Stop voting for fucking Tories

[I like neeps]

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/macron- ... ce/2668345

Macron is absolutely correct, Truss must also deliver this speech. Great chance to cosplay Thatcher as she loved giving people tough medicine and building a broken economy.

[Insane_Homer]

[SaintK]

What the Daily Mail think................Dacre still desparate for his peerage

[SaintK]

What the voting public think....even Tories

[Tichtheid]

Re what is happening in Liverpool, it's probably just as well the Tories have been in power for twelve years. Otherwise we might not have been so well prepared for a pandemic.

We may have lost the circa hundred and thirty thousand lives due to austerity as per an article in the BMJ, but hey, at least the Government were fiscally at the top of their game, eh?

[fishfoodie]

What the Daily Mail think................Dacre still desparate for his peerage

At what point will Dacre start sucking up to DIzzy Lizzie ?

I mean the only reason they're pursuing this, defense, of the cunt, is they know that when he's found guilty, he's gone from Politics, & there won't be any Messianic return to lead the Tories again, after Truss inevitably fucks it up, & loses the next Election.

This plan to continually bring up the worst PM the UK has probably ever had, & present him as a solution to multiple crisis's that he fucking created, will surely just piss off the rest of the Party, that is trying to bury this history ?

[fishfoodie]

[I like neeps]

Another success for the Tories.

[fishfoodie]

Another success for the Tories.

Energy companies now asking for £100 Billion to cap Energy costs for the UK, & avoid who knows what in terms of societal breakdown, & deaths from hypothermia, & frankly starvation, as the most vulnerable have to choose between essentials.

With that kind of money, they could have upgraded most of the house stock in the UK !

It also neatly shows why if there's any spare cash in the back of the sofa, you're better off spending it on weapons, & sending them to Ukraine, if it'll shortens the War ! An Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier, & 24 F35Bs cost less than £9 billion, so just the UKs additional energy costs for the next couple of years, would turn the Ukraine into a force that could beat up the Orc rabble worse than any red headed stepchild !

[tabascoboy]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

[I like neeps]

Another success for the Tories.

Energy companies now asking for £100 Billion to cap Energy costs for the UK, & avoid who knows what in terms of societal breakdown, & deaths from hypothermia, & frankly starvation, as the most vulnerable have to choose between essentials.

With that kind of money, they could have upgraded most of the house stock in the UK !

It also neatly shows why if there's any spare cash in the back of the sofa, you're better off spending it on weapons, & sending them to Ukraine, if it'll shortens the War ! An Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier, & 24 F35Bs cost less than £9 billion, so just the UKs additional energy costs for the next couple of years, would turn the Ukraine into a force that could beat up the Orc rabble worse than any red headed stepchild !

There's no money behind the sofa and if it doesn't shorten the war (and there's really no guarantees and nobody knows if it will) then you're kind of screwed. Also shortening the war doesn't actually help with energy costs... It's not "unlucky Vlad, get the pumps on again". The energy prices will be high for years, it's something that hasn't yet been cottoned on too. Europe used russian energy because they can produce it at lower cost than other viable sources so it made business sense...

The 100bn won't happen, the energy firms are trying to keep demand high. Imagine how much money they'll make from these oh so generous deals they're proposing. The government needs to lower demand as they're doing across Europe. It really is that simple. But it won't happen as the Tories are mad ideologues.

[SaintK]

Cah for access still alive and well

The Tories are selling access to the new chancellor and senior ministers ​at almost £3,000 a ticket for corporate leaders and lobbyists at their autumn conference, saying it will help firms “take your business to the next level”.

The party is advertising spaces for its “prestigious” annual business day at £2,990 a head, saying it will give attenders the chance to interact with “key decision makers in the party”.

[Paddington Bear]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

I don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of twitter commentators think, but I suspect a major tax hike will see a lot of young people emigrate to Australia

[I like neeps]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

I don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of twitter commentators think, but I suspect a major tax hike will see a lot of young people emigrate to Australia

The article is just them saying they didn't have what young people today have when growing up: lattes, foreign holidays, phones, 0% interest rates etc and they had to work hard.

