Welsh player strike

[C69]

The Welsh cobbling together four professional sides out of nothing closely echoes the Scottish attempt at constructing a viable pro team in the Borders. The Reivers played in the early days of the Celtic league, but it soon became clear that the good people of Melrose and Galashiels had no interest whatsoever in rooting for players from the next town. Probably thanks to the Murrayfield debt, the SRU closed the team down when it had to and avoided a situation the WRU now finds itself in.

Having said that, Scotland missed the boat of professional high-performance for close to 20 years (in no small part down to the amateur blazer brigade that ran the SRU, was fiercely opposed to any form of remuneration for players including them having to pay for their own replacement jerseys, and was generally clueless about professional sports) while the Welsh had some great success in that time.

I sincerely hope Wales are not at the start of their own 20 years of misery induced by poor governance.

There used to be 5 pro teams in Wales.
There are no pro teams representing the Valleys tbh

[Brazil]

I'd think the RFU would also have struggled with this, if it needed to go to a regional model. (God knows they struggle with everything else)

Just picking up on this - at the start of professionalism the RFU could have very easily made a regional model work as it already existed in the structure of the English game (the North famously beating the All Blacks in 1979 and so on). Unfortunately they decided to wash their hands entirely of the thorny issue of professionalism, leaving the clubs and a generation of new owners to take it on. The consequence, after a wild west period of a number of teams dropping like stones or disappearing altogether, was the uneven structure that's only just beginning to be sorted out today, unlike in Ireland where the model was sustained to the national side's benefit. Brian Moore, Carling, and a number of other players had warned the RFU that professionalism was coming whether they liked it or not, and proposed a new model for the English game, but the RFU secretary at the time didn't want to hear it.

[CM11]

Celtic Warriors?

They weren't a bad side and if memory serves had a bit more support than the Dragons but I guess the face didn't fit.

Anyway, back to the strike, I'm struggling to understand why Gatland is a baddie in all this. Surely naming a side would have put more pressure on the named players?

[SaintK]

I'd think the RFU would also have struggled with this, if it needed to go to a regional model. (God knows they struggle with everything else)

Just picking up on this - at the start of professionalism the RFU could have very easily made a regional model work as it already existed in the structure of the English game (the North famously beating the All Blacks in 1979 and so on). Unfortunately they decided to wash their hands entirely of the thorny issue of professionalism, leaving the clubs and a generation of new owners to take it on. The consequence, after a wild west period of a number of teams dropping like stones or disappearing altogether, was the uneven structure that's only just beginning to be sorted out today, unlike in Ireland where the model was sustained to the national side's benefit. Brian Moore, Carling, and a number of other players had warned the RFU that professionalism was coming whether they liked it or not, and proposed a new model for the English game, but the RFU secretary at the time didn't want to hear it.

Dudley Wood and Dennis Easby were the chief old farts at the time!!!

[Brazil]

I'd think the RFU would also have struggled with this, if it needed to go to a regional model. (God knows they struggle with everything else)

Just picking up on this - at the start of professionalism the RFU could have very easily made a regional model work as it already existed in the structure of the English game (the North famously beating the All Blacks in 1979 and so on). Unfortunately they decided to wash their hands entirely of the thorny issue of professionalism, leaving the clubs and a generation of new owners to take it on. The consequence, after a wild west period of a number of teams dropping like stones or disappearing altogether, was the uneven structure that's only just beginning to be sorted out today, unlike in Ireland where the model was sustained to the national side's benefit. Brian Moore, Carling, and a number of other players had warned the RFU that professionalism was coming whether they liked it or not, and proposed a new model for the English game, but the RFU secretary at the time didn't want to hear it.

Dudley Wood and Dennis Easby were the chief old farts at the time!!!

That's them, couldn't remember their names. Moore was very damning of Wood.

[Biffer]

The Welsh cobbling together four professional sides out of nothing closely echoes the Scottish attempt at constructing a viable pro team in the Borders. The Reivers played in the early days of the Celtic league, but it soon became clear that the good people of Melrose and Galashiels had no interest whatsoever in rooting for players from the next town. Probably thanks to the Murrayfield debt, the SRU closed the team down when it had to and avoided a situation the WRU now finds itself in.

Having said that, Scotland missed the boat of professional high-performance for close to 20 years (in no small part down to the amateur blazer brigade that ran the SRU, was fiercely opposed to any form of remuneration for players including them having to pay for their own replacement jerseys, and was generally clueless about professional sports) while the Welsh had some great success in that time.

