What to do with Beauden Barrett?

[Gumboot]

Just put BB on the wing. Mo'unga is a better 10 at the moment at Super level and has all the potential to become a better test 10, if he gets some gametime in that position. Jordie got trown into the deep to quickly but is a potential WPOY and 15 will be his position moving forward (otherwise he would have changed franchises). But BB is still one of the best players in the world and nobody will convince me that George Bridge is a better winger than BB. Put him on the wing, he will score plenty of tries, be good on defence, has a good kicking game and you don't have to worry about a 10 on the bench anymore.

That hadn't been an issue for a while, since they started using dual play-makers with McKenzie or B Barrett at fullback. Will be interesting to see if Fozzie completely changes tack.

[average joe]

No idea. He asked to go so presumably that’s a flouncing rather than banning.

Possibly a Handyman multi

Can the mods check if this post is accurate?

Nah, you're to dull to have a multi. Only three posters fits the bill. Bad Lieutenant, Eight-eye and another poster who seemed to follow Eight-eye around (cant recall his name). Not really Eight-eye's style though so either Bad Lieutenant or the other guy.

[handyman]

Possibly a Handyman multi

Can the mods check if this post is accurate?

Nah, you're to dull to have a multi. Only three posters fits the bill. Bad Lieutenant, Eight-eye and another poster who seemed to follow Eight-eye around (cant recall his name). Not really Eight-eye's style though so either Bad Lieutenant or the other guy.

A plaasjapie from Free State calling someone dull Well, now I have seen everything.

[Gumboot]

Who was the guy with the choker t-shirt? Scythe?

[Guy Smiley]

Who was the guy with the choker t-shirt? Scythe?

The Boss. Always followed his own posts with a

[average joe]

Can the mods check if this post is accurate?

Nah, you're to dull to have a multi. Only three posters fits the bill. Bad Lieutenant, Eight-eye and another poster who seemed to follow Eight-eye around (cant recall his name). Not really Eight-eye's style though so either Bad Lieutenant or the other guy.

A plaasjapie from Free State calling someone dull Well, now I have seen everything.

I was defending your honour, jou dore ou poes.

[Carter's Choice]

It's looking more and more like this debate will be unnecessary this year, as All Back test matches look less and less likely.

That's a shame, but this virus and pandemic are not to be taken lightly. It's weird that the NH nations, with far worse numbers of deaths and infections, will likely play tests but NZ and Aust won't.

[Gumboot]

Who was the guy with the choker t-shirt? Scythe?

The Boss. Always followed his own posts with a

Ah right,. Saffers all look the same to me.

[average joe]

Who was the guy with the choker t-shirt? Scythe?

The Boss. Always followed his own posts with a

Ah right,. Saffers all look the same to me.

Racist much?

[Guy Smiley]

Who was the guy with the choker t-shirt? Scythe?

The Boss. Always followed his own posts with a

Ah right,. Saffers all look the same to me.

I’ve had a think about that... you’re right. They’re one and the same. Banned as Scythe, came back as the Boss. He’s been back several times since but as you say, they all start to look the same and I don’t take so much notice.

Sards was always easy to pick, though...

[Jb1981]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-b ... ve-rivalry

Marc Hinton has had his say - eventually saying advantage Mo’unga to be starting 10.

There were a couple of strange assessments in there. One near the end where Mo’unga’s game management was seen as a weakness and a comment early on where I wondered if he had the players back to front:

we have the bamboozling brilliance of a Mo’unga battling the cool, clinical class of a Beauden Barrett

[Certain Navigator]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-b ... ve-rivalry

Marc Hinton has had his say - eventually saying advantage Mo’unga to be starting 10.

There were a couple of strange assessments in there. One near the end where Mo’unga’s game management was seen as a weakness and a comment early on where I wondered if he had the players back to front:

we have the bamboozling brilliance of a Mo’unga battling the cool, clinical class of a Beauden Barrett

Hinton has been a Barrett fan boi for years. Everything he says about BB needs to be divided by about 10.

[FujiKiwi]

It’s not like Barrett has ever shown “bamboozling brilliance” as a 10 anyway. He’s actually pretty pedestrian and predictable there.

What he has is that eye for a gap and burst of acceleration (at least he used to). Not prerequisites for a 10 anyway.

To hark back to the OP’s original question, the answer is to put BB on the All Black bench. That’s unlikely to happen because of what economists call the sunk cost fallacy-“we’ve invested so much so it would be a waste not to persevere”. The next best thing is to start him at 15, which is probably what is going to happen.

[Carter's Choice]

It’s not like Barrett has ever shown “bamboozling brilliance” as a 10 anyway. He’s actually pretty pedestrian and predictable there.

What he has is that eye for a gap and burst of acceleration (at least he used to). Not prerequisites for a 10 anyway.

To hark back to the OP’s original question, the answer is to put BB on the All Black bench. That’s unlikely to happen because of what economists call the sunk cost fallacy-“we’ve invested so much so it would be a waste not to persevere”. The next best thing is to start him at 15, which is probably what is going to happen.

I agree with this entire post.

