The Brexit Thread

[ia801310]

The ECHR was brought in around 1950, any gains before that in the UK were brought in by way of pressure by Rowntree and the Quakers in terms of
health and poverty, then by organisation in the workplace, ie Unions and the growth of the Labour movement. These gains were fought tooth and nail by the forbearers of the current government, they opposed the setting up of the NHS and welfare state at every opportunity.

The media in this country attack anyone who opposes this government and calls them traitors - remember the judges who found that the Tories were acting illegally re proroguing parliament?

The reason this government wants to replace the ECHR with a UK Bill of Rights is so that they can overturn or ignore any decision it doesn't like - no one can think they do not intend to do this, Shirley?

What do you call a government which uses the media for its own propaganda, withdraws from international treaties because it doesn't suit their purposes and over turns domestic court rulings where those courts have found against them, all whilst whipping up jingoistic and xenophobic fervour?

Unless they are also planning on gassing 6 million Jews then they aren't Nazis

Also parliament has always been able to overturn court judgements. If the Courts make a ruling that Parliament does not like then Parliament can legislate to change the law.

it is not Fascism either. This word gets thrown around so much. It seems to be the new go-to word now that calling someone sexist or racist doesn't work anymore.

What Fascism really means when used by progressives is "I don't agree with this"

I deliberately did not use the word Nazi as I reserve that for one meaning only, the Nazi Party of Adolph Hitler. Neo Nazis are another thing, but I would not use that term for the current government.

I didn't use the word Fascist, though its definition from the OED is
1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. 2 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

I asked how you'd describe this increasingly authoritarian and nationalistic government which has not only used the measures I mentioned, but they are also criminalising protest and basing refugee policy on skin colour - Ukraine v Syria for example.

Please feel free to answer how you'd describe this current government.

Fascism doesn't arrive wearing jackboots, it creeps in on the back of populism.

They are a centre- right democratic government

[Tichtheid]

Unless they are also planning on gassing 6 million Jews then they aren't Nazis

Also parliament has always been able to overturn court judgements. If the Courts make a ruling that Parliament does not like then Parliament can legislate to change the law.

it is not Fascism either. This word gets thrown around so much. It seems to be the new go-to word now that calling someone sexist or racist doesn't work anymore.

What Fascism really means when used by progressives is "I don't agree with this"

I deliberately did not use the word Nazi as I reserve that for one meaning only, the Nazi Party of Adolph Hitler. Neo Nazis are another thing, but I would not use that term for the current government.

I didn't use the word Fascist, though its definition from the OED is
1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. 2 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

I asked how you'd describe this increasingly authoritarian and nationalistic government which has not only used the measures I mentioned, but they are also criminalising protest and basing refugee policy on skin colour - Ukraine v Syria for example.

Please feel free to answer how you'd describe this current government.

Fascism doesn't arrive wearing jackboots, it creeps in on the back of populism.

They are a centre- right democratic government

Ha!

Aye, right.

Either you are being conned or there is something more sinister going on, there is nothing centrist about the illegal prorogation of parliament, the criminalisation of protest, the whipping up the jingoism and xenophobia, the lying to the house of commons, the demonization of the judges who find against them, the use of an attack dog press, the abandonment of treaties they have either negotiated themselves ie the NI protocol, or the treaties their processors were instrumental in setting up, ie the ECHR, the whittling away of the post war consensus, the enrichment of their backers and friends at the expense of the electorate, their constant breaking of laws with impunity, the corruption, the lies...

[JM2K6]

People trying to have good faith arguments with someone who isn't in the slightest bit interested in following suit is always fun to watch


(yes I know I do this a lot)

[fishfoodie]

People trying to have good faith arguments with someone who isn't in the slightest bit interested in following suit is always fun to watch


(yes I know I do this a lot)

Yes !

and up until now, the refugees from the other place haven't included the dogmatic morons; or at least they've left that shit in PR

[ia801310]

People trying to have good faith arguments with someone who isn't in the slightest bit interested in following suit is always fun to watch


(yes I know I do this a lot)

Yes !

and up until now, the refugees from the other place haven't included the dogmatic morons; or at least they've left that shit in PR

Fair enough, keep talking to yourselves in your echo-chamber. I won't comment any further other than to note that progressives are making the same mistakes they made before the Brexit Referendum, don't act surprised when one morning in 2/3 years time you wake up and find the UK out of the ECHR.

[Uncle fester]

People trying to have good faith arguments with someone who isn't in the slightest bit interested in following suit is always fun to watch


(yes I know I do this a lot)

Yes !

and up until now, the refugees from the other place haven't included the dogmatic morons; or at least they've left that shit in PR

The bad faith argumenters stick out like a sore thumb here.
That fella was so desperate to draw TH into saying the word "nazi".

