Stop voting for fucking Tories

[I like neeps]

The Tories have found another magic money tree. What a relief!

[ia801310]

Thank you for sending me a manifesto that was for an election they lost and not their current policy. And that those arriving on the beaches are not migrants so not covered by tbis. Other than that, 10/10 logic and reasoning.

Residence could mean anything and it was in their last manifesto and was voted on by the Labour NEC .

Labour believe in open borders as Nadia Whittome has the guts to say. The rest of them are too spineless to admit it, they just pay lip serve to border controls whilst opposing every single policy that would reduce immigration and asylum. I also don't care what any convention says, if you are coming from France you are an economic migrant and I would be willing to bet folding money that the majority of the British electorate agrees.

We need to leave the ECHR pronto, I hope that that will be in the next manifesto. It says a lot about the EU that thousands and thousands of people are prepared to risk their lives to flee it in small boats to come to the racist hell-hole that is the UK.

I'm starting to think you're an obvious troll. Whittome is on the left of the party that labour and currently trying to get rid of and the numbers of migrants in the EU far exceeds the number who make the UK.

No she is not. This is a party that elected Jeremy Corbyn as it's leader, twice, and would do so again if they had the chance. She is far more representative of the Labour party membership than Starmer is.

A kinder gentler politics: Labour MP's staffer shouting at a baby.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... riend.html

[fishfoodie]

I'm starting to think you're an obvious troll. Whittome is on the left of the party that labour and currently trying to get rid of and the numbers of migrants in the EU far exceeds the number who make the UK.

Have a look at his alter ego on the other place, & ask yourself why you even engage with him ?

[ASMO]

Its becoming clearer to me that the Tories are resigned to losing the next election and are planning as much damage to the economy as possible before its handed over to Labour. This will inevitably lead to cuts and tax rises which the Tories will jump on with glee and use it as the weapon to get them re-elected.

[Hal Jordan]

Its becoming clearer to me that the Tories are resigned to losing the next election and are planning as much damage to the economy as possible before its handed over to Labour. This will inevitably lead to cuts and tax rises which the Tories will jump on with glee and use it as the weapon to get them re-elected.

And continuing to loot the public purse for the chums, to ensure jobs if they lose their seats.

[Tichtheid]

Majority of UK public agree with liberal views on race and sexual identity – annual poll



From a survey published in the Grauniad today

A majority of the public agree with so-called “woke” positions on issues such as racial equality, immigration and sexual identity, according to the latest annual poll of British social attitudes, in the latest sign that once-marginal liberal views are increasingly mainstream.

Although such issues are used by Tory politicians and the media to fuel “culture wars” and whip up antipathy towards a supposed politically correct cultural elite, the survey shows the balance of public opinion in Britain has shifted in favour of more inclusive attitudes over the past 20 years.

...and...

While pushing a culture war agenda may successfully enthuse core Tory voters – and potentially rekindle post-Brexit electoral divisions between remainers and leavers – that audience appears to be diminishing, and there is no guarantee that the anti-woke effect will be powerful enough to win an election, the survey concludes.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... nnual-poll

[SaintK]

I'm starting to think you're an obvious troll. Whittome is on the left of the party that labour and currently trying to get rid of and the numbers of migrants in the EU far exceeds the number who make the UK.

Have a look at his alter ego on the other place, & ask yourself why you even engage with him ?

Which loon is he there?

[Tichtheid]

Sounds like Bimbo to me. The 'Kinder gentler' shite on repeat.

That was my assumption, too.

[_Os_]

So getting back to the original point it seems Labour wanted to give other nationalities the same voting rights as those enjoyed by citizens of Commonwealth countries, Zimbabwe, Fiji and Ireland when it came to UK elections.

That is correct. In a GE Commonwealth citizens who are resident (visa without restriction) can vote and stand as candidates, this applies to Irish citizens too. Elections below a GE have a mix of rules, but it's always Commonwealth and Irish citizens being allowed to vote, and EU citizens who are resident or anyone resident being allowed to vote. The Labour proposal would've simply brought GEs into line with all the other elections.