I sincerely hope Wales are not at the start of their own 20 years of misery induced by poor governance.

We also upgraded Murrayfield at just the wrong time and had a massive debt to service just when we needed to start paying players. Think it was all funded by the SRU as well, no government / lottery / whatever to help either.

[Tichtheid]

(in no small part down to the amateur blazer brigade that ran the SRU, was fiercely opposed to any form of remuneration for players including them having to pay for their own replacement jerseys, and was generally clueless about professional sports)

Those same blazers, or some of them, had no such compunction over grabbing as many free tickets for international games as they could put their hands on - hundreds at a time - and giving them to clients as a way of punting for sales and other investment for their own businesses.

There a quote in Geech's book about what sickened him wrt to the SRU at that time, he overheard one such blazer say, "I am the Milkman, I milk the SRU for everything I can get"

To be clear, they weren't making money for the SRU or clubs, they were quite okay abut making money out of the game for themselves, the bastards, just as long as players and coaches didn't get paid.

[SaintK]

Just picking up on this - at the start of professionalism the RFU could have very easily made a regional model work as it already existed in the structure of the English game (the North famously beating the All Blacks in 1979 and so on). Unfortunately they decided to wash their hands entirely of the thorny issue of professionalism, leaving the clubs and a generation of new owners to take it on. The consequence, after a wild west period of a number of teams dropping like stones or disappearing altogether, was the uneven structure that's only just beginning to be sorted out today, unlike in Ireland where the model was sustained to the national side's benefit. Brian Moore, Carling, and a number of other players had warned the RFU that professionalism was coming whether they liked it or not, and proposed a new model for the English game, but the RFU secretary at the time didn't want to hear it.

Dudley Wood and Dennis Easby were the chief old farts at the time!!!

That's them, couldn't remember their names. Moore was very damning of Wood.

Dennis Easby was our next door neighbour when my family lived in Reading in the late 1960's.
Nice bloke, but a bit of an old fogie. Got to the top of the RFU old farts tree via the Berkshire County Referees Society. Don't think he ever played the game?

[JM2K6]

Interesting to break those attendance figures down a little - Quins rely on big occasions to up their average, two games at Twickenham accounted for nearly half their total attendance, it's a bit disappointing they don't manage to convert some of those fans into regulars at the Stoop.

Unless Quins implement a seat-sharing system, I'm not certain exactly what the problem is here. Quins sell out the Stoop for most matches, really the only time it's not a sellout is if there's a significant reason like apocalyptic weather or major train delays & strikes (both of which we've had this season). The biggest problem is trying to increase the capacity.

[inactionman]

Interesting to break those attendance figures down a little - Quins rely on big occasions to up their average, two games at Twickenham accounted for nearly half their total attendance, it's a bit disappointing they don't manage to convert some of those fans into regulars at the Stoop.

Unless Quins implement a seat-sharing system, I'm not certain exactly what the problem is here. Quins sell out the Stoop for most matches, really the only time it's not a sellout is if there's a significant reason like apocalyptic weather or major train delays & strikes (both of which we've had this season). The biggest problem is trying to increase the capacity.

Bath is similar, and it's a nice problem to have.

[JM2K6]

Just on the topic of professional rugby in England, if you guys haven't read John Kingston's pieces on what happened to Richmond, you should:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 18638.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 20495.html

[Tichtheid]

Just on the topic of professional rugby in England, if you guys haven't read John Kingston's pieces on what happened to Richmond, you should:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 18638.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 20495.html

That's a terribly sad read

[weegie01]

The SRU spent £21M on pro rugby last year, that was over the two teams, we are good payers apparently, but Wales will be looking at at double that expenditure with the four sides, having said that, isn't there private ownership, at least in part, of three of the sides?

The SRU are competitive payers at the top end, but become less competitive the lower down the talent scale you go.

From what you've said you know pro players, are we not competitive at the lower level across the board, or just with the likes of Ireland?

From what I have seen posted, Scotland and Ireland are fairly similar in what younger players are paid. I can't recall whether it was here or the or the place, but figures posted by Irish posters for younger players were roundly mocked as unrealistic by other posters (mostly English I think). But they were in line with what I know players at the referenced levels get in Scotland. There have certainly been academy players playing U21 for Scotland but based in England and France earning more than full pros here, and in one case more than a first cap would get.

But if the SRU feel we really need a player in a particular position, they get what they need to be paid to keep / bring them in.

