Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[petej]

I had a quick look and I can't find anything concrete on injuries, but it was only the one Google.

It would be interesting to find out the frequency of injuries in the three pro leagues in Europe and also in the Soup.

This is just anecdotal, but I'm not under the impression that Hoggy, Finn, Chris Harris, Johnny Gray or any starters in the Scotland side who are starters for their clubs are getting injured more than their counterparts who play in Scotland and are therefore subject to mandatory rest periods.

Anyone at Loughborough here looking for a PhD project?

So many variables as well. Coaches will have an impact on injuries as well. More modern coaches doing less contact and flogging of players should lead to less injuries. Eddie Jones seems to be horrific for player injuries. I would expect that Glasgow under Townsend had less injuries than Edinburgh under cockhead.

[petej]

As an aside, but related point, I was in M&S the other day for the first time in ages and as I walked up the stairs I was faced with a ten foot poster of Maro Itoje in a gray linen suit.

His frame can carry it off a lot better than I could.

Considering the forces that props are put under surely bespoke tailoring is essential.

[Tichtheid]

You know that your RWC statement is silly....

It really isn't any more silly than three days and several pages of chat based on a purely speculative premise.


Ireland, for an island of around six and a half million people, is doing pretty well in rugby terms. It is the main professional sport and has, I believe, even been giving the GAA a run for its money in the western heartlands - I'm open to correction on that of course.

[Tichtheid]

As an aside, but related point, I was in M&S the other day for the first time in ages and as I walked up the stairs I was faced with a ten foot poster of Maro Itoje in a gray linen suit.

His frame can carry it off a lot better than I could.

Considering the forces that props are put under surely bespoke tailoring is essential.

In my mind I look like James Bond when I put on a suit.

In reality I look more like the heavies guarding the door that he dispatches with relative ease before getting on with his day.

[petej]

Question for Irish posters - is rugby pretty much your national sport at this point?
I can see Ireland turning into the NH New Zealand with Leinster the Crusaders.

[Kawazaki]

Ireland, for an island of around six and a half million people, is doing pretty well in rugby terms.

You're describing New Zealand aren't you?

Sorry, as you were, NZ's population is 5 million.

[Tichtheid]

Ireland, for an island of around six and a half million people, is doing pretty well in rugby terms.

You're describing New Zealand aren't you?

Sorry, as you were, NZ's population is 5 million.

You never know, on current trajectory....

They are three all in their last six matches.

[laurent]

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Fre clubs, are notoriously difficult to coach by anyone other than Fre coaches. Even today, there are many where there is a resistance to aspects of professionalism such as fitness and repetitional practice. Richards only lasted a year or so at Grenoble before being ousted by the players and that was all down to their dislike of hard work. I can imagine Jackman suffered similar push back.

Considering he was captaining the side 1 year and more or less sacked the next ... I'd trust the French Player. Also I was a 'tarf Member while he coached us.

Player with axe to grind is not something new. Maybe Jackman is a d*ck but Richards has a decent record in coaching so Grenoble has form.

His record speaks for him rose to head coach at Grenoble, was sacked went to Wales got sacked...
I know Jackman ... not very well but more than you, he currently coaches at college level in Ireland and appears a lot on radio. I doubt he has much if any knowledge of the Leinster admin ...

[Kawazaki]

Ireland, for an island of around six and a half million people, is doing pretty well in rugby terms.

You're describing New Zealand aren't you?

Sorry, as you were, NZ's population is 5 million.

You never know, on current trajectory....

They are three all in their last six matches.

I'm fairly confident I do know actually.

[PornDog]

Tichteid -
There are traditional GAA areas where rugby has made great inroads in recent years, such as West Cork. There are also traditional rugby area that are doing shite while GAA is thriving - such as Limerick.

Petej -
Nowhere near it, despite rugby having made big gains. GAA is still a monster and soccer would still have massively greater participation numbers (but much fewer bums on seats domestically - both in grounds and in front of TV - the English clubs get all of that attention).

