Stop voting for fucking Tories

[robmatic]

Was that a quick round of white middle aged straight men saying that the opinions of white middle aged straight men are important?

Well I never.

I think you might be misgendering some participants in this conversation, or just discounting the views of a woman.

I'll admit to being a distressingly white bloke but I do listen to my Muslim wife sometimes, like on this issue.

[Tichtheid]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

[dpedin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62970803

Government decide against publishing economic forecasts with their mini budget. Stupid as it'll leak but still shows it's not good!

This is very worrying but not surprising! They are a bunch of nutters on a zealous mission and facts are just an inconvenient truth. We are in real trouble now! ....

[fishfoodie]

Well the good news is that Dizzy Lizzy is prepared to be unpopular, & murder those 101 adorable dalmatians, to turn them into a coat .... as long as it gets her picture on the Vogue cover, because that's what's really important in the grand scheme of things .....

[Tichtheid]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

[SaintK]

How very apt. The Secretary of State for Business recording a video about business support in front of a closed down, boarded up business

[robmatic]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

[Jockaline]

Was that a quick round of white middle aged straight men saying that the opinions of white middle aged straight men are important?

Well I never.

I'm not a man, but welcome the views of white middle aged straight men - not sure what being white, having experience of life and not being gay has to do with anything. Men are key to the welfare of women, and resolving women concerns / issues as they are premodernity the cause of the them, 'not all men' / 'nothing to do with me' doesn't cut it I'm afraid. Men are fathers of daughters, brothers of sisters, sons of mothers etc, this has everything to do with you to.

[Jockaline]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Trans people already have the same rights as every other human being. Human rights are universal. What is questionable is specific rights that undermine others specific rights to feel save and to compete on a level playing field.

[Jockaline]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

[JM2K6]

All this trans talk has made me wonder where JMK has been, anyone know if he is OK?

Very busy at the mo, and I don't see any point in getting involved in these conversations any more when they're just people staking out their positions and reinforcing the defences (I would largely be doing the same). Why would I expend precious energy on a topic I do care about but with zero hope of it being anything other than people yelling at each other at varying volume? God knows I've been guilty of that enough times.

Andy "actual fascist" Ngo being quoted to start this all off with an eye opener mind you, but that's another thing entirely

[I like neeps]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

[C69]

Tbh what are Starmer's views on Social and Cultural issues that he/she disagrees with?

[Slick]

All this trans talk has made me wonder where JMK has been, anyone know if he is OK?

Very busy at the mo, and I don't see any point in getting involved in these conversations any more when they're just people staking out their positions and reinforcing the defences (I would largely be doing the same). Why would I expend precious energy on a topic I do care about but with zero hope of it being anything other than people yelling at each other at varying volume? God knows I've been guilty of that enough times.

Andy "actual fascist" Ngo being quoted to start this all off with an eye opener mind you, but that's another thing entirely

Good to see you

[Tichtheid]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

[ASMO]

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

I am afraid i take all of these numbers with a huge pinch of salt, the sample is so small to be meaningless and they do not publish what they deem to be a sexual assault. I frankly do not believe that a quarter of all women in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted. That does not take anything away from those that have, it is a terrible thing for them to have to deal with, but these numbers are frankly bollocks and serve only to demonise men, and not the men who commit these.

[ia801310]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

[ia801310]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

[Slick]

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

I am afraid i take all of these numbers with a huge pinch of salt, the sample is so small to be meaningless and they do not publish what they deem to be a sexual assault. I frankly do not believe that a quarter of all women in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted. That does not take anything away from those that have, it is a terrible thing for them to have to deal with, but these numbers are frankly bollocks and serve only to demonise men, and not the men who commit these.

Well I completely believe it. I remember when the #metoo thing started and I was amazed at the number of women I know well, including my wife and sisters, who had stories of sexual assault. Some of it might be "low level" but it all counts. Just sit on a train or bus at night FFS and see the shit that women have to put up with. There might be other stuff I disagree with Tichtheid on in this conversation but that is definitely not one.

[Line6 HXFX]

Without a massive influx of immigration the UK cannot grow. They cannot fill the jobs we have now.

Grow where?
The push for growth is just bullshit.

Look Truss doesn't care about the next election, she knows she is going to lose by a landslide, so it is fire sale time. Give her doners everything they want, and lots of stuff they didn't 't even ask for so that when the tories are shortly in opposition they will donate again to the tory party and support them, not Labour.

