PR when you kicked off after Leinster thrashed Leicester.

[ASMO]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

Frog info on the cap here.

For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits no overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.
For the 2021-22 Salary Cap Year, the level is being reduced to £5,000,000 with the same credits, save for the total EPS/International Player Credits is capped at £400,000.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... .09.21.pdf

The cap might have dropped but tigers have essentially dropped a shitload of cash on pollard who won't be part of that cap

Also they are dropping the Marque player allowances from 2 to 1 which i think will hurt clubs a lot.

[JM2K6]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

Frog info on the cap here.

For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits no overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.
For the 2021-22 Salary Cap Year, the level is being reduced to £5,000,000 with the same credits, save for the total EPS/International Player Credits is capped at £400,000.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... .09.21.pdf

The cap might have dropped but tigers have essentially dropped a shitload of cash on pollard who won't be part of that cap

Also they are dropping the Marque player allowances from 2 to 1 which i think will hurt clubs a lot.

No, not really: "Excluded players will reduce to one player, except for where a club has a current contract in place for two excluded players. In that scenario, both players may remain as excluded players until the first of their current contracts expire."

Hence the scramble to get players on new contracts

[PornDog]

Ah. Guesswork. :-)

Always going to be an element of that with IRFU contracts, but there's some reason behind them rather than just plucking figures out of thin air like Toga.

So I prefer 'estimate' to 'guess'

Excuse the typos - on my phone

Listening to a podcast earlier praising the performance of Molony. They thought he was a kid but then looked him up and asked how could Leinster keep a player that good on the payroll? He's 28, uncapped and been with Leinster since 2015 and that was his first HEC game since 2018.

Is he being paid McDonald's money as well?

1. Molony isn't how you spell Sexton and McDonalds isn't how you spell "more than €800k" which is what I was giving out about you making up.

2. I have no idea what Molony is on, but I'd be amazed if it was more than €200k (if and when he gets called up to Ireland though he will get additional pay as he's not on a central contract)

[Kawazaki]

The Leinster accounts are so opaque. Smoke, mirrors and guesswork.

[fishfoodie]

The Leinster accounts are so opaque. Smoke, mirrors and guesswork.

Just like Sarries, Bath, Wasps, Sale, Bristol et al; you should like that ?

[Kawazaki]

The Leinster accounts are so opaque. Smoke, mirrors and guesswork.

Just like Sarries, Bath, Wasps, Sale, Bristol et al; you should like that ?

No, absolutely nothing like them.

[fishfoodie]

The Leinster accounts are so opaque. Smoke, mirrors and guesswork.

Just like Sarries, Bath, Wasps, Sale, Bristol et al; you should like that ?

No, absolutely nothing like them.

Surrrrrrrre; they relegated them for shits & giggles.

[Kawazaki]

Just like Sarries, Bath, Wasps, Sale, Bristol et al; you should like that ?

No, absolutely nothing like them.

Surrrrrrrre; they relegated them for shits & giggles.

Yes, because a/ a cap exists, and b/ there are people who enforce it. Leinster have no checks and balances and nobody to regulate them even if they did. That's as opaque as it gets.

[fishfoodie]

No, absolutely nothing like them.

Surrrrrrrre; they relegated them for shits & giggles.

Yes, because a/ a cap exists, and b/ there are people who enforce it. Leinster have no checks and balances and nobody to regulate them even if they did. That's as opaque as it gets.

But the IRFU have to remain solvent, that's the cap !

[Kawazaki]

Surrrrrrrre; they relegated them for shits & giggles.

Yes, because a/ a cap exists, and b/ there are people who enforce it. Leinster have no checks and balances and nobody to regulate them even if they did. That's as opaque as it gets.

But the IRFU have to remain solvent, that's the cap !

Underwritten by the Irish government.

[PornDog]

Once again Toga - your imagination is a not a valid source of information.

Unless you're talking to your psychiatrist.

[Kawazaki]

Once again Toga - your imagination is a not a valid source of information.

Unless you're talking to your psychiatrist.

Commenting on the accounts, IRFU CEO, Philip Browne said,

“COVID 19 has had an enormous impact on the IRFU. While our deficit has been reduced to €10million in this period, the Union would have experienced a loss of over €43million had we not had the assistance of the government and the funding from the CVC deal with PRO14. Irish Rugby thanks the government, and Sport Ireland, for its support.

[Camroc2]

Once again Toga - your imagination is a not a valid source of information.

Unless you're talking to your psychiatrist.

Commenting on the accounts, IRFU CEO, Philip Browne said,

“COVID 19 has had an enormous impact on the IRFU. While our deficit has been reduced to €10million in this period, the Union would have experienced a loss of over €43million had we not had the assistance of the government and the funding from the CVC deal with PRO14. Irish Rugby thanks the government, and Sport Ireland, for its support.

It was the covid furlough scheme, Toga, similar to the one undertaken by the UK, and most other European countries. And was open to all companies in Ireland.

