Where are you on the whole gender thing?

[Random1]

Interesting one today. When I was picking the kids up from school there was a couple of middle aged ladies handing out leaflets by the gates. The leaflets were inviting people to a meeting to discuss trans information given at schools and discuss if it was appropriate. The leaflet said that they appreciate it is a sensitive subject and asked people to allow a discussion and use respectful language.

Anyway, just had a message from the school in a WhatsApp message apologising for the “politically motivated leaflets that are hateful towards a segment of the population” and telling any families affected to contact the school for support. The WhatsApp group has gone off with people screaming transphobia and hate crimes.

I thought the leaflet was actually pretty respectful but I did tell the ladies they shouldn’t be handing them out by the school gates. It’s all a bit over the top

Where else would someone hand out leaflets about school lessons other than at a school?

Feels reasonable to me.

People supporting the trans ideology really need to discuss it a bit more. I think they’d start to see the contradictions fairly quickly once they actually talked about it.

[Tichtheid]

The GRA is, in essence, self ID without medicalisation ( a pledge Theresa May made in 2017 btw, saying trans is not an illness and shouldn't be treated is such).

Many who support the act refuse to accept the way the debate has been framed by reactionaries, that the reason to object is to protect women and children. The fact that most of the single-sex areas issues are covered by the 2010 Equality Act doesn't really matter, it would seem.

Imagine for a minute that black people were told that they cannot be considered in equal terms as the general population because they are potential rapists and paedophiles - this is why many trans people will not engage with the debate in the way it has been constructed.

[Slick]

Police at the gates today to protect us all from 2 middle aged women handing out leaflets.

[robmatic]

The GRA is, in essence, self ID without medicalisation ( a pledge Theresa May made in 2017 btw, saying trans is not an illness and shouldn't be treated is such).

Many who support the act refuse to accept the way the debate has been framed by reactionaries, that the reason to object is to protect women and children. The fact that most of the single-sex areas issues are covered by the 2010 Equality Act doesn't really matter, it would seem.

Imagine for a minute that black people were told that they cannot be considered in equal terms as the general population because they are potential rapists and paedophiles - this is why many trans people will not engage with the debate in the way it has been constructed.

Obviously the right wing grooming hysteria is nonsense, but there is no escaping that all men are potential rapists.

With regard to self ID, I don't really care how people choose to present themselves, but the GRA is basically giving legal weight to a whole bunch of antiquated stereotypes that not everyone agrees with. With self ID, you state that you are living in your acquired gender, but what does that even mean? I saw an explanation that for a trans woman this would involve having a feminine name and wearing dresses and make up - none of that applies to my wife, so she is apparently not 'living in her gender'. Is she unknowingly a trans man or something?

[Random1]

The GRA is, in essence, self ID without medicalisation ( a pledge Theresa May made in 2017 btw, saying trans is not an illness and shouldn't be treated is such).

Many who support the act refuse to accept the way the debate has been framed by reactionaries, that the reason to object is to protect women and children. The fact that most of the single-sex areas issues are covered by the 2010 Equality Act doesn't really matter, it would seem.

Imagine for a minute that black people were told that they cannot be considered in equal terms as the general population because they are potential rapists and paedophiles - this is why many trans people will not engage with the debate in the way it has been constructed.

Single sex spaces would not be protected by the equality act because the trans people would be women and therefore entitled to be in the space. That’s precisely why Westminster is stopping the Scottish law.

And the black person example is not an equivalent. An equivalent would be a 25 year old identifying as a 13 year old and being allowed to go back to school. It doesn’t mean they’re a rapist, but the 13 year olds are going to feel uncomfortable with the situation and there is an increased risk to them.

[Random1]

The GRA is, in essence, self ID without medicalisation ( a pledge Theresa May made in 2017 btw, saying trans is not an illness and shouldn't be treated is such).

Many who support the act refuse to accept the way the debate has been framed by reactionaries, that the reason to object is to protect women and children. The fact that most of the single-sex areas issues are covered by the 2010 Equality Act doesn't really matter, it would seem.

Imagine for a minute that black people were told that they cannot be considered in equal terms as the general population because they are potential rapists and paedophiles - this is why many trans people will not engage with the debate in the way it has been constructed.

