Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[PCPhil]

Thought this was going to a lovely thread about some jolly exciting matches over the weekend.

Whilst not having an axe to grind on this never ending discussion……. It’s the English games fault if they are not performing ‘this year’. Players didn’t perform in 6N either.

Do you see those as connected? I don't really think they are. There are plenty of England players who demonstrate better form for their clubs than the national team an there aren't many clubs that have such a concentration of England players that national team woes should be adversely affecting the club.

Only anecdotally in that when a countries club sides tend to do well the country team does seem to be strong. Maybe that is just a concentration of a number of national players at one club?
adds another log to the fire….

[Kawazaki]

Why be so coy about it? Let's do the math and try to figure out what chunk of the €48m Leinster get.

Here's some maths for you Toga - Itoje is thought to earn £800k per year from Saracens only (on the books at least).

Highest paid player at Leinster is thought to be Furlong at somewhere between €600k-€700k (including his Ireland pay, but we'll let that slide for now).

One, or both of the following MUST therefore be true if Leinster are paying more on wages than Saracens - why? Because maths is something that exists and 2+2=4

1. Leinster are massively overpaying thier lower tier players compared to Saracens
2. Leinster pay many more players than Saracens do

One or both of those thing must be true, because Sarries unquestionably pay their top players much more than Leinster do and they will obviously have to "catch up" somewhere.

There are marquee salaries allowed that are being phased out.

Both 1 and 2 can both be true.

[Tichtheid]

You do realise the figure you're using is not one that just includes salaries?

It's a performance Bimbo would be proud of, he was impervious to information too.

[CM11]

I think it's fair to say the new salary cap rules in England make it more difficult for the Premiership clubs. It's also impossible to compare like with like because of the payment structures.

What's absolutely mad though is suggesting Leinster have some sort of financial advantage over the French clubs. That's just bonkers.

[Kawazaki]

You do realise the figure you're using is not one that just includes salaries?

It's a performance Bimbo would be proud of, he was impervious to information too.

Mentioning that the IRFU spent €68m last season won't help things either.

Look, I'm just trying to find out so we can compare apples with apples. Isn't that what forums are here to do?

[Kawazaki]

I think it's fair to say the new salary cap rules in England make it more difficult for the Premiership clubs. It's also impossible to compare like with like because of the payment structures.

What's absolutely mad though is suggesting Leinster have some sort of financial advantage over the French clubs. That's just bonkers.

If you read what I've written, the main advantage over the French sides is the attrition and burnout. The GP clubs get a similar advantage too but to a much less extent.

[CM11]

I think it's fair to say the new salary cap rules in England make it more difficult for the Premiership clubs. It's also impossible to compare like with like because of the payment structures.

What's absolutely mad though is suggesting Leinster have some sort of financial advantage over the French clubs. That's just bonkers.

If you read what I've written, the main advantage over the French sides is the attrition and burnout. The GP clubs get a similar advantage too but to a much less extent.

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

[Tichtheid]

You do realise the figure you're using is not one that just includes salaries?

It's a performance Bimbo would be proud of, he was impervious to information too.

Mentioning that the IRFU spent €68m last season won't help things either.

Look, I'm just trying to find out so we can compare apples with apples. Isn't that what forums are here to do?

but that's just it, serval people have said several people that the headline figure in Ireland pays for the entire professional game, just as the £27M does in Scotland.

I had a look at the RFU accounts to get an overview on how much they spend on professional rugby, all the international teams, the management and coaches, physios, transport, accommodation etc before they get to player payments but to be honest I was losing the will to live so I gave up.

In order to compare like for like you would have to tot that up and then add in player payments plus whatever the professional clubs spend in England to get to the comparable headline figure for England.

None of the Unions or clubs are particularly open about all their spending, so it's impossible to say how much any of the four provinces in Ireland or the two prof teams in Scotland spend on players' salaries.

I've heard on the internet, take that with however much salt is necessary, that the top Scottish players are on comparable wages to their counterparts elsewhere, bar the really top earners like Itoje and Russell of course. Below that level there is a discrepancy but on the plus side their game time is managed so there is a better balance and possibly less chance of injury, certainly less chance of exhaustion.

