What's going on in Ukraine?

[fishfoodie]

There'll be no world famine - that's nonsense. Forecasts are that there'll be more or less the same amount of wheat available globally this year as last.

This talk of war weariness in the West annoys me - it comes across as a variation/continuation of the message that we need to tip-toe around in fear of annoying/insulting/irritating Russians bollox we've been listening to for years. Except instead of fearing a Russian military threat we should fear an economic one.

The financial cost to the west is more or less f*ck all and the global economic impact of the war is insignificant. The costs are being borne by the Ukrainians with their blood. The benefits for the west having the Ukrainians standing up to the Russians are huge - particular for European security.

From a western self-interest point of view - supporting the Ukrainians for as long as they request support makes sense. But most importantly, it's the right f*cking thing to do - providing support to a country being invaded and wrecked for no rational reason whatsoever by a war-mongering belligerent c*nt.

The Ukrainians - rightly - are not going to listen to foreigners telling them they should concede territory after what they've been through and the only other lever the West would have would be to withdraw support and abandon them to their fate - a morally indefensible action.

The injuries to Russia of this war, is a lot like those to the latest General, no legs, & with their balls a distant memory. In comparison, the West has an ingrown toenail.

It's like WW II, & the US V Japan; the Japanese had to either finish the war fast, or get fucked by the manufacturing might of the Americans.

The Ukrainians understand that they'll have to do the bleeding, & that's the worst of it; but it's their choice, & their choice if they are to ever trade land,for a temporary peace; because they know the Russians can't be trusted, & that's why we've ended up where we are.

The rest of the World was already changing in response to the shortages, & other impacts caused by Covid, & Countries realizing where they were vulnerable. That has now been supercharged by this conflict, & no-one is going to let themselves be put over a barrel by Putin again.

[Hellraiser]

[Hellraiser]

[Uncle fester]

Noticing that 2 Brits and a Moroccan captured by the Russians have been sentenced to be executed in a show trial.

If Putin wants the Brits to back off and stop supplying weapons to the Ukrainians, I'm not sure that this is the best way of going about it.

Probably hoping to use them as leverage.

[Uncle fester]

Unfortunately I believe Ovals and TheFrog have both summed up the situation precisely and sadly Ukraine will ultimately be let down badly. That being said I sincerely hope that I am wrong and Russia is pushed back to its borders.

Ovals wrote.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

TheFrog wrote.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

A "peace in our time" solution?

I'll put it in simple terms for you.
Putin. Cannot. Be. Trusted.

If he's not stopped here, his beady eyes will be looking up Google street view for Prague and Warsaw.

[Ovals]

Unfortunately I believe Ovals and TheFrog have both summed up the situation precisely and sadly Ukraine will ultimately be let down badly. That being said I sincerely hope that I am wrong and Russia is pushed back to its borders.

Ovals wrote.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

TheFrog wrote.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

A "peace in our time" solution?

I'll put it in simple terms for you.
Putin. Cannot. Be. Trusted.

If he's not stopped here, his beady eyes will be looking up Google street view for Prague and Warsaw.

Whichever way it works out - even if the West do gradually lose their resolve, the damage done to the Russian Military will be immense - I can't see them undertaking another such venture for the foreseeable future.

[TheFrog]

Right, I'd like to clarify that I am not in the defeatist camp here. Assessing risks and discussing potential challenges doesn't mean giving up. On the contrary, being aware of the obstacles ensures that you are prepared to deal with them.

In reference to Derritz post, yes, inflation was there before the war, driven by a crazy demand fueled by all the money injected by governments during the COVID crisis and people's eagerness to go back to a happy life, combined with a logistics nightmare with shortages of containers, and lack of human resources after thousands and thousands of people decided they had enough working and withdrew from active live.

But pretending that the fuel price increase was just marginally affected by the Russian war is wrong. Crude was around $75 a barrel in January when news of Russian troops on the Russian border started to be discussed publicly and is now at $120, that is a 60% increase in my books.

As for famine in Africa, I am not close enough to what the US or other countries may be doing to prevent it, but I know it was the number 1 concern at the IMF at the beginning of the war.

