Stop voting for fucking Tories

[ia801310]

Suzanne Moore also hits the nail on the head

https://suzannemoore.substack.com/p/the ... medium=web


The Elephant in The Room: The Tories are Doing Diversity while the Left just talks about it

Suzanne Moore
Jul 9
The elephant isn’t just in the room. It is trumpeting loudly but it is greeted with bemusement, denial, or polite silence.

"I am talking about the Tory leadership race which is full of what the renowned fox-killer now apparently calls “brown” people and those other odd chaps, called women. The Tories can always claim the first ethnic minority PM in Disraeli who was Jewish but they don’t make a song and dance about it.

Jollyon Morn has now deleted his so-called anti-racist tweet perhaps because it was in fact a teensy bit racist ,was it not to suggest that all “brown” people must cleave to the political position of his choosing ie. Labour?

It is possible that we end up with the next Prime Minister actually being the third Conservative woman PM . Or more likely, the first, to put it in the correct terminology “ BAME PM” Sunak, Javid, Braverman ,Zahawi and Badenoch are in the running. Will Patel throw her hat in the ring?

The first two are serious contenders and Badenoch is one to watch for the future. You don’t have to agree with her- I mostly don’t – but she is a force to be reckoned with.

If the Tories are as racist as the left likes to think they are, then it will be Hunt or Truss but does anyone think that seriously? Wallace has left the ring, which of course in some strange way only adds to his image as an honourable man.

Labour could not elect a woman leader even when three stood against one man. It is still very far off from having a BAME leader and yet this is the party that bangs on about equality and inclusivity. It mouths the word “diversity” but what does it really mean?

Marrying non-white women if the former hopes of the Corbynite Left are anything to go by. Is that rude? No it is just the truth. Of course, everyone is individually anti-racist and anti-sexist /whatevs or so they claim. Someone then has to ask what is actually going on?

This is an awkward question and one I wish I didn’t have to ask. But my job is to be an awkward cow as you already know. The answer is surely , some kind of complacency, with a side-order of racism-lite.

All good people have to think one way. The moral high ground is only for certain folk as it is evident we can’t ALL fit in the promised land. Hence black people have to think a certain way, as do all Asian communities. Hugely different cultures are somehow expected to be monotone.

We all know this just isn’t the case. When it came to immigration and the pull of Brexit, we know that many 2nd generation immigrants voted Leave. No, they were not happy with Romanians and Lithuanians using services and taking homes that they considered to be their due. All of this is way more complicated than I am giving it credit for.

Identity always IS.

That is why the left or more specifically the Labour Party which is so intertwined with identity politics on gender and race looks, even in the current chaos, screwed. It is led by a straight white knight. It thinks men can be woman if they feel that to be the case. It thinks there should be more women in power and definitely more BAME people, but this just isn’t happening. Why not? I am not in the Labour Party but have been round it long enough to have an inkling as to why , for sure.

Corbyn and his gang were certainly not feminists. That struggle would be dealt with later. That is always the hard left position. The evil centrists at least introduced Women Only Shortlists which lead to that infamous picture of Blair surrounded by his “babes”. This image always reminded me of Hugh Hefner. With boxy jackets instead of bunny girl costumes.

This is not to say there are not terrific women in the Labour movement. There are and it’s a real shame that many have been expelled for believing in biology/science/reality. Yet everyone is secretly waiting for the King of the North to make his move. By that, I mean for Andy Burnham to be given a safe seat and run for leader.

He was great during the pandemic sure but does that mean Labour will NEVER have a woman leader?

I went to see the fabulous Fran Leibowitz ,the other night and she made a pertinent point about Hillary Clinton when during the 2016 election against Trump, so many people said “I just don’t like her” so did not want to vote for her. Fran’s answer was that Clinton was the best qualified for the job and you didn’t have to like her as she would not be ringing you up every night asking you to dinner.

It's the old ‘Who would you rather have a pint with?’ mentality that also pervades British politics isn’t it? Someone like Yvette Cooper is never gonna fit that bill. Most women aren’t. Leave all that to Farage and his Weatherspoons’ Warriors.

So what is the left going to do? Bang on about diversity for ever and ever and yet not carry it through? That’s how it seems.

I have no skin in this game ,as I often say I would rather boil my own head than vote Tory, but the left has a problem here. We could, in another setting call it structural racism and in-built misogyny. We could and indeed I would.

Kemi Badenoch though she won’t win, is challenging all this. What an interesting politician. The left, if it had its wits about it would realise that her time is not now but it will come and it should have better answers prepared than it has right now.

Because right now its answer is still a form of fantasy politics."

[Tichtheid]

The Tories are so desperate to stoke the culture and/or identity wars because they are sure it's a winner for them.

The Tories have been in power for a long time, it's something like 90 years of them in power since the Labour party came into being in 1900, so any glass ceilings, racial disparity, gender disparity, age disparity, any disparity has not been addressed on their watch.