[Gumboot]

I don't want to see him back at 10, but there's no denying he was bloody good there in 2016 when he was preferred to Cruden.

[FujiKiwi]

He had a good year at 10, against mediocre opposition, largely. We’re approaching half a decade since that particular flash in the pan.

The thing is now not that he will keep Mo’unga out of the 10 position. He won’t. The danger is that the next best first five-probably Josh Ioane-will miss valuable game time so that BB fits in the match day 23. At least starting BB at 15 might alleviate some of that. But then, is he the AB future at 15 anyway? (Hint: no).

[Carter's Choice]

Ian Foster favoured off-the-cuff, headless chicken Rugby when he coached the Chiefs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he reverts back to the original dual playmaker combination of BB at 10 and McKenzie at 15, with Mo'unga riding pine or left out altogether. Remember this two thirds of the same selection team that dropped Sam Cane for the final and played Scott Barrett at 6.

[Gumboot]

He had a good year at 10, against mediocre opposition, largely. We’re approaching half a decade since that particular flash in the pan.

Hardly flash in the pan - he won World Rugby Player of the Year twice.

He was fantastic in 2016 against all opposition.

[FujiKiwi]

DMac has looked right out of form. Surely Foster can see that.

My prediction is that Fozzie will definitely go the double playmaker route, but with R Mo and BB.

Still won’t make many bordies happy because that won’t be the best use of either player.

There was nothing wrong with Ben Smith not being a playmaker through those successful years. Hansen got too clever by half post 2015, and I suspect we’ll see more of the same.

[Carter's Choice]

DMac has looked right out of form. Surely Foster can see that.

My prediction is that Fozzie will definitely go the double playmaker route, but with R Mo and BB.

Still won’t make many bordies happy because that won’t be the best use of either player.

There was nothing wrong with Ben Smith not being a playmaker through those successful years. Hansen got too clever by half post 2015, and I suspect we’ll see more of the same.

Yep, too many cooks spoil the broth when it comes to playmakers.

[Gumboot]

DMac has looked right out of form. Surely Foster can see that.

My prediction is that Fozzie will definitely go the double playmaker route, but with R Mo and BB.

Still won’t make many bordies happy because that won’t be the best use of either player.

There was nothing wrong with Ben Smith not being a playmaker through those successful years. Hansen got too clever by half post 2015, and I suspect we’ll see more of the same.

Yep, too many cooks spoil the broth when it comes to playmakers.

AC
I just had a look at the old AB 2020 selection fred, and this is what you posted a couple of weeks ago:

If I was picking the All Black backline to play a test match this weekend, it would be;

15. Jordie Barrett
14. Sevu Reece
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Reiko Ioane
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Will Jordan

That's about where I'm at, too. Was considering Rieko starting at centre, but I now like the balance of this backline more. I'd deffo have Jordie at 15.

[Guy Smiley]

He had a good year at 10, against mediocre opposition, largely. We’re approaching half a decade since that particular flash in the pan.

Hardly flash in the pan - he won World Rugby Player of the Year twice.

He was fantastic in 2016 against all opposition.

Sidestepping the argument over BB’s merits as a player, I’d like to add that I have no respect of the IRB player for the year award. It seems more of a political award than anything.

[Jb1981]

DMac has looked right out of form. Surely Foster can see that.

My prediction is that Fozzie will definitely go the double playmaker route, but with R Mo and BB.

Still won’t make many bordies happy because that won’t be the best use of either player.

There was nothing wrong with Ben Smith not being a playmaker through those successful years. Hansen got too clever by half post 2015, and I suspect we’ll see more of the same.

Yep, too many cooks spoil the broth when it comes to playmakers.

The previous coaching team may have felt clever with the dual playmaker tag and perhaps even thought they had invented something, but it’s nothing new. Any good team should have players able to read a game and step in when needed. For whatever reason we oversold it as something different and ended up with an arrangement that often felt pre-arranged or contrived, like a batsman predetermining their shot rather than playing the ball on its merits - Craig McMillan like even.

Taking the Mo’unga vs Barrett discussion to the simplest level, I can’t imagine a game that the ABs would lose with Mo’unga starting 10 that they would have won with Barrett there. It’s not the same the other way around though.

These days Barrett may put the icing on the cake when given space but those are the games we’d have won anyway (like the Wallabies test a couple of years ago). It’s the close ones vs. strong defences that are the concern and that’s where I’d take Mo’unga every time.

[FujiKiwi]

We’re just a choir preaching to each other at this stage. Overseas trolls like Stuart Barnes, Mark Reason and Amethyst aside, no rugby fans believe Barrett should start at 10.

A more interesting and divisive topic might be whether he deserves a spot in the starting XV or match 23 at all.

[Monkey Magic]

We’re just a choir preaching to each other at this stage. Overseas trolls like Stuart Barnes, Mark Reason and Amethyst aside, no rugby fans believe Barrett should start at 10.

A more interesting and divisive topic might be whether he deserves a spot in the starting XV or match 23 at all.

