Springbokke vs Wales

[dabooldawg]

Gelant match stats:

Run metres- 9
Run metres while crabbing towards the touchline, cutting off space for the wings - 350
Passes- 2
Times should've passed- 22


He must be Anton Leonard's love child, Bostik junior.

[Wilson's Toffee]

BTW, after all the noise about Roos, he was totally owned.

Ja. There is a difference between URC and Test rugby.....

[Blake]

Still a first loss to them in SA.

Gonna cost us in the rankings. Thankfully NZ also lost a home game against a lower ranked team, otherwise I think they would have passed us. But we are going to drop a couple of points.

I think it means Fra is no1 after a sh*thouse performance against Jap?

Yep. France to #1, Ireland to #2, Boks drop to #3

[Blake]

BTW, after all the noise about Roos, he was totally owned.

He was leading the gainline crossing stat at halftime, but yes, wasn’t as effective as I’d hoped he’d be. Not a bad debut though. Was one of the better Boks on the park, not that that’s saying much.

[Torquemada 1420]

Gonna cost us in the rankings. Thankfully NZ also lost a home game against a lower ranked team, otherwise I think they would have passed us. But we are going to drop a couple of points.

I think it means Fra is no1 after a sh*thouse performance against Jap?

Yep. France to #1, Ireland to #2, Boks drop to #3

In all seriousness, that has to be the most misleading no1 ranking ever.

[Torquemada 1420]

BTW, after all the noise about Roos, he was totally owned.

He was leading the gainline crossing stat at halftime, but yes, wasn’t as effective as I’d hoped he’d be. Not a bad debut though. Was one of the better Boks on the park, not that that’s saying much.

TBH, I was surprised how badly SA came off at the breakdown.

[C69]

I think it means Fra is no1 after a sh*thouse performance against Jap?

Yep. France to #1, Ireland to #2, Boks drop to #3

In all seriousness, that has to be the most misleading no1 ranking ever.

Wales I think have that honour

[Blake]

I think it means Fra is no1 after a sh*thouse performance against Jap?

Yep. France to #1, Ireland to #2, Boks drop to #3

In all seriousness, that has to be the most misleading no1 ranking ever.

I dunno. Seems about right to me.

[Sards]

BTW, after all the noise about Roos, he was totally owned.

He was leading the gainline crossing stat at halftime, but yes, wasn’t as effective as I’d hoped he’d be. Not a bad debut though. Was one of the better Boks on the park, not that that’s saying much.

I was disappointed in him the most. Had a wake up I reckon.
Gelant was ineffective. Strangely so.
I saw a lot of promise coming through.
Pollard said we lost it in the second half. That's about right.
Too many changes. The bomb squad bombed.

I wouldn't be too hopeful the A team will do better. Wales could adapt to a completely new team. It must have been a nightmare for the Welsh team management to analyze all those new faces and formulate a plan. Says a lot about the Welsh structures and the flexibility of the team.

We were out thought

[ia801310]

Prediction for the 3rd test

FB 15 Willie Le Roux
RW 14 Cheslin Kolbe
OC 13 Lukhanyo Am
IC 12 Damian de Allende
LW 11 Makazole Mapimpi
FH 10 Handre Pollard
SH 9 Faf de Klerk
N8 8 Jasper Wiese
BF 7 Pieter-Steph Du Toit
OF 6 Siya Kolisi (c)
RL 5 Lood de Jager
LL 4 Eben Etzebeth
TP 3 Frans Malherbe
HK 2 Bongi Mbonambi
LP 1 Ox Nché

Replacements:
HK 16 Malcolm Marx
PR 17 Steven Kitshoff
PR 18 Vincent Koch
LK 19 Franco Mostert
FL 20 Elrigh Louw
FL 21 Kwagga Smith
SH 22 Jaden Hendrikse
FB 23 Damian Willemse

I think this is closest to being the best available. I don't think Kolisi deserves his place, but he isn't going to be dropped from the 3rd test squad.