I resent and totally refute the "up by my own bootstraps" argument the Tories who have "made it" put up, "Oh if only you'd apply yourself you'd be as rich and as good as me"

Get tae fuck

[fishfoodie]

It's just a continuation of the classic, divide & conqueror, that was a constant in the Empire, & every other Colonial system.

In every Country they would exploit existing sectarian, or tribal, or other division, & mark one group as chosen, & then they would use this group as local Administrators, & enforcers. The group would in turn adopt European dress, & use the invaders language, & send their children to European schools.

If you want to get to the top, you ingratiate yourselves to those in power, & become; more English/Tory, than the English themselves !

[I like neeps]

The Tories are so desperate to stoke the culture and/or identity wars because they are sure it's a winner for them.

The Tories have been in power for a long time, it's something like 90 years of them in power since the Labour party came into being in 1900, so any glass ceilings, racial disparity, gender disparity, age disparity, any disparity has not been addressed on their watch.

I resent and totally refute the "up by my own bootstraps" argument the Tories who have "made it" put up, "Oh if only you'd apply yourself you'd be as rich and as good as me"

Get tae fuck

It was a winner. I don't know if "I can't see a GP, my kids behind at school, the fuel bill is now 5x what it was, the weekly shop means I cut back on treats and my holiday was cancelled" is placated by "well at least they know what a woman is".

[ASMO]

It's just a continuation of the classic, divide & conqueror, that was a constant in the Empire, & every other Colonial system.

In every Country they would exploit existing sectarian, or tribal, or other division, & mark one group as chosen, & then they would use this group as local Administrators, & enforcers. The group would in turn adopt European dress, & use the invaders language, & send their children to European schools.

If you want to get to the top, you ingratiate yourselves to those in power, & become; more English/Tory, than the English themselves !

Loads of the Politerati are Indian and Pakistani and they are well known for being conservative classest dicks. Of course they vote Tory and colour has fuck all to do with it

Indeed, they put our class system to shame with the caste system which is still endemic over there, Patel probably classes all the "immigrants" as untouchables.

[I like neeps]

Meanwhile, tax dodger/Greensill shill/public money heat my stables Nadhim Zahawi has decided to cut 30bn from the NHS and 9bn from the MoD to lower taxes.

[ASMO]

Meanwhile, tax dodger/Greensill shill/public money heat my stables Nadhim Zahawi has decided to cut 30bn from the NHS and 9bn from the MoD to lower taxes.

Clearly going for the privatisation option, if he was serious those numbers would be the other way around, the UK is a joke militarily anyway so just make sure we have enough to suppress the poor on home and that should be good enough.

[I like neeps]

Meanwhile, tax dodger/Greensill shill/public money heat my stables Nadhim Zahawi has decided to cut 30bn from the NHS and 9bn from the MoD to lower taxes.

Clearly going for the privatisation option, if he was serious those numbers would be the other way around, the UK is a joke militarily anyway so just make sure we have enough to suppress the poor on home and that should be good enough.

He's going for the deeply unserious moron who has less chance of becoming PM than the re-animated corpse of Margaret Thatcher option. Absolutely nobody believes this nonsense. Still, doing a good job of tanking his reputation. If the press ever decide to stop with the fiction Brexit helped the vaccine rollout he'll crawl back to tax dodging obscurity.

This guy is gold. In a cost of living crisis he announces he's so rich he doesn't know how much money he has:

[Torquemada 1420]

And yet more dodgy lobbying with disreputable businesses

https://us15.campaign-archive.com/?u=0d ... 20e13a1558

[petej]

Suzanne Moore also hits the nail on the head

https://suzannemoore.substack.com/p/the ... medium=web


The Elephant in The Room: The Tories are Doing Diversity while the Left just talks about it

Suzanne Moore
Jul 9
The elephant isn’t just in the room. It is trumpeting loudly but it is greeted with bemusement, denial, or polite silence.

"I am talking about the Tory leadership race which is full of what the renowned fox-killer now apparently calls “brown” people and those other odd chaps, called women. The Tories can always claim the first ethnic minority PM in Disraeli who was Jewish but they don’t make a song and dance about it.

Jollyon Morn has now deleted his so-called anti-racist tweet perhaps because it was in fact a teensy bit racist ,was it not to suggest that all “brown” people must cleave to the political position of his choosing ie. Labour?

It is possible that we end up with the next Prime Minister actually being the third Conservative woman PM . Or more likely, the first, to put it in the correct terminology “ BAME PM” Sunak, Javid, Braverman ,Zahawi and Badenoch are in the running. Will Patel throw her hat in the ring?

The first two are serious contenders and Badenoch is one to watch for the future. You don’t have to agree with her- I mostly don’t – but she is a force to be reckoned with.

If the Tories are as racist as the left likes to think they are, then it will be Hunt or Truss but does anyone think that seriously? Wallace has left the ring, which of course in some strange way only adds to his image as an honourable man.