Obviously the right wing grooming hysteria is nonsense, but there is no escaping that all men are potential rapists.

With regard to self ID, I don't really care how people choose to present themselves, but the GRA is basically giving legal weight to a whole bunch of antiquated stereotypes that not everyone agrees with. With self ID, you state that you are living in your acquired gender, but what does that even mean? I saw an explanation that for a trans woman this would involve having a feminine name and wearing dresses and make up - none of that applies to my wife, so she is apparently not 'living in her gender'. Is she unknowingly a trans man or something?

Precisely. The trans lobby and their allies are trying to change the definition of man and woman without wrapping their head around the contradiction inherent to that position: if gender is a social construct, then are effeminate blokes women and non- feminine women blokes? Plus, if it’s all a social construct, then how can anyone justify transitioning kids to match that social construct.

It’s just a bundle of illogical nonsense.

[Tichtheid]

GRA Frequently asked questions


https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

[Random1]

GRA Frequently asked questions


https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

It’s all opinion being stated as fact. Pretty much the only fact that matters that there are two sexes and you can’t switch between them.

If you feel like a different gender, then fine, but the hurdle needs to be high in order to prevent predators just playing the system. If it’s a medical issue, then doctors should decide if there’s a genuine case of gender dysphoria.

[Tichtheid]

GRA Frequently asked questions


https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

It’s all opinion being stated as fact.

100% wrong

and you wonder why people are reluctant to debate the issue?

[Random1]

GRA Frequently asked questions


https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

It’s all opinion being stated as fact.

100% wrong

and you wonder why people are reluctant to debate the issue?

Can you explain where I’m wrong please?

[Tichtheid]

It’s all opinion being stated as fact.

100% wrong

and you wonder why people are reluctant to debate the issue?

Can you explain where I’m wrong please?

Perhaps this would be better served by you explaining which of the FAQs is opinion as opposed to fact.

You said it was "all opinion"

Take it a couple at a time if you like;

What is the Gender Recognition Act?
The Gender Recognition Act (GRA) is a law that allows trans men and women who fulfil certain requirements to change the sex listed on their birth certificate. The sex on a person’s birth certificate is sometimes referred to as their “legal sex”.
For a fuller explanation, click here

What does it do?
Practically, the GRA allows trans men and women to apply for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) which they can use to change the sex on their birth certificate.
Trans people can legally change their sex without a GRC on other documents such as their passport and drivers licence, but not their birth certificate, which is required in some circumstances such as obtaining a pension or when getting married.

[BnM]

Convicted of rape of two women today in Scotland https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... n-man.html



First appeared in court as Adam Graham but stood trial as woman Isla Bryson 



It is understood Bryson is being held in a segregation unit at Cornton Vale women's prison, where the attacker will be risk assessed ahead of sentencing to see where she will serve her term.

Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... s-25840252

[Slick]

I know, I know, but that’s a fucking funny photo

[Random1]

100% wrong

and you wonder why people are reluctant to debate the issue?

Can you explain where I’m wrong please?

Perhaps this would be better served by you explaining which of the FAQs is opinion as opposed to fact.

You said it was "all opinion"

Take it a couple at a time if you like;

What is the Gender Recognition Act?
The Gender Recognition Act (GRA) is a law that allows trans men and women who fulfil certain requirements to change the sex listed on their birth certificate. The sex on a person’s birth certificate is sometimes referred to as their “legal sex”.
For a fuller explanation, click here

What does it do?
Practically, the GRA allows trans men and women to apply for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) which they can use to change the sex on their birth certificate.
Trans people can legally change their sex without a GRC on other documents such as their passport and drivers licence, but not their birth certificate, which is required in some circumstances such as obtaining a pension or when getting married.

Let’s start on paragraph 3

Why does the GRA need to change?
While it is good that trans men and women can use the GRA to change their legal sex, the process to do so is long, complicated, and expensive.
There are many arbitrary requirements for acquiring a GRC which many trans people will not be able to meet for perfectly legitimate reasons that are no fault of their own. This can mean that some people trans people are unable to retire when they planned to, or are even recorded as the wrong gender on their death certificate.
Many trans people, such as non-binary people and trans people under 18, are also excluded from having their legal sex recognised by the act.
In short, the act is now out of step with international best practice for gender recognition, and goes against the guidance of human rights groups like Amnesty International and the WHO.
For a fuller explanation of the current issues with the GRA, click here

It litterally says it’s good. Is that not an opinion? The fact that the law allows the conflation of gender and sex is actually not a good thing in many people’s opinion. It’s actually one of the fundamental reasons for a lot of the difficulties in the discussion.

