The Scottish Politics Thread

[Tichtheid]

It turns out that someone has made my point for me https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2020/08/2 ... low-taxes/

So when we post links to official government data or respected news sources, you are countering with a blog

Let's take the OECD as a starter http://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/tax- ... 0in%202018.

The entire first part of this blog is nonsense, France as the OECD link shows is actually 46.1% not 53.2% like your blogger contends, that is an enormous difference they are also the highest in the OECD not Norway, so the entire premise of this blog is wrong with the most basic fact checks.

"My blogger" is a professional economist and economic advisor, as well as being an academic.

What he actually said in his article was

Let’s compare that 37.4% to what other counties take as state income. We will use official OECD stats for 2015 (the latest on their website but it has only gone up since then). These figures cover all revenues collected by all levels of government. In Germany the state took 45% of GDP in revenues, France (53.2%), Denmark (53.2%), Norway (55.3%), and Sweden (49.3%).

The relevant link is here https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-gover ... evenue.htm

There is a mistake in his post, though, you can scroll forward to 2019, where you'll find the numbers for revenues taken by the UK as 38.9% of GDP and Norway as 58.1%. France is 52.6%

I'm on a fly by whilst my tea cooks, I'll try to come back to this later.

[Biffer]

Douglas Ross also appeared to suggest Hansard had incorrectly recorded his vote on the amendment about maintaining food standards. That’s a hell of an allegation.

And the NFU Scotland has gone on the record to say that he misled the public about their position.

Is he going to last as long as Jackson Carlow did?

[Sandstorm]

This wordy thread blows up any stereotype that you Scots are dour, taciturn types.

[I like neeps]

And commentary in today's Times

I just don't see why commuting and office work is seen as the engine of the economy that we must revert to asap. Because people saving money on commuting are going to spend that money, plan jobs for where they spend it. Companies are going to save on rents, hopefully they invest that into their company and their staff, if not tax the higher profits they'll have and invest that money in job creation schemes.

Also I don't buy people will no longer want coffee or lunches/dinners or to see friends. Anecdotally, where I live slightly outside of Oxford the cafes and pubs are doing a much better trade than I've ever seen. The coffee shop I used to go to a Saturday is now full all day every day. There's jobs to be created with imagination. Hoping the Pret/Starbucks/WH Smith at the train station is back to what they are is stupid. That isn't happening. Lets plan for what is next, not what was.

I dont either FWIW but we are miles behind our continental peers in getting the economy moving again and rhetoric from Nicola that we must all stay scared and at home certainly doesnt help get the economy going again. Quite simply if we dont have so many commuting, we dont need so many people employed to commute them and to feed them in the cities, now this could well just be a structural shift and as you say the cafes on the outskirts of Oxford do better at the expense of the City ones, so be it but as the economy shrinks so do the tax receipts and i am not seeing anything from the SG that remotely deals with this, the all consuming message is elimination of the virus which incidentally cant be done IMHO.

I don't know enough about other countries to comment. My opinion is Sturgeon should've moved with the English "government". As you say elimination is impossible, suppression we'll see is also largely impossible in winter I believe. Schools and Universities and moving gatherings indoors from the cold will see spikes. I have sympathy with Sturgeon and all governments really, this is impossible. You have to react as much as being proactive with planning the economy. The structural shifts are coming, how do you structure a commuter economy around homeworking? I think the key part of raising tax receipts Scotland doesn't have the power right now to do. The ecommerce and data cartels, the asset owners benefiting from this round of QE, they have to be the targets. Scotland would struggle with that even as an independent nation, it has to be a concerted global effort. This is my problem with independence, the structural changes required are more global than they are national I believe.

On the Scottish govt I agree there isn't much of a plan but without very low case numbers any plan largely goes out the windaes.

[Biffer]

The UK isn't big enough to have leverage against the big tech companies either. Only really the US, the EU and maybe China have the clout.

[Slick]

I just don't see why commuting and office work is seen as the engine of the economy that we must revert to asap. Because people saving money on commuting are going to spend that money, plan jobs for where they spend it. Companies are going to save on rents, hopefully they invest that into their company and their staff, if not tax the higher profits they'll have and invest that money in job creation schemes.

Also I don't buy people will no longer want coffee or lunches/dinners or to see friends. Anecdotally, where I live slightly outside of Oxford the cafes and pubs are doing a much better trade than I've ever seen. The coffee shop I used to go to a Saturday is now full all day every day. There's jobs to be created with imagination. Hoping the Pret/Starbucks/WH Smith at the train station is back to what they are is stupid. That isn't happening. Lets plan for what is next, not what was.

I dont either FWIW but we are miles behind our continental peers in getting the economy moving again and rhetoric from Nicola that we must all stay scared and at home certainly doesnt help get the economy going again. Quite simply if we dont have so many commuting, we dont need so many people employed to commute them and to feed them in the cities, now this could well just be a structural shift and as you say the cafes on the outskirts of Oxford do better at the expense of the City ones, so be it but as the economy shrinks so do the tax receipts and i am not seeing anything from the SG that remotely deals with this, the all consuming message is elimination of the virus which incidentally cant be done IMHO.

I don't know enough about other countries to comment. My opinion is Sturgeon should've moved with the English "government". As you say elimination is impossible, suppression we'll see is also largely impossible in winter I believe. Schools and Universities and moving gatherings indoors from the cold will see spikes. I have sympathy with Sturgeon and all governments really, this is impossible. You have to react as much as being proactive with planning the economy. The structural shifts are coming, how do you structure a commuter economy around homeworking? I think the key part of raising tax receipts Scotland doesn't have the power right now to do. The ecommerce and data cartels, the asset owners benefiting from this round of QE, they have to be the targets. Scotland would struggle with that even as an independent nation, it has to be a concerted global effort. This is my problem with independence, the structural changes required are more global than they are national I believe.

On the Scottish govt I agree there isn't much of a plan but without very low case numbers any plan largely goes out the windaes.

The announcement this morning from SG about "a national mission for jobs" is what gets my goat a bit. The emphasis is to be on "green jobs with fair pay and good conditions". This is all very laudable, genuinely, but at this moment shouldn't we be just concentrating on jobs, any jobs, and the economy. We are in serious shit and the ideology should be put to one side while we build back to a certain point. It's not nice, but it's needed.

Plus, who is going to pay for the training courses and the benefits until we have enough green jobs to go round?

[Northern Lights]

It turns out that someone has made my point for me https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2020/08/2 ... low-taxes/

So when we post links to official government data or respected news sources, you are countering with a blog

Let's take the OECD as a starter http://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/tax- ... 0in%202018.

The entire first part of this blog is nonsense, France as the OECD link shows is actually 46.1% not 53.2% like your blogger contends, that is an enormous difference they are also the highest in the OECD not Norway, so the entire premise of this blog is wrong with the most basic fact checks.

"My blogger" is a professional economist and economic advisor, as well as being an academic.

What he actually said in his article was

Let’s compare that 37.4% to what other counties take as state income. We will use official OECD stats for 2015 (the latest on their website but it has only gone up since then). These figures cover all revenues collected by all levels of government. In Germany the state took 45% of GDP in revenues, France (53.2%), Denmark (53.2%), Norway (55.3%), and Sweden (49.3%).

The relevant link is here https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-gover ... evenue.htm

There is a mistake in his post, though, you can scroll forward to 2019, where you'll find the numbers for revenues taken by the UK as 38.9% of GDP and Norway as 58.1%. France is 52.6%

I'm on a fly by whilst my tea cooks, I'll try to come back to this later.

Let's get serious your blogger held a post at Napier University, wasn't even a uni when he started there, so yes an academic but hardly one from an esteemed institution. Napier famous for being the uni you opt for if you cant get into Edinburgh or Heriot Watt but still fancy the embra uni lifestyle.

First and foremost he is a politician, he is hard left with his views, now this clearly appeals to some people as Corbyn still managed to garner votes but not the majority even in left leaning Scotland we arent full on marxists.

I assume the difference between the OECD link on tax revenue to GDP and total government revenue to gdp will be state owned companies. Brazil came highest which i assume is to do with Petrobras amongst other things, not sure why he leaves them out of his "weighty" analysis. So to boost total government revenues he and i assume you are proposing not only eye-watering levels of taxation but also widespread nationalisation of industry, which history is littered with examples of what that does to the economy and economic growth.

The guy is a blogger whose economic views and analysis are very much on the fringe, if this is how you hope to plug the £15bn deficit (more than our entire health spend) god help us all.