Labour could not elect a woman leader even when three stood against one man. It is still very far off from having a BAME leader and yet this is the party that bangs on about equality and inclusivity. It mouths the word “diversity” but what does it really mean?

Marrying non-white women if the former hopes of the Corbynite Left are anything to go by. Is that rude? No it is just the truth. Of course, everyone is individually anti-racist and anti-sexist /whatevs or so they claim. Someone then has to ask what is actually going on?

This is an awkward question and one I wish I didn’t have to ask. But my job is to be an awkward cow as you already know. The answer is surely , some kind of complacency, with a side-order of racism-lite.

All good people have to think one way. The moral high ground is only for certain folk as it is evident we can’t ALL fit in the promised land. Hence black people have to think a certain way, as do all Asian communities. Hugely different cultures are somehow expected to be monotone.

We all know this just isn’t the case. When it came to immigration and the pull of Brexit, we know that many 2nd generation immigrants voted Leave. No, they were not happy with Romanians and Lithuanians using services and taking homes that they considered to be their due. All of this is way more complicated than I am giving it credit for.

Identity always IS.

That is why the left or more specifically the Labour Party which is so intertwined with identity politics on gender and race looks, even in the current chaos, screwed. It is led by a straight white knight. It thinks men can be woman if they feel that to be the case. It thinks there should be more women in power and definitely more BAME people, but this just isn’t happening. Why not? I am not in the Labour Party but have been round it long enough to have an inkling as to why , for sure.

Corbyn and his gang were certainly not feminists. That struggle would be dealt with later. That is always the hard left position. The evil centrists at least introduced Women Only Shortlists which lead to that infamous picture of Blair surrounded by his “babes”. This image always reminded me of Hugh Hefner. With boxy jackets instead of bunny girl costumes.

This is not to say there are not terrific women in the Labour movement. There are and it’s a real shame that many have been expelled for believing in biology/science/reality. Yet everyone is secretly waiting for the King of the North to make his move. By that, I mean for Andy Burnham to be given a safe seat and run for leader.

He was great during the pandemic sure but does that mean Labour will NEVER have a woman leader?

I went to see the fabulous Fran Leibowitz ,the other night and she made a pertinent point about Hillary Clinton when during the 2016 election against Trump, so many people said “I just don’t like her” so did not want to vote for her. Fran’s answer was that Clinton was the best qualified for the job and you didn’t have to like her as she would not be ringing you up every night asking you to dinner.

It's the old ‘Who would you rather have a pint with?’ mentality that also pervades British politics isn’t it? Someone like Yvette Cooper is never gonna fit that bill. Most women aren’t. Leave all that to Farage and his Weatherspoons’ Warriors.

So what is the left going to do? Bang on about diversity for ever and ever and yet not carry it through? That’s how it seems.

I have no skin in this game ,as I often say I would rather boil my own head than vote Tory, but the left has a problem here. We could, in another setting call it structural racism and in-built misogyny. We could and indeed I would.

Kemi Badenoch though she won’t win, is challenging all this. What an interesting politician. The left, if it had its wits about it would realise that her time is not now but it will come and it should have better answers prepared than it has right now.

Because right now its answer is still a form of fantasy politics."

The article doesn't consider why this is. Firstly, jolyon isn't part of the Labour party. Secondly, as well covered in the excellent short history of England our upper class/elite has always accepted a small number of incoming elites. Thirdly, we are more class based than race. Fourthly, the rightwing UK press might leave the Tories alone but would be absolutely horrific towards the equivalent labour representative (Rayner, lammy, Abbott as recent examples).

[I like neeps]

Suzanne Moore also hits the nail on the head

https://suzannemoore.substack.com/p/the ... medium=web


The Elephant in The Room: The Tories are Doing Diversity while the Left just talks about it

Suzanne Moore
Jul 9
The elephant isn’t just in the room. It is trumpeting loudly but it is greeted with bemusement, denial, or polite silence.

"I am talking about the Tory leadership race which is full of what the renowned fox-killer now apparently calls “brown” people and those other odd chaps, called women. The Tories can always claim the first ethnic minority PM in Disraeli who was Jewish but they don’t make a song and dance about it.

Jollyon Morn has now deleted his so-called anti-racist tweet perhaps because it was in fact a teensy bit racist ,was it not to suggest that all “brown” people must cleave to the political position of his choosing ie. Labour?

It is possible that we end up with the next Prime Minister actually being the third Conservative woman PM . Or more likely, the first, to put it in the correct terminology “ BAME PM” Sunak, Javid, Braverman ,Zahawi and Badenoch are in the running. Will Patel throw her hat in the ring?

The first two are serious contenders and Badenoch is one to watch for the future. You don’t have to agree with her- I mostly don’t – but she is a force to be reckoned with.

If the Tories are as racist as the left likes to think they are, then it will be Hunt or Truss but does anyone think that seriously? Wallace has left the ring, which of course in some strange way only adds to his image as an honourable man.