There's two ways of structuring nationality law, by blood (ancestry connections), or by soil (residence in the territory). The UK system falls strongly on the side of soil, people acquire more rights the longer they're in the UK. The rights that come from ancestry in the UK system are very minimal compared to systems which favours blood (eg UK nationality cannot be extended down generations indefinitely if those generations aren't born in the UK). So the voting rules do actually reflect the nationality rules, and the aberration is the reduced rights EU nationals have.

The heart of the hostile environment and the Windrush scandal, is an idea a large amount of people have that their ancestry should confer rights those with long residency shouldn't have. Not how the UK system works and not how the society has therefore developed. Which is why it's always a shit show when attempts are made to change the system towards something it isn't, if voting rights were removed from people I could easily see some vulnerable people with 50+ years residency in the UK being turned away by their MP.

Reminds me of years ago Henry telling me to get off a thread about "our election", he didn't know the rules. Apparently I couldn't comment on a thread, but could vote and stand as a candidate in the election the thread was about.

[SaintK]

Sounds like Bimbo to me. The 'Kinder gentler' shite on repeat.

That was my assumption, too.

Nah, not terse or aggressive enough and not enough typos!
Not enough time in the day for to be posting on two rugby forums

[_Os_]

It's a general UK politics thread, there's stuff on the first page about the FPTP electoral system. Starmer's effectiveness or otherwise pops up now and again.

Nope, its a tory scum thread. I should know, I started it.

The intention and the reality diverged on page 1.

[I like neeps]

Residence could mean anything and it was in their last manifesto and was voted on by the Labour NEC .

Labour believe in open borders as Nadia Whittome has the guts to say. The rest of them are too spineless to admit it, they just pay lip serve to border controls whilst opposing every single policy that would reduce immigration and asylum. I also don't care what any convention says, if you are coming from France you are an economic migrant and I would be willing to bet folding money that the majority of the British electorate agrees.

We need to leave the ECHR pronto, I hope that that will be in the next manifesto. It says a lot about the EU that thousands and thousands of people are prepared to risk their lives to flee it in small boats to come to the racist hell-hole that is the UK.

I'm starting to think you're an obvious troll. Whittome is on the left of the party that labour and currently trying to get rid of and the numbers of migrants in the EU far exceeds the number who make the UK.

No she is not. This is a party that elected Jeremy Corbyn as it's leader, twice, and would do so again if they had the chance. She is far more representative of the Labour party membership than Starmer is.

A kinder gentler politics: Labour MP's staffer shouting at a baby.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... riend.html

The kinder gentler thing was about people not dying due to austerity fwiw.

[ia801310]

So getting back to the original point it seems Labour wanted to give other nationalities the same voting rights as those enjoyed by citizens of Commonwealth countries, Zimbabwe, Fiji and Ireland when it came to UK elections.

That is correct. In a GE Commonwealth citizens who are resident (visa without restriction) can vote and stand as candidates, this applies to Irish citizens too. Elections below a GE have a mix of rules, but it's always Commonwealth and Irish citizens being allowed to vote, and EU citizens who are resident or anyone resident being allowed to vote. The Labour proposal would've simply brought GEs into line with all the other elections.

There's two ways of structuring nationality law, by blood (ancestry connections), or by soil (residence in the territory). The UK system falls strongly on the side of soil, people acquire more rights the longer they're in the UK. The rights that come from ancestry in the UK system are very minimal compared to systems which favours blood (eg UK nationality cannot be extended down generations indefinitely if those generations aren't born in the UK). So the voting rules do actually reflect the nationality rules, and the aberration is the reduced rights EU nationals have.

The heart of the hostile environment and the Windrush scandal, is an idea a large amount of people have that their ancestry should confer rights those with long residency shouldn't have. Not how the UK system works and not how the society has therefore developed. Which is why it's always a shit show when attempts are made to change the system towards something it isn't, if voting rights were removed from people I could easily see some vulnerable people with 50+ years residency in the UK being turned away by their MP.

