The Scottish Politics Thread

[tc27]

You realise what you’ve quoted there literally says there’s no right to self determination, right?

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

[Tichtheid]

You realise what you’ve quoted there literally says there’s no right to self determination, right?

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

[Biffer]

You realise what you’ve quoted there literally says there’s no right to self determination, right?

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

How many sovereign states recognise multiple nations within their state?

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Your blind faith in Westminster’s goodwill is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I’m impatient for independence because I want to get on a change our country into a progressive modern European social democracy, instead of this backwards looking imperial relic I currently have to live in.

Well, I definitely agree with the bolded bit. I'm just hoping a Labour government will undo some of horrific damage the tories have done to the country over the last 12 years. And while I totally respect your desire to see Scotland become a better place (I want that too), I understand the pragmatism of staying in a union with our biggest trading partners. Brexit has been an economic disaster, independence would be worse.

Anyway, it seems like there won't be a referendum for a while though, and our views are pretty entrenched.

[inactionman]

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

How many sovereign states recognise multiple nations within their state?

How many sovereign states were formed by Union?

[Tichtheid]

Your blind faith in Westminster’s goodwill is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I’m impatient for independence because I want to get on a change our country into a progressive modern European social democracy, instead of this backwards looking imperial relic I currently have to live in.

Well, I definitely agree with the bolded bit. I'm just hoping a Labour government will undo some of horrific damage the tories have done to the country over the last 12 years. And while I totally respect your desire to see Scotland become a better place (I want that too), I understand the pragmatism of staying in a union with our biggest trading partners. Brexit has been an economic disaster, independence would be worse.

Anyway, it seems like there won't be a referendum for a while though, and our views are pretty entrenched.

I keep hoping Labour are playing a long game, but every time I see one of their main players on tv I get despondent, last night Yvette Cooper refused to even acknowledge that Brexit is a disaster, repeating Starmer's mantra that there is no going back

[petej]

Your blind faith in Westminster’s goodwill is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I’m impatient for independence because I want to get on a change our country into a progressive modern European social democracy, instead of this backwards looking imperial relic I currently have to live in.

Well, I definitely agree with the bolded bit. I'm just hoping a Labour government will undo some of horrific damage the tories have done to the country over the last 12 years. And while I totally respect your desire to see Scotland become a better place (I want that too), I understand the pragmatism of staying in a union with our biggest trading partners. Brexit has been an economic disaster, independence would be worse.

Anyway, it seems like there won't be a referendum for a while though, and our views are pretty entrenched.

I wonder what a Tory Westminster government would have done to Norway if it was part of the UK. I suspect the result would be something similar to Scotland.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Your blind faith in Westminster’s goodwill is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I’m impatient for independence because I want to get on a change our country into a progressive modern European social democracy, instead of this backwards looking imperial relic I currently have to live in.

Well, I definitely agree with the bolded bit. I'm just hoping a Labour government will undo some of horrific damage the tories have done to the country over the last 12 years. And while I totally respect your desire to see Scotland become a better place (I want that too), I understand the pragmatism of staying in a union with our biggest trading partners. Brexit has been an economic disaster, independence would be worse.

Anyway, it seems like there won't be a referendum for a while though, and our views are pretty entrenched.

I keep hoping Labour are playing a long game, but every time I see one of their main players on tv I get despondent, last night Yvette Cooper refused to even acknowledge that Brexit is a disaster, repeating Starmer's mantra that there is no going back

I know, I don't understand why they're so scared of calling it out as a complete shitshow. They can surely give younger voters an even bigger reason to vote Labour by just acknowledging it.

[Paddington Bear]

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

How many sovereign states recognise multiple nations within their state?

Canada would be the obvious starting point and comparison. Belgium, Spain, Germany? (Bavaria retains some national institutions and has no right of secession), France (I know you said recognise so Corsica etc isn't a direct comparator but their treatment of it is fine under international law). Beyond that? There are far more recent unions that have less autonomy for old nations or national ambitions, Italy springs to mind, India etc. Not exhaustive but the Scottish case isn't so unusual.

[Biffer]

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

How many sovereign states recognise multiple nations within their state?

How many sovereign states were formed by Union?

I'm not aware of any, which kind of makes my point - the situation in the UK is rather different as there's not a country structured in a comparable way.

[tc27]

If one wanted a particular outcome or situation to rest entirely at one's own whim, then one would set up a series of statutes, mechanisms and actors who have been conditioned to act or interpret in a predictable manner, in order to create a status quo that cannot be challenged from without, only at one's own behest.