[JM2K6]

People trying to have good faith arguments with someone who isn't in the slightest bit interested in following suit is always fun to watch


(yes I know I do this a lot)

Yes !

and up until now, the refugees from the other place haven't included the dogmatic morons; or at least they've left that shit in PR

Fair enough, keep talking to yourselves in your echo-chamber. I won't comment any further other than to note that progressives are making the same mistakes they made before the Brexit Referendum, don't act surprised when one morning in 2/3 years time you wake up and find the UK out of the ECHR.

Why the fuck would we be surprised when a government with the stated aim of trying to get us out of the ECHR gets us out of the ECHR?

[Hal Jordan]

Yes !

and up until now, the refugees from the other place haven't included the dogmatic morons; or at least they've left that shit in PR

Fair enough, keep talking to yourselves in your echo-chamber. I won't comment any further other than to note that progressives are making the same mistakes they made before the Brexit Referendum, don't act surprised when one morning in 2/3 years time you wake up and find the UK out of the ECHR.

Why the fuck would we be surprised when a government with the stated aim of trying to get us out of the ECHR gets us out of the ECHR?

Because, somehow, it will be the fault of the progressives, like it's the fault of Remaniacs that Brexit is a fucking great steaming heap of dogshit and we all have to take a big bite.

[_Os_]

If you're serious, and I'm having my doubts. Lets say hypothetically I'm right and you're wrong, and the Tories have conned you into supporting them because of the immigration issue surrounding Brexit, and you realise they don't give a fuck about any of this. What would you do then?

I guess only time will tell if you are right or not. I suspect that you are wrong. Even if you are right, it doesn't exactly square with the idea that Brexit Britain is a racist hell-hole. Free electoral tip to the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, constantly branding the electorate racist and thick is not a winning strategy.

One of the beauties of Brexit is that if we think the govt are lying to us we can elect a new one with a new immigration policy. You don't end with a situation whereby a whole community uses another EU country to piggy back into the UK, google "Dutch Somali's in the UK"

2 articles to help you

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 89841.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-citizens

I wonder you would be as opposed if to the Rwanda plan if the immigrants were being offshored to Canada, or Finland or Ireland?

I would be weary of saying people moving to a country, means that country is totally fine. Back in the bad old days, a lot of Africans illegally immigrated into apartheid South Africa, so many that a heavily fortified border was constructed, including a powerful electric fence people died on. Even years after it ended people who quite liked apartheid would make arguments like "everything was fine under apartheid, because Africans were trying to get into SA illegally!". But who were these Africans? They were mostly Mozambicans fleeing civil war, or Zimbabweans fleeing civil war and then Mugabe's genocide in the early 1980s. So their argument was actually "SA was fine because apartheid was better than horrific civil wars and a literal genocide". It's not the greatest argument.

So who is getting into small boats and trying to get into the UK? It seems to be mostly people fleeing horrific civil wars and circumstances where their lives are in danger. That's why most of their asylum cases are accepted and they're given refugee status and allowed to settle in the UK.

The UK never enforced the controls available to it under EU freedom of movement, and the reason they didn't was because the overwhelming majority of EU citizens who used free movement were working. They couldn't find anyone who was abusing freedom of movement to deport, it was costing more policing it than was being saved. There's an estimated 110k Somalia born people in the UK, are you really stating Brexit was worth it because of 10k-20k Somalians who are Dutch citizens moved to the UK? The UK has one of Europe's biggest (the biggest?) Somali community mostly because of that ever reliable indicator "which country/countries colonised it?".

You claim leaving the EU means the UK can change its immigration regime. Yes, in theory. In practice no, structurally it's all the same, so the same number of migrants are required. But the UK is now a less attractive prospect for Europeans, so they have to come from elsewhere which means overwhelmingly the Commonwealth. The period of highest immigration into the UK in its entire history is now, and especially since Tory majorities started in 2015-ish.

Canada/Finland/Ireland wouldn't be used as offshoring locations, because as your question implies, the point is to send people to somewhere awful and pretend it's actually brilliant. The point is to punish desperate vulnerable people. Even if everyone coming in a small boat to the UK were sent to Rwanda, it would make almost no difference to the UK's immigration numbers, as the chart I posted shows the UK's refugee intake is negligible. It's just cruelty so that the Tories can con people into believing they're tough on immigration.

An article to help you:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... aws-report

[_Os_]

Os, I don't understand how you are so good at good faith arguments on everything except rugby and a pain in the arse when it comes to rugby

Seriously though, I really appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I learn something new every time I read one. Your knowledge and understanding of my country's politics and society put mine to shame.