Reminds me of years ago Henry telling me to get off a thread about "our election", he didn't know the rules. Apparently I couldn't comment on a thread, but could vote and stand as a candidate in the election the thread was about.

Commonwealth and Irish, Cypriot and Maltese citizens can vote. It has nothing to do with nationality law. It is a hangover from empire. I would scrap it and say you have to be a UK or Irish citizen to vote.

[_Os_]

Commonwealth and Irish, Cypriot and Maltese citizens can vote. It has nothing to do with nationality law. It is a hangover from empire. I would scrap it and say you have to be a UK or Irish citizen to vote.

It has nothing to do with nationality law, other than the current rules directly referring to the British Nationality Act 1981 (Commonwealth citizens are legally defined within British nationality law), and you wanting to make it solely about nationality.

The problem with a lot of English people is that they're clueless about how their own country works. This shit isn't like changing a McDonalds menu, if you take rights away from people it generally ends badly and often in unforeseen ways.

[lemonhead]

Sounds like Bimbo to me. The 'Kinder gentler' shite on repeat.

That was my assumption, too.

Nah, not terse or aggressive enough and not enough typos!
Not enough time in the day for to be posting on two rugby forums

It's Mdaclarke lads.

[C69]

She needs to read the riot act to the Civil Service Blob and put the ECHR back in its box.

I may be wrong but I think he is that mdaclarke chap that I remember from PR.
UKIPPER/BNP Brexiter type antiimmigration South African in England.

Called it a while ago. He may not be the brightest and a bigot and a very reactionary abusive individual with vile views but at least he give a different opinion.

[JM2K6]

That was my assumption, too.

Nah, not terse or aggressive enough and not enough typos!
Not enough time in the day for to be posting on two rugby forums

It's Mdaclarke lads.

Yeah, he's always been like this. An absolute lunatic with absolute lunatic opinions. I don't want to be seen as shouting down "opposing viewpoints" but there's a difference between disagreeing with someone in good faith and arguing with someone in the bimbo/mick/dozy sphere.

[robmatic]

So getting back to the original point it seems Labour wanted to give other nationalities the same voting rights as those enjoyed by citizens of Commonwealth countries, Zimbabwe, Fiji and Ireland when it came to UK elections.

That is correct. In a GE Commonwealth citizens who are resident (visa without restriction) can vote and stand as candidates, this applies to Irish citizens too. Elections below a GE have a mix of rules, but it's always Commonwealth and Irish citizens being allowed to vote, and EU citizens who are resident or anyone resident being allowed to vote. The Labour proposal would've simply brought GEs into line with all the other elections.

There's two ways of structuring nationality law, by blood (ancestry connections), or by soil (residence in the territory). The UK system falls strongly on the side of soil, people acquire more rights the longer they're in the UK. The rights that come from ancestry in the UK system are very minimal compared to systems which favours blood (eg UK nationality cannot be extended down generations indefinitely if those generations aren't born in the UK). So the voting rules do actually reflect the nationality rules, and the aberration is the reduced rights EU nationals have.

The heart of the hostile environment and the Windrush scandal, is an idea a large amount of people have that their ancestry should confer rights those with long residency shouldn't have. Not how the UK system works and not how the society has therefore developed. Which is why it's always a shit show when attempts are made to change the system towards something it isn't, if voting rights were removed from people I could easily see some vulnerable people with 50+ years residency in the UK being turned away by their MP.

Reminds me of years ago Henry telling me to get off a thread about "our election", he didn't know the rules. Apparently I couldn't comment on a thread, but could vote and stand as a candidate in the election the thread was about.

This is one of the reasons why the UK is a relatively attractive destination for immigrants, despite the Home Office dicking around with the hostile environment policy. I used to work for a consultancy that assisted Turks with getting residency in the UK and one of the big selling points is that once you get a visa - and you can definitely massage the application and the renewal process - you get ILR and then citizenship reasonably straightforwardly after 6 years or so of residence.