I would sum it as the SRU (and possibly IRFU) use the fact that they are monopoly employers to keep wages low for players who really do not have an alternative employer, but then pay full market rates for those who have a value to any club, anywhere (except for the bonkers deals like Russell).

This is based in a very narrow base of information.

[Jim Lahey]

What is the going rate for a young player, aged say 23 and under? 2nd or 3rd choice for his region/province/club. Solid player but not good enough to be in the conversation for international honours.

[Sandstorm]

What is the going rate for a young player, aged say 23 and under? 2nd or 3rd choice for his region/province/club. Solid player but not good enough to be in the conversation for international honours.

150,000 South African Rands

[Brazil]

Just on the topic of professional rugby in England, if you guys haven't read John Kingston's pieces on what happened to Richmond, you should:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 18638.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 20495.html

I'd forgotten about Ashley Levett. What a charmer.

[PlanetGlyndwr]

Gatland is a known narcissist which makes it very funny now since he's clearly over the hill and a relic of yesterday's game.

[tabascoboy]

Well, they must have been discussing this for hours now - my bet is on a fudge that will allow the match to go ahead...

[fishfoodie]

Well, they must have been discussing this for hours now - my bet is on a fudge that will allow the match to go ahead...

It might make some sense, but this is the point of maximum pressure for the players, & they've endured 18 months of the WRU fucking about with their lives, so they might be a bit sick of it !

[Jim Lahey]

Should be out practicing their lineouts.

Or maybe this is all just the ultimate mind game from Gats?

[tabascoboy]

Well, they must have been discussing this for hours now - my bet is on a fudge that will allow the match to go ahead...

It might make some sense, but this is the point of maximum pressure for the players, & they've endured 18 months of the WRU fucking about with their lives, so they might be a bit sick of it !

Well the fact that it's taking a long time with no-one walking out quickly suggests at least that there is some serious negotiation going on. Maybe not all issues might get completely resolved today.

[fishfoodie]

Should be out practicing their lineouts.

Or maybe this is all just the ultimate mind game from Gats?

Exclusive footage of Gats motivating the players

[SaintK]

What amazes me is that Gatland appears not to have done any due diligence into what was going on with the WRU before accepting the job again

[fishfoodie]

What amazes me is that Gatland appears not to have done any due diligence into what was going on with the WRU before accepting the job again

He saw the £££££££££s, & thought to himself; "How bad could it be ?"

[Camroc2]

As a natural pessimist, I can definitely see England losing. I can see Wales being fired up rather than caught cold

Yeah - what's the chance our team end up being more distracted by this than the Welsh team?! And with France & Ireland to come, this could end up being a horrible run in to the end of the 6N (following a horrible start!) Borthwick then gets the boot and the only coach available for hire is Pivac...

I think England could do well with the current Bath coach, I'm sure Bath wouldn't stand in his way.
A Saffer who understands forward play, and excels in truck it up centres.

Do it. Please ?

[Camroc2]

The Welsh cobbling together four professional sides out of nothing closely echoes the Scottish attempt at constructing a viable pro team in the Borders. The Reivers played in the early days of the Celtic league, but it soon became clear that the good people of Melrose and Galashiels had no interest whatsoever in rooting for players from the next town. Probably thanks to the Murrayfield debt, the SRU closed the team down when it had to and avoided a situation the WRU now finds itself in.

Having said that, Scotland missed the boat of professional high-performance for close to 20 years (in no small part down to the amateur blazer brigade that ran the SRU, was fiercely opposed to any form of remuneration for players including them having to pay for their own replacement jerseys, and was generally clueless about professional sports) while the Welsh had some great success in that time.

I sincerely hope Wales are not at the start of their own 20 years of misery induced by poor governance.

There used to be 5 pro teams in Wales.
There are no pro teams representing the Valleys tbh

For the first two or three years of the Celtic League there were 9 Welsh pro teams, as pro rugby in Wales copied the English model. And, imo, that was what let the genie out of the bottle, that they've never since worked out how to get back in.

[tabascoboy]

Senior players apparently now on their way to meet Nigel Walker, looks like they are standing firm for now

[tabascoboy]

Well,

[SaintK]

Yep! I wonder who blinked first.

Wales' Six Nations match against England in Cardiff will go ahead after the Welsh players decided to play.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64718572

[Line6 HXFX]

So they got what they wanted?
Tenured positions, whereby no matter how crap they play they get rewarded handsomely.
Allowed to warm the benches and massage tables of English clubs, and be allowed to play for England after a couple of years service via the Fiji thing?