Which is fair enough - they didn't have those things. They did however have the biggest wealth creation trick ever in house prices and privatisation of everything though. So who is to say.

It's funny, all those posts are basically "our lives were terrible, so yours should be too".

[_Os_]

I'm cautious about anything the Telegraph comes out with. It used to be respectable about 10+ years ago, it's now a shithouse rag. Best to don the protective gear like you're venturing into Chernobyl before reading it.

It seems to thrive on creating and propagating animosity between people, the editorial framing is nearly always of conflict between people. Generational conflict is an obvious move for them, of course people's own children and grandchildren are now "the other". The nonsense about the "Woke" is often just the same thing.

But the Telegraph is useful in gaining an insight into the way most Tory members and supporters think, it's one of their inhouse publications. I don't think old people anywhere generally want those younger than them reduced to some form of poverty, it's just a Tory thing.

It's worthwhile putting on the protective gear sometimes though, there's some funny stuff in the Telegraph. Apparently the UK has been horrendously fucked by Tory rule (has anyone told them if there isn't a Tory PM there's a Labour one?) and at the same time Brexit is also a non-issue that has had so little impact it doesn't warrant being mentioned.

[Paddington Bear]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

I don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of twitter commentators think, but I suspect a major tax hike will see a lot of young people emigrate to Australia

The article is just them saying they didn't have what young people today have when growing up: lattes, foreign holidays, phones, 0% interest rates etc and they had to work hard.

Which is fair enough - they didn't have those things. They did however have the biggest wealth creation trick ever in house prices and privatisation of everything though. So who is to say.

It's funny, all those posts are basically "our lives were terrible, so yours should be too".

It's a really strange attitude, and one that I don't find shared by most people that age I know (who often think life was pretty good when they were in their 20s). I see a lot of 'I got lucky and I'll help my kids however I can'. Suppose as ever the bitter minority are the most vocal and the ones who therefore get listened to.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

[Torquemada 1420]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

I don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of twitter commentators think, but I suspect a major tax hike will see a lot of young people emigrate to Australia

You reckon? IIRC, both Aus and NZ have pretty high entry requirements and so a load of whinging youngsters with Meejuuuh Study Degrees from Scumbag University are unlikely to be permitted work entry to Nigeria (assuming they could even speak good enough English), let alone ANZ.

[Torquemada 1420]

Re what is happening in Liverpool, it's probably just as well the Tories have been in power for twelve years. Otherwise we might not have been so well prepared for a pandemic.

We may have lost the circa hundred and thirty thousand lives due to austerity as per an article in the BMJ, but hey, at least the Government were fiscally at the top of their game, eh?

Even that chart is wrong. It's more like 110% of GDP currently.

[GogLais]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Not sure what you mean. I’d pay my sons’ mortgages or whatever for a few months if it came to it and I wouldn’t do the same for somebody else’s. Does that make me a villain?

[I like neeps]

[quote=GogLais post_id=228638 time=1661420622 user_id=973]
[quote="Rhubarb & Custard" post_id=228634 time=1661419711 user_id=277]
It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean. I’d pay my sons’ mortgages or whatever for a few months if it came to it and I wouldn’t do the same for somebody else’s. Does that make me a villain?
[/quote]

No.

However, the attitude R&C is saying is "all this asset inflation is earned (wrong) and good because I can provide for my family" is bad long term because it entrenches inequality. It's a very broken society if BOMA or BODG (bank of dead grandparents) is the leading mortgage provider.

[GogLais]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Not sure what you mean. I’d pay my sons’ mortgages or whatever for a few months if it came to it and I wouldn’t do the same for somebody else’s. Does that make me a villain?

No.

However, the attitude R&C is saying is "all this asset inflation is earned (wrong) and good because I can provide for my family" is bad long term because it entrenches inequality. It's a very broken society if BOMA or BODG (bank of dead grandparents) is the leading mortgage provider.

Thanks, I couldn’t read the article. I agree 100%.