[PornDog]

Why be so coy about it? Let's do the math and try to figure out what chunk of the €48m Leinster get.

Here's some maths for you Toga - Itoje is thought to earn £800k per year from Saracens only (on the books at least).

Highest paid player at Leinster is thought to be Furlong at somewhere between €600k-€700k (including his Ireland pay, but we'll let that slide for now).

One, or both of the following MUST therefore be true if Leinster are paying more on wages than Saracens - why? Because maths is something that exists and 2+2=4

1. Leinster are massively overpaying thier lower tier players compared to Saracens
2. Leinster pay many more players than Saracens do

One or both of those thing must be true, because Sarries unquestionably pay their top players much more than Leinster do and they will obviously have to "catch up" somewhere.

There are marquee salaries allowed that are being phased out.

Both 1 and 2 can both be true.

Of course they can both be true - but one or both of them MUST be true for your assertion to be correct. Please tell me which of them is and how you came to this conclusion - thanks!


Owen Farrell is also on £800k odd. Eliot Daly was thought to be on £1M when he signed from Wasps, whatever the truth of that he'd be on more than Furlong. So the marquee angle wont be covering all of them.

One of the above MUST be true.......or of course you're talking bollox - that's also a possibility!

[Kawazaki]

Elliott Daly isn't on £1m. The only place I've ever read that is here, on this thread, just now.

And I answered you the first time, both can be true. We can't be any more certain then that because of the way Leinster don't publish any accounts.

[Torquemada 1420]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

You mean it's not already there?

[CM11]

Which of Farrell/Itoje wll have to leave Sarries?

[CM11]

Even I can't believe the Daly figure! If it was a three year deal, it could have been reported as a deal worth £1m.

[robmatic]

I think it's fair to say the new salary cap rules in England make it more difficult for the Premiership clubs. It's also impossible to compare like with like because of the payment structures.

What's absolutely mad though is suggesting Leinster have some sort of financial advantage over the French clubs. That's just bonkers.

If you read what I've written, the main advantage over the French sides is the attrition and burnout. The GP clubs get a similar advantage too but to a much less extent.

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

It's pretty obvious that the issue is moneybags Leinster being unfairly able to entice players from the Leinster Academy into their professional squad with overly generous salary offers.

[Torquemada 1420]

Below are the top 9 salaries in France. Saffas doing well for themselves.

1. Handré Pollard (photo, Montpellier) : 1,19 M€

2. Eben Etzebeth (RC Toulon) : 1,07 M€

3. Cheslin Kolbe (RC Toulon) : 1,01 M€

4. Finn Russell (Racing) : 1 M€

5. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing) : 926 000 €

6. Nicolás Sánchez (Stade Français) : 665 000 €

7. Morgan Parra (ASM) : 650 000 €

8. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse) : 600 000 €

9. Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) : 600 000 €

Yup. And other than Dupont, both France and T14 could happily do without all those players. Aside from Etzebeth, none of the others is even in the top 50 players in France IMHO and several of them not even in the top 100 (now).

[CM11]

If you read what I've written, the main advantage over the French sides is the attrition and burnout. The GP clubs get a similar advantage too but to a much less extent.

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

It's pretty obvious that the issue is moneybags Leinster being unfairly able to entice players from the Leinster Academy into their professional squad with overly generous salary offers.

Yup!

[Torquemada 1420]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

Because the careful choice of a non rugby playing country makes that all sound innocuous whereas the reality is some nations (the PIs in particular) have been ravaged in the pro era as a consequence.

Sneeca and I discussed this (in emails) back around 2001 and came to the idea that any rugby pro should have to declare at a certain age (we chose 18) which country he was going to represent if he reached intl selection standard (of course, he had to be eligible at that point).

[JM2K6]

Are you guys ever going to learn or shall we just invite Jake over to mod this place too

[JM2K6]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

Because the careful choice of a non rugby playing country makes that all sound innocuous whereas the reality is some nations (the PIs in particular) have been ravaged in the pro era as a consequence.