[Northern Lights]

I just don't see why commuting and office work is seen as the engine of the economy that we must revert to asap. Because people saving money on commuting are going to spend that money, plan jobs for where they spend it. Companies are going to save on rents, hopefully they invest that into their company and their staff, if not tax the higher profits they'll have and invest that money in job creation schemes.

Also I don't buy people will no longer want coffee or lunches/dinners or to see friends. Anecdotally, where I live slightly outside of Oxford the cafes and pubs are doing a much better trade than I've ever seen. The coffee shop I used to go to a Saturday is now full all day every day. There's jobs to be created with imagination. Hoping the Pret/Starbucks/WH Smith at the train station is back to what they are is stupid. That isn't happening. Lets plan for what is next, not what was.

I dont either FWIW but we are miles behind our continental peers in getting the economy moving again and rhetoric from Nicola that we must all stay scared and at home certainly doesnt help get the economy going again. Quite simply if we dont have so many commuting, we dont need so many people employed to commute them and to feed them in the cities, now this could well just be a structural shift and as you say the cafes on the outskirts of Oxford do better at the expense of the City ones, so be it but as the economy shrinks so do the tax receipts and i am not seeing anything from the SG that remotely deals with this, the all consuming message is elimination of the virus which incidentally cant be done IMHO.

I don't know enough about other countries to comment. My opinion is Sturgeon should've moved with the English "government". As you say elimination is impossible, suppression we'll see is also largely impossible in winter I believe. Schools and Universities and moving gatherings indoors from the cold will see spikes. I have sympathy with Sturgeon and all governments really, this is impossible. You have to react as much as being proactive with planning the economy. The structural shifts are coming, how do you structure a commuter economy around homeworking? I think the key part of raising tax receipts Scotland doesn't have the power right now to do. The ecommerce and data cartels, the asset owners benefiting from this round of QE, they have to be the targets. Scotland would struggle with that even as an independent nation, it has to be a concerted global effort. This is my problem with independence, the structural changes required are more global than they are national I believe.

On the Scottish govt I agree there isn't much of a plan but without very low case numbers any plan largely goes out the windaes.

On this we are lagely talking corporation tax and VAT, there are other industry specific taxes on stuff like the oil industry but that is of increasingly irrelevant. VAT at 20% is line with the likes of France, there is clearly scope to increase CT but i think that would very dangerous if England and Ireland our near neighbours have much lower CT given the largest part of our economy is financial services and i dont see those companies and people for that matter staying in Edinbrugh and Glasgow for very long if there is an increased divergence, we are close to tipping point with income tax as it is.

So by all means they can raise the tax rate but i firmly believe they will just worsen an already terrible economic situation.

I have a degree of sympathy for them all as everyone is scrambling about trying to work out the best response, however this runs out when they are being hamstrung by their own weaknesses of building lightweight teams around them, this actually applies to Sturgeon and Boris. They both have extremely weak cabinets with a bunch of sycophants as opposed to genuine talent around them.

[Northern Lights]

Comment piece in today's Times, yes he is a full on Unionist, have at it Nats.

Independence is a quack cure for everything
For Scottish nationalists the diagnosis doesn’t matter — the prescription will always be to leave the United Kingdom
Kevin Hague
Tuesday September 01 2020, 12.01am, The Times

In The Times last week Andrew Wilson, chairman of the SNP’s Sustainable Growth Commission, sought to justify his belief that the latest Scottish expenditure and revenue figures showed a problem to which independence must be the answer.

I was reminded of a scene in Blackadder in which our hero visits the quack Dr Leech. After a cursory assessment the doctor announces that a cure has been developed for exactly this problem. Edmund interrupts, asking wearily: “It wouldn’t have anything to do with leeches, would it?”

For Scottish nationalists, the diagnosis is irrelevant because the prescription is always the same. In the 1980s, by laying claim to the riches from North Sea oil, they argued that Scotland was a large net fiscal contributor to the UK. This was used as an unashamedly selfish reason for independence: it’s our oil! Now, with North Sea oil revenues a trickle and the Barnett Formula protecting higher public spending, the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) figures show Scotland a clear beneficiary of fiscal transfers from England. With tiresome predictability, this makes no difference to committed separatists because, apparently, sharing with our neighbours is wrong no matter which way the money flows.

Scotland benefits from these transfers because the UK’s deficit and debt burden is shared. This means Scotland’s capacity to invest in public services is determined not by the 8.6 per cent Scottish deficit shown in Gers but by the far more manageable 2.5 per cent UK deficit.

Wilson argued that the higher deficit was evidence of “a structural problem with the UK” that “locks in inequality”, but this fails to consider what causes the higher deficit: lower revenue or higher spending?

The Gers figures show that Scotland doesn’t suffer from poorer revenue generation, it benefits from higher spending. Public spending per head is 12 per cent higher than the UK average, higher per capita than any UK region other than Northern Ireland. The nationalist logic here is ridiculous: if the Barnett Formula were scrapped and Scottish public spending decimated, Scotland’s deficit would come into line with the UK average and, voila, the structural problem would be gone!

To share resources is to lack ambition, we are told. What nationalists are in effect demanding is an abandonment of the solidarity and common citizenship upon which the UK’s welfare state was built. If we believe that a citizen’s access to healthcare, education and welfare should not be constrained by their region’s tax generation, we should celebrate that taxes from across the UK fund Scotland’s fully devolved education and healthcare systems.

But a hammer sees a nail and Dr Leech will reach for his leeches. Nobody is saying Scotland couldn’t be independent, but its present public spending would be unsustainable. The EU’s fiscal compact requires a structural deficit target of 0.5 per cent. To reduce Scotland’s deficit even to the UK’s 2.5 per cent would require a £10.7 billion improvement, equivalent to a 13 per cent cut in spending. Scotland would need some combination of cuts, tax rises and/or extraordinary GDP growth. By highlighting £14 billion of spending reserved to Westminster, Wilson invited us to assume that massive cost savings would be easily found. He did not mention that the SNP’s notoriously optimistic independence white paper found net savings of only £600 million. By stretching the bounds of credibility even further, the Sustainable Growth Commission assumed cost savings of £2 billion — still a long way short of £10.7 billion.

This is why, despite describing austerity as “self-harming and counter-productive”, the SGC report ends up tacitly endorsing it. Future cost savings are banked to reduce the deficit rather than to undo austerity, and spending as a proportion of GDP is cut even further. Tax rises are not mentioned, presumably for fear of talent and capital flight. So the final hope is that abandoning the UK would drive exceptional growth in Scotland. But why should it?

Vague gestures are made towards Ireland, despite the nationalists’ rejection of attracting tax-avoiding multinationals with low corporation taxes. Wilson bemoaned borders caused by Brexit, before suggesting that Scotland would create a border with the UK by joining the EU. After more than 40 years of unfettered EU market access, 19 per cent of Scottish exports go to the EU but more than 60 per cent go to the UK. Moreover, the SGC implied that it would take at least a decade to establish the fiscal credibility needed to join the EU.

Wilson touched on Covid-19, suggesting that if Denmark, Finland, New Zealand and the Netherlands can cope, so would Scotland. But Finland runs a deficit of 1.1 per cent and the others run surpluses. All have well-established central banks.

So why break up the UK? If addressing inequality is our motive, why prevent funds flowing from wealthier to poorer parts of these islands? If Brexit damages our economy, why react by leaving the market that is objectively more important and the union within which we share a currency? As so often, we grapple with hypothetical problems that only separation would cause. Far from being the cure, it’s a quack doctor’s prescription that would only make us worse.

Kevin Hague is chairman of These Islands, a pro-Union think tank

[Northern Lights]

Last bit from me as im off to do some work.

The Times view on Scotland’s recovery: Down to Business
The leadership Nicola Sturgeon has shown during the coronavirus crisis needs to be matched by a coherent strategy for rebuilding a shattered economy
Tuesday September 01 2020, 12.01am, The Times
Share
Save
For five months the economy has taken second place to tackling the pandemic. Jobs have been secure thanks to the UK government’s support scheme. Cafés and restaurants have been kept going by the imaginative “eat out to help out” discount. Small businesses have clung on by their fingertips and banks have extended loans.

All or most of that will come to an end this autumn as the government schemes are wound up and companies are thrown back on their own resources. Whether they have the resilience to survive will reveal, for the first time, the damage the coronavirus outbreak has wrought on the foundations of the economy. For governments everywhere it will pose questions about whether or how far they should continue to intervene.