[weegie01]

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

Why is this a problem? Off the top of my head I can't think of any cross border competition where clubs / individuals from different countries do not have variations in their resources. It is pretty typical for sports in different countries to be structured and resourced in the way that they deem right for them, which may be similar to other countries, and may not be. The net result is that competitors / teams coming into trans border sport are rarely on a level playing field. Why should we expect rugby to be any different?

Rugby in England is run in the way that suits English rugby. The same is true of Ireland. If that results in better results for one then it is up to the other to reconsider their priorities and change they way they operate to close the gap. Or of course, accept things as they are.

[Kawazaki]

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

Why is this a problem? Off the top of my head I can't think of any cross border competition where clubs / individuals from different countries do not have variations in their resources. It is pretty typical for sports in different countries to be structured and resourced in the way that they deem right for them, which may be similar to other countries, and may not be. The net result is that competitors / teams coming into trans border sport are rarely on a level playing field. Why should we expect rugby to be any different?

Rugby in England is run in the way that suits English rugby. The same is true of Ireland. If that results in better results for one then it is up to the other to reconsider their priorities and change they wat they operate to cloes th gap. Or of course, accept things as they are.

What if the English and French clubs decide that the HEC isn't in their best interests?

[Camroc2]

The real reason for Toga's unhealthy interest in Irish rugby finances is simply that premiership clubs keep losing to Irish ones. Munster, Leinster and Ulster played Premiership teams 9 times this season. The Irish teams beat the English teams 8 games to 1(Munster lost to Exeter in QF 1st leg). The average score was 33-14 over those 9 games.
His logic is quite simply that for this to happen, "the Paddies" have to be cheating.

[Uncle fester]

Once again Toga - your imagination is a not a valid source of information.

Unless you're talking to your psychiatrist.

Commenting on the accounts, IRFU CEO, Philip Browne said,

“COVID 19 has had an enormous impact on the IRFU. While our deficit has been reduced to €10million in this period, the Union would have experienced a loss of over €43million had we not had the assistance of the government and the funding from the CVC deal with PRO14. Irish Rugby thanks the government, and Sport Ireland, for its support.

This is mick mannock level thick.

[PornDog]

Once again Toga - your imagination is a not a valid source of information.

Unless you're talking to your psychiatrist.

Commenting on the accounts, IRFU CEO, Philip Browne said,

“COVID 19 has had an enormous impact on the IRFU. While our deficit has been reduced to €10million in this period, the Union would have experienced a loss of over €43million had we not had the assistance of the government and the funding from the CVC deal with PRO14. Irish Rugby thanks the government, and Sport Ireland, for its support.

This is mick mannock level thick.

I was just about to say - either he's on the troll thinking himself ever so clever, or else he's properly in the PR loony level of Mick/Bimbo/Silver et al.

[weegie01]

The problem is that we have a competition that is marketed as the elite level in the NH outside test matches which contains teams with vastly different structures and resources to compete, especially in the knockout stages. It favours the way the Irish teams, particularly Leinster, fund, resource, plan, condition and load their players that it might actually be more of a safety concern than a commercial one.

In short, we clearly haven't got an equitable competition and the URC is little better. If the South African sides do the same trick then the URC and HEC will be little more than a development competition, the kind of thing teams play in preseason.

Why is this a problem? Off the top of my head I can't think of any cross border competition where clubs / individuals from different countries do not have variations in their resources. It is pretty typical for sports in different countries to be structured and resourced in the way that they deem right for them, which may be similar to other countries, and may not be. The net result is that competitors / teams coming into trans border sport are rarely on a level playing field. Why should we expect rugby to be any different?

Rugby in England is run in the way that suits English rugby. The same is true of Ireland. If that results in better results for one then it is up to the other to reconsider their priorities and change they wat they operate to cloes th gap. Or of course, accept things as they are.

What if the English and French clubs decide that the HEC isn't in their best interests?

What if you respond to the point being made?

[Kawazaki]

Who pays back the money?

[Kawazaki]

Why is this a problem? Off the top of my head I can't think of any cross border competition where clubs / individuals from different countries do not have variations in their resources. It is pretty typical for sports in different countries to be structured and resourced in the way that they deem right for them, which may be similar to other countries, and may not be. The net result is that competitors / teams coming into trans border sport are rarely on a level playing field. Why should we expect rugby to be any different?

Rugby in England is run in the way that suits English rugby. The same is true of Ireland. If that results in better results for one then it is up to the other to reconsider their priorities and change they wat they operate to cloes th gap. Or of course, accept things as they are.

What if the English and French clubs decide that the HEC isn't in their best interests?

What if you respond to the point being made?

The HEC isn't a competition between national unions, that's the 6Ns. The English and French clubs have to wipe their own face.

[Tichtheid]

This is mick mannock level thick.

I was just about to say - either he's on the troll thinking himself ever so clever, or else he's properly in the PR loony level of Mick/Bimbo/Silver et al.

He's an "Alpha Troll"

He told us so himself and you can't argue with facts like that.

[weegie01]

What if the English and French clubs decide that the HEC isn't in their best interests?

What if you respond to the point being made?