Sneeca and I discussed this (in emails) back around 2001 and came to the idea that any rugby pro should have to declare at a certain age (we chose 18) which country he was going to represent if he reached intl selection standard (of course, he had to be eligible at that point).

I didn't pull that country out of thin air and nor was I cherry picking - the vast majority of the countries named on the list that I replied to are in the same boat.

[PornDog]

Elliott Daly isn't on £1m. The only place I've ever read that is here, on this thread, just now.

And I answered you the first time, both can be true. We can't be any more certain then that because of the way Leinster don't publish any accounts.

I don't think he's on £1M either, but he is on huge wedge, as confirmed by Dallaglio who said they offered him the largest contract they had ever done at that time and were outbid.

You haven't answered at all - you've dodged

One of them MUST be true for your assertion to be correct - which one is (or both are) and explain your logic for believing so. Your assertion CANNOT be true without it - because maths exists!

Saying they both CAN be true does not support your assertion - at least one of them MUST be true or else you are talking bollox.

This is very straight forward logic Toga.

[Torquemada 1420]

Why be so coy about it? Let's do the math and try to figure out what chunk of the €48m Leinster get.

[CM11]

Are you guys ever going to learn or shall we just invite Jake over to mod this place too

Sorry, sir.

[PornDog]

I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll

sorry JM

[Torquemada 1420]

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

In France, there are 14 clubs and if there are 30 intls (and their salaries are no paid for by the FFR anyway), and these are concentrated in 3 or 4 clubs (which they are), then the others HAVE to spend in order to be able to compete or risk relegation and oblivion. Sure, some changes in the structure should happen - I agree there should be fewer games: not necessarily clubs because an A and B system, which existed before, could be engineered to have a top 16 and far fewer games.

[Kawazaki]

Elliott Daly isn't on £1m. The only place I've ever read that is here, on this thread, just now.

And I answered you the first time, both can be true. We can't be any more certain then that because of the way Leinster don't publish any accounts.

I don't think he's on £1M either, but he is on huge wedge, as confirmed by Dallaglio who said they offered him the largest contract they had ever done at that time and were outbid.

You haven't answered at all - you've dodged

One of them MUST be true for your assertion to be correct - which one is (or both are) and explain your logic for believing so. Your assertion CANNOT be true without it - because maths exists!

Saying they both CAN be true does not support your assertion - at least one of them MUST be true or else you are talking bollox.

This is very straight forward logic Toga.

Ok, you tell me how much of the IRFU budget Leinster gets the benefit of in terms of salaries to test players, central grants plus how much Leinster alone generates in income from ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship, corporate etc. Then we can add what Leinster players recieve in salary topups from Irish millionaires and then we can even amortise in the tax bung as well.

[CM11]

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

In France, there are 14 clubs and if there are 30 intls (and their salaries are no paid for by the FFR anyway), and these are concentrated in 3 or 4 clubs (which they are), then the others HAVE to spend in order to be able to compete or risk relegation and oblivion. Sure, some changes in the structure should happen - I agree there should be fewer games: not necessarily clubs because an A and B system, which existed before, could be engineered to have a top 16 and far fewer games.

The IRFU isn't picking up the tab for all international players. They have some on central contract but not many, think it's fewer than 15 now. As far as I know there is an agreed amount that Leinster compensate the IRFU for use of any central contract players. Leinster then have the rest of their squad and academy to pay so no, wage bill isn't zero.

It's 4 teams we draw from not three but agreed that the condensation of internationals gives us an advantage, as stated above.

You say the FFR don't pay salaries but you're not saying that the FFR don't pay the clubs, are you? And don't pay match fees?

To give you an example, let's say Sexton is on 600k (no idea and I'm not including any endorsements there). Leinster might pay the IRFU 200k. Sexton then gets a basic extra of 200k and finally he reaches 600k with appearances (or maybe selection in a squad, you'd need to know contract details).