Saving jobs, and creating new ones, will be high on national agendas across the world. In Scotland, both the Conservatives and the SNP are this week launching their proposals for stimulating business and re-energising the economy. Balancing the need to ensure the disease is kept at bay with the urgent requirement to get people back to work is not an easy task, but critical to its success will be an understanding of what the private sector needs to rebuild confidence and start the process of returning to previous levels of activity.

For the Scottish Conservatives, the emphasis is on improving infrastructure, notably transport, and reaching out to small businesses. There is certainly a need to explore retraining schemes for laid-off workers, and the party’s intention to focus on town centres, which have suffered badly from the effects of the epidemic, is to be welcomed. Whether the plans put forward yesterday have been fully costed is something that will doubtless be tested before next year’s Holyrood elections, but tackling the quango system that so often holds back enterprise is a policy that is long overdue. It is, of course, a notional plan — the Tories are unlikely to be in a position to exercise power in Scotland next year — but beginning a debate on how best to recharge the economy may, at this stage, be as important as delivering a manifesto.

The SNP government will set out its legislative programme today. Already Nicola Sturgeon has indicated that much of it will again be dominated by coronavirus and suppressing it, which is, she says, “the single most important thing that we, as a nation, can do”. That is only true if, at the same time, the nation can sustain its workforce and the industries on which its jobs depend. The record of her government in this respect is not impressive. She has spoken of fairness at work and a need to stimulate the green economy; she has pledged to introduce a “national manufacturing institute” to be a centre of excellence, and a Scottish national investment bank that is meant to be operational by the end of this year; she has spoken of the strengths of Scottish industry and her intention to make it “stronger, fairer and more sustainable”. But thus far she has offered no evidence of how she intends to achieve that.

Business leaders have often struggled to understand the SNP government’s policy towards the private sector. Unlike her predecessor, Alex Salmond, Ms Sturgeon has few direct connections to the business world. Her speeches on the subject are few and far between; she prefers references to the potential of a future independent Scotland to setting out how the nation’s existing powers can best be deployed to help business; and the interventions of her government have not been notable for their success. The takeover of the Ferguson shipyard has been little short of a fiasco.

The coronavirus epidemic has shown a first minister capable of offering leadership and reassurance to the Scottish people. She has yet to demonstrate that she is as capable when it comes to the tough decisions and coherent strategy necessary to help rebuild a shattered economy.

[tc27]

As fun as the annual GERS discussion is, I don't think it is a solid basis for a discussion on what the economy of an independent Scotland would look like. It IS a good starting point for a discussion on what the economy of the Republic of Scotland would look like if it did everything the same as the UK does, which will patently not be the case.

This seems to be a standard line from nationalists online - really though its meaningless. Unless you can point to specific tax policies that would generate billions more in revenue or indicate where you would make billions of savings in spending then its just a dishonest attempt to avoid answering difficult questions.

Scotland would prioritise different things (e.g. no Faslane nuclear subs that primarily serve as a deterrent for having money in the bank), and would presumably make different fiscal policy decisions.

From what I can work out Trident costs Scotland £200 million out of the total £70 billion. Its peanuts and scrapping it would not alter the picture in any meaningful way. What are these 'other choices' or fiscal policies exactly?

My major worry that made me waver in the run up to my 2014 Yes vote was that Scotland's credit rating would be poor for a long time, making the cost of borrowing considerably higher than for the UK. But as with most things.

All the currency options are still awful - and had 'yes' won in 2014 the attempt to unofficially use the pound would have left Scotland unable to respond to Covid.

Brexit has changed the other side of the equation so much - we are no longer comparing the uncertainties of independence with the 'strong & stable' of staying in the UK. We are comparing it with certain turmoil, falling credit ratings, and being tethered to ugly British (English) nationalism.

I have some sympathy for this view - but splitting up the UK would lead to all the negative effects of Brexit applied manifold (plus a whole host of new issues).

Aye, independence will be tough. Funnily enough, so will staying in a dysfunctional Union.

How tough - has the nationalist movement properly grappled the 'toughness' and being honest with people about it? Or is it all just sunlit uplands are 'easiest deal in history' guff.

I think many Unionists have still not grasped this yet - that their own offering has changed beyond comprehension since 2014. All the (at least partially) justifiable warnings and doom-mongering don't make any sense anymore because they apply at least as much to the UK as a whole. Deficits in trillions, the NHS falling apart despite meaningless rhetoric about 'best health care system in the world', mass unemployment etc...we're already experiencing that. Scare us with something else.

Without going into the extent of how true this whole statement is - you do not react to a injured hand by chopping off your leg.

[Tichtheid]

Let's get serious your blogger held a post at Napier University, wasn't even a uni when he started there, so yes an academic but hardly one from an esteemed institution. Napier famous for being the uni you opt for if you cant get into Edinburgh or Heriot Watt but still fancy the embra uni lifestyle.

First and foremost he is a politician, he is hard left with his views, now this clearly appeals to some people as Corbyn still managed to garner votes but not the majority even in left leaning Scotland we arent full on marxists.

I assume the difference between the OECD link on tax revenue to GDP and total government revenue to gdp will be state owned companies. Brazil came highest which i assume is to do with Petrobras amongst other things, not sure why he leaves them out of his "weighty" analysis. So to boost total government revenues he and i assume you are proposing not only eye-watering levels of taxation but also widespread nationalisation of industry, which history is littered with examples of what that does to the economy and economic growth.

The guy is a blogger whose economic views and analysis are very much on the fringe, if this is how you hope to plug the £15bn deficit (more than our entire health spend) god help us all.

Kerevan was in a Marxist group in his twenties, he left it nearly forty years ago. He has published on energy economics, and coal in particular, because that was his particular area of interest, if I recall correctly he was an advisor to the NUM, again forty years ago.

He was an MP at which time he served on the Treasury Select Committee, before that he chaired the Economic Development Committee at Edinburgh City Council in the 90s, which among other things, oversaw the development of the Gyle and instigated the Science Festival. He has a hand in the festival of flight at Prestwick.

We already have large scale-state ownership in the UK, only that ownership is from the likes of Germany where Deutsche Bahn are the parent company of Arriva and in energy where EDF's parent company is the French state-owned Électricité de France S.A. The Italian state-owned rail company run services in the east of England.

In the UK we've allowed a situation whereby the state underwrites all the risk in the rail service, as well as paying for the track, but private companies are allowed to make a profit. The east coast link from London to Scotland, Southern etc - I'd need Malcolm Tucker's vocabulary to adequately describe how well privatisation has gone.

[Tichtheid]

As an aside, this is not to say I advocate full nationalisation and five year plans - there are industries and endeavours that are suited to the marketplace, a maker of "widgets" can get their products to where they are wanted and needed far more efficiently than any national programme can, I don't envisage a state-run rugby side or a state-employed musician.

However, there are natural monopolies that work well within a nationalised framework, health provision, education, large infrastructure projects, defence & policing, services such as energy and water fall into this category in my book.

[Bimbowomxn]

In the UK we've allowed a situation whereby the state underwrites all the risk in the rail service, as well as paying for the track, but private companies are allowed to make a profit. The east coast link from London to Scotland, Southern etc - I'd need Malcolm Tucker's vocabulary to adequately describe how well privatisation has gone.

I wonder how well they’ve done in the last 6 months. The state OWNS the track.

[Northern Lights]

Let's get serious your blogger held a post at Napier University, wasn't even a uni when he started there, so yes an academic but hardly one from an esteemed institution. Napier famous for being the uni you opt for if you cant get into Edinburgh or Heriot Watt but still fancy the embra uni lifestyle.

First and foremost he is a politician, he is hard left with his views, now this clearly appeals to some people as Corbyn still managed to garner votes but not the majority even in left leaning Scotland we arent full on marxists.

I assume the difference between the OECD link on tax revenue to GDP and total government revenue to gdp will be state owned companies. Brazil came highest which i assume is to do with Petrobras amongst other things, not sure why he leaves them out of his "weighty" analysis. So to boost total government revenues he and i assume you are proposing not only eye-watering levels of taxation but also widespread nationalisation of industry, which history is littered with examples of what that does to the economy and economic growth.

The guy is a blogger whose economic views and analysis are very much on the fringe, if this is how you hope to plug the £15bn deficit (more than our entire health spend) god help us all.

Kerevan was in a Marxist group in his twenties, he left it nearly forty years ago. He has published on energy economics, and coal in particular, because that was his particular area of interest, if I recall correctly he was an advisor to the NUM, again forty years ago.