You can contrast this with Germany which is an attractive place to go work but they definitely do not like giving citizenship out.

[sockwithaticket]

Its becoming clearer to me that the Tories are resigned to losing the next election and are planning as much damage to the economy as possible before its handed over to Labour. This will inevitably lead to cuts and tax rises which the Tories will jump on with glee and use it as the weapon to get them re-elected.

I think there's definitely a faction who want Truss and her cohort of psychopaths to do all the truly nasty stuff to fully fuck the economy into a position where it only benefits Tory donors/pals and then have Boris come riding in on his white charger to 'rescue' us from the nasty woman everyone hates. He's still surprisingly popular within the party, see the attempts to write him into the leadership challenge and those helping him not really resign until the jig was clearly up. Those loons may have underestimated how much he's damaged his reputation in the eyes of the public, even among Tory voters.

Realists in the party will likely be thinking the way you've stated. Fuck everything so thoroughly and so deeply in favour of the financiers, landlords and other Tory stereotypes that Labour couldn't possibly hope to turn things around in a single term, then hammer them for it via the right wing press and bank on the electorate's famously short memory.

[ia801310]

Nah, not terse or aggressive enough and not enough typos!
Not enough time in the day for to be posting on two rugby forums

It's Mdaclarke lads.

Yeah, he's always been like this. An absolute lunatic with absolute lunatic opinions. I don't want to be seen as shouting down "opposing viewpoints" but there's a difference between disagreeing with someone in good faith and arguing with someone in the bimbo/mick/dozy sphere.

Fair enough, I will leave you to your echo chamber.

You guys think that because you are on the side of the angels anybody who disagrees with you is a target for abuse, and you wonder why Labour keep losing? Tony Blair realised that you only win elections by persuading the other side to vote for you. You guys have no interest in doing that, you just want to abuse anybody who disagrees with you. A kinder gentler politics.

If you want to know why Labour keeping losing and why people won't stop voting for F88king Tories. Look in the mirror, you will see the answer staring back at you.

Have fun in your sewer.

[I like neeps]

Kwasi Kwarteng is changing benefit rules to get more people into work. Noting that too many over-50s are out of full time employment after covid. I've a solution for that Mr Kwarteng - burst the housing bubble which has meant they've built up so much wealth working is financially not as appealing as landlordism.

[SaintK]

It's Mdaclarke lads.

Yeah, he's always been like this. An absolute lunatic with absolute lunatic opinions. I don't want to be seen as shouting down "opposing viewpoints" but there's a difference between disagreeing with someone in good faith and arguing with someone in the bimbo/mick/dozy sphere.

Fair enough, I will leave you to your echo chamber.

You guys think that because you are on the side of the angels anybody who disagrees with you is a target for abuse, and you wonder why Labour keep losing? Tony Blair realised that you only win elections by persuading the other side to vote for you. You guys have no interest in doing that, you just want to abuse anybody who disagrees with you. A kinder gentler politics.

If you want to know why Labour keeping losing and why people won't stop voting for F88king Tories. Look in the mirror, you will see the answer staring back at you.

Have fun in your sewer.

Never voted Labour in my life. Though I may just change my habit of a lifetime just to help rid us of this awful right wing cabal that currently rule us.
I haven't noticed anyone abuse you and there is no need to leave.
As for sewer, have you not noticed what your party of choice have been dragging us through for the last umpteen years?

[SaintK]

The Secretary of State for the 18th Century has got off to a mixed start in his new recently elevated position!!!!!

Jacob Rees-Mogg faced repeated criticism from Tory MPs in the Commons over fracking, particularly over what was meant by his claim that drilling would only go ahead with approval from local communities. Some MPs wanted an assurance that residents would get to vote on whether projects should go ahead. But Rees-Mogg refused to promise that.