[boere wors]

Prediction for the 3rd test

FB 15 Willie Le Roux
RW 14 Cheslin Kolbe
OC 13 Lukhanyo Am
IC 12 Damian de Allende
LW 11 Makazole Mapimpi
FH 10 Handre Pollard
SH 9 Faf de Klerk
N8 8 Jasper Wiese
BF 7 Pieter-Steph Du Toit
OF 6 Siya Kolisi (c)
RL 5 Lood de Jager
LL 4 Eben Etzebeth
TP 3 Frans Malherbe
HK 2 Bongi Mbonambi
LP 1 Ox Nché

Replacements:
HK 16 Malcolm Marx
PR 17 Steven Kitshoff
PR 18 Vincent Koch
LK 19 Franco Mostert
FL 20 Elrigh Louw
FL 21 Kwagga Smith
SH 22 Jaden Hendrikse
FB 23 Damian Willemse

I think this is closest to being the best available. I don't think Kolisi deserves his place, but he isn't going to be dropped from the 3rd test squad.

22 rather Herschel. Other than that all spot on.

[_Os_]

Congratulations to Wales on their first win in SA.

It now means the selection for this match was worth it if the Boks win the next test, but not worth it if they don't. I still think the selection for this match was strong, the score is in line with recent Bok v Wales matches.

To me most of the players that have been around the squad before and have done well in the past at test level looked like they needed more test game time: Marcell/Pieter-Steph du Toit/Trevor Nyakane/Thomas du Toit/Pollard/Esterhuizen/Kriel. I think most of those should be selected again for the 3rd test. Gelant and Orie, still aren't producing much at test level, I would keep Gelant around a bit longer because he's done really well at Super Rugby/URC level (so well that I would be prepared to give him 20 tests), but Orie needs to be cut soon. Of the players with 5 or less caps Arendse/Hendrikse/Roos all did well in places, but Dweba seemed to struggle and Roos as the game went on too, rest not enough to judge.

People saying it's as easy as "pick the team from the first test again" are wrong. That'll produce another close match, which could be a loss this time. Boks need to pick the players from the 2nd test which showed that they could be better in the 3rd test than players from the 1st test. Marcell/Pieter-Steph du Toit/Pollard/Esterhuizen/Hendrikse all look like safe bets to be better than players from the 1st test. If you were going purely on form: Hendrikse/Pollard would be the starting 9/10 again, Pieter-Steph would replace Moerat on the bench, Marcell would replace Elrigh Louw on the bench. Esterhuizen would be quite difficult to fit in and would probably need a 5/3 bench split, he looked very capable of adding to the side though.

[_Os_]

22 rather Herschel. Other than that all spot on.

Hendrikse was our best 9 over these two tests, Faf was bad in the first test.

If they go back to the kicking based game plan then Faf has to start again though, because he's the only 9 they're selecting who can do it.

Hendrikse and Herschel look to be going head to head and fairly similar players. Hendrikse has far more potential if he can eliminate the errors. Herschel has had 22 tests now and has never reached his pre 2019 RWC form since then.

[assfly]

Congratulations Wales, enjoy the win! Set's up next weekend for three epic series deciders.

Hugely disappointing from the Boks. But I suspected we would struggle. But we were still only a couple of points away from a win, which would have been a big statement about our depth so I think there are some positives.

This game felt like the SA A game against the Lions. Just too many new combinations and too many players almost trying too hard to put their hands up.

Blake was right about Pollard. He looked like a 12 playing 10. But still did enough to start next weekend, I hope.
I thought Hendrikse did well. Bar one bad box kick, which was made worse by some dumb players forgetting the laws, he was quite active. Good on defence too.
I was quite surprised how we got owned at the breakdown. Coetzee was very quiet, reminded me of the URC final. Roos with some good runs but we also need our 8 to put in some donkey work at the breakdown.
Gelat was the most disappointing player for me. Just offered so little at 15. I wish Fassi was given a chance, as he doesn't look like a natural winger.
AE did ok, but had no space to play his normal game and Kriel offered nothing outside of him.