None of these policies makes sense unless viewed from this perspective.

[Slick]

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

I'm not defending Stonewall, but if you think everything is sweet and rosy for gay people now you really need to get out from under your rock.

[ia801310]

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK





I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

I'm not defending Stonewall, but if you think everything is sweet and rosy for gay people now you really need to get out from under your rock.

From a legal point of view Stonewall's job is done. Gay rights do still need advocacy but at such a level that would justify Stonewall's current business model.

They only started on Trans Rights in 2015

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/02/16/s ... ights-too/

[Calculon]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

[ia801310]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

[I like neeps]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

[ia801310]

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

[Jockaline]

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.
[/quote]

You really think illegal immigrants are going to turn up in polling stations in numbers, and if they do it will make any significant impact on results. Your are being played. This is just a dog whistle scenario to force through voter id, which is far more likely to be abused, and have an impact on results than illegal immigrants ever will.

[Calculon]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

I'm not reading all your links but the bit you quote says UK residents, so not anyone who lives there or who arrived in the UK a couple of days before the general election.

Just to be clear this is the requirements before you are allowed to apply for residency:

Below is a list showing the length of time you must spend in the UK on various visas to be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR):

Marriage or unmarried partner to UK citizen: 2 years
Lawful stay on any basis (long stay): 10 years
Unlawful stay: 14 years
Tier 1 and Tier 2 work permit: 5 years
Investor, sportsperson, business owner, arts: 5 years
Ancestry: 5 years

[Raggs]

Yeah, was going to say, legally the term Resident, carries a lot with it. It's not simply a case of currently being in the UK.

[robmatic]

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

I'm not reading all your links but the bit you quote says UK residents, so not anyone who lives there or who arrived in the UK a couple of days before the general election.

Just to be clear this is the requirements before you are allowed to apply for residency:

Below is a list showing the length of time you must spend in the UK on various visas to be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR):

Marriage or unmarried partner to UK citizen: 2 years
Lawful stay on any basis (long stay): 10 years
Unlawful stay: 14 years
Tier 1 and Tier 2 work permit: 5 years
Investor, sportsperson, business owner, arts: 5 years
Ancestry: 5 years

ILR is permanent residence, you are also resident during the qualifying periods you mention there. You are correct that it's not people arriving by boat etc. or on tourist visas.

I think the major implication of extending the vote to all UK residents is that it also ensures that the 5 million EU citizens who have settled status in the UK following Brexit have the right to vote in UK parliamentary elections.

[Insane_Homer]

[Calculon]

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

I'm not reading all your links but the bit you quote says UK residents, so not anyone who lives there or who arrived in the UK a couple of days before the general election.

Just to be clear this is the requirements before you are allowed to apply for residency:

Below is a list showing the length of time you must spend in the UK on various visas to be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR):

Marriage or unmarried partner to UK citizen: 2 years
Lawful stay on any basis (long stay): 10 years
Unlawful stay: 14 years
Tier 1 and Tier 2 work permit: 5 years
Investor, sportsperson, business owner, arts: 5 years
Ancestry: 5 years

ILR is permanent residence, you are also resident during the qualifying periods you mention there. You are correct that it's not people arriving by boat etc. or on tourist visas.

I think the major implication of extending the vote to all UK residents is that it also ensures that the 5 million EU citizens who have settled status in the UK following Brexit have the right to vote in UK parliamentary elections.

Settled status’, ‘indefinite leave to remain’ and ‘permanent residence are very similar. From the gov.uk site

Being "settled" in the UK is defined in an immigration context and means a person who has indefinite leave to enter or remain, meaning they are free from any restriction on the period for which they remain in the UK, or is an Irish national in the UK who is treated as a settled person by virtue of the Ireland Act 194

Also this

Non-UK nationals who are subject to immigration control (the vast majority) cannot meet the ordinary residence test if they do not have indefinite leave to remain in the UK

So to be an "ordinary resident" you have to ILR

[robmatic]

Settled status’, ‘indefinite leave to remain’ and ‘permanent residence are very similar. From the gov.uk site

Being "settled" in the UK is defined in an immigration context and means a person who has indefinite leave to enter or remain, meaning they are free from any restriction on the period for which they remain in the UK, or is an Irish national in the UK who is treated as a settled person by virtue of the Ireland Act 194

Also this

Non-UK nationals who are subject to immigration control (the vast majority) cannot meet the ordinary residence test if they do not have indefinite leave to remain in the UK

So to be an "ordinary resident" you have to ILR

"Ordinary residence" is a specific term for entitlement to use of NHS services.