If there are no tests this year and he has as little impact for the Blues next year you'd have to say starting him at 15 wouldn't be great. However Ioane would need a massive season to leapfrog him to second best 10 on the country

[Jb1981]

I enjoyed the * on this

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

We’re just a choir preaching to each other at this stage. Overseas trolls like Stuart Barnes, Mark Reason and Amethyst aside, no rugby fans believe Barrett should start at 10.

A more interesting and divisive topic might be whether he deserves a spot in the starting XV or match 23 at all.

It does seem ridiculous to entertain the notion that anyone other than Mo'unga should start for the ABs at 10 but the coach Ian Foster and one of the top journos Marc Hinton seem to think Barrett has a fair shot.



Dear oh fucking dear. Are we in for another late 90s/early 00s period with idiots like this involved in the national game?

[Carter's Choice]

Did anyone else feel that BB really stifled what was a red-hot North island team backline? It was Damien McKenzie that created opportunities for his teammates playing as a 2nd playmaker on the edge.

[Wild Beef]

Re op, I still think BB is the second best ten in the country. He’s starting fb or bench.

[FujiKiwi]

Re op, I still think BB is the second best ten in the country. He’s starting fb or bench.

Josh Ioane is a more creative player at 10.

[CrazyIslander]

The dual playmaker only works if it's a 90/10 split in playmaking duties, the 10 making most of the decisions. The 15 can come in on an attacking scrum to take the blind or something like that.

[Jb1981]

The dual playmaker only works if it's a 90/10 split in playmaking duties, the 10 making most of the decisions. The 15 can come in on an attacking scrum to take the blind or something like that.

And it’s nothing new but for some reason last year they coined the phrase and talked like it was something revolutionary. I think in doing that it became too much of a shared arrangement and I agree with you, that split doesn’t work.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Re op, I still think BB is the second best ten in the country. He’s starting fb or bench.

Josh Ioane is a more creative player at 10.

Yep.

[Dan54]

It’s not like Barrett has ever shown “bamboozling brilliance” as a 10 anyway. He’s actually pretty pedestrian and predictable there.

What he has is that eye for a gap and burst of acceleration (at least he used to). Not prerequisites for a 10 anyway.

To hark back to the OP’s original question, the answer is to put BB on the All Black bench. That’s unlikely to happen because of what economists call the sunk cost fallacy-“we’ve invested so much so it would be a waste not to persevere”. The next best thing is to start him at 15, which is probably what is going to happen.

He won 2 world player of the year at 10. I a Mounga fan, but if you or anyone thinks that BB has never been a top 10 you just showing your lack of knowledge of the game, he actually arguably out played RM yesterday, though bugger all in it. I reckon we got 2 of top 3-5 10s in the world in RM and BB. And I suppose to be fair to BB he has had to play out of position this year to help at Blues.

[Carter's Choice]

I a Mounga fan, but if you or anyone thinks that BB has never been a top 10 you just showing your lack of knowledge of the game, he actually arguably out played RM yesterday, though bugger all in it.

In what way did he outplay Mo'unga? I'm interested to know what actions

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

What's remarkable about Foster's love of the headless chook style of play is his own first class career.

He was 10 in a shit hot Waikato team that had a cracking pack and a backline that had the ability to cut teams to ribbons but only after they'd earned the right to go wide.

And yet, here we are.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

It’s not like Barrett has ever shown “bamboozling brilliance” as a 10 anyway. He’s actually pretty pedestrian and predictable there.

What he has is that eye for a gap and burst of acceleration (at least he used to). Not prerequisites for a 10 anyway.

To hark back to the OP’s original question, the answer is to put BB on the All Black bench. That’s unlikely to happen because of what economists call the sunk cost fallacy-“we’ve invested so much so it would be a waste not to persevere”. The next best thing is to start him at 15, which is probably what is going to happen.

He won 2 world player of the year at 10. I a Mounga fan, but if you or anyone thinks that BB has never been a top 10 you just showing your lack of knowledge of the game, he actually arguably out played RM yesterday, though bugger all in it. I reckon we got 2 of top 3-5 10s in the world in RM and BB. And I suppose to be fair to BB he has had to play out of position this year to help at Blues.

How many of the critical player of the year awards has Barrett won at 10 since the start of the rush defence strategy?

[CrazyIslander]

The dual playmaker only works if it's a 90/10 split in playmaking duties, the 10 making most of the decisions. The 15 can come in on an attacking scrum to take the blind or something like that.

And it’s nothing new but for some reason last year they coined the phrase and talked like it was something revolutionary. I think in doing that it became too much of a shared arrangement and I agree with you, that split doesn’t work.

It put pressure on both to do something with their opportunity as playmaker when the best option would be a mundane one, shovel it on or kick for touch.

[Steve]

I don't want to see him back at 10, but there's no denying he was bloody good there in 2016 when he was preferred to Cruden.

Barrett was a playstation character that year. Like someone had a joypad and was just holding the sprint button.

[Steve]

Its a strange one foe me this year. I think Jordie is undroppable (still think he should have been kicking in 3rd Lions test). I think Will Jordan is undroppable, I think Mo'unga is undroppable and I think Beaudy is unleaveoutable.

Obviously that's all contradictory.