He was an MP at which time he served on the Treasury Select Committee, before that he chaired the Economic Development Committee at Edinburgh City Council in the 90s, which among other things, oversaw the development of the Gyle and instigated the Science Festival. He has a hand in the festival of flight at Prestwick.

We already have large scale-state ownership in the UK, only that ownership is from the likes of Germany where Deutsche Bahn are the parent company of Arriva and in energy where EDF's parent company is the French state-owned Électricité de France S.A. The Italian state-owned rail company run services in the east of England.

In the UK we've allowed a situation whereby the state underwrites all the risk in the rail service, as well as paying for the track, but private companies are allowed to make a profit. The east coast link from London to Scotland, Southern etc - I'd need Malcolm Tucker's vocabulary to adequately describe how well privatisation has gone.

Sorry I just don’t put any weight to a Marxist whose academic claim to fame is a 3rd rate uni. Now I know that plenty of Nats aspire to mediocrity but not me, I want more and expect for the nation so I will be looking for more economic insight than this bloke.

By the way getting onto the treasury select committee is about who you know not what you know. I know 2 blokes who’ve been on it, one who spent less than 3 years as an MP.

Anyway have you got anything to actually address our £15bn deficit? Nationalising the rail and energy networks won’t actually close that gap, it will increase it once you pay out the shareholders of those companies or are you proposing the John mcdonnell school of nationalisation of just offers government paper on it which is effectively worthless? Either even that won’t get close to closing the gap as those companies aren’t making that kind of profit, in fact an awful lot of the rail companies are giving up their franchises because they can’t make it work.

[Tichtheid]

I get the feeling, NL, that no matter what is posted you'll merely denigrate the source unless they agree with you, at which point they will be lauded as "respected".

I see nothing from your posts that suggests you aspire to anything for the nation beyond remaining a region of the UK.

[Northern Lights]

I get the feeling, NL, that no matter what is posted you'll merely denigrate the source unless they agree with you, at which point they will be lauded as "respected".

I see nothing from your posts that suggests you aspire to anything for the nation beyond remaining a region of the UK.

See I have posted various respected news sources such as the Times, BBC etc. I also look to the background of an economist, what their political views are, source material and so on.

I do dismiss the likes of Kerevan as he has no standing as an academic, is clearly hard left which I want no truck with as that is anathema to me for various reasons mostly because of the utter destruction the falsehoods they peddle inflict on what should be prosperous nations, they destroy livelihoods and increasingly seek to control the populace to their own ends.

What I do not want for our nation is to force austerity on steroids onto the population for some romantic bullshit. The SNP have presided over plunging educational attainment, deteriorating health service, stripped local councils bare of funding, mismanaged a whole plethora of projects from ferries, to Prestwick. Legislation like named person, now the hate speech bill is a huge erosion of our civil liberties. One of the first acts by Sturgeon with respect to the pandemic was to suspend freedom of information, they have vast sums of money that has come north from the treasury that is unaccounted for. They increasingly have become more secretive and escaping any oversight. They have been found wanting but the likes of you, who are clearly articulate and possessing intelligence will continue to vote for them in their droves. I find this increasingly frustrating and depressing in equal measure.

Independence is not important, never has been but is now the only thing that is properly discussed with politics in Scotland which plays perfectly into the SNP’s hands as it allows them to carry on making an arse of things to the detriment of the Scottish population. Vote left, vote right I really don’t care but ask a hell of a lot more from our politicians and be prepared to vote for another party if they fail to deliver.

[Tattie]

Independence isn’t important, yet you bang on about it constantly.

You really need to put an “IMO” at the beginning of your posts. Like it or not, not everyone in Scotland, not by a long chalk, thinks that the SG are “destroying livelihoods” and “making an arse of it”, quite the opposite in fact. Posting your views on a message board doesn’t make them true or any more valid than anyone else’s.

I also love the way you use the term “nat” as a pejorative when you’re as big a nat as anyone else on the board. But of course, your brand of nationalism is ok.

I’m awa for a rowie.

[Biffer]

Independence isn’t important, yet you bang on about it constantly.

You really need to put an “IMO” at the beginning of your posts. Like it or not, not everyone in Scotland, not by a long chalk, thinks that the SG are “destroying livelihoods” and “making an arse of it”, quite the opposite in fact. Posting your views on a message board doesn’t make them true or any more valid than anyone else’s.

I also love the way you use the term “nat” as a pejorative when you’re as big a nat as anyone else on the board. But of course, your brand of nationalism is ok.

I’m awa for a rowie.

I’m quite happy to let LN bang on. He doesn’t realise that his way of raving about it encourages more people into the pro independence camp.

I’m going on the basis that each post puts one more person in the yes column, so if we can get him to do another couple of hundred thousand between now and the next referendum we’re home and dry.

[TheNatalShark]

I’m quite happy to let LN bang on. He doesn’t realise that his way of raving about it encourages more people into the pro independence camp.

I’m going on the basis that each post puts one more person in the yes column, so if we can get him to do another couple of hundred thousand between now and the next referendum we’re home and dry.

Whilst rancid bait is rancid, I'm concerned that (more) people genuinely are making decisions on such criteria, that of overriding their decisions based on objective reasoning. The Guardian and some other outlets (pretty sure BBC ran as well) running stories that 'uneducated people' voted for Brexit really did encourage otherwise rational people to double down or look at who is on their 'side' and question if they were on the right side.

I hope it never becomes the case where I'm actually swayed by it, but reading his (+external) pretentious attitude towards others' credentials and name calling makes for nauseating reading when you do look at who you stand with. That smell is closer than of those facing us.

It's great to know that as an accountant my views on matters financial are irrelevant because I didn't top an Oxbridge year and did physics as one of my chosen subjects at school.

[clydecloggie]

I'll immediately declare a conflict of interest as I'm a full professor at a non-Russell Group uni - which essentially means folk like NL can ignore me as 'having no academic standing'.

If independence would achieve an end to the utterly misplaced idea that only 'right sorts with the right tie' can ever have a valid opinion, it would make me the happiest man alive probably. Unfortunately, that very British attitude still pervades debate in Scotland, though perhaps not as much as down south.

Last time I checked the Scottish NHS was in nowhere near as bad a state as the English NHS. That's a low bar to jump, but the SNP deserve credit for how they have managed to keep things more or less afloat so far. On infrastructure, the way in which the Queensferry Crossing was delivered is a feather in their cap. They've also managed to strike some sort of balance between going green and protecting the oil and gas sector, which is at least politically admirable.

In the minus column are the civil liberty laws which they keep cocking up due to lack of top-level legal minds, or sidelining the ones they do have. Education is a worry, although the whole attitude to education in Britain is fundamentally to blame in my view - I'd be much happier with a more continental approach to teaching our children, to be honest. And the Sturgeon cult of personality is abhorrent.

All in all, they've not done worse than your average Tory or Labour UK government, and in some areas they have clearly been better. But yeah, we'd go to hell in a handcart if these people were ever allowed to run an actual country...as opposed to a cabal of right sorts still fighting their childish public school and Varsity wars at the expense of the UK.

[Northern Lights]

Independence isn’t important, yet you bang on about it constantly.

You really need to put an “IMO” at the beginning of your posts. Like it or not, not everyone in Scotland, not by a long chalk, thinks that the SG are “destroying livelihoods” and “making an arse of it”, quite the opposite in fact. Posting your views on a message board doesn’t make them true or any more valid than anyone else’s.

I also love the way you use the term “nat” as a pejorative when you’re as big a nat as anyone else on the board. But of course, your brand of nationalism is ok.

I’m awa for a rowie.

I bang on about it because it drowns out all political discussion in Scotland and guess what Sturgeon used her draft legislation speech to confirm she is bringing forward legislation on a second referendum in this parlimentary term. This does not improve people's lives no more than Brexit does.

I have clearly laid out where the SNP have made an arse of it with a catalogue of failures, this isn't just my view it is backed with evidence but by all means just take it as my view. So how about rather than just say i disagree you post up a list of their achievements on how they are enriching our lives and how Scotland is now a better place to live than it was 13 years ago.

What brand of nationalism do you think i espouse, do you think i am a flag waving Union Brit? Just because i think independence is a stupid idea does make me a lover of all the Queen, the Union Flag, Westminster etc etc.

I’m quite happy to let LN bang on. He doesn’t realise that his way of raving about it encourages more people into the pro independence camp.