The people who live in Scotland have no right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed, this judgements states that there is no legal arrangement for the voters in Scotland to act on their own, they must only be allowed to do so at the whim of the UK government.

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

Its also not unusual in being constituted out of historical nations and kingdoms - pretty much every state in Europe and indeed arguably the US are,

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

[Tichtheid]

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

You're just repeating what Biffer and I have been saying here, yet somehow you're of the mind that you're opposing it.

[tc27]

I disagree but this is clearly not a constructive way to fill up this thread.

[Biffer]

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

Its also not unusual in being constituted out of historical nations and kingdoms - pretty much every state in Europe and indeed arguably the US are,

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

[tc27]

This of course is nonsense - voters in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone in UK wide elections else and an extra layer of government with specific devolved powers.

The UK in common with every other single sovereign state on earth doesnt allow unilateral secession. A hypothetical independent Scotland would also function like this.

How many sovereign states recognise multiple nations within their state?

Canada would be the obvious starting point and comparison. Belgium, Spain, Germany? (Bavaria retains some national institutions and has no right of secession), France (I know you said recognise so Corsica etc isn't a direct comparator but their treatment of it is fine under international law). Beyond that? There are far more recent unions that have less autonomy for old nations or national ambitions, Italy springs to mind, India etc. Not exhaustive but the Scottish case isn't so unusual.

Loads and loads of examples - the US for example is a Union of states some of which were sovereign (in particularly Texas). It also has special federal reservations for Indian tribes in which it concedes limited sovereignty (but not the right to secede). It also thought a war on the legal principal of secession being illegal (slavery being legal until 1865)

[Line6 HXFX]

So this means War right?

They are not allowing democracy..
Democracy (by any measure) is in place of War..


War it is?

Do people and English courts think we are fucking about?
Talk or War. No talkee, tis war'eee.
Where do we mass with our stakes and longbows?

[Tichtheid]

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

Its also not unusual in being constituted out of historical nations and kingdoms - pretty much every state in Europe and indeed arguably the US are,

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

You'd think the penny would have dropped by now.

[Big D]

So this means War right?

They are not allowing democracy..
Democracy (by any measure) is in place of War..


War it is?

Do people and English courts think we are fucking about?
Talk or War. No talkee, tis war'eee.
Where do we mass with our stakes and longbows?

Sure bash on if you like.

[Paddington Bear]

I've already explained to you that Scotland, like England, is a country, but it is not a State.

To repeat, there is no legal mechanism for the people who live in Scotland to be asked if they wish to chart their own course without permission from Westminster, a fact you've just repeated there.

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

Its also not unusual in being constituted out of historical nations and kingdoms - pretty much every state in Europe and indeed arguably the US are,

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

Yes, and this is not unreasonable. No state would set itself up in such a manner.

[Big D]

The union needs the Tories out of government.
The divide and conquer, ageist, English nationalist political games of the Tories are undermining the union. Then combined with massive levels of incompetence over the last decade . Also having been exposed to a fairer electoral system in the devolved governments FPTP and Westminster look awful and childish and the argument that alternatives are too complex just seems patronising.

I'm not Welsh but looking at the tidal wave of corruption, incompetence, childishness and shit emanating from Westminster and Fleet Street does make you consider things like independence.

In Scotland we haven’t voted them into power in nearly 70 years. Personally I’m fed up of waiting for the rest of you to catch up. Even if they’re voted out next time round we know England will probably vote them back in the next time. What’s the point of carrying on as part of that?

Some of us don't want the Tories or the SNP so are pretty fucked for the ages.

[tc27]

Even if this was an actual substitute for an argument the UK is clearly a state and a country by any objective analysis.

Its also not unusual in being constituted out of historical nations and kingdoms - pretty much every state in Europe and indeed arguably the US are,

The legal mechanism for a referendum is a Section 30 order in council as happened in 2014.

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

You'd think the penny would have dropped by now.

The 'people' of Texas or Bavaria (or their devolved legislatures) cannot trigger such a referendum either

And nor can the people of England or any other part of the UK.

I appreciate you don't like this but its simply the way countries work and is completely usual.

[Line6 HXFX]

So this means War right?

They are not allowing democracy..
Democracy (by any measure) is in place of War..


War it is?