Labour could not elect a woman leader even when three stood against one man. It is still very far off from having a BAME leader and yet this is the party that bangs on about equality and inclusivity. It mouths the word “diversity” but what does it really mean?

Marrying non-white women if the former hopes of the Corbynite Left are anything to go by. Is that rude? No it is just the truth. Of course, everyone is individually anti-racist and anti-sexist /whatevs or so they claim. Someone then has to ask what is actually going on?

This is an awkward question and one I wish I didn’t have to ask. But my job is to be an awkward cow as you already know. The answer is surely , some kind of complacency, with a side-order of racism-lite.

All good people have to think one way. The moral high ground is only for certain folk as it is evident we can’t ALL fit in the promised land. Hence black people have to think a certain way, as do all Asian communities. Hugely different cultures are somehow expected to be monotone.

We all know this just isn’t the case. When it came to immigration and the pull of Brexit, we know that many 2nd generation immigrants voted Leave. No, they were not happy with Romanians and Lithuanians using services and taking homes that they considered to be their due. All of this is way more complicated than I am giving it credit for.

Identity always IS.

That is why the left or more specifically the Labour Party which is so intertwined with identity politics on gender and race looks, even in the current chaos, screwed. It is led by a straight white knight. It thinks men can be woman if they feel that to be the case. It thinks there should be more women in power and definitely more BAME people, but this just isn’t happening. Why not? I am not in the Labour Party but have been round it long enough to have an inkling as to why , for sure.

Corbyn and his gang were certainly not feminists. That struggle would be dealt with later. That is always the hard left position. The evil centrists at least introduced Women Only Shortlists which lead to that infamous picture of Blair surrounded by his “babes”. This image always reminded me of Hugh Hefner. With boxy jackets instead of bunny girl costumes.

This is not to say there are not terrific women in the Labour movement. There are and it’s a real shame that many have been expelled for believing in biology/science/reality. Yet everyone is secretly waiting for the King of the North to make his move. By that, I mean for Andy Burnham to be given a safe seat and run for leader.

He was great during the pandemic sure but does that mean Labour will NEVER have a woman leader?

I went to see the fabulous Fran Leibowitz ,the other night and she made a pertinent point about Hillary Clinton when during the 2016 election against Trump, so many people said “I just don’t like her” so did not want to vote for her. Fran’s answer was that Clinton was the best qualified for the job and you didn’t have to like her as she would not be ringing you up every night asking you to dinner.

It's the old ‘Who would you rather have a pint with?’ mentality that also pervades British politics isn’t it? Someone like Yvette Cooper is never gonna fit that bill. Most women aren’t. Leave all that to Farage and his Weatherspoons’ Warriors.

So what is the left going to do? Bang on about diversity for ever and ever and yet not carry it through? That’s how it seems.

I have no skin in this game ,as I often say I would rather boil my own head than vote Tory, but the left has a problem here. We could, in another setting call it structural racism and in-built misogyny. We could and indeed I would.

Kemi Badenoch though she won’t win, is challenging all this. What an interesting politician. The left, if it had its wits about it would realise that her time is not now but it will come and it should have better answers prepared than it has right now.

Because right now its answer is still a form of fantasy politics."

The article doesn't consider why this is. Firstly, jolyon isn't part of the Labour party. Secondly, as well covered in the excellent short history of England our upper class/elite has always accepted a small number of incoming elites. Thirdly, we are more class based than race. Fourthly, the rightwing UK press might leave the Tories alone but would be absolutely horrific towards the equivalent labour representative (Rayner, lammy, Abbott as recent examples).

With the exception of Javid (who last leadership election wanted an investigation into islamophobia in the Tory party as he knows it's an issue let's remember). All of them went to expensive schools. Sunak (Winchester one of the most expensive fee paying schools in the country), Badenoch (international fee paying school in Nigeria), Zahawi (Kings College Wimbledon one of the most exclusive fee paying schools in the country), Braverman (minor fee paying school). You're right it's very class based.

I agree about the press as well. Just imagine Zahawi saying what he says if he was Labour.

But I do think labour has a problem with their lack of minority leaders.

[SaintK]

Surprise, surprise!!

At least six Conservative ministers, including the then chancellor, George Osborne, and the future health secretary Matt Hancock, did not declare secret meetings at which they were lobbied by Uber, leaked files reveal.
Uber lobbyists met the UK ministers between 2014 and 2016 as the controversial cab-hailing app was in the throes of fraught negotiations to win access to the lucrative British market.
A secret meeting with Osborne in California was also attended by senior executives at Google, and took place just months before he unveiled what turned out to be an utterly ineffective tax on tech companies.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022 ... reveals

[tabascoboy]

Well, the infighting and sniping between the Tory leadership hopefuls seems to be well underway already. While I'm a non Tory voter, depressing that none of them appear to have any redeeming qualities and each one seems to be in full support of a policy I strongly disagree with but we're going to end with one of them running the country for at least a couple of years barring or even Labour etc manage to force a Vote of No Confidence in Parliament.