[Paddington Bear]

Now look here young people, it's all your fault

I don’t think it’s as bad as a lot of twitter commentators think, but I suspect a major tax hike will see a lot of young people emigrate to Australia

You reckon? IIRC, both Aus and NZ have pretty high entry requirements and so a load of whinging youngsters with Meejuuuh Study Degrees from Scumbag University are unlikely to be permitted work entry to Nigeria (assuming they could even speak good enough English), let alone ANZ.

Anecdotes are not data but I haven't met a person who wanted to go to ANZ and was unable to. Granted most people I know are Russell Group grads

[_Os_]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Good observation. It's the cognitive dissonance that gets them through.

It's the same on the migration issue. Quite repulsive comments about immigrants, me saying "I'm an immigrant", then the reply "I didn't mean you". All with a totally straight face.

So a war against younger generations it is then, just not the young people they care about.

[_Os_]

Anecdotes are not data but I haven't met a person who wanted to go to ANZ and was unable to. Granted most people I know are Russell Group grads

The Australian points based immigration system has been talked up into something it isn't in the UK. The perception is that only brain surgeons can get in and it's a system which reduces immigration to almost nothing.

Reality: South African I know got fed up with the UK, lied on the forms that he was a decorator and plasterer and lives in Perth now. Another South African I know quite liked the UK but the hostile environment forced him out, he has no university education and lives in NZ now.

[GogLais]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Good observation. It's the cognitive dissonance that gets them through.

It's the same on the migration issue. Quite repulsive comments about immigrants, me saying "I'm an immigrant", then the reply "I didn't mean you". All with a totally straight face.

So a war against younger generations it is then, just not the young people they care about.

Anecdotal but anyway - I mix with a lot of people who are getting on a bit. Some and it’s very very few will say something unpleasant about the unemployed or immigrants but I don’t remember any such remark about younger people as a group. Let’s not believe everything we read.
Which you might say applies to what I’ve just posted of course.

[_Os_]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Good observation. It's the cognitive dissonance that gets them through.

It's the same on the migration issue. Quite repulsive comments about immigrants, me saying "I'm an immigrant", then the reply "I didn't mean you". All with a totally straight face.

So a war against younger generations it is then, just not the young people they care about.

Anecdotal but anyway - I mix with a lot of people who are getting on a bit. Some and it’s very very few will say something unpleasant about the unemployed or immigrants but I don’t remember any such remark about younger people as a group. Let’s not believe everything we read.
Which you might say applies to what I’ve just posted of course.

I posted what you did too, that this sentiment seems manufactured (the Telegraph is toxic). But there's something in what Rhubarb posted I hadn't considered, it may not be as clear cut as I thought. If you can create an "us v them", you can actually get people to go along with something they don't agree with when applied to anyone they care about, but nevertheless they still go with it. How often the "us v them" line is repeated seems to be a big factor.

[GogLais]

Good observation. It's the cognitive dissonance that gets them through.

It's the same on the migration issue. Quite repulsive comments about immigrants, me saying "I'm an immigrant", then the reply "I didn't mean you". All with a totally straight face.

So a war against younger generations it is then, just not the young people they care about.

Anecdotal but anyway - I mix with a lot of people who are getting on a bit. Some and it’s very very few will say something unpleasant about the unemployed or immigrants but I don’t remember any such remark about younger people as a group. Let’s not believe everything we read.
Which you might say applies to what I’ve just posted of course.

I posted what you did too, that this sentiment seems manufactured (the Telegraph is toxic). But there's something in what Rhubarb posted I hadn't considered, it may not be as clear cut as I thought. If you can create an "us v them", you can actually get people to go along with something they don't agree with when applied to anyone they care about, but nevertheless they still go with it. How often the "us v them" line is repeated seems to be a big factor.

Interesting point. If there is such a plan then maybe it’s worked where immigrants and “scroungers” are concerned but my perception is it’s a long long way from working with young people.

[Tichtheid]

Youngest is in the process of moving to London for first proper job after uni. She and three friends are trying to find a flat. So far they've been too late on enquiring about a place that had been listed that same day, another place they thought they had secured was lost when others offered to pay more and today they've had to bid £30 above the advertised weekly rent for the flat they are going for, two other sets of people offered first ten then twenty pounds more per week. They're still waiting to see if they have been successful in their bid.