Do people and English courts think we are fucking about?
Talk or War. No talkee, tis war'eee.
Where do we mass with our stakes and longbows?

Sure bash on if you like.

So what is the alterative to democracy if not War?

Cowardice?

[inactionman]

So this means War right?

They are not allowing democracy..
Democracy (by any measure) is in place of War..


War it is?

Do people and English courts think we are fucking about?
Talk or War. No talkee, tis war'eee.
Where do we mass with our stakes and longbows?

Sure bash on if you like.

So what is the alterative to democracy if not War?

Cowardice?

I'd recommend a good lie down.

[Biffer]

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

You'd think the penny would have dropped by now.

The 'people' of Texas or Bavaria (or their devolved legislatures) cannot trigger such a referendum either

And nor can the people of England or any other part of the UK.

I appreciate you don't like this but its simply the way countries work and is completely usual.

And do you view that as morally right? Not legally, morally?

[Line6 HXFX]

Sure bash on if you like.

So what is the alterative to democracy if not War?

Cowardice?

I'd recommend a good lie down.

Yeah but when we wake up.. we have War, or democracy..
In the words of winston churchill..War War or Jaw Jaw.

I mean we could all be nhilistic arseholes who believe in nothing admittedly, but not sure they were around in 1945.

[Big D]

So this means War right?

They are not allowing democracy..
Democracy (by any measure) is in place of War..


War it is?

Do people and English courts think we are fucking about?
Talk or War. No talkee, tis war'eee.
Where do we mass with our stakes and longbows?

Sure bash on if you like.

So what is the alterative to democracy if not War?

Cowardice?

No, just fed up of damaging referendums to be honest.

[Tichtheid]

The point is that the legal mechanism cannot be triggered by the people of Scotland.

You'd think the penny would have dropped by now.

The 'people' of Texas or Bavaria (or their devolved legislatures) cannot trigger such a referendum either

And nor can the people of England or any other part of the UK.

I appreciate you don't like this but its simply the way countries work and is completely usual.

It's nothing as facile or shallow as me or anyone else not liking it, the situation is that there could be annual polls in Scotland 100% favour of independence for a decade or more, but no legal right to a vote.

That is clearly absurd.

As to the people of England analogy, the people of England get what the people of England vote for at every general election, everyone in the UK gets what the people of England vote for.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it is just a fact.

Now, it could be said that the people of Scotland got what they voted for in the referendum in 2014, I'm not going to deny that, what I find bizarre is the idea that there is too much democracy, not enough top-down mandating going on, which is the only back up to the notion that those who live in Scotland should not be allowed to vote in a referendum.

[GogLais]

I’m confused- well ignorant really. What is the Scottish gov’t banned from doing? I realise they can’t hold their own referendum and then declare UDI but are they banned from consulting the Scottish people about independence in any way, even commissioning an opinion poll? And if they are, what would happen if they did?

[Slick]

I’m not sure the non Scots on here quite understand the rules around this.

We have to act shocked and amazed that this has happened. Despite only thinking of it a few months ago we have to pretend that this ruling has dragged us down for centuries and is something we have been fighting against for generations. We have to pretend this is a a complete surprise and join marches across the country. We have to pretend that this is definitely not how we thought the laws worked and is yet another Tory plot to keep us down.

Grown up debate? Serious discussion? Honesty? Nah, another pantomime to keep the masses bubbling

[Biffer]

I’m not sure the non Scots on here quite understand the rules around this.

We have to act shocked and amazed that this has happened. Despite only thinking of it a few months ago we have to pretend that this ruling has dragged us down for centuries and is something we have been fighting against for generations. We have to pretend this is a a complete surprise and join marches across the country. We have to pretend that this is definitely not how we thought the laws worked and is yet another Tory plot to keep us down.

Grown up debate? Serious discussion? Honesty? Nah, another pantomime to keep the masses bubbling

That’s one of the most childish things I’ve seen anyone write on this thread. But a unionist lowering the level of debate is genuinely surprising to me.

[Slick]

I’m not sure the non Scots on here quite understand the rules around this.

We have to act shocked and amazed that this has happened. Despite only thinking of it a few months ago we have to pretend that this ruling has dragged us down for centuries and is something we have been fighting against for generations. We have to pretend this is a a complete surprise and join marches across the country. We have to pretend that this is definitely not how we thought the laws worked and is yet another Tory plot to keep us down.

