2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[weegie01]

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

I understand that is what you think, I do not understand why. I don't recall any discussion around the format having to be retained because of the SA teams, nor can I find anything with Google that suggests this.

I do not see any reason why the SA teams should have made any difference to the previous two seasons this format has been used (apart obviously form the travel). The loss of a weekend from 9 to 8 seems more significant to me as that restricts the options to change the format.

[LoveOfTheGame]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

Right, a few points from me. Firstly, you are coming across as a right bitter twat and want to put the blame for the demise of the HC at the feet of the saffas. I watched a very interesting podcast (The Good, The Bad, and the Rugby) where they discussed this very subject matter. As a saffa, it was very interesting to listen to them going on about how it went pear shaped in 2013/14 when the structure changed. Huge growth in revenue was promised and planned, yet they achieved only (by their accounts anyway) 1/2 of those projections. The title sponsor is contributing only around a 1/4 of what they were willing to pay back in the glory days of the HC. SA had nothing to do with any of these decisions. That's all on you, good job.

Yet here you are harping on about the SA this and the SA that. Travel blah blah blah. You mention below if you don't want to discuss something then don't read it. Well, if you don't want to travel to SA to see your team play, or can't afford it , then watch it on the bloody telly. The only thing the SA sides have done is added quality to the competition. We're also still trying to figure out how we will be attacking this beast. But as it stands all our teams have qualified. By playing rugby as best they can in new conditions and in new environments/stadia. For the most part it's been very good and exciting to play teams we never thought of playing. The clubs and fans have all been great. The group stage format is daft, but the business end of the HC is coming up and there will be some cracking games. Surely you are looking forward to that?

I understand completely the point of history and tradition. But as with everything in time, it all started somewhere. We can see already that the URC is a big success, it will grow from strength to strength. There is history and rivalries already being made as we speak. I personally miss the nostalgia of Soup rugby. I loved everything about it, Saturday morning games in NZ/Aus and big games in SA against some of the best franchise teams in the world. That ship has sailed and is gone. I cannot change that. So we have the URC, which at first I was pretty nervous about, but has now proven to be excellent. The cherry on the cake is the Champions Cup, if it does not work then hey at least we gave it a crack. But you can literally break off that finger you are pointing at us and go fuck yourself with it if you think we are to be blamed for the demise of the HC. That's all on you and your friends. Hopefully we can collectively make it a better comp. If not, no harm done.

[JM2K6]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

[OomStruisbaai]

Look like Cape Town Stadium do draw a lot of NH supporters. Newlands had all the tradition and culture but even a traditional like me have to move on. It's all history now even if I have a wet pantie like a woman.

[Sards]

Oh my word. What a shit show

[LoveOfTheGame]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

[dpedin]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

[JM2K6]

The SA teams accelerate the failure of the competition, that's the point. I understand that they are good sides. I also understand that you can't look beyond that.

I am surprised by your view on the 6N given how short a step it is now from SA Super Rugby franchises being in the Champions a Cup to SA being in the the 6N. The European competition existed in large part to be the on ramp to the 6N in the first place.

[JM2K6]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

[SaintK]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

[inactionman]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

The bolded section is incorrect.

The problem is that many clubs have a degree of reliance upon wealthy owners to bankroll - Bath, Bristol are two egregious examples but I also include Wray, Rowe etc. Worcester is the only case of asset stripping I'm aware of, Wasps of simple poor management, and London Welsh of excessive risk-taking. The problem is the exact opposite of asset stripping and grabbing owners - clubs are living close to or outside their bound of affordability, and if their backer decides to leave many could be in trouble. How long Bruce Craig, for example, throws money into Bath is anyone's guess - but he's anything but greedy.

But, yes, English rugby has the problem of privately owned ventures and a weak RFU, particularly at the dawn of professionalism.

I'm a bit lost as to how South African teams in the Euro competitions helps the above, it's simply a different set of teams.

[_Os_]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

We agree going for the knockouts for a single weekend isn't viable, and I haven't said otherwise in this thread at any point. What's then happening is you're refusing to say "you have a point if someone wants to combine a holiday with watching rugby, the cost of air travel goes down significantly" (which would've shortened this discussion), presumably this is what the few travelling fans we're seeing in SA are doing, sort of doubt the 100 or so Clermont away fans for the Stormers match on the weekend paid £2k in return tickets for a weekend trip.

[Paddington Bear]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

[LoveOfTheGame]

The SA teams accelerate the failure of the competition, that's the point. I understand that they are good sides. I also understand that you can't look beyond that.