Now, I believe Europe has to stand united to help Ukraine and rhe US defeat the Russian. Putin and any Russian with expansion ambitions must learn from this war that the cost of invading a neighbor is so high that they will be deterred to give it another try.

But I do not believe the Russians will be defeated quickly on the ground, in battle. The Ukrainians may be finally starting to get superior technology to fight, but I believe the quantities provided and the weapons provided will not allow them to free their country entirely.

So, in parallel to supporting the Russian war effort, the economic war has to be intensified. And the next step has to be the gaz. And this is where I highlighted my concern with populations in countries which would be directly impacted. There is a need for governments to ready their people and explain to them how critical this war is for Europe's security and what is our duty toward the Ukrainians.


I also regret that domestic political agenda undermine the union of the European countries behind Ukraine and that includes the anti French and anti German propaganda spread by conservative papers.

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

[Hellraiser]

[Ovals]

This is rather bizarre

Putin's poo catcher !!

https://english.nv.ua/nation/traveling- ... 48903.html

[tabascoboy]

Please let this be true. Wagner are a real bunch of shits thought to have been behind some atrocities in Mali, Syria, CAR as well as Ukraine so a massive blow to at least part of their organisation would be splendid if it can be verified



This seems be additional to a strike reported last week and the sniper killing of Vladimir Andonov (who was a Buryati)

[tabascoboy]

[La soule]

Right, I'd like to clarify that I am not in the defeatist camp here. Assessing risks and discussing potential challenges doesn't mean giving up. On the contrary, being aware of the obstacles ensures that you are prepared to deal with them.

In reference to Derritz post, yes, inflation was there before the war, driven by a crazy demand fueled by all the money injected by governments during the COVID crisis and people's eagerness to go back to a happy life, combined with a logistics nightmare with shortages of containers, and lack of human resources after thousands and thousands of people decided they had enough working and withdrew from active live.

But pretending that the fuel price increase was just marginally affected by the Russian war is wrong. Crude was around $75 a barrel in January when news of Russian troops on the Russian border started to be discussed publicly and is now at $120, that is a 60% increase in my books.

As for famine in Africa, I am not close enough to what the US or other countries may be doing to prevent it, but I know it was the number 1 concern at the IMF at the beginning of the war.

Now, I believe Europe has to stand united to help Ukraine and rhe US defeat the Russian. Putin and any Russian with expansion ambitions must learn from this war that the cost of invading a neighbor is so high that they will be deterred to give it another try.

But I do not believe the Russians will be defeated quickly on the ground, in battle. The Ukrainians may be finally starting to get superior technology to fight, but I believe the quantities provided and the weapons provided will not allow them to free their country entirely.

So, in parallel to supporting the Russian war effort, the economic war has to be intensified. And the next step has to be the gaz. And this is where I highlighted my concern with populations in countries which would be directly impacted. There is a need for governments to ready their people and explain to them how critical this war is for Europe's security and what is our duty toward the Ukrainians.


I also regret that domestic political agenda undermine the union of the European countries behind Ukraine and that includes the anti French and anti German propaganda spread by conservative papers.

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

Not too sure why you feel the need to justify your posting. There will always be plenty of warriors out there watching this situation safely behind their screens and with an opinion.

Their anti French and anti German stance is nothing new and you should have got used to it by now. It is not important.

[Mahoney]

Their anti French and anti German stance is nothing new and you should have got used to it by now. It is not important.

I don't recall many anti-French & anti-German posts from derriz, fishfoodie, Biffer, Hellraiser & Uncle Fester; particularly outside the context of Ukraine.

[La soule]

Their anti French and anti German stance is nothing new and you should have got used to it by now. It is not important.

I don't recall many anti-French & anti-German posts from derriz, fishfoodie, Biffer, Hellraiser & Uncle Fester; particularly outside the context of Ukraine.

It was rhetorical, in the context of Frog's post and are you new here?

[Mahoney]

What do you mean "it was rhetorical"? You didn't ask a question.

You made a statement that the people who were taking issue with TheFrog's posts have a longstanding anti French and anti German stance.

Based on up to 19 years (dear lord...) of reading their posts I believe that statement is untrue, so I listed the people in question so that you could point me at some evidence.