Grown up debate? Serious discussion? Honesty? Nah, another pantomime to keep the masses bubbling

That’s one of the most childish things I’ve seen anyone write on this thread. But a unionist lowering the level of debate is genuinely surprising to me.

Interesting that you hold unionists in such high regard, I guess.

But I’m not a unionist, or any other division you want to use, I’m Scottish.

What I find childish is intelligent folk pretending they are with this bullshit. Have an honest conversation, not this nonsense. As I’ve said many times, I, like many other people, am certainly not against the concept of independence, bit this is just playground nonsense that contributes nothing to the actual debate.

You know this, and that’s what’s really frustrating

[fishfoodie]

I’m not sure the non Scots on here quite understand the rules around this.

We have to act shocked and amazed that this has happened. Despite only thinking of it a few months ago we have to pretend that this ruling has dragged us down for centuries and is something we have been fighting against for generations. We have to pretend this is a a complete surprise and join marches across the country. We have to pretend that this is definitely not how we thought the laws worked and is yet another Tory plot to keep us down.

Grown up debate? Serious discussion? Honesty? Nah, another pantomime to keep the masses bubbling

That’s one of the most childish things I’ve seen anyone write on this thread. But a unionist lowering the level of debate is genuinely surprising to me.

Interesting that you hold unionists in such high regard, I guess.

But I’m not a unionist, or any other division you want to use, I’m Scottish.

What I find childish is intelligent folk pretending they are with this bullshit. Have an honest conversation, not this nonsense. As I’ve said many times, I, like many other people, am certainly not against the concept of independence, bit this is just playground nonsense that contributes nothing to the actual debate.

You know this, and that’s what’s really frustrating

As an outsider, I can see both sides of the dispute, allbeit, with my being more sympathetic towards the Nationalist side.

The theater is all coming from the Tories in London; the SNP are just playing the cards they have available to them.

I was a little surprised the SNP didn't sight the difference between NI & Scotland in their case to the Supreme Court. In the last few months we've had a Tory NI Minister saying they wouldn't be slow to call a referendum for Irish Reunification if they saw indications that one would be successful; & this question came, because SF had just won a majority in an election to the assembly. Meanwhile, a few miles way, other UK citizens were told that a significant supporting Scottish Independence in their assembly elections would never be grounds for a referendum.

Some UK citizens are more equal than others !
.... or apparently the UK accepts that NI is a colony, & its citizens are victims of colonial oppression, & thus are entitled to want to leave.

I still think the SNP should spend more time on putting an adult proposal on what a Scexit will look like on the other side; warts & all, & cultivate alliances with other EU Parties, to enable them to show a credible path to Scottish EU membership.

[Big D]

In other, more important than yesterdays, news (we knew that already), teachers are on strike across the country today. From speaking to a few teacher friends and my wife who works at a school but not a teacher, they are in this for the long haul and will not but greatly from 10%. A few of them have said they think 10% spread across 2 years would probably get a deal done.

All it seems the latest offer from Shirley-Anne Somerville and Cosla have done is make it worse.

[Tichtheid]

I’m confused- well ignorant really. What is the Scottish gov’t banned from doing? I realise they can’t hold their own referendum and then declare UDI

That's about the size of it, this was pretty much a test case sent before the Supreme Court in order to establish the legitimacy of any referendum the SG put into place without permission from Westminster,

but are they banned from consulting the Scottish people about independence in any way, even commissioning an opinion poll? And if they are, what would happen if they did?

There would be little point in putting forward a referendum or even a large-scale public poll, it would be a complete waste of money and would probably garner a lot of resentment. Nothing would "happen" as such, really nothing, as it wouldn't have any standing

This doesn't mean they can't use professional polling as an indicator as to the support they'd have for Indy, I'm sure they do their own private polling as well, all political parties do this.

[Paddington Bear]

That’s one of the most childish things I’ve seen anyone write on this thread. But a unionist lowering the level of debate is genuinely surprising to me.

Interesting that you hold unionists in such high regard, I guess.

But I’m not a unionist, or any other division you want to use, I’m Scottish.

What I find childish is intelligent folk pretending they are with this bullshit. Have an honest conversation, not this nonsense. As I’ve said many times, I, like many other people, am certainly not against the concept of independence, bit this is just playground nonsense that contributes nothing to the actual debate.

You know this, and that’s what’s really frustrating

As an outsider, I can see both sides of the dispute, allbeit, with my being more sympathetic towards the Nationalist side.

The theater is all coming from the Tories in London; the SNP are just playing the cards they have available to them.