I only became aware last week that the current advertised rent in London is the minimum and you now have to bid more.

It's a shite state of affairs, between them they will paying almost £3.5K per month towards someone else's mortgage.

[ia801310]

Another success for the Tories.

Energy companies now asking for £100 Billion to cap Energy costs for the UK, & avoid who knows what in terms of societal breakdown, & deaths from hypothermia, & frankly starvation, as the most vulnerable have to choose between essentials.

With that kind of money, they could have upgraded most of the house stock in the UK !

It also neatly shows why if there's any spare cash in the back of the sofa, you're better off spending it on weapons, & sending them to Ukraine, if it'll shortens the War ! An Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier, & 24 F35Bs cost less than £9 billion, so just the UKs additional energy costs for the next couple of years, would turn the Ukraine into a force that could beat up the Orc rabble worse than any red headed stepchild !

Even as a Tory I think that the time has come to renationalise the water and the energy companies. The market has failed.

[I like neeps]

Another success for the Tories.

Energy companies now asking for £100 Billion to cap Energy costs for the UK, & avoid who knows what in terms of societal breakdown, & deaths from hypothermia, & frankly starvation, as the most vulnerable have to choose between essentials.

With that kind of money, they could have upgraded most of the house stock in the UK !

It also neatly shows why if there's any spare cash in the back of the sofa, you're better off spending it on weapons, & sending them to Ukraine, if it'll shortens the War ! An Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier, & 24 F35Bs cost less than £9 billion, so just the UKs additional energy costs for the next couple of years, would turn the Ukraine into a force that could beat up the Orc rabble worse than any red headed stepchild !

Even as a Tory I think that the time has come to renationalise the water and the energy companies. The market has failed.

I'm kind of fine with the energy privatisation - yes companies are destroying the planet and yes they've created untold wealth for states actively hostile to the west and democracy but "the market" hasn't failed. We've just cut off a major supplier to try and stop a war. The market would surely suggest we don't do that?

Water is obviously a disaster.

[Tichtheid]

I'm kind of fine with the energy privatisation - yes companies are destroying the planet and yes they've created untold wealth for states actively hostile to the west and democracy but "the market" hasn't failed. We've just cut off a major supplier to try and stop a war. The market would surely suggest we don't do that?

Water is obviously a disaster.

The market, or marketisation of utilities has failed, some things are just not suitable for running that way and energy is one of them, defence, health provision, policing are others.

If I make a widget then a market is an efficient way of getting my widget sold, if it is no good or nobody wants it then the market will soon show that and public funds are not wasted in subsidising it, although to an extent they are, public funds educate the workers who make the widget, they heal them, they provide roads, security, legislation regarding copyright etc and they will put out your fire, at every step public funds underwrite private business.

A long term view of the energy sector would have seen nuclear power stations being built in the UK until the holy grail of full self-sufficiency via renewables is achievable.
However that is expensive and contrary to market values and that is why the market has no place in energy provision.

[SaintK]

Speaking on behalf of most of us

[_Os_]

Youngest is in the process of moving to London for first proper job after uni. She and three friends are trying to find a flat. So far they've been too late on enquiring about a place that had been listed that same day, another place they thought they had secured was lost when others offered to pay more and today they've had to bid £30 above the advertised weekly rent for the flat they are going for, two other sets of people offered first ten then twenty pounds more per week. They're still waiting to see if they have been successful in their bid.

I only became aware last week that the current advertised rent in London is the minimum and you now have to bid more.

It's a shite state of affairs, between them they will paying almost £3.5K per month towards someone else's mortgage.

As per the chat with Torq on this thread a few weeks back. It's now not such a sweet deal being a landlord and there's a lot more risk too. So landlords have sold up and there's now less houses to rent. There's a housing shortage where people want to live (London and anywhere commutable to London), less talked about there's also a shortage of houses to rent. So people now bid on a house to rent like they would when buying a house, there's bidding wars over renters as you describe. Landlords are also incentivised into HMOs because the yields are higher and the costs/risks are much the same.