It goes on to say some trans people can’t meet some of the requirements and that these are perfectly legitimate. Another opinion.

It also assumes that people under 18 can be classed as trans. Again, this is an opinion, as there is still a debate to be had as to whether someone under 18 is mature enough to make this decision. There are also significant consequences for non-trans people in lowering the age to 16 - so for the question to be answered like this is a good reason to change the law is an opinion.

Hope that helps.

[Random1]

Convicted of rape of two women today in Scotland https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... n-man.html



First appeared in court as Adam Graham but stood trial as woman Isla Bryson 



It is understood Bryson is being held in a segregation unit at Cornton Vale women's prison, where the attacker will be risk assessed ahead of sentencing to see where she will serve her term.

Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... s-25840252

Thankfully in this case, the witnesses recorded a video, but in a case in 2018 a complainant was instructed to call the biological man ‘she’ in court whilst the complainant described the assault.

I hate it when the world conspires to make daily mail readers right when they say ‘the world’s gone mad’

[BnM]

I know, I know, but that’s a fucking funny photo

That's how they went to court for their rape trial.

[Tichtheid]

@ Random

You dismissed the entire article as “ all opinion stated as fact”

I don’t think you are acting in good faith

That is my opinion

[Slick]

I know, I know, but that’s a fucking funny photo

That's how they went to court for their rape trial.

Yup. And the serious point being that a bloke who is obviously mentally unwell and taking the piss now has the right to women only spaces.

[Random1]

@ Random

You dismissed the entire article as “ all opinion stated as fact”

I don’t think you are acting in good faith

That is my opinion

Shall we go to the next question then

“Will it affect single sex spaces and services?
No, as trans people without a gender recognition certificate can already use single-sex spaces, such as toilets and changing rooms, which align with their gender. The Equality Act 2010, and not the GRA, set out the legal arrangements for how single-sex spaces and services operate, and changes to the GRA will not affect these.
The Equality Act 2010 starts from the position that trans people, with or without gender recognition certificates, can access services and spaces which align with their gender. Trans women can use female-only spaces and services, and trans men can use male-only spaces and services. However, there are exceptions which allow single-sex services to treat trans people less favourably than other people if their particular circumstances mean that’s necessary and proportionate. A service provider can exclude any person (trans or not) if they behave badly.
These arrangements also apply to single-sex services such as prisons, gender based violence services such as domestic abuse refuges, and single-sex wards. There are nothing in the Scottish Government proposals that would change this.”

This is an opinion. It is precisely the legal opinion that Westminster disagrees with.

And another question

“Will it affect the rights of others?
No, reform to the GRA is simply about improving trans people’s access to legal recognition of their gender, and won’t affect the rights of any other group
While obtaining a GRC is personally important to many trans people, it only has a very limited number of uses as birth certificates are rarely used as identity documents in everyday life.”

Again, another opinion. How on earth do they know it won’t affect others?

I’m not doing anything in bad faith.

[Random1]

I know, I know, but that’s a fucking funny photo

Would

[Tichtheid]

Here is the Scottish Government’s opinion of what the bill is.
It’a apparently only an opinion so can be dismissed at will

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
The Bill changes the process to get a gender recognition certificate (GRC).

It is the same as in the FAQs earlier

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-l ... tland-bill

This thread’s latest posts have proved my earlier point as to why trans people are reluctant to get into this debate,

[Random1]

Here is the Scottish Government’s opinion of what the bill is.
It’a apparently only an opinion so can be dismissed at will

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
The Bill changes the process to get a gender recognition certificate (GRC).

It is the same as in the FAQs earlier

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-l ... tland-bill

This thread’s latest posts have proved my earlier point as to why trans people are reluctant to get into this debate,

And that’s the critical point. You agree it’s opinion, but anyone disagreeing with that opinion is to be dismissed and debate avoided.

Did you watch the video I posted earlier in the thread?