I’m going on the basis that each post puts one more person in the yes column, so if we can get him to do another couple of hundred thousand between now and the next referendum we’re home and dry.

Hate to disappoint you but i seriously doubt this site and this thread are viewed by couple of hundred thousand. What i post will not make any difference to you as nothing will change how you will vote, it may harden your views but it won't change your mind. Out of interest is there anything from any source that would change your mind?

Whilst rancid bait is rancid, I'm concerned that (more) people genuinely are making decisions on such criteria, that of overriding their decisions based on objective reasoning. The Guardian and some other outlets (pretty sure BBC ran as well) running stories that 'uneducated people' voted for Brexit really did encourage otherwise rational people to double down or look at who is on their 'side' and question if they were on the right side.

I hope it never becomes the case where I'm actually swayed by it, but reading his (+external) pretentious attitude towards others' credentials and name calling makes for nauseating reading when you do look at who you stand with. That smell is closer than of those facing us.

It's great to know that as an accountant my views on matters financial are irrelevant because I didn't top an Oxbridge year and did physics as one of my chosen subjects at school.

Is that you Rinkals? Not that it matters but it would appear i have again ruffled feathers by not lending the same weight to a blogger whose views are very much on the fringe and not mainstream economic opinion as opposed to a respected news sources and where the vast majority of economists opinion lies. I did however take the time to read his blog, post where i disagreed with his viewpoint and even looked to where the OECD numbers were sitting independently, admittedly also belittling the Uni he taught at.

Not quite sure why choosing physics matters or not makes any sort of point or you being an accountant, i dont recall saying your views are irrelevant either way.

I'll immediately declare a conflict of interest as I'm a full professor at a non-Russell Group uni - which essentially means folk like NL can ignore me as 'having no academic standing'.

If independence would achieve an end to the utterly misplaced idea that only 'right sorts with the right tie' can ever have a valid opinion, it would make me the happiest man alive probably. Unfortunately, that very British attitude still pervades debate in Scotland, though perhaps not as much as down south.

Last time I checked the Scottish NHS was in nowhere near as bad a state as the English NHS. That's a low bar to jump, but the SNP deserve credit for how they have managed to keep things more or less afloat so far. On infrastructure, the way in which the Queensferry Crossing was delivered is a feather in their cap. They've also managed to strike some sort of balance between going green and protecting the oil and gas sector, which is at least politically admirable.

In the minus column are the civil liberty laws which they keep cocking up due to lack of top-level legal minds, or sidelining the ones they do have. Education is a worry, although the whole attitude to education in Britain is fundamentally to blame in my view - I'd be much happier with a more continental approach to teaching our children, to be honest. And the Sturgeon cult of personality is abhorrent.

All in all, they've not done worse than your average Tory or Labour UK government, and in some areas they have clearly been better. But yeah, we'd go to hell in a handcart if these people were ever allowed to run an actual country...as opposed to a cabal of right sorts still fighting their childish public school and Varsity wars at the expense of the UK.

I didnt go to a Russell Group uni either and not even a professor of any uni, Napier or otherwise and i was having a pop at a fringe economist but hey its certainly been taken that i ignore people of no academic standing.

On what basis do you think the Scottish NHS isnt as bad as down South, I've done a wee bit of googling on this and it doesn't seem to be that easy to compare, these came up after a quick google and i've tried to pick out the independent news sources as opposed to ones that have a strong political bias:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/181 ... unterpart/

The other unevidenced claim by Mr Crawford is that "the Scottish NHS outperforms the NHS in the other countries of the Union". This has become political mantra, but is simply not the case. Overall A&E performance is more the exception with 89 per cent meeting the four-hour target in Scotland compared to 85 per cent in England. From the ISD Scotland and NHS England official statistics we are falling further behind NHS England, particularly since 2014. Scotland now has an average of 1,492 hospital beds blocked daily with delayed discharge patients as at October 2019, a magnitude some three times higher than the England rate. For potentially life-saving key diagnostics received within the six weeks target the Scotland NHS performance has plunged to 82 per cent compared to a robust 96 per cent south of the Border as at September 2019, a performance we once matched in 2014. For the RTT (Referral To Treatment) standard within 18 weeks performance is at 77 per cent and more than 250,000 patients missing the Treatment Time Guarantee, compared to a much higher 85 per cent in England, again as at September 2019.

Unfortunately that was just the letters section

There was this though which is a bit older (2014):

https://www.health.org.uk/publications/ ... ey-compare

Key points
It does not seem that the increasing divergence of policies since devolution has been associated with a matching divergence of performance.
There is little sign that one country is consistently moving ahead of the others.
In relation to measures such as amenable mortality, the pre-devolution differences seem to have changed relatively little while overall rates of amenable mortality have been falling. During the 2000s, the relative decline in amenable mortality was similar between the four countries.
There are signs of a convergence in performance between the four UK countries, perhaps as a result of cross-border comparison and learning.

I would say that we should have a better NHS as our spend through Barnett per head of population is significantly higher. It however does not seem to stand up to the same level of fact check, as opposed to what is now just taken as gospel.

Anecdotally i heard the Queensferry bridge wasnt needed because the original bridge is actually ok and not in as bad a state as was first feared, nothing to back this up that just came from a pal, however given teh resport they had at the time they definitely did have to build the new bridge as it would have been a disaster if the report was right. They did however deliver the AWPR which was long overdue, unfortunately it came in massively over budget which is a common theme with regards to big infrastructure projects.

As to we would go to hell, no, we would just have a lower standard of living, significantly so as we have a budget deficit that is unsustainable. Nobody is saying we can't be independent just that things would be worse , as we cant sustain the same level of expenditure that we enjoy today because we can't afford it, I have yet to see any credible evidence on why this is not the case. So what price are you all prepared to pay for us to become independent, are you happy for an insurance based health system for example? These are the sort of choices we would need to make as becoming indepdnent is not without cost and without risk but is too conveniently just wished away much like the Brexit debate was, you seem to be sick of experts the same way Gove said the Brexiteers were and we are seeing exatly how this clusterfuck is playing out.

[Slick]

I’m quite happy to let LN bang on. He doesn’t realise that his way of raving about it encourages more people into the pro independence camp.

I’m going on the basis that each post puts one more person in the yes column, so if we can get him to do another couple of hundred thousand between now and the next referendum we’re home and dry.

Whilst rancid bait is rancid, I'm concerned that (more) people genuinely are making decisions on such criteria, that of overriding their decisions based on objective reasoning. The Guardian and some other outlets (pretty sure BBC ran as well) running stories that 'uneducated people' voted for Brexit really did encourage otherwise rational people to double down or look at who is on their 'side' and question if they were on the right side.

I hope it never becomes the case where I'm actually swayed by it, but reading his (+external) pretentious attitude towards others' credentials and name calling makes for nauseating reading when you do look at who you stand with. That smell is closer than of those facing us.

It's great to know that as an accountant my views on matters financial are irrelevant because I didn't top an Oxbridge year and did physics as one of my chosen subjects at school.

As an accountant what are your views on the SNP seemingly having no fiscal plans for an independent country. No idea how to borrow, no idea how to raise funds and no idea on a currency. It seems madness to me that we can even be thinking about going independent with absolutlely zero clarity on fundemental economic issues. Even if they were honest and said we will suffer but here is our plan I might be able to go with that, but they have nothing, it's insane.

[Biffer]

What would it take to change my mind? I’d need to see prolonged evidence of a UK political class, media and general populace that wants to move more towards a Northern European economic and social model, rather than looking west to the USA. I’d need to see genuine efforts to grow economic activity In the less successful parts of England (the northern powerhouse bullshit is tokenism, they wouldn’t even approve one billion to upgrade the rail system across the Pennines from Liverpool to Hull, but £17billion for crossrail2 went through on the nod). I’d need to see an acknowledgement of what our position in the world really is instead of a rose tinted idealism of it which is based on the war and the empire.

That’s what I’d need.



And your throwaway remark about infrastructure projects? Let’s look at the M8 completion, borders rail, M74 extension, queensferry crossing, Airdrie-Bathgate line. All on time and on or under budget.

And anecdotally, I know someone who has been down into the main cable anchor points of the road bridge and was told that the situation was actually worse than what was stated. However, since then a new technology approach has been developed which would have allowed for cable repair and replacement. But the bridge would have had to close for a number of years, which would have had a crippling effect on the economy of the area.