In the UK, allegedly Itoje is on 800k. But that doesn't include match fees. And you need to take off the 80k the RFU gives the clubs. So he's actually on over 1m, of which the club pay 720k (if I'm doing my basic maths right, there might be other deductions the club can use) meaning the RFU are covering about a quarter of his salary. Frankly they should be covering more IMO.

[JM2K6]

Are you guys ever going to learn or shall we just invite Jake over to mod this place too

Sorry, sir.

I really appreciated the actual discussion we had around eligibility and that so I'm just a bit grumpy about the last few pages! :(

[Kawazaki]

In the UK, allegedly Itoje is on 800k. But that doesn't include match fees. And you need to take off the 80k the RFU gives the clubs. So he's actually on over 1m, of which the club pay 720k (if I'm doing my basic maths right, there might be other deductions the club can use) meaning the RFU are covering about a quarter of his salary. Frankly they should be covering more IMO.

I mentioned this yesterday. Regards Itoje specifically, Saracens will pay him about £270k during periods of the seasion when he's not available to play for Saracens. England will pay him about £230k in the same periods. In those weeks (about 13 per year), Itoje earns around £500k or £38.5k per week.

It's a great deal for the RFU and Itoje.

[robmatic]

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of this. In the Proxx/URC, having your internationals concentrated in fewer teams means that teams need to recruit enough decent standard players to fill in when they have 10 players away with the national team for large chunks of the season, otherwise they end up getting beaten by Connacht etc.

[JM2K6]

In the UK, allegedly Itoje is on 800k. But that doesn't include match fees. And you need to take off the 80k the RFU gives the clubs. So he's actually on over 1m, of which the club pay 720k (if I'm doing my basic maths right, there might be other deductions the club can use) meaning the RFU are covering about a quarter of his salary. Frankly they should be covering more IMO.

Are you sure about the match fees? I'm looking at the current salary cap legislation and appearance fees are not mentioned as an exclusion. I don't know if a) players are even paid them at club level, and b) that they're not included in the cap if they do exist.

Definition of Salary
3.1. “Remuneration” means any advantage, allowance, benefit in kind, bonus, expense, financial
or other benefit, incentive, income, opportunity, remuneration, reward, salary, or gift.


so under Permitted Remuneration (rather than Excluded Remuneration)

"1.3. A bonus that is provided for in the Standard Form Player Contract."

That says to me that any sort of bonus like appearance fees or performance bonuses (try scoring, etc) would all be in the salary cap. Which I would expect.

Unless you meant England international match fees, in which case yeah, whatever

also I don't think you can say the 80k the RFU gives Saracens for Itoje changes what Itoje's paid. If he's on 800k and the RFU pay Saracens 80k, he's still on 800k...

[PCPhil]

This thread has the potential for a lot of guys to raise their posting numbers. Maybe it should be stickied?

[Kawazaki]

On a more general note on salaries, I think the England match fee is far too high, egregiously so. I assume they can afford to pay so high because they pay so little to the clubs for them (£80k per season no matter how many tests). I'd much prefer a back-ended deal where the match fee is more in line with the other T1 nations but with a bigger win bonus that takes the fee up to around the level of is now.

[Torquemada 1420]

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of this. In the Proxx/URC, having your internationals concentrated in fewer teams means that teams need to recruit enough decent standard players to fill in when they have 10 players away with the national team for large chunks of the season, otherwise they end up getting beaten by Connacht etc.

No. They don't. As had been repeatedly pointed out, the URC (and its predecessors) is such a weak comp that the Irish sides have largely rested their key players (incl intls) for all but big games.

[CM11]

JMK

Was talking English match fee.

And the point was to separate how much of Itoje's earnings the RFU pay and how much Sarries pay.

Finally, given he's probably the marquee player it's moot but if he wasn't, it'd be 720k counting towards the cap not 800k.

[Torquemada 1420]

Fine, I'll rephrase:

"What's absolutely mad is suggesting Leinster are on par with the French clubs in terms of financial clout. That's just bonkers."

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

In France, there are 14 clubs and if there are 30 intls (and their salaries are no paid for by the FFR anyway), and these are concentrated in 3 or 4 clubs (which they are), then the others HAVE to spend in order to be able to compete or risk relegation and oblivion. Sure, some changes in the structure should happen - I agree there should be fewer games: not necessarily clubs because an A and B system, which existed before, could be engineered to have a top 16 and far fewer games.

