Springbokke vs Wales

[bok_viking]

It was sold out. Those blue seats behind the posts were for the corporate suites.

I guess that's the difference between "sold out" and "full"

Yeah the corporate suites are different story all together, At Loftus they have 2 types of suites, the ones rented fully by a company and then the ones catering to individuals, where instead of buying a season ticket on the main stands you buy a season ticket where you have the full suite experience. So these yearly tickets will be considered sold out even if the people do not make it on the day. On the other hand a lot of people might have been sitting inside the suites drinking at the bar looking through the windows and watching on tv too. People who seem to care a lot more about the free drink and food than the game going on. I have been in the suites on match days and not everyone is out watching the game when there is a lot of free drink around.

[bok_viking]

I doubt that will be the case. I think Pollard will be back this Saturday unless he gets injured. FAF is also a little of a worry, he did not look at his best either. Definitely not in the same form as before covid in my opinion.

And they got to cut out the kicking when close to Wales 22, I have no problem kicking when in your own half, but when on attack 22 meters from the try line, you got to try go through the phases and run a bit. In the stadium on Saturday you could hear the collective groan of the crowd every time FAF kicked the ball close to their 22. Until the World cup we tended to do most kicking in our half but since the Lions tour we seem to kick it everywhere.

Yes I suppose you're right. It will be good to see Pollard back, but I'm worried he's spent a lot of the season on the bench or playing 12.

I actually thought the crowd were going to start booing at one point, especially when Faf kicked away more possession when we were in their half.

I think the crowd was very close to booing towards the end of the 1st half and some definitely did, I hear a few around me. In the block where i was sitting , it was almost like the whole block was shouting F*ck! every time we kicked the ball There were a few Wales supporters behind us that are doing the whole 3 test trip. They were good fun throughout, even after the game they had a few beers with us in the beer garden.

But it was the first time I was at a game where the crowd were booing one player so bad during the 2nd half as they did with Biggar. He really did rub everyone the wrong way with his antics. You tend to always have a small section booing players every now and then, but this was really on another level.

[OomStruisbaai]

It was sold out. Those blue seats behind the posts were for the corporate suites.

I guess that's the difference between "sold out" and "full"

Yeah the corporate suites are different story all together, At Loftus they have 2 types of suites, the ones rented fully by a company and then the ones catering to individuals, where instead of buying a season ticket on the main stands you buy a season ticket where you have the full suite experience. So these yearly tickets will be considered sold out even if the people do not make it on the day. On the other hand a lot of people might have been sitting inside the suites drinking at the bar looking through the windows and watching on tv too. People who seem to care a lot more about the free drink and food than the game going on. I have been in the suites on match days and not everyone is out watching the game when there is a lot of free drink around.

I knew that blue empty seats have something to do with the Blue Bulls supporters love for vuil Coke.

[_Os_]

Solid gang tackle and rip for the turnover. Good turn of speed from tall Specman before ending up in the fence like Zhou Guanyu.

[Blake]

It was sold out. Those blue seats behind the posts were for the corporate suites.

I guess that's the difference between "sold out" and "full"

Yeah the corporate suites are different story all together, At Loftus they have 2 types of suites, the ones rented fully by a company and then the ones catering to individuals, where instead of buying a season ticket on the main stands you buy a season ticket where you have the full suite experience. So these yearly tickets will be considered sold out even if the people do not make it on the day. On the other hand a lot of people might have been sitting inside the suites drinking at the bar looking through the windows and watching on tv too. People who seem to care a lot more about the free drink and food than the game going on. I have been in the suites on match days and not everyone is out watching the game when there is a lot of free drink around.

Yep, pretty much this. Lots of +1's get invited and many of them don't really care about the game, so they sit can chat inside drinking and eating.
Also, the views from those suites are often pretty shitty so people will watch on the screens inside and quickly pop outside when the action is in their half of the field.

[Blake]

But it was the first time I was at a game where the crowd were booing one player so bad during the 2nd half as they did with Biggar. He really did rub everyone the wrong way with his antics. You tend to always have a small section booing players every now and then, but this was really on another level.

You should have heard them having a go at Luke Watson in the 2009 Bulls vs Stormers super rugby match!
JFC the crowd was absolutely feral that day. Loftus is a special place sometimes.

I completely got and backed the kicking strategy against Wales in the 2019 RWC semi. It was the right gameplan coming off a 4 game losing streak where Gatland had us somewhat figured out.
But we've moved beyond that and Wales were not a threat to us in the tackle area or at the breakdown this weekend.