The fact both GAA and domestic soccer are both summer sports has probably helped rugby as well. A peaceful co-existence has also developed. Whereas before you could literally be banned from the GAA for life is you attended a football or rugby match, my daughter's coach actually suggested they take up rugby in the winter as it would help them with a lot of their skills! Despite the recent entente that really pleasantly surprised me (and despite my urging she has no interest in rugby ).

[Kawazaki]

Bernard Jackman saying he thinks Leinster spend a huge amount on their squad has really set off the alarm bells hasn't it. Smearing and demeaning his achievements, they'll be calling for him to be blacklisted and deplatformed next.

I do enjoy seeing biases unfold though, it's fascinating.

[Torquemada 1420]

Considering he was captaining the side 1 year and more or less sacked the next ... I'd trust the French Player. Also I was a 'tarf Member while he coached us.

Player with axe to grind is not something new. Maybe Jackman is a d*ck but Richards has a decent record in coaching so Grenoble has form.

His record speaks for him rose to head coach at Grenoble, was sacked went to Wales got sacked...
I know Jackman ... not very well but more than you, he currently coaches at college level in Ireland and appears a lot on radio. I doubt he has much if any knowledge of the Leinster admin ...

Have no idea what he knows about Leinster but given the apparent opaqueness of their financial dealings, who does? My point was simply that players complaining about coaches is hardly news. Especially in France.

[TheFrog]

Who cares about how much Leinster spend on their players?

They are an awesome squad and it is good for rugby, because the standard they play at is a delight to watch.

Ireland got their acts together and now have arguably one of the top 3 sides in the world. What did they do better than Wales, which used to be the temple of rugby in NH, I don't know. But it works and they deserve credit for that.

France is finally getting its acts together while preserving the club culture that is at the heart of the sport. The only frustrating side of this - and potentially dangerous for players - is that, as it is, the combination of Top 14, Champions Cup and Internationals is demanding too much from the best players. Top 14 is a grind and in my opinion setting back the progress of our stars who have a tough balancing act between reaching a peak for important times of the year (6N, finals and Internationals) and lasting through 4 to 6 games more than other top level players in the South Hemisphere or Ireland.

Don't know if France will find a way around this. Games are revenues and clubs won't let go easily.

[CM11]

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

I think they would probably do quite well in the T14 with their rotation policy, they've got a lot of quality in their wider squad and the weaker sides they put out never capitulate away from home.

Of course, this is speculation, but my take is they'd always be there or thereabouts
- which is somewhat different to winning pretty much every season at a canter
- and to maintain this, they would have to put out decent strength sides most of the time
- and then we'd see what impact the attrition would have upon both Leinster and Ireland in terms of fatigue and injuries

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

[Camroc2]

I think they would probably do quite well in the T14 with their rotation policy, they've got a lot of quality in their wider squad and the weaker sides they put out never capitulate away from home.

Of course, this is speculation, but my take is they'd always be there or thereabouts
- which is somewhat different to winning pretty much every season at a canter
- and to maintain this, they would have to put out decent strength sides most of the time
- and then we'd see what impact the attrition would have upon both Leinster and Ireland in terms of fatigue and injuries

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

That would be the 89 - 7 Montpelier, CM ?

[Torquemada 1420]

Ireland got their acts together and now have arguably one of the top 3 sides in the world. What did they do better than Wales, which used to be the temple of rugby in NH, I don't know. But it works and they deserve credit for that.

Easy. Ireland focused on ground up. WRU focused on the WRU to the exclusion of all else.

[Torquemada 1420]

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

I'm afraid most commentators outside of Ireland would disagree with this. I can't be arsed to requote this stuff (it's in this thread and plenty of others here and on Jakedom over the years) but for one example from the Torygraph a week or so ago: paraphrasing their discussion of Leicester v Leinster "Leicester players were flogging guts out in hard fought win against x last week whilst Leinster's key players spent the last few weeks around the pool, having massages".