[The Druid]

Unfortunately I believe Ovals and TheFrog have both summed up the situation precisely and sadly Ukraine will ultimately be let down badly. That being said I sincerely hope that I am wrong and Russia is pushed back to its borders.

Ovals wrote.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

TheFrog wrote.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

A "peace in our time" solution?

I'll put it in simple terms for you.
Putin. Cannot. Be. Trusted.

If he's not stopped here, his beady eyes will be looking up Google street view for Prague and Warsaw.

Where did I post that there should be appeasment ?
Where did I say Putler should be trusted in any way?
He should certainly be stopped here and not gain any Ukraine territory or he will have to be stopped at some time in the future and that will be even more costly than this bloodbath that he has caused.

To put it in simple terms for you.

[La soule]

What do you mean "it was rhetorical"? You didn't ask a question.

You made a statement that the people who were taking issue with TheFrog's posts have a longstanding anti French and anti German stance.

Based on up to 19 years (dear lord...) of reading their posts I believe that statement is untrue, so I listed the people in question so that you could point me at some evidence.

I don't have to point you towards anything.

Plus you cited a list of people, I did not, nor did Frog, bar a comment on Derritz and inflation.

Frog feels that he needs to defend himself, on 2 separate bored now, because he appears not to be allowed to have his own opinion on this Ukraine' situation, which simply appears a bit more nuanced, balanced and less positive than Ukraine is thrashing the Russians.

It is extremely noble of you though to defend the honour of people nobody has even mentioned

[The Druid]

Right, I'd like to clarify that I am not in the defeatist camp here. Assessing risks and discussing potential challenges doesn't mean giving up. On the contrary, being aware of the obstacles ensures that you are prepared to deal with them.

In reference to Derritz post, yes, inflation was there before the war, driven by a crazy demand fueled by all the money injected by governments during the COVID crisis and people's eagerness to go back to a happy life, combined with a logistics nightmare with shortages of containers, and lack of human resources after thousands and thousands of people decided they had enough working and withdrew from active live.

But pretending that the fuel price increase was just marginally affected by the Russian war is wrong. Crude was around $75 a barrel in January when news of Russian troops on the Russian border started to be discussed publicly and is now at $120, that is a 60% increase in my books.

As for famine in Africa, I am not close enough to what the US or other countries may be doing to prevent it, but I know it was the number 1 concern at the IMF at the beginning of the war.

Now, I believe Europe has to stand united to help Ukraine and rhe US defeat the Russian. Putin and any Russian with expansion ambitions must learn from this war that the cost of invading a neighbor is so high that they will be deterred to give it another try.

But I do not believe the Russians will be defeated quickly on the ground, in battle. The Ukrainians may be finally starting to get superior technology to fight, but I believe the quantities provided and the weapons provided will not allow them to free their country entirely.

So, in parallel to supporting the Russian war effort, the economic war has to be intensified. And the next step has to be the gaz. And this is where I highlighted my concern with populations in countries which would be directly impacted. There is a need for governments to ready their people and explain to them how critical this war is for Europe's security and what is our duty toward the Ukrainians.


I also regret that domestic political agenda undermine the union of the European countries behind Ukraine and that includes the anti French and anti German propaganda spread by conservative papers.

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

Frog. There is no need for clarification, you are a knowledgeable and decent poster it's no fault of yours if some do not take the time to read your posts correctly.

[Hellraiser]

[Hellraiser]

[derriz]

Frog feels that he needs to defend himself, on 2 separate bored now, because he appears not to be allowed to have his own opinion on this Ukraine' situation, which simply appears a bit more nuanced, balanced and less positive than Ukraine is thrashing the Russians.

I dunno why you're wading in here?

It's been a pretty reasonable exchange - for me, mostly about a disagreement of the economic impacts of the war - before you turned up with this anti-French and anti-German sh*te.

Who said he's not allowed to have his own opinion? Get a grip - it's a discussion board, everyone has different opinions, that's the point. You've been spending too much time on the other place if you view any disagreement as a flag-waving nationalistic pissing contest.