Having said that, it was a team failure and it's hard to expect them to gel so quickly. I feel sorry for a lot of the players who were clearly struggling to apply a gameplan that was new to them whilst doing enough to make a statement.

[Insane_Homer]

A scrum going backwards goes down all by itself LOL

Yep and quite right too. No way should a game be decided by a shitty scrum penalty.

So you thought it was penalty too?

[assfly]

It was clearly a penalty.

But given AWJ's shocking yellow card, I think it was the right result in the end.

[Sards]

It was clearly a penalty.

But given AWJ's shocking yellow card, I think it was the right result in the end.

Last week it went our way and they got to bitch about the ref and our players are suddenly heroes. This week it went the way of the Welsh and we blame our players.
Next week up for grabs.

[FalseBayFC]

I think the Bok coaches are rubbish. Shit gameplan, shit vision and Heyneke Meyer level lack of imagination. Heyneke Meyer was successful because he had a team full of experienced world class rugby players at provincial level. He couldn't replicate that as a Bok coach because of his conservatism. Nienaber is falling into that trap. His real strength is as a defence coach. I'm not sure Mzwandile Stick is up to the job as attack coach to be honest. Any squad with Am, Kolbe, Mapimpi etc should be scoring tries.

Yesterday we picked a team full of x-factor players. But there was zero ambition, zero creativity. Our only weapons are the scrum, maul for try and high kick down the tramlines. Teams know how to defend against our high kicks now with lazy runners forming a screen. The scrum went OK but Nyakane isn't up to it. I thought Mchunu was excellent, gave away a penalty but without Kitshoff, Ox and Malherbe it didn't work. Dweba, Marx and the lineouts went OK but Wales were ready for our maul.

Plus points for me yesterday were Dweba and Hendriks(who surprised me). Not sure about Ruan Nortje and Arendse as test players though.

[ia801310]

Congratulations Wales, enjoy the win! Set's up next weekend for three epic series deciders.

Hugely disappointing from the Boks. But I suspected we would struggle. But we were still only a couple of points away from a win, which would have been a big statement about our depth so I think there are some positives.

This game felt like the SA A game against the Lions. Just too many new combinations and too many players almost trying too hard to put their hands up.

Blake was right about Pollard. He looked like a 12 playing 10. But still did enough to start next weekend, I hope.
I thought Hendrikse did well. Bar one bad box kick, which was made worse by some dumb players forgetting the laws, he was quite active. Good on defence too.
I was quite surprised how we got owned at the breakdown. Coetzee was very quiet, reminded me of the URC final. Roos with some good runs but we also need our 8 to put in some donkey work at the breakdown.
Gelat was the most disappointing player for me. Just offered so little at 15. I wish Fassi was given a chance, as he doesn't look like a natural winger.
AE did ok, but had no space to play his normal game and Kriel offered nothing outside of him.

Having said that, it was a team failure and it's hard to expect them to gel so quickly. I feel sorry for a lot of the players who were clearly struggling to apply a gameplan that was new to them whilst doing enough to make a statement.

Agree 100%. It would be really unfair to judge players like Roos and AE and Nortje based on yesterday.

[Sards]

I really don't see this as a failure. My only concern is that our backline. For sure reason at second half Hendricks started kicking everything. Total opposite of first half. Almost like Nienaber decided they couldn't play their natural game. Also. Why play players out of position. I mean. Fassi at 11... our backup scrumhalf at wing....if Gelant did not fire they should have moved Fassi to fullback and tried that. They are killing our rookies careers.

The Coach NienaberRassie. Well they were totally outclassed by the Welsh coach. They had the team to do something special. Announced the team far too early and it lost its ambush effect. Basically sabotaged the team.

[OomStruisbaai]

Congratulations to Wales on their first win in SA.

It now means the selection for this match was worth it if the Boks win the next test, but not worth it if they don't. I still think the selection for this match was strong, the score is in line with recent Bok v Wales matches.