And those middle class protesters against fracking in leafy Surrey, Dorset and Hampshire were funded by Putin

[sockwithaticket]

When the right accuse their opposition of something it's usually projection.

Whatever happened to the Russia report?

[petej]

The Secretary of State for the 18th Century has got off to a mixed start in his new recently elevated position!!!!!

Jacob Rees-Mogg faced repeated criticism from Tory MPs in the Commons over fracking, particularly over what was meant by his claim that drilling would only go ahead with approval from local communities. Some MPs wanted an assurance that residents would get to vote on whether projects should go ahead. But Rees-Mogg refused to promise that.

And those middle class protesters against fracking in leafy Surrey, Dorset and Hampshire were funded by Putin

Nothing too low from the section of the tory party who took money from russian oligarchs and promoted a kgb agents spawn to the house of lords while kicking out a descendent of Winston Churchill from the party.

[Biffer]

Yeah, he's always been like this. An absolute lunatic with absolute lunatic opinions. I don't want to be seen as shouting down "opposing viewpoints" but there's a difference between disagreeing with someone in good faith and arguing with someone in the bimbo/mick/dozy sphere.

Fair enough, I will leave you to your echo chamber.

You guys think that because you are on the side of the angels anybody who disagrees with you is a target for abuse, and you wonder why Labour keep losing? Tony Blair realised that you only win elections by persuading the other side to vote for you. You guys have no interest in doing that, you just want to abuse anybody who disagrees with you. A kinder gentler politics.

If you want to know why Labour keeping losing and why people won't stop voting for F88king Tories. Look in the mirror, you will see the answer staring back at you.

Have fun in your sewer.

Never voted Labour in my life. Though I may just change my habit of a lifetime just to help rid us of this awful right wing cabal that currently rule us.
I haven't noticed anyone abuse you and there is no need to leave.
As for sewer, have you not noticed what your party of choice have been dragging us through for the last umpteen years?

Same here - think I may have voted Labour once in a council election.

Strange how guys like him think that someone disagreeing with them is abuse.

[tabascoboy]

Same here - think I may have voted Labour once in a council election.

And me but in an MEP election and only to kick out the incumbent Tory. NGL though did vote Green in the locals - to get rid of the incumbent Tories!

[Mahoney]

Fair enough, I will leave you to your echo chamber.

You guys think that because you are on the side of the angels anybody who disagrees with you is a target for abuse, and you wonder why Labour keep losing? Tony Blair realised that you only win elections by persuading the other side to vote for you. You guys have no interest in doing that, you just want to abuse anybody who disagrees with you. A kinder gentler politics.

If you want to know why Labour keeping losing and why people won't stop voting for F88king Tories. Look in the mirror, you will see the answer staring back at you.

Have fun in your sewer.

Strange how guys like him think that someone disagreeing with them is abuse.

I mean, he was replying to JM2K6 calling him "An absolute lunatic with absolute lunatic opinions. " That's a bit stronger that disagreeing with him.

[JM2K6]

Yes, that's abuse. I also couldn't give a shit whether he thinks it's abuse or not; anyone who unironically shares Andy Ngo is deeply suspect, and if mdaclarke is representative of the regulary Tory voter then this country is in a much worse state than I realised. But he's not - he's just a fringe weirdo who'd be gobbling down Q-Anon shit if he lived in the USA.

[Slick]

Yes, that's abuse. I also couldn't give a shit whether he thinks it's abuse or not; anyone who unironically shares Andy Ngo is deeply suspect, and if mdaclarke is representative of the regulary Tory voter then this country is in a much worse state than I realised. But he's not - he's just a fringe weirdo who'd be gobbling down Q-Anon shit if he lived in the USA.

You do keep proving him right though

[sockwithaticket]

We're back to the tolerance paradox.

I'm with JMK. There are some people whose views mean you just can't have a discussion. I remember back in the Obama days seeing a US politician say of a woman holding a banner with Obama sporting a Hitler 'stache imposed over a swastika that talking to people like her was akin to talking with a table.