If their landlord looks like he's going under next year when interest rates really start pumping (if he's on a HMO mortgage he's probably already paying around 4%-ish, probably just paying the interest and not the mortgage itself), if he hasn't fixed he'll first try to raise their rent and if they simply can't pay he'll evict them so he can sell. You can make a stab of what his margin is by looking up when he bought and the price he paid, guessing what the mortgage is based on that (likely the maximum LTV he could get, and maybe re-mortgaged since then depending on what his strategy was) and comparing it to £3,500. If he bought/re-mortgaged in the £400k-£500k ballpark it could all be a lot tighter than you think when letting agents fees (normally 10%)/tax (at least 20%)/maintenance is taken into account.

I can tell you just off the info you've given, that if the landlord is typical he's probably paying about £1k-£1.5k in mortgage fees per month on a London house (guessing mortgage £300k-£450k), £350 on letting agent fees, £630 on tax (agent takes their cut before the landlord receives the rent, so they only pay tax on the income they're getting). The risk to the landlord providing the service is bankruptcy and losing everything if they haven't incorporated (probably haven't), hopefully he fixed the mortgage.

[Biffer]

Energy companies now asking for £100 Billion to cap Energy costs for the UK, & avoid who knows what in terms of societal breakdown, & deaths from hypothermia, & frankly starvation, as the most vulnerable have to choose between essentials.

With that kind of money, they could have upgraded most of the house stock in the UK !

It also neatly shows why if there's any spare cash in the back of the sofa, you're better off spending it on weapons, & sending them to Ukraine, if it'll shortens the War ! An Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier, & 24 F35Bs cost less than £9 billion, so just the UKs additional energy costs for the next couple of years, would turn the Ukraine into a force that could beat up the Orc rabble worse than any red headed stepchild !

Even as a Tory I think that the time has come to renationalise the water and the energy companies. The market has failed.

I'm kind of fine with the energy privatisation - yes companies are destroying the planet and yes they've created untold wealth for states actively hostile to the west and democracy but "the market" hasn't failed. We've just cut off a major supplier to try and stop a war. The market would surely suggest we don't do that?

Water is obviously a disaster.

Well, fundamentally if you have a market where the exit of one supplier or consumer distorts the market, it’s by definition not a true free market and should be regulated. We do some of that but the mechanism in place to regulate it is not sufficient to protect the consumers from debilitating price swings. So further action is required to prevent disastrous impacts of the market failure.

Also the structure of electricity pricing being related to gas generation, and the fact there are open trans national markets has impacted all of us. Scotlands generation comes substantially from renewables and nuclear, so why have prices risen as much there when the cost of generation has changed very little? Similarly in France 90% of electricity is generated from non fossil fuel sources so being connected to a trans national market has damaged them.

[I like neeps]

Even as a Tory I think that the time has come to renationalise the water and the energy companies. The market has failed.

I'm kind of fine with the energy privatisation - yes companies are destroying the planet and yes they've created untold wealth for states actively hostile to the west and democracy but "the market" hasn't failed. We've just cut off a major supplier to try and stop a war. The market would surely suggest we don't do that?

Water is obviously a disaster.

Well, fundamentally if you have a market where the exit of one supplier or consumer distorts the market, it’s by definition not a true free market and should be regulated. We do some of that but the mechanism in place to regulate it is not sufficient to protect the consumers from debilitating price swings. So further action is required to prevent disastrous impacts of the market failure.

Also the structure of electricity pricing being related to gas generation, and the fact there are open trans national markets has impacted all of us. Scotlands generation comes substantially from renewables and nuclear, so why have prices risen as much there when the cost of generation has changed very little? Similarly in France 90% of electricity is generated from non fossil fuel sources so being connected to a trans national market has damaged them.

The price of renewables has risen because they're tied to the price of gas. It is fairly simple to change that and now there is an overwhelming reason to I am sure they will. It's an easy, quick win for the incoming govt.