To me most of the players that have been around the squad before and have done well in the past at test level looked like they needed more test game time: Marcell/Pieter-Steph du Toit/Trevor Nyakane/Thomas du Toit/Pollard/Esterhuizen/Kriel. I think most of those should be selected again for the 3rd test. Gelant and Orie, still aren't producing much at test level, I would keep Gelant around a bit longer because he's done really well at Super Rugby/URC level (so well that I would be prepared to give him 20 tests), but Orie needs to be cut soon. Of the players with 5 or less caps Arendse/Hendrikse/Roos all did well in places, but Dweba seemed to struggle and Roos as the game went on too, rest not enough to judge.

People saying it's as easy as "pick the team from the first test again" are wrong. That'll produce another close match, which could be a loss this time. Boks need to pick the players from the 2nd test which showed that they could be better in the 3rd test than players from the 1st test. Marcell/Pieter-Steph du Toit/Pollard/Esterhuizen/Hendrikse all look like safe bets to be better than players from the 1st test. If you were going purely on form: Hendrikse/Pollard would be the starting 9/10 again, Pieter-Steph would replace Moerat on the bench, Marcell would replace Elrigh Louw on the bench. Esterhuizen would be quite difficult to fit in and would probably need a 5/3 bench split, he looked very capable of adding to the side though.

Did Marcell Coetzee played yesterday? He disappeared like Kolisi.. Fourie should have started in 6.

[boere wors]

I think the Bok coaches are rubbish. Shit gameplan, shit vision and Heyneke Meyer level lack of imagination. Heyneke Meyer was successful because he had a team full of experienced world class rugby players at provincial level. He couldn't replicate that as a Bok coach because of his conservatism. Nienaber is falling into that trap. His real strength is as a defence coach. I'm not sure Mzwandile Stick is up to the job as attack coach to be honest. Any squad with Am, Kolbe, Mapimpi etc should be scoring tries.

Yesterday we picked a team full of x-factor players. But there was zero ambition, zero creativity. Our only weapons are the scrum, maul for try and high kick down the tramlines. Teams know how to defend against our high kicks now with lazy runners forming a screen. The scrum went OK but Nyakane isn't up to it. I thought Mchunu was excellent, gave away a penalty but without Kitshoff, Ox and Malherbe it didn't work. Dweba, Marx and the lineouts went OK but Wales were ready for our maul.

Plus points for me yesterday were Dweba and Hendriks(who surprised me). Not sure about Ruan Nortje and Arendse as test players though.

That is, unfortunately, a really good post. No gameplan, vision and imagination in the coaching staff despite talented players. Scrum, Maul, high kick as the only weapons, no creativity. That is spot on. Frustrating to watch, over and over again. We stumble from narrow win to narrow loss to narrow win.

[_Os_]

The Boks clearly tried to run more and put it through the hands in the 2nd test. They worked themselves into good field positions, but a lot of it was lateral and they couldn't capitalise and get over the line. It wasn't kick/lineout/maul.

Backline tries are made at 9/10/12, it's too late once the ball is in the wide channels if there's no space. The outside backs often had nothing to work with. Hendrikse/Pollard/Esterhuizen all basically play the same way, their strength isn't about creating space for those around them, it's about individually doing something. Maybe not an entirely fair statement, Hendrikse can hardly be expected to think phases ahead like Du Preez, Pollard has added quite a bit to his game since he first turned up but his instinct is still to not use his backline (when he first appeared he ran himself a lot), Esterhuizen can create for players outside him with his offloads but that's not structured play and there's a element of luck to it (if the opposition defence is strong he won't get much returns). Basically in a 9/10/12 like that, it all depends on the carrying at 10/12 and either their offloading or the 9 spreading it quickly, it seemed to me Esterhuizen wasn't being used enough and his best carries were after Pollard went off.

This is why Le Roux did so well in the 1st test coming off the bench, when he popped up at first receiver/closer in he made space for those around him. Part of his natural instinct has always been to make space for those around him. It basically makes him undroppable as we don't have many of those. Lambie was similar but concussion forced his retirement. Elton maybe, but you can't really have a 10 with a crumbly kicking game. Am maybe, but he's an outside back there's not much to work with by the time it gets to him.