[Slick]

I'll immediately declare a conflict of interest as I'm a full professor at a non-Russell Group uni - which essentially means folk like NL can ignore me as 'having no academic standing'.

If independence would achieve an end to the utterly misplaced idea that only 'right sorts with the right tie' can ever have a valid opinion, it would make me the happiest man alive probably. Unfortunately, that very British attitude still pervades debate in Scotland, though perhaps not as much as down south.

Last time I checked the Scottish NHS was in nowhere near as bad a state as the English NHS. That's a low bar to jump, but the SNP deserve credit for how they have managed to keep things more or less afloat so far. On infrastructure, the way in which the Queensferry Crossing was delivered is a feather in their cap. They've also managed to strike some sort of balance between going green and protecting the oil and gas sector, which is at least politically admirable.

In the minus column are the civil liberty laws which they keep cocking up due to lack of top-level legal minds, or sidelining the ones they do have. Education is a worry, although the whole attitude to education in Britain is fundamentally to blame in my view - I'd be much happier with a more continental approach to teaching our children, to be honest. And the Sturgeon cult of personality is abhorrent.

All in all, they've not done worse than your average Tory or Labour UK government, and in some areas they have clearly been better. But yeah, we'd go to hell in a handcart if these people were ever allowed to run an actual country...as opposed to a cabal of right sorts still fighting their childish public school and Varsity wars at the expense of the UK.

Decent post that, Clydecloggie.

There is no way I can say this without sounding patronising and condesending, but I assure you that isn't my intention. But it does amaze me that obviously intelligent and free thinking folk, of which almost all on this thread are, can look at the offering from the SNP and think, yeah that sounds credible. As I've said before I don't think there are many in the country that are ideologically opposed to independence - I'm certainly not and from his postings I'm pretty sure LN isn't - but I just can't see how anyone can look at the bare facts and think that it's credible and that this lot are the people to lead us to it.

On a slightly different track, has the idea ever been floated of the SNP saying if we win a vote we will hand over to a government of national unity (for want of a better phrase) and ask some really experienced politicians to lead it - Brown, Darling, Gove, Sturgeon etc. Frankly, it scares me shitless to think that the current SNP would be in charge of an independent country.

[Tattie]

No I don’t think Scotland is necessarily a better place to live now than it was 13 years ago but are you seriously blaming the SNP and SG for the banking crisis, global recession and Covid-19? Let me ask you this - do you think the UK as a whole is a better place to live than it was 13 years ago?

Also being a supporter of independence is not the same as blindly agreeing with everything the SNP do or say, this is a big problem for unionists. There are a great many who will vote for independence who will happily see the back of the SNP once that day arrives.

[Slick]

No I don’t think Scotland is necessarily a better place to live now than it was 13 years ago but are you seriously blaming the SNP and SG for the banking crisis, global recession and Covid-19? Let me ask you this - do you think the UK as a whole is a better place to live than it was 13 years ago?

Also being a supporter of independence is not the same as blindly agreeing with everything the SNP do or say, this is a big problem for unionists. There are a great many who will vote for independence who will happily see the back of the SNP once that day arrives.

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

[Tattie]

No I don’t think Scotland is necessarily a better place to live now than it was 13 years ago but are you seriously blaming the SNP and SG for the banking crisis, global recession and Covid-19? Let me ask you this - do you think the UK as a whole is a better place to live than it was 13 years ago?

Also being a supporter of independence is not the same as blindly agreeing with everything the SNP do or say, this is a big problem for unionists. There are a great many who will vote for independence who will happily see the back of the SNP once that day arrives.

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

[Biffer]

No I don’t think Scotland is necessarily a better place to live now than it was 13 years ago but are you seriously blaming the SNP and SG for the banking crisis, global recession and Covid-19? Let me ask you this - do you think the UK as a whole is a better place to live than it was 13 years ago?

Also being a supporter of independence is not the same as blindly agreeing with everything the SNP do or say, this is a big problem for unionists. There are a great many who will vote for independence who will happily see the back of the SNP once that day arrives.

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

That's a sensible approach, but there's no way in hell any of the people you're referring to would say they'd do that in advance of a referendum.

[Slick]

No I don’t think Scotland is necessarily a better place to live now than it was 13 years ago but are you seriously blaming the SNP and SG for the banking crisis, global recession and Covid-19? Let me ask you this - do you think the UK as a whole is a better place to live than it was 13 years ago?

Also being a supporter of independence is not the same as blindly agreeing with everything the SNP do or say, this is a big problem for unionists. There are a great many who will vote for independence who will happily see the back of the SNP once that day arrives.

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

As I said above, I'd like to see that as well. But it kind of dodges the question of what the plan is. Can we really be expected to vote for independence on the basis of "we have no economic plan but we will get some good people in after to sort it out"?

[Tattie]

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

As I said above, I'd like to see that as well. But it kind of dodges the question of what the plan is. Can we really be expected to vote for independence on the basis of "we have no economic plan but we will get some good people in after to sort it out"?

I would like to think they’re may be a tipping point in the polls where the SNP can reach out an olive branch and ask for a cross party group to be setup to work towards the best plans and solutions for this. Head in the clouds stuff probably and it will never happen as too many politicians are cnnts who don’t give two fucks about what’s best for the electorate.

[Northern Lights]

OK, that's a good point. But the fact remains they are in charge and steering this and they don't seem to have any credible post independence plan, so where is that going to come from?

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

That's a sensible approach, but there's no way in hell any of the people you're referring to would say they'd do that in advance of a referendum.

Slick is right in that i am not idealogically opposed to Indy, if I felt this was the right course for our country to take and it wouldn't seriously impair our living standards I would be fully onboard with it, incidentally if we do vote for it next time I will look to make the best of it, I do caveat with that could mean leaving as by the best of it i am being very selfish and looking after my family's interests here.

What I worry about from what Tattie is saying is that sounds very similar to the shitshow that is Brexit, Farage etc campaigned for it under UKIP, delivered the result but is nowhere to be seen in actually having to implement it. So the empty rhetoric of easiest trade deal in history type guff simply doesnt stand up to reality and the same will be true of Independence. There is no credible plan for currency, central bank, deficit reduction etc etc, and all of this absolutely critical if we are to make a proper go of it and none of it is being seriously addressed. Andrew Wilson tried but has been drowned out because his plans aren't sunlit uplands, they are closer to reality but are still way too optomistic with respect to economic growth and hasnt addressed what we are actually going to have to cut.

What would it take to change my mind? I’d need to see prolonged evidence of a UK political class, media and general populace that wants to move more towards a Northern European economic and social model, rather than looking west to the USA. I’d need to see genuine efforts to grow economic activity In the less successful parts of England (the northern powerhouse bullshit is tokenism, they wouldn’t even approve one billion to upgrade the rail system across the Pennines from Liverpool to Hull, but £17billion for crossrail2 went through on the nod). I’d need to see an acknowledgement of what our position in the world really is instead of a rose tinted idealism of it which is based on the war and the empire.

That’s what I’d need.



And your throwaway remark about infrastructure projects? Let’s look at the M8 completion, borders rail, M74 extension, queensferry crossing, Airdrie-Bathgate line. All on time and on or under budget.

And anecdotally, I know someone who has been down into the main cable anchor points of the road bridge and was told that the situation was actually worse than what was stated. However, since then a new technology approach has been developed which would have allowed for cable repair and replacement. But the bridge would have had to close for a number of years, which would have had a crippling effect on the economy of the area.

Which is what i conceded with the decision had to be made at the time based on the facts that were presented to them, it was more an interesting development that does actually sound right that they can safely extend the life of the forth road bridge. The M74 incidentally was one of the most expensive roads going and the original budget was increased significantly : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924687 . Havent looked at the rest mostly because of laziness.

I don't think the Northern Powerhouse is quite the tokenism you think it is, they have made some significant moves such as moving the beeb out of London to Manchester and there is heavy investment going into the North. The crossrail project is being financed by extra charges on developers etc in London, no idea how close or otherwise that gets to filling the gap but i do agree that London has had a disproportionate share of infrastructure expenditure for too long now and there is certain things that annoy the shit out of me on that. Our rail network north of the central belt is shite and needs billions spent on it, equally they need to dual/make into a motorway the A9 and A96 to give Inverness and the Highlands much needed boost. I would also like to see a proper motorway between Edinburgh and Newcastle that hooks up onto the M1.