Energy isn't a free market because of the cartel. But we'd be doing deals with them anyway. The UK will always need fossil fuels. Or Uranium, and again look at countries with uranium deposits.

[Biffer]

I'm kind of fine with the energy privatisation - yes companies are destroying the planet and yes they've created untold wealth for states actively hostile to the west and democracy but "the market" hasn't failed. We've just cut off a major supplier to try and stop a war. The market would surely suggest we don't do that?

Water is obviously a disaster.

Well, fundamentally if you have a market where the exit of one supplier or consumer distorts the market, it’s by definition not a true free market and should be regulated. We do some of that but the mechanism in place to regulate it is not sufficient to protect the consumers from debilitating price swings. So further action is required to prevent disastrous impacts of the market failure.

Also the structure of electricity pricing being related to gas generation, and the fact there are open trans national markets has impacted all of us. Scotlands generation comes substantially from renewables and nuclear, so why have prices risen as much there when the cost of generation has changed very little? Similarly in France 90% of electricity is generated from non fossil fuel sources so being connected to a trans national market has damaged them.

The price of renewables has risen because they're tied to the price of gas. It is fairly simple to change that and now there is an overwhelming reason to I am sure they will. It's an easy, quick win for the incoming govt.

Energy isn't a free market because of the cartel. But we'd be doing deals with them anyway. The UK will always need fossil fuels. Or Uranium, and again look at countries with uranium deposits.

Yeah, that’s the point I’m making. It’s not anything close to a free market, so regulation is essential to protect the consumer, and indeed to an extent the supplier. Those regs must be changed to decouple from gas.

[vball]

It's the I'll help 'my kids' which is so often telling.

Not sure what you mean. I’d pay my sons’ mortgages or whatever for a few months if it came to it and I wouldn’t do the same for somebody else’s. Does that make me a villain?

No.

However, the attitude R&C is saying is "all this asset inflation is earned (wrong) and good because I can provide for my family" is bad long term because it entrenches inequality. It's a very broken society if BOMA or BODG (bank of dead grandparents) is the leading mortgage provider.

When we got married, my folks bought us a fridge and my wife's mum bought us cutlery. When my folks died we got £8k and nothing from my wife's side. Now that my kids are starting to work and thinking about buying, I would give them what they need. I only got into Uni as a mature student at 33 (did not apply myself at school) and have as other see me, worked bloody hard and moved to where I could get work. We had 15% interest on our mortgage at times. It is awful for loads of people and if helping my kids is being selfish, then that is what I am.

The govt needs to do something more than it is doing.

[fishfoodie]

When we got married, my folks bought us a fridge and my wife's mum bought us cutlery. When my folks died we got £8k and nothing from my wife's side. Now that my kids are starting to work and thinking about buying, I would give them what they need. I only got into Uni as a mature student at 33 (did not apply myself at school) and have as other see me, worked bloody hard and moved to where I could get work. We had 15% interest on our mortgage at times. It is awful for loads of people and if helping my kids is being selfish, then that is what I am.

It's not that your being selfish, or doing anything unnatural ....

The govt needs to do something more than it is doing.

it's just that this is what you, as a member of the group the Tories are continually seducing with rising house prices, need to be telling the bastards !

You have the ability to help out your children, but there are millions of households who can't, & when the market goes pop; your ability to help kids will disappear, & if it goes pop after you've helped them, they'll be in negative equity,, & you'll have lost most, if not all the equity you'd built up while the bubble inflated.

The Politicians need to keep to house building targets they keep on setting, & then failing on, because this way, the bubble will deflate, instead of exploding, & people get singed, not burned, & everyone benefits.

[Tichtheid]

I know it's terribly old fashioned, but I'd like to see a massive house building project in the UK, houses that would be publicly owned and for which you payed rent at an affordable level. Those houses would be maintained by publicly employed trades people who did a good job for a decent wage and the utilities would be provided by state-owned suppliers whose goal was just that, to provide the best service possible without the garrote of the profit margin to be considered.

In short we pay into the common good for things that we all need, and the market supplies things that we choose.

It really wasn't that broken a model, it needed to be upgraded, not obliterated.