[Blake]

Please let this be true. Wagner are a real bunch of shits thought to have been behind some atrocities in Mali, Syria, CAR as well as Ukraine so a massive blow to at least part of their organisation would be splendid if it can be verified



This seems be additional to a strike reported last week and the sniper killing of Vladimir Andonov (who was a Buryati)

I really really really hope this is true. Fuck Wagner and their Nazis. Good riddance.

[Hellraiser]

[laurent]

On the Frog and La Soule reaction I suspect they are both active on the old Board With a Bunch of little englanders being little englanders.
This makes you defensive.

This place is a lot more civilised.

[Glaston]

On the Frog and La Soule reaction I suspect they are both active on the old Board With a Bunch of little englanders being little englanders.
This makes you defensive.

This place is a lot more civilised.

It's the constant little Jibes,why should it be allowed to go undefended?

Polish and Ukrainians have had moans about the french and germans, yet somehow it's all down to elements in the British media.

[Rinkals]

On the Frog and La Soule reaction I suspect they are both active on the old Board With a Bunch of little englanders being little englanders.
This makes you defensive.

This place is a lot more civilised.

It's the constant little Jibes,why should it be allowed to go undefended?

Polish and Ukrainians have had moans about the french and germans, yet somehow it's all down to elements in the British media.

I think there is anger at Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated and should be offered concessions, and at Scholtz' blatant obstructionism, but I don't think that this is anti French or anti German.

The Ukranians are losing 100 to 200 KIA per day, so refusing or delaying the provision of weapons that might end the war sooner, makes that anger justified.



The suggestion that Putin can be appeased is laughable, and efforts to do so merely encourages him to believe that he will ultimately prevail.

[Calculon]

On the Frog and La Soule reaction I suspect they are both active on the old Board With a Bunch of little englanders being little englanders.
This makes you defensive.

This place is a lot more civilised.

It's the constant little Jibes,why should it be allowed to go undefended?

Polish and Ukrainians have had moans about the french and germans, yet somehow it's all down to elements in the British media.

I think there is anger at Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated and should be offered concessions, and at Scholtz' blatant obstructionism, but I don't think that this is anti French or anti German.

FFS, just a few post above yours we have a poster explaining what Macron actually said:

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

[Rinkals]

It's the constant little Jibes,why should it be allowed to go undefended?

Polish and Ukrainians have had moans about the french and germans, yet somehow it's all down to elements in the British media.

I think there is anger at Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated and should be offered concessions, and at Scholtz' blatant obstructionism, but I don't think that this is anti French or anti German.

FFS, just a few post above yours we have a poster explaining what Macron actually said:

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

So fucking what?

I agree that France is supplying weapons, but my point was that Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated, is just the sort of encouragement for Putin to believe that he can win.

[laurent]

On the Frog and La Soule reaction I suspect they are both active on the old Board With a Bunch of little englanders being little englanders.
This makes you defensive.

This place is a lot more civilised.

It's the constant little Jibes,why should it be allowed to go undefended?

Polish and Ukrainians have had moans about the french and germans, yet somehow it's all down to elements in the British media.

I have not seen any around here (or there) ... However the little Idiots are mostly there...

[derriz]

To be fair, I'd a look at the thread in the other place and half it seems to be German/French bashing which might make la soule's post more understandable.

For what it's worth I think the German's have stepped up in a way that is under-appreciated. As usual they're paying by far the biggest financial price than any other country. Gazprom2 - having spent over 8 billion was cancelled immediately. And their energy and industry will take the biggest hit of any country from the energy sanctions that they have pushed for. Also they've taken in a huge number of refugees - six times the number the UK has, for example.

The fact that the UK is providing more military support and less support for refugees while Germany is doing the opposite is a reflection of national politics. In Germany taking in nearly a million refugees and wiping billions off their GDP is not political contentious but giving military support is more politically delicate. In the UK it's the opposite. France is somewhere in the middle, taking some economic pain and providing some military support.

They've all stepped up in different ways but in a way that was a pleasant surprise. When this was about to kick off, it was easy to think that the Russian money infiltration of London and Russian energy power over Germany would meant a lot of angry diplomatic whinging but little action.