The IRFU isn't picking up the tab for all international players. They have some on central contract but not many, think it's fewer than 15 now. As far as I know there is an agreed amount that Leinster compensate the IRFU for use of any central contract players. Leinster then have the rest of their squad and academy to pay so no, wage bill isn't zero.

It's 4 teams we draw from not three but agreed that the condensation of internationals gives us an advantage, as stated above.

You say the FFR don't pay salaries but you're not saying that the FFR don't pay the clubs, are you? And don't pay match fees?

To give you an example, let's say Sexton is on 600k (no idea and I'm not including any endorsements there). Leinster might pay the IRFU 200k. Sexton then gets a basic extra of 200k and finally he reaches 600k with appearances (or maybe selection in a squad, you'd need to know contract details).

In the UK, allegedly Itoje is on 800k. But that doesn't include match fees. And you need to take off the 80k the RFU gives the clubs. So he's actually on over 1m, of which the club pay 720k (if I'm doing my basic maths right, there might be other deductions the club can use) meaning the RFU are covering about a quarter of his salary. Frankly they should be covering more IMO.

I don't want to get into a bun fight here, posturing on moral high grounds. France (and England) have made their own systems and if there are elements that are extremely broken (esp. too many games), then the blame can only lie at one place.

What is clear is there is an optimum level of pro clubs in any country for the number of pro players there are and, to a lesser extent (which would be zero extent in absentia of player mobility across national boundaries) economic resource.
- Ire has hit the sweet spot.
- Wal have f**ked it all up and now have too few and want to compound the problem.
- Sco has too few but that's largely down to too few playing numbers.
- NZ had it probably perfect for a long time. Some signs now that they are one Soup team too many.
- Aus had it spot on until they got greedy and, as I warned (which kept raising the ire of Aussie posters), it would turn to sh*t because they would end up diluting themselves into oblivion
- Fra has too many......... but it just about floats down to the insane amount of money thrown in by wealthy owners
- Eng is a much lesser version of France
- SA is a basket case and who the f**k knows what would be ideal there. Sheer playing numbers means as long as the intl manager is not brain dead, they will always be competitive.


{EDIT} Bit in red. Not really. You tried to can Connacht and it still gets nowhere near the funding the other 3 enjoy. Consequently the draw from there is what, Aki?

[JM2K6]

JMK

Was talking English match fee.

And the point was to separate how much of Itoje's earnings the RFU pay and how much Sarries pay.

Finally, given he's probably the marquee player it's moot but if he wasn't, it'd be 720k counting towards the cap not 800k.

Understood. However, you're a little bit off on the details:

As of 21/22, there's a homegrown player credit fund of £50k max per player (£600k total available to each club), so Itoje would qualify there - but we don't know how much because Saracens will just be getting the full £600k like most sides so it's not a direct 1:1 payment

As of next season, the 80k the RFU pay Saracens for Itoje will be a similar story - international player credits will be capped at £400k which is 5 players worth. Saracens have Mako, George, Itoje, Isiekwe, Farrell, Daly, Malins, Earl, and maybe Billy as guys who are in line to be in the EPS, albeit some are less likely than others.

As you say, if Itoje is one of the excluded players then it's a moot point as he's an exception to the rule, and tbh it shows the benefit of that system. He's one of the outstanding players in the world and his club should be able to offer him something appropriate as a result. Quins should be able to keep hold of Marcus Smith. Sale should be able to keep hold of Tom Curry.

[JM2K6]

Actually, I'm missing something fundamental here. Are the credits an actual payment or just a salary cap exclusion? I don't actually know if the RFU is still paying clubs or if it's purely based on salary cap exclusions.

[CM11]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

[JM2K6]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

[CM11]

Torque

We looked at disbanding Connacht a long time ago for cost cutting but they've since grown into a more successful team, making the HEC and winning the league.

They had 4 players in the six nations squad plus a development player. 3 in the 23.