We were looking threatening with ball in hand up until somebody kicked it away, be it Faf, or Jantjies, or De Allende, or Willemse etc.
And while I'm not a huge fan of the kicking, if they were good, contestable kicks sure. But the execution also left a lot to be desired. Almost every kick was poor bar 2 or 3 that we contested and the De Allende kick that sat up for Kolbe's try.

[Chilli]

I'd be ok with Willemse being given the 10 jersey for the next 2 tests. He's earned the opportunity.

But he needs to learn to pass on not crash every ball up.

I get very nervous with him at 10. He's a great player, when he plays on instinct. The moment you make him think, he tends to "overthink".

At 12 he's great because he doesn't have time or space to think, but he's not better than De Allende or Esterhuizen.
At 15 he has too much time and space, so he tries to do something magical en fucks it up 6 out of 10 times.
And at 10 he is expected to make a decision every play, overthinks it and has a 50% hit rate. He is not a reliable backline general and has not had enough time at 10 to develop that skillset.

He should be the bench replacement for Frans Steyn IMO. Not the best player we have at 10, 12 or 15...but a versatile and capable enough sub when we play a 6-2 split.

Starting fullback should be Willie / Galant / Fassi.

Our issue is depth at 10. We don't have any. None of the up-and-comers have shown much this season. Elton has a lot of issues off the field, so he is flaky as ever and this performance won't help with that all. Morne Steyn is too old. Goosen is too fragile. Libbok is too erratic.

If Pollard can't start, I guess Willemse is as good a stand in as anybody we have. But I don't have to like it.
Nienaber needs a long term Pollard backup and fast.

This is a very good post.

[ia801310]

I'd be ok with Willemse being given the 10 jersey for the next 2 tests. He's earned the opportunity.

But he needs to learn to pass on not crash every ball up.

I get very nervous with him at 10. He's a great player, when he plays on instinct. The moment you make him think, he tends to "overthink".

At 12 he's great because he doesn't have time or space to think, but he's not better than De Allende or Esterhuizen.
At 15 he has too much time and space, so he tries to do something magical en fucks it up 6 out of 10 times.
And at 10 he is expected to make a decision every play, overthinks it and has a 50% hit rate. He is not a reliable backline general and has not had enough time at 10 to develop that skillset.

He should be the bench replacement for Frans Steyn IMO. Not the best player we have at 10, 12 or 15...but a versatile and capable enough sub when we play a 6-2 split.

Starting fullback should be Willie / Galant / Fassi.

Our issue is depth at 10. We don't have any. None of the up-and-comers have shown much this season. Elton has a lot of issues off the field, so he is flaky as ever and this performance won't help with that all. Morne Steyn is too old. Goosen is too fragile. Libbok is too erratic.

If Pollard can't start, I guess Willemse is as good a stand in as anybody we have. But I don't have to like it.
Nienaber needs a long term Pollard backup and fast.

I always thought that Wolhuter was a future Bok 10. Chamberlain is OK too.

[Blake]

I always thought that Wolhuter was a future Bok 10. Chamberlain is OK too.

Both are nothing more than prospects at this point. Decent prospects, but prospects nonetheless. Wolhuter as just coming good when he got injured. Chamberlain hasn’t proven to be consistently good enough to unseat Bosch and become a regular starter at the Sharks.

It’s so frustrating that for a country that produces so many great players we are only able to produce one decent fly half every decade or so.

The step up from school to varsity cup to pro just seems to be too big. I would love for a player like Libbok to have a go at the Bok 10 jersey but I have no confidence that he can make the step up. I suspect he will just be Elton Mk2, with the same flash and brilliance and also the same flaws when the pressure is on.

[OomStruisbaai]

We got lots of flyhalfs who can do the high kick and charge Nienaber gameplan. Jantjies took it a bit to far by kick pass to the wings. Goosen will fit right into that gameplan.

I think that's why Libbok change from a loser to a winner. The coach give him freedom to play.

[Chilli]

Goosen, if uninjured is the perfect 10 as he can play almost any style.

Chamberlain has been wasted st the $harks as they clearly don't rate him. Same as Chiat.

Wolhuter looks the real deal, but has been injured and then replaced by Libbok.

Our coaches are too conservative and lack the basic skills to help the likes of Boeta and Kade push on.