She points out that this is an ideology of faith, as it holds a fair bit of irrationality and it doesn’t tolerate those that disagree.

[Tichtheid]

You need a better sarcasm radar

I don’t agree that a government bill is merely opinion ffs

[Random1]

You need a better sarcasm radar

I don’t agree that a government bill is merely opinion ffs

In a parliamentary democracy, all law is opinion. It crystallises the opinion on how best to manage a given situation.

[Tichtheid]

The FAQs I posted sets out what the Gender Recognition Bill is and describes how the new law interacts with an existing law, The Equalities Act 2010.

Some linguistic gymnastics now state that laws are merely opinions, by focusing on the adjective "good" rather than the statement itself. If a mechanic tells you that "your car has passed the MOT, so that's good", it doesn't reduce the passing of the test to mere opinion. If a doctor tells you "The results are good, you don't have (inset terminal disease of choice)", that's not mere opinion.

Faux reasonableness doesn't hide a reactionary agenda, anyone is entitled to push whatever agenda they wish btw, but when someone refuses to enter into a debate framed along the lines of the infamous, "When did you stop beating your wife?", don't mistake non-participation as being due to your own killer arguments.

[Calculon]

[Slick]

So he’s (it’s a scam, I’m not using she) been moved to a male prison. Where does this leave the SG bill?

It’s actually a serious question, has it failed at the very first hurdle, or was there provision for this type of thing?

[Tichtheid]

was there provision for this type of thing?

A convicted trans person goes to a prison of the choosing of a panel, this has been the case for a while now.

[Slick]

was there provision for this type of thing?

A convicted trans person goes to a prison of the choosing of a panel, this has been the case for a while now.

What the point of the new law then if a panel can decide they are not a woman after all?

[Tichtheid]

was there provision for this type of thing?

A convicted trans person goes to a prison of the choosing of a panel, this has been the case for a while now.

What the point of the new law then if a panel can decide they are not a woman after all?

The new bill in Scotland did little more than make it easier to get your birth certificate changed, though you'd think the sky was falling due to some of the reaction to it.

[Dogbert]

The point of the law is to make the whole Trans process easier for Trans people

At the moment, the UK has some of the most restrictive gender recognition processes in Europe.
For comparison, countries like Portugal, Ireland, and Norway have passed laws in the last few years that made it possible for trans people to obtain legal recognition of their gender using self-determination only.

Campaigners in the UK argue that the lengthy process to get a GRC puts unnecessary strain on the NHS, due to the required involvement of multiple practitioners, and requires too many invasive medical examinations.
In November 2017, the Scottish government began formally reviewing the GRA “so that it is in line with international best practice”. In the Ministerial Foreword to the review, it was acknowledged that the GRA (2004) was “out of date” and places “intrusive and onerous” requirements on the applicant.

The Scottish government therefore went on to propose eliminating the requirement to provide medical evidence and proof of living in the ‘acquired gender’ for two years before applying.
In 2018, a public consultation was held across the UK which gathered over 100,000 responses. It found that 64% of people who contributed believed the requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be removed, 80% supported the removal of the requirement for a medical report detailing all treatment, and 79% called for the removal of the requirement for individuals to provide evidence of having lived in their ‘acquired gender’ for a period of time.

Some of the opposition to amending the GRA is grounded in the concern that such reform could lead to the removal of single-sex services or women-only spaces. However, such spaces would still be protected separately through the Equality Act 2010.
The Equality Act protects the rights of women to access single-sex services. In addition, the provision which allows organisations to treat trans people differently does not hinge on whether the trans person has a GRC or not.
To that extent, for sports teams or single-sex services where there is consideration of excluding trans people, they will still have the right to do so under the Equality Act which will not be affected by GRA reform.

[Sandstorm]

was there provision for this type of thing?

A convicted trans person goes to a prison of the choosing of a panel, this has been the case for a while now.

What the point of the new law then if a panel can decide they are not a woman after all?

If anyone commits a crime, they lose some rights. Maybe a convicted trans person should lose the right to choose who they want to be locked up with?

[Calculon]

Seems rather contradictory. You're now legally a woman but please don't think you can access any women's services or women's spaces. They're reserved for, you know, actual women.