Politics is serious. It's the same thing I posted on the Ukraine thread when this came up, compliments and so on. I'm ruthless about the facts, if something turns out not to be true it's removed from my thinking. Reading/listening widely is the only way that can be done. Notes and lists help, thinking is writing really. There's an ideological framework I'm using to structure the thought, but I'm aware of my biases.

You have to treat the other person with dignity, otherwise you're just abusing them and why bother. When there's highly entrenched views, this is the only way to get any growth. Political arguments are like any relationship between people, how much growth depends on how truthful the participants are.

[fishfoodie]

Uh Oh !

Suspected foot and mouth outbreak being investigated in Norfolk

10km control zone enforced to prevent movement of any susceptible animal out of the area

This had better not be down to zero SPS Inspections happening in the UK

[Hal Jordan]

Uh Oh !

Suspected foot and mouth outbreak being investigated in Norfolk

10km control zone enforced to prevent movement of any susceptible animal out of the area

This had better not be down to zero SPS Inspections happening in the UK

Send the livestock to Rwanda.

[SaintK]

Uh Oh !

Suspected foot and mouth outbreak being investigated in Norfolk

10km control zone enforced to prevent movement of any susceptible animal out of the area

This had better not be down to zero SPS Inspections happening in the UK

Phew!!!

But in a statement a Defra spokesman said: “Following reports of a possible case of foot and mouth disease on a farm in Norfolk, we acted swiftly to put in place restrictions on the premises and collected samples for testing. Testing has allowed us to fully rule out the presence of this disease. Investigations into other possible causes continue.”

[Insane_Homer]

Racists checklist...

[petej]

Racists checklist...

That account to me looks like it is fake.

[Lobby]

Racists checklist...

I'm pleased to say that, with the exception of 7 which I can do nothing about, I answered 'no' to all of those.

[petej]

Racists checklist...

I'm pleased to say that, with the exception of 7 which I can do nothing about, I answered 'no' to all of those.

I like the union jacks while going on about England. If real Twitter is going the same way as Facebook/oldbook. The account was created in 2020.

[JM2K6]

It's a pretty obvious parody account

[dpedin]

Nothing to do with Brexit of course ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61987071

'On Wednesday, the governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, warned that soaring inflation would hit the UK harder than any other major economy during the current energy crisis. He said the UK's economy would be likely to weaken earlier and the effects would be more intense than for other countries as a result of the energy price shock and labour shortages.'

[fishfoodie]

Nothing to do with Brexit of course ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61987071

'On Wednesday, the governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, warned that soaring inflation would hit the UK harder than any other major economy during the current energy crisis. He said the UK's economy would be likely to weaken earlier and the effects would be more intense than for other countries as a result of the energy price shock and labour shortages.'

And this is summertime !

Energy use is low, because you need less light & heat; local food stocks are high, employment is highest in the services, like hospitality.

In September the EU will bring in it's biometric checks at the border, & from then on, Kent will be one big fucking truck park !

[fishfoodie]

Tories building that; "High Skills, High Wage", economy

UK scientists lose European funding in row over Brexit deal

Nineteen researchers to move to EU institutions while 115 forfeit grants as they stay in Britain

At least 115 UK-based scientists are to lose prestigious European grants and 19 are leaving Britain as a result of a row between London and Brussels over participation in a continent-wide research programme after Brexit.

A provisional deal for the UK to remain part of Horizon Europe has been thrown into doubt by Boris Johnson’s threat to tear up the protocol deal on Northern Ireland that he struck with the EU in 2019.

The EU is refusing to ratify Britain’s associate membership of the €95bn (£82bn) scheme, which funds projects from particle physics to vaccine research.

Earlier this month, almost 150 UK-based scientists who had secured promises of funding for cutting-edge research were told that they must declare their intention to transfer to institutions within the EU by Wednesday this week or lose their grants.

And the European Research Council has now revealed that 19 of them have informed it of their intention to leave the UK in order to keep their funding, with another 12 cases yet to be resolved.

[Insane_Homer]

Project Fear still a complete myth...

[Camroc2]

Do any of the Irish posters buy from the UK anymore? I don't and don't know anyone who does. Seems mad small businesses aren't hitting the roof. I get we are small but I presume the French and the Germans are buying fuck all as well

No - not worth the hassle.

[dpedin]

The way the £ is going it might eventually become worth it on price alone!

[Biffer]

To Counter the implication that without the ECHR the UK would turn into a Nazi state. The UK wasn't a Nazi state before the ECHR. In fact your post proves the point. Before the ECHR the UK politicians were perfectly able to promote human rights in the UK.

if the UK left the ECHR it would still be a democracy. Being in the ECHR is not a pre-requisite that an open and democratic society. Canada, New Zealand and Australia aren't Nazi states and have never been in the ECHR.