I was a little surprised the SNP didn't sight the difference between NI & Scotland in their case to the Supreme Court. In the last few months we've had a Tory NI Minister saying they wouldn't be slow to call a referendum for Irish Reunification if they saw indications that one would be successful; & this question came, because SF had just won a majority in an election to the assembly. Meanwhile, a few miles way, other UK citizens were told that a significant supporting Scottish Independence in their assembly elections would never be grounds for a referendum.

Some UK citizens are more equal than others !
.... or apparently the UK accepts that NI is a colony, & its citizens are victims of colonial oppression, & thus are entitled to want to leave.

I still think the SNP should spend more time on putting an adult proposal on what a Scexit will look like on the other side; warts & all, & cultivate alliances with other EU Parties, to enable them to show a credible path to Scottish EU membership.

NI is different because it is subject to an international treaty and Scotland isn't, this isn't complicated.

[Insane_Homer]

Just told my wife that whilst our union is consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I’m confused- well ignorant really. What is the Scottish gov’t banned from doing? I realise they can’t hold their own referendum and then declare UDI but are they banned from consulting the Scottish people about independence in any way, even commissioning an opinion poll? And if they are, what would happen if they did?

I don't know what the sanctions would be, but yes they are barred from holding a consultative/advisory referendum on independence. It turns out the laws considers not just what you call it but the practical implications of the act of holding something you label advisory. And no, they're not barred from commissioning opinion polls

So it's a completely fair ruling given the law, but it will for many fail a sense of natural justice, how and whether the Scotland act can be amended will perhaps garner some attention. Tricky given the position of both Labour and the Tories

[Blackmac]

In other, more important than yesterdays, news (we knew that already), teachers are on strike across the country today. From speaking to a few teacher friends and my wife who works at a school but not a teacher, they are in this for the long haul and will not but greatly from 10%. A few of them have said they think 10% spread across 2 years would probably get a deal done.

All it seems the latest offer from Shirley-Anne Somerville and Cosla have done is make it worse.

That's the problem, this just doesn't matter and is secondary to the all consuming wish for independence. I think the latest opinion polls show less than 25% in favour of a new referendum in the near future, as people have far greater concerns.
Sturgeon and her government seem completely unable to come up with anything to tackle the huge problems the country has got. Everything in this country is going down the shitter and all we hear from her and the group of idiots behind her is excuses, broken promises and irrelevant crap like the latest gender recognition shite.

[tc27]

In other, more important than yesterdays, news (we knew that already), teachers are on strike across the country today. From speaking to a few teacher friends and my wife who works at a school but not a teacher, they are in this for the long haul and will not but greatly from 10%. A few of them have said they think 10% spread across 2 years would probably get a deal done.

All it seems the latest offer from Shirley-Anne Somerville and Cosla have done is make it worse.

That's the problem, this just doesn't matter and is secondary to the all consuming wish for independence. I think the latest opinion polls show less than 25% in favour of a new referendum in the near future, as people have far greater concerns.
Sturgeon and her government seem completely unable to come up with anything to tackle the huge problems the country has got. Everything in this country is going down the shitter and all we hear from her and the group of idiots behind her is excuses, broken promises and irrelevant crap like the latest gender recognition shite.

Making a good point that the in particular the desire for another referendum anytime soon and independence itself is a minority position - think some commentators seem to have forgotten this.

[Dogbert]

In other, more important than yesterdays, news (we knew that already), teachers are on strike across the country today. From speaking to a few teacher friends and my wife who works at a school but not a teacher, they are in this for the long haul and will not but greatly from 10%. A few of them have said they think 10% spread across 2 years would probably get a deal done.

All it seems the latest offer from Shirley-Anne Somerville and Cosla have done is make it worse.

That's the problem, this just doesn't matter and is secondary to the all consuming wish for independence. I think the latest opinion polls show less than 25% in favour of a new referendum in the near future, as people have far greater concerns.
Sturgeon and her government seem completely unable to come up with anything to tackle the huge problems the country has got. Everything in this country is going down the shitter and all we hear from her and the group of idiots behind her is excuses, broken promises and irrelevant crap like the latest gender recognition shite.

Making a good point that the in particular the desire for another referendum anytime soon and independence itself is a minority position - think some commentators seem to have forgotten this.

The only poll that is at all relevant is the one where eveyone gets to put a cross on a ballot - If you really don't like it then do something about it