[Slick]

A convicted trans person goes to a prison of the choosing of a panel, this has been the case for a while now.

What the point of the new law then if a panel can decide they are not a woman after all?

The new bill in Scotland did little more than make it easier to get your birth certificate changed, though you'd think the sky was falling due to some of the reaction to it.

Same question

[Slick]

The point of the law is to make the whole Trans process easier for Trans people

At the moment, the UK has some of the most restrictive gender recognition processes in Europe.
For comparison, countries like Portugal, Ireland, and Norway have passed laws in the last few years that made it possible for trans people to obtain legal recognition of their gender using self-determination only.

Campaigners in the UK argue that the lengthy process to get a GRC puts unnecessary strain on the NHS, due to the required involvement of multiple practitioners, and requires too many invasive medical examinations.
In November 2017, the Scottish government began formally reviewing the GRA “so that it is in line with international best practice”. In the Ministerial Foreword to the review, it was acknowledged that the GRA (2004) was “out of date” and places “intrusive and onerous” requirements on the applicant.

The Scottish government therefore went on to propose eliminating the requirement to provide medical evidence and proof of living in the ‘acquired gender’ for two years before applying.
In 2018, a public consultation was held across the UK which gathered over 100,000 responses. It found that 64% of people who contributed believed the requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be removed, 80% supported the removal of the requirement for a medical report detailing all treatment, and 79% called for the removal of the requirement for individuals to provide evidence of having lived in their ‘acquired gender’ for a period of time.

Some of the opposition to amending the GRA is grounded in the concern that such reform could lead to the removal of single-sex services or women-only spaces. However, such spaces would still be protected separately through the Equality Act 2010.
The Equality Act protects the rights of women to access single-sex services. In addition, the provision which allows organisations to treat trans people differently does not hinge on whether the trans person has a GRC or not.
To that extent, for sports teams or single-sex services where there is consideration of excluding trans people, they will still have the right to do so under the Equality Act which will not be affected by GRA reform.

You’ve just cut and pasted that from the Guardian

[Tichtheid]

What the point of the new law then if a panel can decide they are not a woman after all?

The new bill in Scotland did little more than make it easier to get your birth certificate changed, though you'd think the sky was falling due to some of the reaction to it.

Same question

The practicalities of the changes are set out in the FAQs I posted on the previous page.

On a day to day basis it affects things like pension arrangements and payments, death certificates etc - things non-trans people take for granted, it's about equality

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

[Dogbert]

I believe of the main issues in the UK is the time it takes in England & Wales for the current NHS waiting lists

NHS Clinic & Location NHS Waiting List Time
The Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health (Nottingham) 37-41 months
Leeds & York Partnership GIS (Leeds) 37-43 Months
Exeter (The Laurels) 60 Months
Belfast 47 Months
Sheffield (Porterbrook) 39 Months
Newcastle 39 Months
Northhampton (Daventry) 43 Months
Edinburgh 31 Months
Glasgow (Sandyford) 37 Months

Also as far as the current legal case is concerned - the correct decison has been made - historically not something that can be said of occurences in other parts of the UK , even with the more presciptive Trans gender laws, where a Trans Rapist in England was sent to a female prison, invloving in Sexual assault within the female prison

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... d-for-life

[Slick]

The new bill in Scotland did little more than make it easier to get your birth certificate changed, though you'd think the sky was falling due to some of the reaction to it.

Same question

The practicalities of the changes are set out in the FAQs I posted on the previous page.

On a day to day basis it affects things like pension arrangements and payments, death certificates etc - things non-trans people take for granted, it's about equality

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

The FAQ’s you keep leaning on don’t seem to cover when public opinion changes implementation

[Paddington Bear]

We all know this bloke is/was bullshitting us, isn’t this exactly what we were told would definitely never happen?
Laws have to operate on the level of society’s shittest people sadly

[Tichtheid]

Same question

The practicalities of the changes are set out in the FAQs I posted on the previous page.

On a day to day basis it affects things like pension arrangements and payments, death certificates etc - things non-trans people take for granted, it's about equality

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/ ... 2/gra-faq/

The FAQ’s you keep leaning on don’t seem to cover when public opinion changes implementation

ffs, I was merely answering your fucking question as to what the point of the bill was.

There's no need to be a wanker about it.