[Sards]

We were very fortunate to win that match.
The yellow cards certainly helped our cause.
And big up to Willemse for nailing that kick. Generally we would expect him to miss at least 50 percent.
I just feel Rassie/Nienaber are stuck in a selection rut.
That's why Libbok, Fassi and Esterhuizen will not feature in the backline and Roos and Louw won't get starts. With an undercooked PSDT returning those 2 will move further down the pecking order. There is no other game plan other than the Jake2007 version. That's it.
Sadly we are going to go into the RWC with this game plan.
I know Roos can make the kind of impact that could force an inclusion to the starting side , but he would have to leapfrog Wiese who played like his position depended on it.
We will not beat Australia or New Zealand like this.
Playing all our games recently against NH sides prepared the NH more for us than helped our cause to be the best team in the world. Wales who have been dismal in the URC and NH tournaments gave us a huge fright. A last gasp win against 12 men.
There is nothing positive to take out of that besides retaining our number 1 position.
If anything Wales will fancy their chances next game.
Regarding Kolisi. He waa really poor for the Sharks ( to think players bumped down to the CC had to sacrifice their careers to include him ). And just as poor this past weekend. But you can imagine the political mess if he got dropped. He really doesn't contribute anything.
We were not rusty. There was lots of preparation time. Remember these players are proffessionals. It's just a really crappy game plan. Has been for years . We get away with it and that's why it's still in place.
I really cannot get excited about the Boks till we get to the Rugby Championship. That is going to be the eye opener. The real test.

[Sards]

On another note. Only Marx and Ox made the world team. Kiwis and Aussies dominated it against much better opponents.
And I have no clue why Herschel is still in the team. He only gets a couple of minutes because he is so poor.
He needs to go back to CC.

[FalseBayFC]

The Junior Boks flyhalf Sacha Mngomezulu is one to watch. His place kicking was a bit off in the two games played so far but he's got some outrageous attacking skills.
About 10 years ago SA cricket decided to embark on a program to develop spin bowling in the country. They held spin camps and sent promising players to the sub-continent to spin clinics. We now have probably the most spin depth outside India and Pakistan.
They need to the same thing for the flyhalf and scrumhalf positions. Employ specialist coaches to run camps. They do this with quarterbacks in the US.

[assfly]

Goosen, if uninjured .....

Stopped reading there!

[Blake]

The Junior Boks flyhalf Sacha Mngomezulu is one to watch. His place kicking was a bit off in the two games played so far but he's got some outrageous attacking skills.

Looks promising, but I'm not sticking my neck out for any player until he's had 2 solid seasons of senior rugby in a row.
We've had too many "one season wonders" that fizzle out after their breakout season.
Nohamba and Bosch come to mind. As does Herchel Jantjies, Embrose Papier, Ivan van Zyl...the list goes on.

Not one of these players have been able to string together 2 solid consecutive seasons at Super Rugby / URC level...let along Bok level.

[assfly]

There are rumours circulating that the Boks are going to put out a completely different starting XV.

[OomStruisbaai]

That will be great. He should have started with the URC /NH players in the squad, Japan lot from the bench.

[C69]

There are rumours circulating that the Boks are going to put out a completely different starting XV.

Hopefully a different ref as well

[Lobby]

There are rumours circulating that the Boks are going to put out a completely different starting XV.

Hopefully a different ref as well

Agreed; Wales' best hope in the next two tests is that you get a thoroughly inept ref like Adamson who will ignore Wales' repeated and deliberate infringements. It would help if he was deaf as well, so that he won't have to listen to Biggar's constant whining.

[GogLais]

There are rumours circulating that the Boks are going to put out a completely different starting XV.

Hugely disrespectful to our brave lads. Totally inexperienced THP replacement then and worrying re Francis so soon after his concussion in the 6N.

[average joe]

Probably only rotating the forwards plus Pollard

[C69]

There are rumours circulating that the Boks are going to put out a completely different starting XV.

Hopefully a different ref as well

Agreed; Wales' best hope in the next two tests is that you get a thoroughly inept ref like Adamson who will ignore Wales' repeated and deliberate infringements. It would help if he was deaf as well, so that he won't have to listen to Biggar's constant whining.

Tbh i haven't even seen the game and have no intention to watch any of the tour.

[FalseBayFC]

[Wilson's Toffee]

I liked the game. Boks were rusted, undercooked, inept, disorganised.

Yet they managed to sneak the win.

[JM2K6]

Looking forward to watching that team play.