[PlanetGlyndwr]

I hope jollies are now prohibited

[westport]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64718572

They were seeking:

Wales Rugby Players' Association (WRPA) representation at PRB meetings.

The removal of the contentious 60-cap selection rule in Wales whereby a player plying his trade outside the country cannot be picked unless he has made at least that number of Test appearances.

The removal of Welsh rugby bosses' demands that players accept 80% in set wages, with 20% available in bonuses.

A compromise package has been reached and the 60-cap will be reduced to 25.

Players and agents will have the option of a fixed contract or a fixed and variable deal.

[Slick]

The WRU shouldn't have budged on the cap bit

I think they should have, but they maybe also should have put a time limit on it

[PornDog]

The WRU shouldn't have budged on the cap bit

I think they should have, but they maybe also should have put a time limit on it

Not convinced at all. The regions are fucked as it is. Suppose they can't be more fucked. Have we discovered what the WRU are doing with all the readies?

Boot money for all the 'amatuer' club players possibly

[SaintK]

I think they should have, but they maybe also should have put a time limit on it

Not convinced at all. The regions are fucked as it is. Suppose they can't be more fucked. Have we discovered what the WRU are doing with all the readies?

Boot money for all the 'amatuer' club players possibly

As it ever was! I worked in the valleys in the 1970's and the boot money sloshing around at junior level was just ridiculous

[Line6 HXFX]

The amateur game is taking a kicking in Wales, after Ieuan Evans got elected by promising them the earth.
But without it what is Rugby?

Just a bunch of cheating over priviledged, cosseted, greedy miserable looking, underperforming twats worrying about their mortgages and head trauma, where fucking Joe Marler or Andy Powell are considered "characters", and people like watching so as to tell other people off, like they are a convention of school prefects?

The whole ethos and culture stems from the grassroots.
The Pro game is just unimaginably shite.

[PornDog]

Refry - I'm all for investment in the grassroots - 100%. However that investment should be in facilities and coaching - not extra beer money. Which is allegedly where funds are going!

[SaintK]

Sounds like some of the players will soon be voting with their feet if press rumours are to be believed
Jarrod Evans to Harlequins
Liam Williams to Japan
Ross Moriarty linked with Bayonne
Josh Adams linked with Lyon
Tomos Francis linked with Bordeaux
Nicky Smith linked with Exeter
How many of these will turn out to be reality who knows but it sums up the current financial state of the Welsh regions!

Cardiff Rugby chief executive Richard Holland has revealed the club do not currently have sufficient money to contract enough players and coaching staff to form a squad for next season.
In a letter to fans, he confirmed bosses explained the stark situation facing them to players last week.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/ru ... -26356758

[Sandstorm]

Sounds like some of the players will soon be voting with their feet if press rumours are to be believed
Jarrod Evans to Harlequins
Liam Williams to Japan
Ross Moriarty linked with Bayonne
Josh Adams linked with Lyon
Tomos Francis linked with Bordeaux
Nicky Smith linked with Exeter
How many of these will turn out to be reality who knows but it sums up the current financial state of the Welsh regions!

Cardiff Rugby chief executive Richard Holland has revealed the club do not currently have sufficient money to contract enough players and coaching staff to form a squad for next season.
In a letter to fans, he confirmed bosses explained the stark situation facing them to players last week.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/ru ... -26356758

Probably time to bin the Welsh clubs from the United Rugby Championship and bring back financially secure teams like Southern Kings and Cheetahs in their stead.

[Jim Lahey]

Sounds like some of the players will soon be voting with their feet if press rumours are to be believed
Jarrod Evans to Harlequins
Liam Williams to Japan
Ross Moriarty linked with Bayonne
Josh Adams linked with Lyon
Tomos Francis linked with Bordeaux
Nicky Smith linked with Exeter
How many of these will turn out to be reality who knows but it sums up the current financial state of the Welsh regions!

Cardiff Rugby chief executive Richard Holland has revealed the club do not currently have sufficient money to contract enough players and coaching staff to form a squad for next season.
In a letter to fans, he confirmed bosses explained the stark situation facing them to players last week.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/ru ... -26356758

Probably time to bin the Welsh clubs from the United Rugby Championship and bring back financially secure teams like Southern Kings and Cheetahs in their stead.

Yeah, nah.
Plus, we'd all be fucked without the Welsh TV money.