I am surprised by your view on the 6N given how short a step it is now from SA Super Rugby franchises being in the Champions a Cup to SA being in the the 6N. The European competition existed in large part to be the on ramp to the 6N in the first place.

Erm no. The point is that it's failing. Anyway, let's see how this season goes ok?

I can handle most things, but not playing the AB's, Wallabies and Puma's in the RC would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me. If the Boks don't play in the RC and move to the 6N, I'd be done with rugby. It would ruin test rugby.

[JM2K6]

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

We agree going for the knockouts for a single weekend isn't viable, and I haven't said otherwise in this thread at any point. What's then happening is you're refusing to say "you have a point if someone wants to combine a holiday with watching rugby, the cost of air travel goes down significantly" (which would've shortened this discussion), presumably this is what the few travelling fans we're seeing in SA are doing, sort of doubt the 100 or so Clermont away fans for the Stormers match on the weekend paid £2k in return tickets for a weekend trip.

I think you've forgotten the comment I replied to originally that triggered this. Average Joe was talking about it as a short trip.

[Lobby]

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

'its all the fault of the English' is Dpedin's default response to every question under the sun, so its hardly a surprise he's come up with the same response here.

[Paddington Bear]

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

'its all the fault of the English' is Dpedin's default response to every question under the sun, so its hardly a surprise he's come up with the same response here.

There has been more than a hint of 'hand down the trousers' in some of the discussions about the Premiership of late

[PornDog]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

Same podcast I mentioned above discussed the apparent financial disparity between the French and English clubs, how the salary cap affects the English clubs, but not the French. From memory ROG did not agree with this view at all. What was interesting as well was that how the Premiership and T14 clubs prioritise the local comps. Basically boils down to if they are not good enough, then they don't bother with the HC really. Too much risk with injuring key players and losing out on competing for their applicable leagues. The T14 being such a marathon as well is the reason behind why they don't want to have more group stage matches. I also better understand now why Leinster picked their "b" team to tour SA last year, getting the mix right between the URC and HC will be no easy task for the SA sides. We will learn quickly enough I guess.

[weegie01]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

[_Os_]

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

My experience of similar discussions when SA was a fuller member of SANZAAR than it is now, is that it's going to go the opposite way and SA will fall out of this competition and only play URC (it seems we're wanted there?). Same with SA's multiple RWC bids that were independently rated as the best and failed each time. It doesn't actually matter what SA does it seems.

The progression is clearly towards Aussie levels anguish about us, they ended up essentially blaming us for Aussies not liking (real) rugby because of Super Rugby match times. That was their final gambit, that we were the blame for the demise of Australian rugby. Of course without us Australian rugby has now magically revived itself, this is why Eddie Moans will lead them through two RWCs and a Lions series, the same coach who lost the Wallaby job in 2005 in large part because of a 7 match losing run in which the Boks contributed 3 of those defeats.

LOTG's general point that's it's not our fault looks correct to me, the problems that necessitated us joining (basically a model predicated on leverage/debt when there's no further easy growth in Europe ... different to the Aussie/Super Rugby issue, which is "Aussie rugby types cannot admit their country doesn't like rugby much") remain after we're gone.

[westport]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

ETA It was on this

[sockwithaticket]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

[Paddington Bear]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

This happened with the 6N as well right? Too many execs seemingly unaware that they are running a minority sport

[westport]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

Thanks. I knew it was something like that but couldn't quite remember. They certainly screwed it up.

[SaintK]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

[sockwithaticket]

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

This happened with the 6N as well right? Too many execs seemingly unaware that they are running a minority sport

Yep and quite close together too. Real face palm moment for the sport.

[PornDog]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

I agree totally - there will most certainly be a financial contribution, either direct or via TV rights or both, but the thing is that we still have to just assume that because EPCR certainly wont be telling us about it.


Westport - indeed, listened to that myself (and prompted a thread on PR about the shitshow that is the current competition). I'd love to know Alex Payne's source on that, but would imagine it is someone at Heineken or an "off the record" source at EPCR. Certainly nothing official about it (and in fairness why would they - you're hardly going to announce how incompetent you are to the whole world now are you?)