[assfly]

Holy shit!

[average joe]

Potential future Bok 6 in there

[Raggs]

Just came in to see the discussion on the bok lineup, and happened to read this on the same page, I'd say it didn't age that well :D

We were very fortunate to win that match.
The yellow cards certainly helped our cause.
And big up to Willemse for nailing that kick. Generally we would expect him to miss at least 50 percent.
I just feel Rassie/Nienaber are stuck in a selection rut.
That's why Libbok, Fassi and Esterhuizen will not feature in the backline and Roos and Louw won't get starts. With an undercooked PSDT returning those 2 will move further down the pecking order. There is no other game plan other than the Jake2007 version. That's it.
Sadly we are going to go into the RWC with this game plan.
I know Roos can make the kind of impact that could force an inclusion to the starting side , but he would have to leapfrog Wiese who played like his position depended on it.
We will not beat Australia or New Zealand like this.
Playing all our games recently against NH sides prepared the NH more for us than helped our cause to be the best team in the world. Wales who have been dismal in the URC and NH tournaments gave us a huge fright. A last gasp win against 12 men.
There is nothing positive to take out of that besides retaining our number 1 position.
If anything Wales will fancy their chances next game.
Regarding Kolisi. He waa really poor for the Sharks ( to think players bumped down to the CC had to sacrifice their careers to include him ). And just as poor this past weekend. But you can imagine the political mess if he got dropped. He really doesn't contribute anything.
We were not rusty. There was lots of preparation time. Remember these players are proffessionals. It's just a really crappy game plan. Has been for years . We get away with it and that's why it's still in place.
I really cannot get excited about the Boks till we get to the Rugby Championship. That is going to be the eye opener. The real test.

[bok_viking]

Potential future Bok 6 in there

This team is going to be interesting. More of a URC feel to it and more players in form, so hopefully they will have similar tactics to the URC franchises as well, more balanced between kick and attack. I would have loved to see Louw on the bench instead of Elstadt though to cover 8 and 7/6 Would love to see him and Roos together.

That back three could wreck havoc if given enough ball. Dare I say we will be running the ball more with that backline?

Hendrikse to compete with Biggar for title of the biggest complainer on the field.

[assfly]

So much to talk about! There are so many headlines you could make out of that team.

Fair fucks to RN for doing something I don't think any international coach has done before. I'm not sure he would have done this if we'd lost the first test, and I'm not sure if this team will gel quickly enough to beat a fired-up Wales, but it's going to be interesting!

[OomStruisbaai]

Awesome team. That back 3 will be exciting. Supposetjey will run from the back because there is no way the possession will go past Kriel. The loose trio is spot on. Credit to NieNaber for selection out of the box.

[average joe]

Only saw the team now. I really thought all the talk about a whole new team was just going to be Pollard added with some starter and bench changes in the forwards. This has a more "future team" feel to it. I'm excited.

[OomStruisbaai]

Just came in to see the discussion on the bok lineup, and happened to read this on the same page, I'd say it didn't age that well :D

We were very fortunate to win that match.
The yellow cards certainly helped our cause.
And big up to Willemse for nailing that kick. Generally we would expect him to miss at least 50 percent.
I just feel Rassie/Nienaber are stuck in a selection rut.
That's why Libbok, Fassi and Esterhuizen will not feature in the backline and Roos and Louw won't get starts. With an undercooked PSDT returning those 2 will move further down the pecking order. There is no other game plan other than the Jake2007 version. That's it.
Sadly we are going to go into the RWC with this game plan.
I know Roos can make the kind of impact that could force an inclusion to the starting side , but he would have to leapfrog Wiese who played like his position depended on it.
We will not beat Australia or New Zealand like this.
Playing all our games recently against NH sides prepared the NH more for us than helped our cause to be the best team in the world. Wales who have been dismal in the URC and NH tournaments gave us a huge fright. A last gasp win against 12 men.
There is nothing positive to take out of that besides retaining our number 1 position.
If anything Wales will fancy their chances next game.
Regarding Kolisi. He waa really poor for the Sharks ( to think players bumped down to the CC had to sacrifice their careers to include him ). And just as poor this past weekend. But you can imagine the political mess if he got dropped. He really doesn't contribute anything.
We were not rusty. There was lots of preparation time. Remember these players are proffessionals. It's just a really crappy game plan. Has been for years . We get away with it and that's why it's still in place.
I really cannot get excited about the Boks till we get to the Rugby Championship. That is going to be the eye opener. The real test.