The ECHR was brought in around 1950, any gains before that in the UK were brought in by way of pressure by Rowntree and the Quakers in terms of
health and poverty, then by organisation in the workplace, ie Unions and the growth of the Labour movement. These gains were fought tooth and nail by the forbearers of the current government, they opposed the setting up of the NHS and welfare state at every opportunity.

The media in this country attack anyone who opposes this government and calls them traitors - remember the judges who found that the Tories were acting illegally re proroguing parliament?

The reason this government wants to replace the ECHR with a UK Bill of Rights is so that they can overturn or ignore any decision it doesn't like - no one can think they do not intend to do this, Shirley?

What do you call a government which uses the media for its own propaganda, withdraws from international treaties because it doesn't suit their purposes and over turns domestic court rulings where those courts have found against them, all whilst whipping up jingoistic and xenophobic fervour?

Unless they are also planning on gassing 6 million Jews then they aren't Nazis

Also parliament has always been able to overturn court judgements. If the Courts make a ruling that Parliament does not like then Parliament can legislate to change the law.

it is not Fascism either. This word gets thrown around so much. It seems to be the new go-to word now that calling someone sexist or racist doesn't work anymore.

What Fascism really means when used by progressives is "I don't agree with this"

'So long as you don't gas Jews you're not a Nazi' is quite the take.

[Marylandolorian]

Tories building that; "High Skills, High Wage", economy

UK scientists lose European funding in row over Brexit deal

Nineteen researchers to move to EU institutions while 115 forfeit grants as they stay in Britain

At least 115 UK-based scientists are to lose prestigious European grants and 19 are leaving Britain as a result of a row between London and Brussels over participation in a continent-wide research programme after Brexit.

A provisional deal for the UK to remain part of Horizon Europe has been thrown into doubt by Boris Johnson’s threat to tear up the protocol deal on Northern Ireland that he struck with the EU in 2019.

The EU is refusing to ratify Britain’s associate membership of the €95bn (£82bn) scheme, which funds projects from particle physics to vaccine research.

Earlier this month, almost 150 UK-based scientists who had secured promises of funding for cutting-edge research were told that they must declare their intention to transfer to institutions within the EU by Wednesday this week or lose their grants.

And the European Research Council has now revealed that 19 of them have informed it of their intention to leave the UK in order to keep their funding, with another 12 cases yet to be resolved.

This is a lose lose situation for everybody

[Rhubarb & Custard]

This is a lose lose situation for everybody

Brexit means Brexit.

Just ridiculous, and even still HMG will not commit to proper funding for the next 20+ years. We're losing projects we were part of, others will not get off the ground, and others still nobody will even bother thinking of the UK for involvement going forwards. And then we lose all the ancillary spinoffs and the spinoffs into the wider economy.

Why the government will not take this seriously I don't know. Surely this is one of those that every pound spent generates many more in return, and even this they can't get behind.

[Insane_Homer]

Ouch!

[dpedin]

So all these Tory Party leadership candidates going on about Brexit opportunities .... its going really well so far ain't it?

[petej]

So all these Tory Party leadership candidates going on about Brexit opportunities .... its going really well so far ain't it?

Ouch

[Marylandolorian]

I read this on in the tweet replies above , is this true?

#RichardMurphy

The European Court of Human Rights was created by Sir Winston Churchill to counter the risk of fascism re-emerging in Europe. Now most Tory leadership candidates want the UK to withdraw from it. Draw your own conclusions.

[petej]

I read this on in the tweet replies above , is this true?

#RichardMurphy

The European Court of Human Rights was created by Sir Winston Churchill to counter the risk of fascism re-emerging in Europe. Now most Tory leadership candidates want the UK to withdraw from it. Draw your own conclusions.

Churchill was heavily involved in the the european convention of human rights. Boris Johnson's maternal grandfather was president of the European Commission of Human Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Fawcett

[dpedin]

Another Brexit Bonus! It is all going so well.

https://www.ft.com/content/75679552-8db ... 0c5302928d

[I like neeps]

They've got a chicken expert on to tell us they've come home to roost.

[Hal Jordan]

They've got a chicken expert on to tell us they've come home to roost.

Wait until they find out what the agricultural price of a US trade deal will be...

[Insane_Homer]

[tabascoboy]

Extra holiday traffic now the schools have broken up? Completely unforeseeable of course that post Brexit border controls would put things under more stress...

[sturginho]

Is Dover an important port then?

[tabascoboy]

Is Dover an important port then?

You are Dominic Raab and I claim my £5

[sturginho]

Is Dover an important port then?

You are Dominic Raab and I claim my £5