A Tory supporter who wants to go over whether cutting or raising taxes will actually stimulate the economy is one thing. Wilfully misinterpreting Labour policy to mean they'd give a vote to anyone who can step on a UK beach is another entirely.

[Insane_Homer]

[Calculon]

We're back to the tolerance paradox.

I'm with JMK. There are some people whose views mean you just can't have a discussion. I remember back in the Obama days seeing a US politician say of a woman holding a banner with Obama sporting a Hitler 'stache imposed over a swastika that talking to people like her was akin to talking with a table.

A Tory supporter who wants to go over whether cutting or raising taxes will actually stimulate the economy is one thing. Wilfully misinterpreting Labour policy to mean they'd give a vote to anyone who can step on a UK beach is another entirely.

If this is his m.o. then he is welcome to fuck off, he's only detracting from the discussion.

[sockwithaticket]

[Insane_Homer]

Here's to cheering another massive Tory u-turn.

[Insane_Homer]

[petej]

Bojo rehashing an article from 2015?

[Ovals]

Your mortgage rate is going up again - but don't worry , the cap on Banker's Bonus is being lifted !

[JM2K6]

Yes, that's abuse. I also couldn't give a shit whether he thinks it's abuse or not; anyone who unironically shares Andy Ngo is deeply suspect, and if mdaclarke is representative of the regulary Tory voter then this country is in a much worse state than I realised. But he's not - he's just a fringe weirdo who'd be gobbling down Q-Anon shit if he lived in the USA.

You do keep proving him right though

Not really? Why is it okay for him to signal boost extremists and say shit that should turn off anyone who isn't alt-right or far-right, but as soon as someone gives him grief "it's the reason why people don't vote Labour"? He's not a serious poster. He's not getting abuse because he's not Labour. He's getting abuse, from me, because he constantly posts disingenuous shite, some of it sourced from some of the worst parts of the internet. If nothing else, his stance on immigration is enough for me to thoroughly dislike him, even if I hadn't read any of his other posts. It's just bad faith arguments all the way down - and if pushing back at that is why Labour loses elections, then Labour are fucked for eternity.

And to be fair, I was being relatively polite. And I don't think that me calling someone on a niche rugby forum a lunatic after having read their posts for years is going to change anyone's minds on who they're going to vote for.

[dpedin]

Well after todays shitshow I am more that ever convinced that we are seeing the actual implementation of 'Britannia Unchained' and 'The Sovereign Individual' in plain sight.

JRM was feckin awful in HoC being held to account for energy and fracking, just an out of his depth, supercilious and arrogant twat. Coffey is just an idiot who doesn't realise what an idiot she is and her ABCD for the NHS was truly lazy, shocking and infantile. A puerile analysis and no plans to address the real issues ie workforce. Setting out 'expectations' rather than real accountable targets and blaming GPs for everything was just pathetic. Hidden away was the aim to use the private sector as mush as possible to hit targets ie hidden privatisation. Targeting folk on Universal Credit who only work part time is just vicious and belies their beliefs that the British worker is lazy - see Britannia Unchained. The trailing of the 'Not the Budget' Fiscal Event has been scary, if you didn't have anything to hide then why not publish the OBR analysis? The whole 'levelling up' agenda has been binned by the very guys who sold it to us in the first place, it was La La Land anyway, and has been replaced by a nebulous 'growth' objective which essentially means Gov borrowing lots of money which Joe Public will need to pay back over next 10 - 20 years in order to line the pockets of their backers ie bankers, power industries, etc. I could go on .... Freeports and Charter Cities, no doubt called some other stupid name, scare the shit out of me.

We are really up shit creek without a paddle and the markets and exchanges are voting with their money. Obviously hiring 'experts' from the Taxpayer Alliance and IEA as the new gov economic advisors hasn't seemed to quell the fears of the markets This is a bunch of right wing zealots on a ideological spree, put in place by the ERG and going for broke before being found out. It is going to be a feckin shambles. I honestly despair.