You get a biometric residence permit for the UK if you get a visa for more than 6 months.

[I like neeps]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

Thank you for sending me a manifesto that was for an election they lost and not their current policy. And that those arriving on the beaches are not migrants so not covered by tbis. Other than that, 10/10 logic and reasoning.

[Calculon]

"Ordinary residence" is a specific term for entitlement to use of NHS services.

You get a biometric residence permit for the UK if you get a visa for more than 6 months.

I see.

So getting back to the original point it seems Labour wanted to give other nationalities the same voting rights as those enjoyed by citizens of Commonwealth countries, Zimbabwe, Fiji and Ireland when it came to UK elections.

[Camroc2]

Re Trusses interview with Beth Rigby of Sky News last night.

At one point she appeared to say that she didn't believe in progressive taxation, nor in social wealth redistribution. Now, I know she appeared flustered at the time, but that path leads to Brazil like gated "ghettos" for the wealthy, favellas for the poor, and endemic violence everywhere.

I'm not sure she's really thought through the actual economic consequences of the policies she says she's going to follow.

The problem for us (Irish that is), is that due to sheer proximity, we'll get caught in some of the pooh when Truss drives the UK economy off the rails.

[SaintK]

Re Trusses interview with Beth Rigby of Sky News last night.

At one point she appeared to say that she didn't believe in progressive taxation, nor in social wealth redistribution. Now, I know she appeared flustered at the time, but that path leads to Brazil like gated "ghettos" for the wealthy, favellas for the poor, and endemic violence everywhere.

I'm not sure she's really thought through the actual economic consequences of the policies she says she's going to follow.

The problem for us (Irish that is), is that due to sheer proximity, we'll get caught in some of the pooh when Truss drives the UK economy off the rails.

I'm not sure she's capable of thinking through anything!!!

[ia801310]

"Ordinary residence" is a specific term for entitlement to use of NHS services.

You get a biometric residence permit for the UK if you get a visa for more than 6 months.

I see.

So getting back to the original point it seems Labour wanted to give other nationalities the same voting rights as those enjoyed by citizens of Commonwealth countries, Zimbabwe, Fiji and Ireland when it came to UK elections.

I don;t agree with Commonwealth nations being able to vote in UK general elections, only UK citizens should be able to do that.

[ia801310]

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

Thank you for sending me a manifesto that was for an election they lost and not their current policy. And that those arriving on the beaches are not migrants so not covered by tbis. Other than that, 10/10 logic and reasoning.

Residence could mean anything and it was in their last manifesto and was voted on by the Labour NEC .

Labour believe in open borders as Nadia Whittome has the guts to say. The rest of them are too spineless to admit it, they just pay lip serve to border controls whilst opposing every single policy that would reduce immigration and asylum. I also don't care what any convention says, if you are coming from France you are an economic migrant and I would be willing to bet folding money that the majority of the British electorate agrees.

We need to leave the ECHR pronto, I hope that that will be in the next manifesto. It says a lot about the EU that thousands and thousands of people are prepared to risk their lives to flee it in small boats to come to the racist hell-hole that is the UK.

[I like neeps]

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

Thank you for sending me a manifesto that was for an election they lost and not their current policy. And that those arriving on the beaches are not migrants so not covered by tbis. Other than that, 10/10 logic and reasoning.

Residence could mean anything and it was in their last manifesto and was voted on by the Labour NEC .

Labour believe in open borders as Nadia Whittome has the guts to say. The rest of them are too spineless to admit it, they just pay lip serve to border controls whilst opposing every single policy that would reduce immigration and asylum. I also don't care what any convention says, if you are coming from France you are an economic migrant and I would be willing to bet folding money that the majority of the British electorate agrees.

We need to leave the ECHR pronto, I hope that that will be in the next manifesto. It says a lot about the EU that thousands and thousands of people are prepared to risk their lives to flee it in small boats to come to the racist hell-hole that is the UK.

I'm starting to think you're an obvious troll. Whittome is on the left of the party that labour and currently trying to get rid of and the numbers of migrants in the EU far exceeds the number who make the UK.