I

[assfly]

I just feel Rassie/Nienaber are stuck in a selection rut.
That's why Libbok, Fassi and Esterhuizen will not feature in the backline and Roos and Louw won't get starts. With an undercooked PSDT returning those 2 will move further down the pecking order. There is no other game plan other than the Jake2007 version. That's it.

[_Os_]

Wow, looks pre-planned, team released on a Tuesday and players who performed well in the 1st test and those who performed poorly all cut regardless.

I wonder if they're going to try a new game plan. Or same game plan and see which players can best fit into the main squad.

Marcell has a big chance to push ahead of all the other backrow contenders to claim a place in the 23, has the experience and talent. Gelant, Esterhuizen, Orie are all in the same boat. On the other side of the coin, if they flop there's not that many more tests to make the RWC squad.

[bok_viking]

Wow, looks pre-planned, team released on a Tuesday and players who performed well in the 1st test and those who performed poorly all cut regardless.

I wonder if they're going to try a new game plan. Or same game plan and see which players can best fit into the main squad.

Marcell has a big chance to push ahead of all the other backrow contenders to claim a place in the 23, has the experience and talent. Gelant, Esterhuizen, Orie are all in the same boat. On the other side of the coin, if they flop there's not that many more tests to make the RWC squad.

I think this type of game is the best way to test these players instead of against some Tier 2 nation where there will be a lot less pressure or in some dead rubber game where nothing is on the line. The Welsh players will most likely feel disrespected and come out to prove a point as well as the possibility to square the series. So this is going to be a high pressure game for these Bok players, ideal to see what they are made off.
This is a very strong Bok team based on form, so the biggest issue is if they can gel. I think it helps that several of these players played together in URC teams and would not lack confidence.

[_Os_]

Wow, looks pre-planned, team released on a Tuesday and players who performed well in the 1st test and those who performed poorly all cut regardless.

I wonder if they're going to try a new game plan. Or same game plan and see which players can best fit into the main squad.

Marcell has a big chance to push ahead of all the other backrow contenders to claim a place in the 23, has the experience and talent. Gelant, Esterhuizen, Orie are all in the same boat. On the other side of the coin, if they flop there's not that many more tests to make the RWC squad.

I think this type of game is the best way to test these players instead of against some Tier 2 nation where there will be a lot less pressure or in some dead rubber game where nothing is on the line. The Welsh players will most likely feel disrespected and come out to prove a point as well as the possibility to square the series. So this is going to be a high pressure game for these Bok players, ideal to see what they are made off.
This is a very strong Bok team based on form, so the biggest issue is if they can gel. I think it helps that several of these players played together in URC teams and would not lack confidence.

I'm more looking at the guys with experience and talent who could make the RWC squad. At least half the squad is already picked. There's so much strong competition the chances of a rookie making the squad are very remote but not impossible.

Pack is interesting. It's ridiculous that a frontrow that strong is our third choice, they need to play well or will be risking their places (because they're third choice and easier to replace). Bench frontrow is the usual Marx/Koch, with Mchunu added, I reckon Mchunu will be a regular Bok selection but not for a few seasons yet. Lock has a crazy amount of competition for places, Orie has been with the squad a long time now (I've seen him in person he's a "bigger in real life" player, easily one of the bigger guys in the side), he's going to find it hard to keep his place if he's average again. Starting backrow is exciting, Marcell and Roos both have a chance of becoming regular players in the 23, whatever Wiese/Smith/Elstadt are they're not irreplaceable (on talent I would put Marcell and Roos above those three).

I'm hoping Marcell does well. Marcell firing at his full potential would be really valuable in the Bok 23.

[JM2K6]

So much to talk about! There are so many headlines you could make out of that team.

Fair fucks to RN for doing something I don't think any international coach has done before. I'm not sure he would have done this if we'd lost the first test, and I'm not sure if this team will gel quickly enough to beat a fired-up Wales, but it's going to be interesting!

What has he done that hasn't been done before?

[average joe]

So much to talk about! There are so many headlines you could make out of that team.

Fair fucks to RN for doing something I don't think any international coach has done before. I'm not sure he would have done this if we'd lost the first test, and I'm not sure if this team will gel quickly enough to beat a fired-up Wales, but it's going to be interesting!

What has he done that hasn't been done before?

Changes the whole team bar Etzebeth before an important test. Bok coaches tend to be a lot more conservative in how they bring new players through.