[Paddington Bear]

I know that they've got a leadership contest to win and that requires the same old slogans and red meat, but it is pretty depressing that none seem to grasp how serious the economic picture may be later this year and how bad the last decade has been for economic growth.

[SaintK]

Getting spicy. TBH I hope it gets spicier for all of them

Rishi Sunak is a “schoolboy” and a “liar” who cannot be trusted on tax, according to a “mucky memo” being circulated among Tory MPs.

The race to replace Boris Johnson as prime minister descended into all-out-war on Sunday as the highly critical missive, ironically headlined “Get Ready for Rishi”, declared “there is nothing Conservative about the ‘Big Tax and Big Spend’ agenda of Rishi Sunak”.

It comes amid an increasingly bitter briefing war between the leading rivals as Sir Graham Brady, the chairman of the 1922 committee, prepares to announce the timetable for the leadership campaign on Monday.
A “dirty dossier” is now spreading like wildfire across Tory WhatsApp groups accusing Mr Sunak of “enabling Boris Johnson’s reckless over-spending and increased UK taxes to the highest level since Clement Attlee”.

The author is unknown but the Telegraph has been told the extraordinary 424-word salvo has been written by someone on the right of the party to avoid “a coronation”.

A Tory source said: “It’s coming from that Thatcherite wing of the party that was loyal to Bori

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://w ... atsapp/

[Torquemada 1420]

It's getting messy and so, in time honoured fashion, in blue!

You used the term "race". I specifically talked in terms of ethnicity and culture. But you are still wrong. Race is or can be based on biology. The Persians?

You're too intelligent to think racial categories as broad as "white", "black", "Indian" have any biological basis. There's as much variations inside those groups as there is between them, the variation inside the black group is especially extreme. They're purely political categories constructed based on appearance. I'm unfamiliar with Persian genetics.
I agree generally but in the EA scenario, it was as distinct as that: at least as could be in biological terms. But, as I keep stating, I was specifically talking about ethnicity and culture.

I mostly just focused on you thinking "coconut" is a legitimate categorisation, and replied in good faith.

Don't really need a lecture on East Africa. It was where I was brought up! You are wrong about your depiction (although I may have misread it). The East African Asians couldn't reach the political top because whilst Uganda, Kenya and, to a lesser extent Tanzania, were still British colonies, the Brits occupied all those slots. When the Brits left, early doors they maintained that control with varying degrees of puppet leader blacks: Obote and Amin being one extreme whereas Nyerere largely told the Brits to bugger off. What the Asians did was to take control of most businesses. The reasons for how and why they were able to pretty much monopolise this are not relevant to this debate e.g. the Madhvanis. You are correct that they saw themselves as superior to the blacks (just as the hypocrite Gandhi did to both blacks and Muslims) which was a considerable contributor to their subsequent expulsion from Uganda.

It's a good example of how race functions politically. Indians started out as indentured labourers (although many of these returned to India), then some Indian traders also migrated there. The British favoured them (more money spent on their education etc), this is how they ended up dominating white collar professions (finance), and how much of the economy was basically dominated by Indians (were business licences given preferentially by the British? I can't remember). The entire basis for this was political and Indians positioning themselves as an intermediary between blacks and whites, it wasn't some self evident natural thing it was made that way. Back to people from an East African Asian background today, people like Patel aren't really betraying anyone ("coconuts") when they're behaving much like those before them did. But it seems you knew all this ...
This is actually incorrect. The British spent nothing in terms of favour towards the Indians' education. Again, beyond scope of discussion, but I could argue they spent MORE on the Africans via the politically motivated Aid To East Africa program (along with the Yanks). What the Indians did was to set up their own schools so their kids did not go to the same schools as the Africans. There as no licencing per se except where it specifically involved Govt. based contracts. The driver was the Indians' ready access to finance i.e. from within families collectively or from banking connections back home.

Anyway, racially, culturally and ethnically, you could differentiate Brits, Africans and the Asians. These were real world attributes and not artificial constructs.

Obviously if racial segregation was maintained and the amount of migrants was small and recent, all these migrants coming from distinct cultures. Which was basically East Africa around independence. Then as you say it's easy to differentiate people based on their immutable physical differences. Race as a political construct then precisely overlaps with reality, the people who look different also have a separate culture etc. That's not the case if there's been mass migration and you're 10+ generations deep. One of the many reasons apartheid failed, was because it proved impossible to categorise all people into black/white/coloured/Indian. The pencil test is probably a good indication of something fake being imposed on the world.
Yes. I think we are agreeing here and is a repeat of my first point in blue. The relatively short time frames involved PLUS the Asians' deliberate policy of refusing to integrate (as they did when they came to the UK) simply maintained the separation.