[Ovals]

An article also expressing the potential for the West to lose its resolve. Reiterates some of the longer term concerns we've mentioned here.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1 ... e-interest

[Calculon]

I think there is anger at Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated and should be offered concessions, and at Scholtz' blatant obstructionism, but I don't think that this is anti French or anti German.

FFS, just a few post above yours we have a poster explaining what Macron actually said:

Macron was stupid to say what he did, but his message was not that a compromise had to be found now to stop the war now. In fact France is aligned with its allies in agreeing that maximum pain must be inflicted on the ground to the Russian troops and that negotiations cannot start until Ukraine is in a position to lead and Russia is in a position to beg for a ceasefire. But Macron was thinking long term when he said what he did. Russia will not disappear and peace in Europe will require working with Russia. Note he did not mention Putin, he mentioned Russia in his statement. Big nuance.

So fucking what?

I agree that France is supplying weapons, but my point was that Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated, is just the sort of encouragement for Putin to believe that he can win.

Your point is factually wrong, stop spreading lies.

[Openside]

Unfortunately I believe Ovals and TheFrog have both summed up the situation precisely and sadly Ukraine will ultimately be let down badly. That being said I sincerely hope that I am wrong and Russia is pushed back to its borders.

Ovals wrote.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

TheFrog wrote.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

I would be ashamed if the west did that. We need to accept the short term pain for long term gain.

[Openside]

There'll be no world famine - that's nonsense. Forecasts are that there'll be more or less the same amount of wheat available globally this year as last.

This talk of war weariness in the West annoys me - it comes across as a variation/continuation of the message that we need to tip-toe around in fear of annoying/insulting/irritating Russians bollox we've been listening to for years. Except instead of fearing a Russian military threat we should fear an economic one.

The financial cost to the west is more or less f*ck all and the global economic impact of the war is insignificant. The costs are being borne by the Ukrainians with their blood. The benefits for the west having the Ukrainians standing up to the Russians are huge - particular for European security.

From a western self-interest point of view - supporting the Ukrainians for as long as they request support makes sense. But most importantly, it's the right f*cking thing to do - providing support to a country being invaded and wrecked for no rational reason whatsoever by a war-mongering belligerent c*nt.

The Ukrainians - rightly - are not going to listen to foreigners telling them they should concede territory after what they've been through and the only other lever the West would have would be to withdraw support and abandon them to their fate - a morally indefensible action.

Spot on

[La soule]

Apologies for derailing the thread. It was not my intention at all.

[Uncle fester]

The scene is being set for them to be let down. Look at Biden today and his 'Its all their own fault' statement

Nah, that's just him bigging himself up for a domestic audience.

All bets off if the orange man gets back in though.

[Rinkals]

FFS, just a few post above yours we have a poster explaining what Macron actually said:

So fucking what?

I agree that France is supplying weapons, but my point was that Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated, is just the sort of encouragement for Putin to believe that he can win.

Your point is factually wrong, stop spreading lies.

What is this?

You aren't even reading what I'm posting, and you're editing my posts to remove context.

What lies have I spread?

The Estonian Prim Minister called on Macron and others to stop calling Putin, because she said that it encouraged him (Putin) to think he can win. Is she spreading lies, too?

Hellraiser has linked to a Twitter thread which gave a timeline of Scholz' prevaricating on weapon supplies. Is he spreading lies too?

I want this bloody war to end as soon as possible, and I think Putin is far too comfortable and, as a result, will be ramping up his attacks.

Furthermore, his obvious tactic is to divide opposition to his invasion, and the disparity between Germany and France's approach and the rest of the EU and NATO, helps with this.

[TheFrog]

Clarification from the French Presidency on Macron's statement about Russian humiliation:

As

the president has said, we want a Ukrainian victory. We want Ukraine's territorial integrity to be restored," the official told reporters when asked about Macron's humiliation comments

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fr ... 022-06-10/

[tabascoboy]

[Calculon]

What is this?

You aren't even reading what I'm posting, and you're editing my posts to remove context.

What lies have I spread?

I'm editing your post to remove your waffle. Macron did not say Putin should not be humiliated. Do yourself a favour and actually read Frog’s thoughtful post.