Hendrikse/Pollard/Esterhuizen are all going to feature again. Pollard because he's the best 10 we've got. Hendrikse because he's similar to Herschel. Esterhuizen because he's similar to De Allende. If you're a coach you want players that are like for like and can be dropped into the side without having to change anything.

[_Os_]

Did Marcell Coetzee played yesterday? He disappeared like Kolisi.. Fourie should have started in 6.

I saw him tackling and carrying into the defence quite a bit.

Roos was the backrow that went missing in the tight (was he ever there?), but it was his first cap.

The Boks have selected a lot of backrows in the few tests there's been since the RWC, if Marcell is the one you want to get rid of then you've made a mistake. A bigger match than he had would've been better, but he wasn't nowhere. To win turnovers consistently two of the backrows need to work together, Read/McCaw used to go in together Read tackling McCaw going for the ball, they always beat Francois Louw who was on his own. if you want your openside to consistently win turnovers they need to work with whoever is the more mobile of the other two backrows (probably the eightman) who makes the tackles for them. Otherwise it's just how many tackles the openside can make in a match, and luck giving them any chances without getting unlucky with penalties.

I think there's a strong chance they're going to use Marcell from the bench, as a like for like replacement for Francois Louw. It could work quite well if Kolisi has a high tackle count and Marcell gets a lot of chances at the ball at the end of matches.

[OomStruisbaai]

You write Filofax on Filofax over Coetzee. He played 31 tests ja he has been tried 31 times but still disappear. Hom many vokking chances do you want to give him?

[_Os_]

You write Filofax on Filofax over Coetzee. He played 31 tests ja he has been tried 31 times but still disappear. Hom many vokking chances do you want to give him?

He didn't disappear though. He tackled and carried.

Do you think Roos was better?

[Chilli]

To be honest, the whole front row was disappointing.
Marvelous Marvin is not a test lock.
The loose trio tried hard, but didn't gel.
9 was ok
10 was ok ish
We never really saw the wings attack , they were good on defense.
AE still can't pass and has tits for hands.
Gallant tried too much and looked like a schoolboy trying to win the game every time he got the ball.

Etzebeth was full value.

[C69]

To put both games into perspective, Wales were far superior in the first game and should have won easily.
Yesterday SA were the better team.

What was astounding yesterday was the fact that Gardiner did not go to the TMO for AWJs yellow.
Could the TMO not point out the matter? Not too sure what they can ruleon tbh, as for the last scrum, these things happen. Just because a scrum goes down it does not mean there is a pen, can any of the Saffers please point out why it was a pen and who shouldhave been penalised please.

Gardiner even admitted he should have penalised the SA scrum because rather than a reset when he realised that one of the SA props had lost a boot and said he wondered why the scrum has scewed.

That both games were close and either side could have won. I doubt the SA fans have much to complain about regards the officiating on the balance of the 2 matches. You have to relaise that mistakes happen but if you are unsure youask the tmo.

[OomStruisbaai]

Boet honestly, those who complain about the refs are bokken mal. I watch the rugby not the ref. I also think Wales have to thank that AWJ yellow. It lifted them. Pollard was a doos not taking all that 3 points on offer. In tests you take that and build the innings.

Full value to Wales, everybody wrote them off but the stick to their guns.

We are experimenting at the moment which is good.

[Torquemada 1420]

We are experimenting at the moment which is good.

Far for me to tell SA how to run their systems but those kind of wholesale changes don't seem to be of any value to me ever, let alone so close to a RWC. And I know Fra has just done the same: and I stated it was a wasted tour from which nothing was learned.

[OomStruisbaai]

We are experimenting at the moment which is good.

Far for me to tell SA how to run their systems but those kind of wholesale changes don't seem to be of any value to me ever, let alone so close to a RWC. And I know Fra has just done the same: and I stated it was a wasted tour from which nothing was learned.