You think people from a Carribean background are fully integrated into the UK? Really? There is no racial/ethnic/cultural group in the UK that feels (and I mean this is what they feel) so deprived and isolated from main society. Yes, that is driven by economic hardship forced upon then but the impact is for them to isolate further socially/culturally. Don't believe me? Then how is it that the gang culture is strongest of all amongst the newest generation of young black men? Clearly you recognise all of that in the remainder of your description.

It was Sowell who described black American gang culture (or what later became that) as being something appropriated from rebellious migrants from Celtic parts of the British Isles who settled in the American South, who they would've been living in close proximity with. I'm really struggling with the idea that people who have had English/British culture imposed on them for half a millennia are not assimilated. I think they are, just not into the part of the culture you would like them to be. Of course they value a black political identity, it was Marcus Garvey who said it was oppression that made black people black. A bit rough imposing a black identity on people for centuries as the basis for their oppression and exclusion, then saying they're not integrated because they now value a black identity.

And I think this is where the "coconut" thing comes in really. Someone from Africa or with African parents (whatever identity they have, Africa is highly heterogenous), just doesn't have the same identity as someone from a Caribbean background. But if you've constructed the core of your identity around a race, and see a group of people sharing that racial category but less invested in it politically, it's going to be upsetting for some. If you look at the names, most of the people being called "coconuts" have an African background, and most doing the name calling do not.
Garvey has something of a point and controversially to some, there are Black thinkers who will argue that it is Blacks themselves who help to perpetuate the slave mentality. But we are off topic. Very significant numbers of Black male youths do not identify themselves as being an equal (ceteris paribus) part of British society. They are alienated. We could argue what other indicators say but, in the end, cogit ergo sum applies. They are what they think they are because that drives their behaviour. So we disagree.

Not relevant to the discussion but I think your assertion that the English working classes place(d) no value upon education is absolutely wrong. I'd argue that until the whole education system was devalued anyway (late 80s onwards), getting an education was a huge driver for offering the chance to have a different (I won't use the word escape because that demeans perfectly respectable blue collar occupations) amongst working classes. The grammar school system served exactly that.

English cultural generally but especially working class culture isn't intellectual and doesn't favour education. Orwell was saying it long before any of us were around. There's a lot of accounts of the first waves of West Indian migrants being completely shocked about the working class conditions they found themselves in.
Those are 2 separate things! Again, we disagree on working class culture. Post war, I believe that the British working classes moved towards valuing education. And we could probably find numbers** that support that in terms of 6th form stayers and university attendees. The barriers to achievement transitioned from attitudinal to economic. The fact that educated Carribeans arrived to be dumped amidst poorer social classes and were shocked by these conditions is hardly a surprise. Dear Sir....
** I'm ignoring the post 80s where the dilution of the entire education system would render the data meaningless.

The term "coconut" is not limited to blacks wanting to be whites. It has become much more generalised than that. Asians ripped the p*ss out of this in Goodness Gracious Me with the the Coopers (Kapoors) and Robinsons (Rabindranaths). And there is a reverse i.e. most Asians in Britain will refer to newbies coming from India as "homies" which are characterised by call centre speak and the absence of body hygiene products.

But, black and white are just political constructs. You have to define what "black" and "white" is culturally for what you're saying to make sense. The first migrants from the West Indies that arrived in the UK could already speak English and already considered themselves British in some form. This is not about "wanting to be whites", this was literally the identity imposed on their ancestors and so them too. Being culturally distinct isn't about "body hygiene products" (you can't seriously be claiming "coconut" is a legitimate category on this basis?), it's about speaking a different language and worshipping a completely different god etc.

Without reference to race, you can't actually explain to me how a working class black British person from a Caribbean background is any different to a working class white British person. There is a cigarette paper of cultural difference between them. Which is why mixed race working class people often come from these two groups.
We aren't going to agree on the measures for any particular nomenclature (as I suggested in the 1st post, even groups themselves argue) but a common language absolutely does not indicate cultural or ethnic commonality. Ask a keewee or a Yank if he thinks he is British! You are completely wrong in your last assertion. Everything from food, religion, music, family structures and relationships (all of which are much stronger indicators of culture than language is) differs. There is hardly a white working class Brit who would know what a pattie is, has attended a gospel church, will have listened to Linton Kwesi Johnson or would think that their parents should live with them or their kids spend unsolicited time at aunts'/uncles' or vice versa.

[fishfoodie]

Good to see that the Tory Party has such a depth of talent, that they are able to field 11 candidates

The Whatsapp screed is obviously from the Bumblecunts cheerleaders, as the criticisms of Rishi aren't, really criticisms of him, but of the entire Cabinet, & in particular, the PM; & half the fucking Cabinet is running for the job !

Remember Rishi was only Chancellor, because Javid resigned, rather than accept his Ministry being neutered, by passing over final say over all financial matters to No.10.

[Torquemada 1420]

Interesting points.

I'd definitely tend to agree that there has always been a fair degree of solidarity between (politically left wing) white working class people and black British people with roots in the Caribbean. That's what Two Tone music was all about.