And, without you realising it, you just reinforced the argument. If you look at the pattern of results, MH was nowhere for the first half of the season and then got on a run in the second half. That's because T14 is tough: you back off and you get beaten. It's why sides for so long (and to an extent still do for the poorer clubs) throw away games and/or ignore Europe entirely.

[Tichtheid]

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

I'm afraid most commentators outside of Ireland would disagree with this. I can't be arsed to requote this stuff (it's in this thread and plenty of others here and on Jakedom over the years) but for one example from the Torygraph a week or so ago: paraphrasing their discussion of Leicester v Leinster "Leicester players were flogging guts out in hard fought win against x last week whilst Leinster's key players spent the last few weeks around the pool, having massages".

And, without you realising it, you just reinforced the argument. If you look at the pattern of results, MH was nowhere for the first half of the season and then got on a run in the second half. That's because T14 is tough: you back off and you get beaten. It's why sides for so long (and to an extent still do for the poorer clubs) throw away games and/or ignore Europe entirely.

That doesn't address his point, which is that the players that come in to the Leinster side are pretty good and make for a decent side even when the stars are having cocktails by the pool, Leinster don't ship 50 points away from home very often.

Some of the guys who went to South Africa with them this year will be in with a shout of first team rugby in a season or two, if not they will be shipped on to make way for the guys coming up behind them.

[PornDog]

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

I'm afraid most commentators outside of Ireland would disagree with this. I can't be arsed to requote this stuff (it's in this thread and plenty of others here and on Jakedom over the years) but for one example from the Torygraph a week or so ago: paraphrasing their discussion of Leicester v Leinster "Leicester players were flogging guts out in hard fought win against x last week whilst Leinster's key players spent the last few weeks around the pool, having massages".

And, without you realising it, you just reinforced the argument. If you look at the pattern of results, MH was nowhere for the first half of the season and then got on a run in the second half. That's because T14 is tough: you back off and you get beaten. It's why sides for so long (and to an extent still do for the poorer clubs) throw away games and/or ignore Europe entirely.

I think he was making a slightly different point than how you took him up.

Probably the two weakest sides Leinster fielded all year were the ones the sent to SA (in the weeks prior to the lead up to the Leicester game). You had what could unkindly be classed as B/C teams and could easily have come away with 2 wins - maybe a bit lucky to win them, but the point is they were competing right up to the end including being camped on the Sharks line into the red. They came away with 2 bonus points. Against two of the strongest SA sides away in SA, both of whom needed wins.

They WERE decent teams. Just because they were "B/C teams" doesn't change that fact. A good bit of that is down to structures, but most of it is down to coaching and mindset. Most weeks the teams Leinster put out are stronger than those ones.

[Camroc2]

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

I'm afraid most commentators outside of Ireland would disagree with this. I can't be arsed to requote this stuff (it's in this thread and plenty of others here and on Jakedom over the years) but for one example from the Torygraph a week or so ago: paraphrasing their discussion of Leicester v Leinster "Leicester players were flogging guts out in hard fought win against x last week whilst Leinster's key players spent the last few weeks around the pool, having massages".

And, without you realising it, you just reinforced the argument. If you look at the pattern of results, MH was nowhere for the first half of the season and then got on a run in the second half. That's because T14 is tough: you back off and you get beaten. It's why sides for so long (and to an extent still do for the poorer clubs) throw away games and/or ignore Europe entirely.

I think he was making a slightly different point than how you took him up.

Probably the two weakest sides Leinster fielded all year were the ones the sent to SA (in the weeks prior to the lead up to the Leicester game). You had what could unkindly be classed as B/C teams and could easily have come away with 2 wins - maybe a bit lucky to win them, but the point is they were competing right up to the end including being camped on the Sharks line into the red. They came away with 2 bonus points. Against two of the strongest SA sides away in SA, both of whom needed wins.

They WERE decent teams. Just because they were "B/C teams" doesn't change that fact. A good bit of that is down to structures, but most of it is down to coaching and mindset. Most weeks the teams Leinster put out are stronger than those ones.