[Biffer]

Personally, I would like to see a first parliament made up of the best, most capable politicians from across all parties working together for the greater good, a little fanciful perhaps. Then going forward a choice between proper left, middle and right parties. I think the SNP will cease to exist in their current form pretty much immediately (IMO).

That's a sensible approach, but there's no way in hell any of the people you're referring to would say they'd do that in advance of a referendum.

Slick is right in that i am not idealogically opposed to Indy, if I felt this was the right course for our country to take and it wouldn't seriously impair our living standards I would be fully onboard with it, incidentally if we do vote for it next time I will look to make the best of it, I do caveat with that could mean leaving as by the best of it i am being very selfish and looking after my family's interests here.

What I worry about from what Tattie is saying is that sounds very similar to the shitshow that is Brexit, Farage etc campaigned for it under UKIP, delivered the result but is nowhere to be seen in actually having to implement it. So the empty rhetoric of easiest trade deal in history type guff simply doesnt stand up to reality and the same will be true of Independence. There is no credible plan for currency, central bank, deficit reduction etc etc, and all of this absolutely critical if we are to make a proper go of it and none of it is being seriously addressed. Andrew Wilson tried but has been drowned out because his plans aren't sunlit uplands, they are closer to reality but are still way too optomistic with respect to economic growth and hasnt addressed what we are actually going to have to cut.

What would it take to change my mind? I’d need to see prolonged evidence of a UK political class, media and general populace that wants to move more towards a Northern European economic and social model, rather than looking west to the USA. I’d need to see genuine efforts to grow economic activity In the less successful parts of England (the northern powerhouse bullshit is tokenism, they wouldn’t even approve one billion to upgrade the rail system across the Pennines from Liverpool to Hull, but £17billion for crossrail2 went through on the nod). I’d need to see an acknowledgement of what our position in the world really is instead of a rose tinted idealism of it which is based on the war and the empire.

That’s what I’d need.



And your throwaway remark about infrastructure projects? Let’s look at the M8 completion, borders rail, M74 extension, queensferry crossing, Airdrie-Bathgate line. All on time and on or under budget.

And anecdotally, I know someone who has been down into the main cable anchor points of the road bridge and was told that the situation was actually worse than what was stated. However, since then a new technology approach has been developed which would have allowed for cable repair and replacement. But the bridge would have had to close for a number of years, which would have had a crippling effect on the economy of the area.

Which is what i conceded with the decision had to be made at the time based on the facts that were presented to them, it was more an interesting development that does actually sound right that they can safely extend the life of the forth road bridge. The M74 incidentally was one of the most expensive roads going and the original budget was increased significantly : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924687 . Havent looked at the rest mostly because of laziness.

I don't think the Northern Powerhouse is quite the tokenism you think it is, they have made some significant moves such as moving the beeb out of London to Manchester and there is heavy investment going into the North. The crossrail project is being financed by extra charges on developers etc in London, no idea how close or otherwise that gets to filling the gap but i do agree that London has had a disproportionate share of infrastructure expenditure for too long now and there is certain things that annoy the shit out of me on that. Our rail network north of the central belt is shite and needs billions spent on it, equally they need to dual/make into a motorway the A9 and A96 to give Inverness and the Highlands much needed boost. I would also like to see a proper motorway between Edinburgh and Newcastle that hooks up onto the M1.

I don't disagree about infrastructure investment, it's really needed, as I said in an earlier post we need a new line via Kinross to cut 30-40 minutes off the Edinburgh - Perth time. The A9 dualling is ongoing and I'd like to see it happening faster, but whilst a lot of it is relatively straightforward, there are some parts which are incredibly complex (e.g. Dunkeld) which will take years to complete. I think the deadline of 2025 will be missed, but I think the vast majority of it (>80%) will be done in that timescale.

The A1 is a shitshow, and needs both governments to agree on the investment. I doubt that'll happen the two of them will just bump heads. I'd like Scotrail to run more services to Newcastle and maybe York / Leeds but that would need a change to the licensing allowed for the Scotrail franchise.

I'd like the subsidies that are paid to renewables producers to be realigned so they don't include nuclear anymore (the old renewables obligation was ripped up and redefined specifically to give a vehicle to subsidise nuclear and delayed investment in renewables by several years, so any change would need to be done at speed so that the same delay doesn't happen again).

I disagree about the Northern Powerhouse investment though. It's peanuts compared to whats' done in the southeast. The definition of what qualifies as 'national infrastructure' is a fucking joke - widening the A13 in Kent was, so there's a contribution to that allocated to Scotland as apparently it's of benefit to us, but the Queensferry Crossing was local so all the cost is allocated to Scotland.

[Northern Lights]

That's a sensible approach, but there's no way in hell any of the people you're referring to would say they'd do that in advance of a referendum.

Slick is right in that i am not idealogically opposed to Indy, if I felt this was the right course for our country to take and it wouldn't seriously impair our living standards I would be fully onboard with it, incidentally if we do vote for it next time I will look to make the best of it, I do caveat with that could mean leaving as by the best of it i am being very selfish and looking after my family's interests here.

What I worry about from what Tattie is saying is that sounds very similar to the shitshow that is Brexit, Farage etc campaigned for it under UKIP, delivered the result but is nowhere to be seen in actually having to implement it. So the empty rhetoric of easiest trade deal in history type guff simply doesnt stand up to reality and the same will be true of Independence. There is no credible plan for currency, central bank, deficit reduction etc etc, and all of this absolutely critical if we are to make a proper go of it and none of it is being seriously addressed. Andrew Wilson tried but has been drowned out because his plans aren't sunlit uplands, they are closer to reality but are still way too optomistic with respect to economic growth and hasnt addressed what we are actually going to have to cut.

What would it take to change my mind? I’d need to see prolonged evidence of a UK political class, media and general populace that wants to move more towards a Northern European economic and social model, rather than looking west to the USA. I’d need to see genuine efforts to grow economic activity In the less successful parts of England (the northern powerhouse bullshit is tokenism, they wouldn’t even approve one billion to upgrade the rail system across the Pennines from Liverpool to Hull, but £17billion for crossrail2 went through on the nod). I’d need to see an acknowledgement of what our position in the world really is instead of a rose tinted idealism of it which is based on the war and the empire.

That’s what I’d need.



And your throwaway remark about infrastructure projects? Let’s look at the M8 completion, borders rail, M74 extension, queensferry crossing, Airdrie-Bathgate line. All on time and on or under budget.

And anecdotally, I know someone who has been down into the main cable anchor points of the road bridge and was told that the situation was actually worse than what was stated. However, since then a new technology approach has been developed which would have allowed for cable repair and replacement. But the bridge would have had to close for a number of years, which would have had a crippling effect on the economy of the area.

Which is what i conceded with the decision had to be made at the time based on the facts that were presented to them, it was more an interesting development that does actually sound right that they can safely extend the life of the forth road bridge. The M74 incidentally was one of the most expensive roads going and the original budget was increased significantly : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924687 . Havent looked at the rest mostly because of laziness.

I don't think the Northern Powerhouse is quite the tokenism you think it is, they have made some significant moves such as moving the beeb out of London to Manchester and there is heavy investment going into the North. The crossrail project is being financed by extra charges on developers etc in London, no idea how close or otherwise that gets to filling the gap but i do agree that London has had a disproportionate share of infrastructure expenditure for too long now and there is certain things that annoy the shit out of me on that. Our rail network north of the central belt is shite and needs billions spent on it, equally they need to dual/make into a motorway the A9 and A96 to give Inverness and the Highlands much needed boost. I would also like to see a proper motorway between Edinburgh and Newcastle that hooks up onto the M1.

I don't disagree about infrastructure investment, it's really needed, as I said in an earlier post we need a new line via Kinross to cut 30-40 minutes off the Edinburgh - Perth time. The A9 dualling is ongoing and I'd like to see it happening faster, but whilst a lot of it is relatively straightforward, there are some parts which are incredibly complex (e.g. Dunkeld) which will take years to complete. I think the deadline of 2025 will be missed, but I think the vast majority of it (>80%) will be done in that timescale.

The A1 is a shitshow, and needs both governments to agree on the investment. I doubt that'll happen the two of them will just bump heads. I'd like Scotrail to run more services to Newcastle and maybe York / Leeds but that would need a change to the licensing allowed for the Scotrail franchise.

I'd like the subsidies that are paid to renewables producers to be realigned so they don't include nuclear anymore (the old renewables obligation was ripped up and redefined specifically to give a vehicle to subsidise nuclear and delayed investment in renewables by several years, so any change would need to be done at speed so that the same delay doesn't happen again).