That was far more a political ideology thing than a class thing. For every T-T fan, there was a (racist) skinhead. A few years ago I was talking with Neville Staple about how the 2 Tone concerts saw the worst violence of all because they attracted white working classes from opposite ends of ideology.

BTW, Dammers called it Two-Tone because it was a fusion of Ska and punk. And maybe some bits of new wave. The followers of Ska were obviously mainly Black whereas the reverse was true for the other 2 genres. Walt Jabsco was based on Peter Tosh...... who was most certainly Black! The "tone" was the tone in music and not skin tone. It was happy coincidence that it could be read both ways.

[PCPhil]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... d-24454556

Tory MP Jamie Wallis fled 'crashed Mercedes while wearing leather mini-skirt and high heels', court told

I say fair play to him. Many a fit girl finds it hard to run in high heels and he’s definitely on the well rounded side.

[ia801310]

I know for you guys, anybody to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is a fascist. To most people Suzanne Moore and the New Statesman are left-of-centre.

The point they are both making are summed up by the following quotes:

"Jollyon Morn has now deleted his so-called anti-racist tweet perhaps because it was in fact a teensy bit racist ,was it not to suggest that all “brown” people must cleave to the political position of his choosing ie. Labour?"

(the left believe that) "All good people have to think one way. The moral high ground is only for certain folk as it is evident we can’t ALL fit in the promised land. Hence black people have to think a certain way, as do all Asian communities. Hugely different cultures are somehow expected to be monotone."

"The problem with this mindset – framing the relationship between ethnic minority people and conservatism as a remarkable contradiction – is that it justifies the racist hostility directed against many prominent conservative politicians. In aligning themselves with the party, so the argument goes, they have fundamentally betrayed their identity. The nature of the insults that someone like Kemi Badenoch receives reflects this dynamic – she is called a coon, a house negro, and so forth, by many people who strangely also call themselves anti-racist."

"But the third and most pressing point is this: why shouldn’t an ethnic minority person be a Conservative? If we accept that not all ethnic minority people are the same – which should be the first plank of anti-racism – then we have to accept that they do not all share the same political perspective. And nor should they."

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... d-24454556

Tory MP Jamie Wallis fled 'crashed Mercedes while wearing leather mini-skirt and high heels', court told

I say fair play to him. Many a fit girl finds it hard to run in high heels and he’s definitely on the well rounded side.

My memory failing. Was it Bouch who was from Bridgend and used to write a kinda newsletter on the old board way back?

[Torquemada 1420]

"But the third and most pressing point is this: why shouldn’t an ethnic minority person be a Conservative? If we accept that not all ethnic minority people are the same – which should be the first plank of anti-racism – then we have to accept that they do not all share the same political perspective. And nor should they."

There is no reason why an ethnic minority should not be a Tory any more that one should be allowed to hate reggae but love country and western! In both instances, the question is why? The Tories are fundamentally a classist and racist institution.

AND
Decisive majority of Tory voters back leaving ECHR over Rwanda policy

Like the Met.
So what would motivate one to join?
1) A noble and well meaning attempt to drive change from within upon an institution whose principles you dislike but with the goal of making society a better place?
2) To become one of them specifically to benefit from the same privileges which are in part propped up by the misuse of power driven by those same principles?

The reason so many of the Tories' tokens get the flack they do is because people perceive them all to be 2).

[sturginho]

I know for you guys, anybody to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is a fascist.

yes, you've certainly got our number

[_Os_]

Interesting points.

I'd definitely tend to agree that there has always been a fair degree of solidarity between (politically left wing) white working class people and black British people with roots in the Caribbean. That's what Two Tone music was all about.

There is a long list of Caribbean thinkers, writers and activists (Garvey, Stokely Carmichael, CLR James, Fanon, Peter Tosh, Lilian Thuram) who have challenged white supremacy and the economic structures that have sustained it that there is a natural kinship between the two groups.

You're maybe showing your age with the Two Tone reference! Jungle and dnb could've only come about in the same way, with people from the same type of background involved as with ska-punk. Grime comes from the same background again with a lot of overlap with dnb and garage early on.

Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" was probably the best thing I've read on the topic (I've read most of your list). He's conservative so is often dismissed by those that don't even read him. The one liner of what he argues is that black American culture in the South was originally adopted from the Celtic migrants they lived with, which then much later became black American ghetto/gangster culture. Which people then decided was "black culture" (as if such a thing exists for such a broad heterogenous group).

Sticking with the music theme. You notice odd stuff when you become aware of the Celtic influence. The lyrics in this grime track includes the word "shebeen", every Saffa will know that word because it's in common usage in SA. I've never heard any English person use the word. Wondering why he was using an SA word I Googled it one day, and found it was actually an Irish word that's in common usage in the Caribbean and Southern Africa.

[SaintK]

To most people Suzanne Moore and the New Statesman are left-of-centre.

She writes for that well known lefty rag The Daily Telegraph.