And it was winning those two bonus points that allow Leinster to put out a not-so-strong team (I expect it to be drawn from the squad that went to SA, plus players who are leaving/retiring at the end of the season, as this is our last regular home game) this weekend, "resting" the team that beat Leicester and Toulouse.

[CM11]

Torque

Others have addressed my point. Leinster are fairly finely tuned as a squad so that all teams we put out are competitive. We have 5 losses this season, 4 of them with losing bonus points and the fifth was a 10 point loss. 3 of those losses could have gone either way in the final minutes.

I'm not for a second suggesting top 14 wouldn't be harder but the current makeup of the Leinster squad could plot a path to the final most years.

[Uncle fester]

Question for Irish posters - is rugby pretty much your national sport at this point?
I can see Ireland turning into the NH New Zealand with Leinster the Crusaders.

Not even close. GAA have been fighting back hard in the last decade. We've apparently lost Limerick to hurling and the Limerick forward has become an endangered species.

[robmatic]

Leinster put out a decent team pretty much all of the time.

And you're over egging the difficulty level there. Montpellier are leading with 8 losses and two draws. It's not like Leinster wouldn't still be able to pick some fixtures to put out a less than full strength side.

I'm afraid most commentators outside of Ireland would disagree with this. I can't be arsed to requote this stuff (it's in this thread and plenty of others here and on Jakedom over the years) but for one example from the Torygraph a week or so ago: paraphrasing their discussion of Leicester v Leinster "Leicester players were flogging guts out in hard fought win against x last week whilst Leinster's key players spent the last few weeks around the pool, having massages".

And, without you realising it, you just reinforced the argument. If you look at the pattern of results, MH was nowhere for the first half of the season and then got on a run in the second half. That's because T14 is tough: you back off and you get beaten. It's why sides for so long (and to an extent still do for the poorer clubs) throw away games and/or ignore Europe entirely.

I think he was making a slightly different point than how you took him up.

Probably the two weakest sides Leinster fielded all year were the ones the sent to SA (in the weeks prior to the lead up to the Leicester game). You had what could unkindly be classed as B/C teams and could easily have come away with 2 wins - maybe a bit lucky to win them, but the point is they were competing right up to the end including being camped on the Sharks line into the red. They came away with 2 bonus points. Against two of the strongest SA sides away in SA, both of whom needed wins.

They WERE decent teams. Just because they were "B/C teams" doesn't change that fact. A good bit of that is down to structures, but most of it is down to coaching and mindset. Most weeks the teams Leinster put out are stronger than those ones.

Yeah, that Leinster team that toured SA would probably easily one of the weaker GP/Top 14 teams (and let's be honest, the teams at the bottom of those leagues are poor).

That young Ukrainian Irish back row who got MotM against Sharks looks like he will be some player.

[CM11]

And he's still in the academy. It was his fourth pro appearance.

[Torquemada 1420]

Torque

Others have addressed my point. Leinster are fairly finely tuned as a squad so that all teams we put out are competitive. We have 5 losses this season, 4 of them with losing bonus points and the fifth was a 10 point loss. 3 of those losses could have gone either way in the final minutes.

I'm not for a second suggesting top 14 wouldn't be harder but the current makeup of the Leinster squad could plot a path to the final most years.

We might be arguing over hairs. I've acknowledged that Leinster would be at the top end of competitiveness in T14. They'll bum LaR in the final. Equally, I think you've all confirmed my contention that URC is incredibly weak: the fact that Leinster B/C almost beat the SA sides away says it all.

[laurent]

And he's still in the academy. It was his fourth pro appearance.

Good 'Tarf Stock

[Camroc2]

One game to go :

Leinster lead on 62 points.
Second, third and fourth on 56 points.
Fifth 55 points.
Sixth 53 points.
Seventh and eighth 50 points.

The word that would strike me is, competitive, rather than weak.

[happytramp]

One game to go :

Leinster lead on 62 points.
Second, third and fourth on 56 points.
Fifth 55 points.
Sixth 53 points.
Seventh and eighth 50 points.

The word that would strike me is, competitive, rather than weak.