[JM2K6]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

Same podcast I mentioned above discussed the apparent financial disparity between the French and English clubs, how the salary cap affects the English clubs, but not the French. From memory ROG did not agree with this view at all. What was interesting as well was that how the Premiership and T14 clubs prioritise the local comps. Basically boils down to if they are not good enough, then they don't bother with the HC really. Too much risk with injuring key players and losing out on competing for their applicable leagues. The T14 being such a marathon as well is the reason behind why they don't want to have more group stage matches. I also better understand now why Leinster picked their "b" team to tour SA last year, getting the mix right between the URC and HC will be no easy task for the SA sides. We will learn quickly enough I guess.

The salary cap is a necessary evil. I appreciate that for a long time a lot of English fans were pointing fingers at other countries ability to spend more and claiming it was unfair. On the face of it, it is unequal, but how we organise our game isn't anyone else's fault. The commercial, sporting, and social pressures are unique in each country and there's no use pretending we can have a truly equitable tournament, and certainly no use blaming anyone else for our own unique situation. Which, crucially, is why I don't do that. For the avoidance of doubt, I am also not blaming SA sides for anything other than their inclusion into the tournament and the negative effects of that. I don't see the fact that the tourmament was already damaged as a good reason to then damage the things the tournament still did well.

That is different to recognising the inequality inherent in the tournament, of course. The majority of fans support teams that have no real chance of winning the tournament, which is unhealthy, and it can lead to a disconnect between supporters of teams who regularly threaten the business end of the tournament with squads that can compete against everyone, and those who support teams that can mix it with the best on any given day with their first XV (the likes of Quins etc) that is rarely available and don't have the same level of squad depth, or simply don't (or can't) have a first XV that can match up to the big money sides. It's a totally different perspective and one of the reasons why, for example, supporters of Scottish sides might look at thing differently to supporters of English clubs, who will have a totally different view to that of Leinster fans, and then there's the French...

Sadly the people in charge largely look to football as their inspiration, because football has a ridiculous amount of money in the game. Hence shithouse format changes, everything being geared to squeezing the last penny out of people, trying to ensure the biggest draws have the least possible jeopardy, etc. But football and rugby are not the same, and none of these money-blinded idiots can accept that.

As for Premiership prioritising the local comps - that's untrue. For the Champions Cup at least, it's very rare for a team to not put out their best side unless it's the tail end of the group stage and they're already out or are in an extreme scenario regarding injuries etc. We're not the French. Given that I would actually prefer it if we sacked off Europe sometimes because of the insane grind of the season, I find it weird that people are claiming it's something we do. It ain't a thing. I suspect some of this comes from ROG looking at weakened teams and thinking it's a deliberate action when he's just unaware of a glut of injuries.

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

[sockwithaticket]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

[LoveOfTheGame]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

[OomStruisbaai]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

SA dont get any TV money until 2025. SARU pay our franchises travelling cost. That's our price to play in the competition and the reason why we have to fly Quatar and took up to 50 hours to get to Glasgow. It cost SARU R400 million

[weegie01]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

Why is it dodgy? The Italians did the same when they joined.

[SaintK]

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

Why is it dodgy? The Italians did the same when they joined.

Sorry, replied to PornDogs post not yours. See bolded sentence.

[JM2K6]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

[PornDog]

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

That all sounds pretty dodgy

Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

<Sorry Saint, have rearranged this to make it clearer>

It's dodgy as fuck! This was why many people strongly objected to moving the HQ from Dublin to Switzerland in the first place - even leaving aside the ludicrous insinuated accusation of some sort of pro Irish corruption - It was obvious that transparency would disappear completely.

I assume all of the participating Unions/Leagues would be party to all the details as they are the stakeholders, but given the overall lack on info that's probably done under NDAs. It's all gone very FIFA in its shadyness.


As for your second line, of course they will be getting SA TV monies (it might even rival the Welsh), but we've next to zero chance of finding out anything about it. (Actually, SA might prove to be a better source of leaks for this sort of info going forward - if that's not too bold to suggest)

[PornDog]

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when discussing things with you lot

You finally have some rivals in your obstinacy *


* Yes this is unfair, no I don't care

[JM2K6]

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when discussing things with you lot

You finally have some rivals in your obstinacy *


* Yes this is unfair, no I don't care

I actually agree with you. The arguments over Europe on PR 5-10 years ago were insanely frustrating. Making a valid point and having an actual discussion was impossible because the well was so comprehensively poisoned.

[LoveOfTheGame]

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

I realise us being in the comp is eating you up on the inside, but try not to let it fester. Makes you come across as bit grumpy and moody.

[JM2K6]

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

I realise us being in the comp is eating you up on the inside, but try not to let it fester. Makes you come across as bit grumpy and moody.

lol caring about things is for suckers!!!