[Torquemada 1420]

Quelle surprise

Ex-Formula One CEO charged with fraud.

[fishfoodie]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... d-24454556

Tory MP Jamie Wallis fled 'crashed Mercedes while wearing leather mini-skirt and high heels', court told

I say fair play to him. Many a fit girl finds it hard to run in high heels and he’s definitely on the well rounded side.

It's even harder when you're shitfaced ....

[petej]

Blah, blah blah

To me this just says you are easily distracted and can't filter between bullshit and bigger concerns. Big concerns (in no particular order):
Climate change,
Ukraine War,
Brexit and its fallout,
Cost of living,
Housing,
Falling living standards,
Etc....

Bullshit:
The writings of an old columnist regurgitating identity bollocks and Twitter rubbish for column inches.

Conclusion: Poster is not a serious person and easily distracted.

[fishfoodie]

Anything to distract from the skipfire that is the best the Tory Party can deliver !

Twelve years in power, & they're putting the Country in a worse position than it was when it joined the EEC

[ia801310]

Blah, blah blah

To me this just says you are easily distracted and can't filter between bullshit and bigger concerns. Big concerns (in no particular order):
Climate change,
Ukraine War,
Brexit and its fallout,
Cost of living,
Housing,
Falling living standards,
Etc....

Bullshit:
The writings of an old columnist regurgitating identity bollocks and Twitter rubbish for column inches.

Conclusion: Poster is not a serious person and easily distracted.

It's a real mystery as to why Labour keep losing General Election after General Election after General Election

[SaintK]

It's a real mystery as to why Labour keep losing General Election after General Election after General Election

Because they've previously voted in leaders that aren't electable
They have got one who is now, with a reasonably disciplined team. I may change the habit of a lifetime and vote |Labour for the first time at the next election. Particularly if we end up with any of the entitled arseholes (the ones whose names I recognise) who have put themselves forward to lead the Tory party

[SaintK]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... d-24454556

Tory MP Jamie Wallis fled 'crashed Mercedes while wearing leather mini-skirt and high heels', court told

I say fair play to him. Many a fit girl finds it hard to run in high heels and he’s definitely on the well rounded side.

It's even harder when you're shitfaced ....

He appears to have got off reasonably lightly.

An MP has been found guilty of failing to stop and report an accident after crashing his car in the early hours of 28 November last year.
Bridgend's Conservative MP, Jamie Wallis was also found guilty of leaving his car in a dangerous position.
He was cleared of a charge of driving without due care and attention.
Wallis was fined £2,500 and disqualified from driving for six months.
District Judge Tan Ikram dismissed one charge against Wallis and said the case had not been proven that the MP was driving without due care and attention.
Convicting him of the other charges, Judge Ikram said: "I am going to be upfront, I didn't find the defendant credible in the evidence he gave".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-po ... 118964

[I like neeps]

It's a real mystery as to why Labour keep losing General Election after General Election after General Election

Because they've previously voted in leaders that aren't electable
They have got one who is now, with a reasonably disciplined team. I may change the habit of a lifetime and vote |Labour for the first time at the next election. Particularly if we end up with any of the entitled arseholes (the ones whose names I recognise) who have put themselves forward to lead the Tory party

The chaos with Ed Miliband thing is cliche now as if he was voted in then the country today would be a far better place.

[Insane_Homer]

Brexshit opportunities minister better start finding those unicorns to pay for it all.

[SaintK]

Dear God, no.......................not ever!!!

[petej]

Brexshit opportunities minister better start finding those unicorns to pay for it all.

Just part of the panto to become Tory leader. Flinging custard tarts at each other would be more interesting.

[ia801310]

Blah, blah blah

To me this just says you are easily distracted and can't filter between bullshit and bigger concerns. Big concerns (in no particular order):
Climate change,
Ukraine War,
Brexit and its fallout,
Cost of living,
Housing,
Falling living standards,
Etc....

Bullshit:
The writings of an old columnist regurgitating identity bollocks and Twitter rubbish for column inches.

Conclusion: Poster is not a serious person and easily distracted.

Sorry I forgot to add that the only reason we are talking about "Identity Bollocks" is because Jolyon Maugham, the Patron Saint of Wokeness decided to stick his 2 left feet in.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20267 ... eet-sunak/

All this row has shown is that the left "white saviours" talk the talk regarding diversity whilst the right walk the walk.

[ia801310]

Dear God, no.......................not ever!!!

My order of preference for PM

1. Patel
2. Badenoch
3. Sunak
4. Zahawi

[ASMO]

Dear God, no.......................not ever!!!

My order of preference for PM

1. Patel
2. Badenoch
3. Sunak
4. Zahawi

You really want that utter fascist shitwitch as prime minister?

[ia801310]

Dear God, no.......................not ever!!!

My order of preference for PM

1. Patel
2. Badenoch
3. Sunak
4. Zahawi

You really want that utter fascist shitwitch as prime minister?

Big time