That would be correct. While it may not have been true in the past, the addition of the SA franchises combined with the relative strength of the Irish provinces mean it's currently it's likely tougher than the T14 and the GP at the top of the table......there's still a lot of dead wood at the bottom though.

[Camroc2]

One game to go :

Leinster lead on 62 points.
Second, third and fourth on 56 points.
Fifth 55 points.
Sixth 53 points.
Seventh and eighth 50 points.

The word that would strike me is, competitive, rather than weak.

That would be correct. While it may not have been true in the past, the addition of the SA franchises combined with the relative strength of the Irish provinces mean it's currently it's likely tougher than the T14 and the GP at the top of the table......there's still a lot of dead wood at the bottom though.

And a lot of that is due to the collapse of Welsh rugby, which should be very concerning to everybody.

[JM2K6]

One game to go :

Leinster lead on 62 points.
Second, third and fourth on 56 points.
Fifth 55 points.
Sixth 53 points.
Seventh and eighth 50 points.

The word that would strike me is, competitive, rather than weak.

If it were a standard league then no doubt, but the pool system messes with it quite a bit

[CM11]

Agreed.

Not sure what the answer is. Can't give up national derbies as they still generate most interest/income but ideally we'd be playing home and away against the best sides from abroad.

[Tichtheid]

Agreed.

Not sure what the answer is. Can't give up national derbies as they still generate most interest/income but ideally we'd be playing home and away against the best sides from abroad.

Making up the fixture list can't be easy, there just isn't the room for 30 league games a season, I don't particularly like the conferences but at least the switching home and away venue for the single fixtures should even out over time.

[CM11]

The system has changed so many times between participants, number of teams and structures so I've lost track of what was done when or even how they do it now but if memory serves we had two seeded conferences at one stage, so we'd at least play some overseas teams home and away. That would be my preference.

I think that was with 14 teams though, so 19 fixtures if you don't add national derbies. With 16 teams it's 22. If you need to add the derbies plus quarters, semis and final then that's too many games (although the French would point out, that's what they play).

[weegie01]

The pool system makes it relatively harder for the clubs in the stronger pools who have more games against strong sides i.e. the Irish and SA, and easier for those in the weaker, i.e Welsh and Scottish/Italian.

So whilst it does mean the bottom clubs probably have more points than they would do otherwise, it also means the top of the league is relatively tougher.

It also means that the top sides have relatively fewer matches they can afford to rest players in as they have a lower proportion of matches against the weaker sides.

[CM11]

Fair point. 4 of our 5 losses were to Irish/SA sides.

[JM2K6]

Agreed.

Not sure what the answer is. Can't give up national derbies as they still generate most interest/income but ideally we'd be playing home and away against the best sides from abroad.

I don't think it necessarily needs an answer - I'm not opposed to conference/pool systems if they make sense. Just saying it's not quite as straightforward as pointing at the overall table and going "see! It's competitive", because as we've seen in Super Rugby you can end up with the best side from one pool looking like they're a top 3 side when in reality they're cannon fodder for 4-5 teams.

I don't watch the URC so have no dog in the race at all, whatever works best to suit the complicated requirements of a multi-national competition is the right approach.

[CM11]

It's a slightly different set up compared to Super rugby though. So currently the top 6 are the top 6 sides. 3 Irish, 3 SA.

[PornDog]

Indeed - wasn't there one year where the Lions got to the final without playing a single game in NZ?

While I wouldn't be raving about the URC's structure, it is orders of magnitude better than what Soup became.

The better teams currently have it a bit harder than others, but I'm not so against that to be honest - the real issue is for the like of Connacht and the Lions - mid table teams that have to play better teams more often than the other mid table teams.

[Camroc2]

...........and LaR's team for this weekend only has 2 of last weeks starters in the 15.

The French don't put out weak teams, oh no !

[robmatic]

...........and LaR's team for this weekend only has 2 of last weeks starters in the 15.

The French don't put out weak teams, oh no !

Ah yes, the relentless grind of the Top 14.