Our whole season changed which force our coaches to have a big squad for the international season which just darted while yours ends next week. They must manage the group well and must give them all a chance to play in a real test. Looking to what follow this series is the only one to give them an opportunity. I mean they could started with the bench players of last week (Kitshoff/Marx/ ext) but they didn't giving the opportunity to the others. Fuck it isn't if Wales bashed us, so now the nervous debutants got their first Test out of the way. They are busy trying to get matches for the B group to keep them playing.


Compare to the Wallabies and All Blacks who are forced to make changes

[C69]

We are experimenting at the moment which is good.

Far for me to tell SA how to run their systems but those kind of wholesale changes don't seem to be of any value to me ever, let alone so close to a RWC. And I know Fra has just done the same: and I stated it was a wasted tour from which nothing was learned.

Our whole season changed which force our coaches to have a big squad for the international season which just darted while yours ends next week. They must manage the group well and must give them all a chance to play in a real test. Looking to what follow this series is the only one to give them an opportunity. I mean they could started with the bench players of last week (Kitshoff/Marx/ ext) but they didn't giving the opportunity to the others. Fuck it isn't if Wales bashed us, so now the nervous debutants got their first Test out of the way. They are busy trying to get matches for the B group to keep them playing.


Compare to the Wallabies and All Blacks who are forced to make changes

Sorry but your post is bollox in a historical context.
The Abs played Ireland a number of years ago and put our a virtually completely different team to the week before.
It was lauded as an AB B team and they won easily.

[OomStruisbaai]

Far for me to tell SA how to run their systems but those kind of wholesale changes don't seem to be of any value to me ever, let alone so close to a RWC. And I know Fra has just done the same: and I stated it was a wasted tour from which nothing was learned.

Our whole season changed which force our coaches to have a big squad for the international season which just darted while yours ends next week. They must manage the group well and must give them all a chance to play in a real test. Looking to what follow this series is the only one to give them an opportunity. I mean they could started with the bench players of last week (Kitshoff/Marx/ ext) but they didn't giving the opportunity to the others. Fuck it isn't if Wales bashed us, so now the nervous debutants got their first Test out of the way. They are busy trying to get matches for the B group to keep them playing.


Compare to the Wallabies and All Blacks who are forced to make changes

Sorry but your post is bollox in a historical context.
The Abs played Ireland a number of years ago and put our a virtually completely different team to the week before.
It was lauded as an AB B team and they won easily.

Sorry but you don't have a clue. I am comparing the current situation.

[OomStruisbaai]

Boks booked on at Hermanus, just around the corner and will only travel om Friday to Slaapstad

[ia801310]

I thought Roos did OK. I wouldn't judge anybody by that game. Normally new players are introduced 1 or 2 at a time into a settled team. I thought Roos was the best of the new players

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/rassie-smiling-bok-loss/

Extremely cynical article by Zelim Nel. Almost claiming that Rassie was pleased to lose so he can shut up the fans.

[Chilli]

Out of a squad of 23, there are 10 former or current $harks players.
Out of the starting 15 there are 8 former or current $harks players.

When you take the $harks results into consideration over the past few years it makes you think that their to ic environment mentality rubbed off on the rest of the Bok team.

[petej]

How has Tommy Reffell played in these matches?

[Sards]

Out of a squad of 23, there are 10 former or current $harks players.
Out of the starting 15 there are 8 former or current $harks players.

When you take the $harks results into consideration over the past few years it makes you think that their to ic environment mentality rubbed off on the rest of the Bok team.

You can include Roos and PSDT....

Sharks are all inclusive. We share our " one love ".

[OomStruisbaai]

It's Etsebeth 100th test on Saturday. Boks by 20.

[OomStruisbaai]

Out of a squad of 23, there are 10 former or current $harks players.
Out of the starting 15 there are 8 former or current $harks players.

When you take the $harks results into consideration over the past few years it makes you think that their to ic environment mentality rubbed off on the rest of the Bok team.

You can include Roos and PSDT....

Sharks are all inclusive. We share our " one love ".

Roos and PSdT stay at the Sharks was a disaster. Both nearly quit rugby after that.