The HEC isn't a competition between national unions, that's the 6Ns. The English and French clubs have to wipe their own face.

No one has said it is.

[Kawazaki]

What if you respond to the point being made?

The HEC isn't a competition between national unions, that's the 6Ns. The English and French clubs have to wipe their own face.

No one has said it is.

You were talking about countries structuring their domestic competitions to best suit what works best for that country. The RFU don't run the English clubs.

[weegie01]

The HEC isn't a competition between national unions, that's the 6Ns. The English and French clubs have to wipe their own face.

No one has said it is.

You were talking about countries structuring their domestic competitions to beat suit what works best for that country. The RFU don't run the English clubs.

No I did not. What I did say was that rugby in England is run the way that suits England. I never mentioned domestic competitions or the RFU as they are both just components of the wider 'rugby in England'.

[Kawazaki]

No one has said it is.

You were talking about countries structuring their domestic competitions to beat suit what works best for that country. The RFU don't run the English clubs.

No I did not. What I did say was that rugby in England is run the way that suits England. I never mentioned domestic competitions or the RFU as they are both just components of the wider 'rugby in England'.

And as I told you, the clubs in England will do what's in the best interests of the clubs in England which is much more aligned to what's also in the best interests for the French clubs as well.

A short-format Anglo-French cup might be their solution if they feel the HEC is too uneven due to the salary cap restrictions and demands of the GP and T14.

[TheFrog]

Kerr-Barlow is out for the final. Huge blow for La Rochelle, he is the player that settled West.

[RichieRich89]

You were talking about countries structuring their domestic competitions to beat suit what works best for that country. The RFU don't run the English clubs.

No I did not. What I did say was that rugby in England is run the way that suits England. I never mentioned domestic competitions or the RFU as they are both just components of the wider 'rugby in England'.

And as I told you, the clubs in England will do what's in the best interests of the clubs in England which is much more aligned to what's also in the best interests for the French clubs as well.

A short-format Anglo-French cup might be their solution if they feel the HEC is too uneven due to the salary cap restrictions and demands of the GP and T14.

Is there much French concern about the current format and having to contend with Irish teams? They have consistently been getting teams into the latter stages of the competition, and winning outright a reasonable amount of the time.

[Kawazaki]

Kerr-Barlow is out for the final. Huge blow for La Rochelle, he is the player that settled West.

Is there much French concern about the current format and having to contend with Irish teams? They have consistently been getting teams into the latter stages of the competition, and winning outright a reasonable amount of the time.

La Rochelle have got a must win T14 match on Saturday against Stade Francais.

Leinster play Munster in the URC.

Compare the teams that play on Saturday with those that played the semi-final.

[CM11]

And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

[weegie01]

You were talking about countries structuring their domestic competitions to beat suit what works best for that country. The RFU don't run the English clubs.

No I did not. What I did say was that rugby in England is run the way that suits England. I never mentioned domestic competitions or the RFU as they are both just components of the wider 'rugby in England'.

And as I told you, the clubs in England will do what's in the best interests of the clubs in England which is much more aligned to what's also in the best interests for the French clubs as well.

A short-format Anglo-French cup might be their solution if they feel the HEC is too uneven due to the salary cap restrictions and demands of the GP and T14.

I pointed out what I believe to be the reality that rugby is no different from many (most) other sports. Rather than addressing that point, you invented a hypothetical situation. There is no point in developing a hypothesis to answer your hypothesis, especially since it is based on a community of interest that does not seem to exist as the French do seem to have the angst some English do.

[Tichtheid]

And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

From a quick glance through the runners and riders over the last 10 years, French teams have had four wins, as you say, plus they've had seven runners up, sixteen semi final spots and thirty quarter final places (I was trying to do this as quickly as I could, I may be one or two out but not much more than that).

I can't see the French teams going off in a huff.

[Kawazaki]

And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

[RichieRich89]

Kerr-Barlow is out for the final. Huge blow for La Rochelle, he is the player that settled West.

Is there much French concern about the current format and having to contend with Irish teams? They have consistently been getting teams into the latter stages of the competition, and winning outright a reasonable amount of the time.

La Rochelle have got a must win T14 match on Saturday against Stade Francais.

Leinster play Munster in the URC.

Compare the teams that play on Saturday with those that played the semi-final.

Maybe the must-win nature of the Top Quatorze is the reason the French had three teams in the semis versus none for the English? They are battle-hardened because every game matters because they have relegation. In comparison there's nothing riding on a lot of games in the Premiership so it doesn't prepare them for the step up to European action.

In all seriousness though comparing La Rochelle's game to Leinster's game this weekend isn't comparing like-for-like. By putting themselves in an unassailable position at the top of the league Leinster have earnt the right to manage their resources as they see fit, whereas La Rochelle are scrapping near the bottom of the play-off places. So it's an extreme example of something that is a factor, but not a big one, generally speaking, looking at Leinster's results in the Euro knockouts in 2019 (Final loss to Saracens), 2020 (QF loss to Saracens) and 2021 (SF loss to La Rochelle). Why didn't Leinster win all those times if they have such an advantage?