I disagree about the Northern Powerhouse investment though. It's peanuts compared to whats' done in the southeast. The definition of what qualifies as 'national infrastructure' is a fucking joke - widening the A13 in Kent was, so there's a contribution to that allocated to Scotland as apparently it's of benefit to us, but the Queensferry Crossing was local so all the cost is allocated to Scotland.

I would also like a bypass around Dundee whilst we are at it, the Kingsway is an almighty ballache and it might stop me getting speeding tickets on it.

[Jock42]

I would also like a bypass around Dundee whilst we are at it, the Kingsway is an almighty ballache and it might stop me getting speeding tickets on it.

Don't get me started on the Kingsway. There seems to be rumours every few months about a bypass.

[Tichtheid]

I don't think the SNP will garner as much support in an independent Scotland, the Labour vote collapsed due to Scottish Labour's ineptitude, but a rejuvenated party could do well. The Tories would be represented as well, unfortunately, and hopefully a Green vote would become viable along with other parties and independents.

If I were to make a wish list part of it would be for a functioning coalition government that represented the electorate and acted in their interest. (naïve? moi?)

I haven't really looked into the viability or demand for it, but it seems bonkers to me that Scotland doesn't have direct ferry links with the Scandi countries, it would take traffic off the roads and surely lessen delivery times, likewise for tourism.

[Jock42]

I don't think the SNP will garner as much support in an independent Scotland, the Labour vote collapsed due to Scottish Labour's ineptitude, but a rejuvenated party could do well. The Tories would be represented as well, unfortunately, and hopefully a Green vote would become viable along with other parties and independents.

If I were to make a wish list part of it would be for a functioning coalition government that represented the electorate and acted in their interest. (naïve? moi?)

I haven't really looked into the viability or demand for it, but it seems bonkers to me that Scotland doesn't have direct ferry links with the Scandi countries, it would take traffic off the roads and surely lessen delivery times, likewise for tourism.

Thats a long old ferry. I can't imagine there's that many goods needing moved between the countries to warrant that.

[Biffer]

Slick is right in that i am not idealogically opposed to Indy, if I felt this was the right course for our country to take and it wouldn't seriously impair our living standards I would be fully onboard with it, incidentally if we do vote for it next time I will look to make the best of it, I do caveat with that could mean leaving as by the best of it i am being very selfish and looking after my family's interests here.

What I worry about from what Tattie is saying is that sounds very similar to the shitshow that is Brexit, Farage etc campaigned for it under UKIP, delivered the result but is nowhere to be seen in actually having to implement it. So the empty rhetoric of easiest trade deal in history type guff simply doesnt stand up to reality and the same will be true of Independence. There is no credible plan for currency, central bank, deficit reduction etc etc, and all of this absolutely critical if we are to make a proper go of it and none of it is being seriously addressed. Andrew Wilson tried but has been drowned out because his plans aren't sunlit uplands, they are closer to reality but are still way too optomistic with respect to economic growth and hasnt addressed what we are actually going to have to cut.



Which is what i conceded with the decision had to be made at the time based on the facts that were presented to them, it was more an interesting development that does actually sound right that they can safely extend the life of the forth road bridge. The M74 incidentally was one of the most expensive roads going and the original budget was increased significantly : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924687 . Havent looked at the rest mostly because of laziness.

I don't think the Northern Powerhouse is quite the tokenism you think it is, they have made some significant moves such as moving the beeb out of London to Manchester and there is heavy investment going into the North. The crossrail project is being financed by extra charges on developers etc in London, no idea how close or otherwise that gets to filling the gap but i do agree that London has had a disproportionate share of infrastructure expenditure for too long now and there is certain things that annoy the shit out of me on that. Our rail network north of the central belt is shite and needs billions spent on it, equally they need to dual/make into a motorway the A9 and A96 to give Inverness and the Highlands much needed boost. I would also like to see a proper motorway between Edinburgh and Newcastle that hooks up onto the M1.

I don't disagree about infrastructure investment, it's really needed, as I said in an earlier post we need a new line via Kinross to cut 30-40 minutes off the Edinburgh - Perth time. The A9 dualling is ongoing and I'd like to see it happening faster, but whilst a lot of it is relatively straightforward, there are some parts which are incredibly complex (e.g. Dunkeld) which will take years to complete. I think the deadline of 2025 will be missed, but I think the vast majority of it (>80%) will be done in that timescale.

The A1 is a shitshow, and needs both governments to agree on the investment. I doubt that'll happen the two of them will just bump heads. I'd like Scotrail to run more services to Newcastle and maybe York / Leeds but that would need a change to the licensing allowed for the Scotrail franchise.

I'd like the subsidies that are paid to renewables producers to be realigned so they don't include nuclear anymore (the old renewables obligation was ripped up and redefined specifically to give a vehicle to subsidise nuclear and delayed investment in renewables by several years, so any change would need to be done at speed so that the same delay doesn't happen again).

I disagree about the Northern Powerhouse investment though. It's peanuts compared to whats' done in the southeast. The definition of what qualifies as 'national infrastructure' is a fucking joke - widening the A13 in Kent was, so there's a contribution to that allocated to Scotland as apparently it's of benefit to us, but the Queensferry Crossing was local so all the cost is allocated to Scotland.

I would also like a bypass around Dundee whilst we are at it, the Kingsway is an almighty ballache and it might stop me getting speeding tickets on it.

I'd also like to see the hovercraft / water buses idea across the Forth, and consider seaplane infrastructure to the highlands and islands. Most people's immeditate reaction to that is 'bah, weather', but if it works in Vancouver, it can work here.

The other bee in my bonnet is about investment in capital projects which promote high tech businesses. There are some things that have been done which help this, the Marine Energy Centre in Orkney, the Power Networks Demonstration Centre, but more can be done. There's a huge opportunity in offshore underwater data centres - there will be a lot of money to be made out of that and we're uniquely placed to do it. We're also very well equipped to develop and demonstrate novel high speed connectivity solutions to rural areas, which are massively exportable services and products. We have a unique ability to launch spacecraft from Europe as well, there's development of this but some of it has been massively mishandled (e.g. the first launch from the spaceport in Scotland will contain an US built satellite and payload on a US built rocket despite the fact that Glasgow builds more satellites than any other city in Europe every month and we have two domestic companies building rockets which will be ready on that timescale!).

[Tichtheid]

I don't think the SNP will garner as much support in an independent Scotland, the Labour vote collapsed due to Scottish Labour's ineptitude, but a rejuvenated party could do well. The Tories would be represented as well, unfortunately, and hopefully a Green vote would become viable along with other parties and independents.

If I were to make a wish list part of it would be for a functioning coalition government that represented the electorate and acted in their interest. (naïve? moi?)

I haven't really looked into the viability or demand for it, but it seems bonkers to me that Scotland doesn't have direct ferry links with the Scandi countries, it would take traffic off the roads and surely lessen delivery times, likewise for tourism.

Thats a long old ferry. I can't imagine there's that many goods needing moved between the countries to warrant that.

Would it be a longer journey in total than driving from, say, Perth to Hull or Dover to get the crossing over to Rotterdam and from there back up to Germany, Denmark, Sweden or wherever? Edinburgh to Copenhagen is almost half the distance as the crow flies as it is via the current transport system.

As I say it's something I haven't researched. It also depends on where our future trading partner would be, there is much talk of a northern European trading partnership.

[Northern Lights]

I'd also like to see the hovercraft / water buses idea across the Forth, and consider seaplane infrastructure to the highlands and islands. Most people's immeditate reaction to that is 'bah, weather', but if it works in Vancouver, it can work here.

The other bee in my bonnet is about investment in capital projects which promote high tech businesses. There are some things that have been done which help this, the Marine Energy Centre in Orkney, the Power Networks Demonstration Centre, but more can be done. There's a huge opportunity in offshore underwater data centres - there will be a lot of money to be made out of that and we're uniquely placed to do it. We're also very well equipped to develop and demonstrate novel high speed connectivity solutions to rural areas, which are massively exportable services and products. We have a unique ability to launch spacecraft from Europe as well, there's development of this but some of it has been massively mishandled (e.g. the first launch from the spaceport in Scotland will contain an US built satellite and payload on a US built rocket despite the fact that Glasgow builds more satellites than any other city in Europe every month and we have two domestic companies building rockets which will be ready on that timescale!).

Been a while since i've been in Vancouver but pretty sure they have better weather than us, happy to be corrected if not.