The Scottish Politics Thread

[Slick]

Well I agree with this, Scotland has obviously chosen a different path and rightly so. I just disagree when we start veering off into Scottish exceptionalism and hints of moral superiority over England.

When this was mentioned yesterday it was in the context of voters in Scotland choosing a different path. I maintain that when push comes to shove votes are more indicative of attitudes than any survey where there is no consequence to their responses.

I think that holds true in London too, where there are only 20 Tory MPs from 73 constituencies, to me that suggests that the majority of people in London wish to go down a different path to that which the current government is taking us.

It's got nothing to do with exceptionalism or moral superiority, it's just different viewpoints.

I have never understood why someone would vote for Scottish Independence, just to be Independent , that makes no sense to me
( I know that in todays global world no country is even remotely Independent )

Surely you only vote for Independence if it offers you opportunities that are different to the current set up of the current political Union.

Dogbert, you would hope this is case but I think it's fair to say that the majority of independence supporters vote SNP just for independence

I'd say that by definition Independence offers a different future to the status quo, I know people whose motivation is Independence for Independence's sake. I respect that view - their argument goes that for the majority of countries in the world, independence is normal. It's not necessarily my own view.

However, I do think that if the UK government's policies matched the hopes and expectations of the electorate in Scotland, then there would be far less support for indy, though having said that the waters are muddied by the meltdown of Labour north of the border - the voters didn't have many places to go, Labour voters are not going to switch to Tory in great numbers.

Indy isn't going to happen any time soon, events have rather overtaken that, it will be interesting to see what happens to the Scottish party numbers when Labour get in to Downing St, if they make a success of it I think support for the SNP will cool.

Apologies then, I should have checked with you

[Dogbert]

Dogbert, you would hope this is case but I think it's fair to say that the majority of independence supporters vote SNP just for independence

The thing is, among my friends, that's not true.

And yet is it not that the SNP only there to deliver independence, after which it will dissolve? I thought that was pushed heavily during the 2014 referendum? Clearly that's helpful to counter the "SNP can't run the country with limited power, how can they be trusted to run a fully independent one" argument. However, in order to deliver independence they need to be a competent devolved government first, so a bit of a paradox there.

I know it's a different question, but I can't think of anyone I know who votes for the SNP who doesn't want independence.

.
Not by the SNP , I did see it suggested in the media ,and if Independence were to occur there certainly could be changes in the political landscape in Scotland, bit its certainly not SNP policy to dissolve after Independence ,

[Dogbert]

Well I agree with this, Scotland has obviously chosen a different path and rightly so. I just disagree when we start veering off into Scottish exceptionalism and hints of moral superiority over England.

When this was mentioned yesterday it was in the context of voters in Scotland choosing a different path. I maintain that when push comes to shove votes are more indicative of attitudes than any survey where there is no consequence to their responses.

I think that holds true in London too, where there are only 20 Tory MPs from 73 constituencies, to me that suggests that the majority of people in London wish to go down a different path to that which the current government is taking us.

It's got nothing to do with exceptionalism or moral superiority, it's just different viewpoints.

Dogbert, you would hope this is case but I think it's fair to say that the majority of independence supporters vote SNP just for independence

I'd say that by definition Independence offers a different future to the status quo, I know people whose motivation is Independence for Independence's sake. I respect that view - their argument goes that for the majority of countries in the world, independence is normal. It's not necessarily my own view.

However, I do think that if the UK government's policies matched the hopes and expectations of the electorate in Scotland, then there would be far less support for indy, though having said that the waters are muddied by the meltdown of Labour north of the border - the voters didn't have many places to go, Labour voters are not going to switch to Tory in great numbers.

Indy isn't going to happen any time soon, events have rather overtaken that, it will be interesting to see what happens to the Scottish party numbers when Labour get in to Downing St, if they make a success of it I think support for the SNP will cool.

Apologies then, I should have checked with you

There is the issue

[tc27]

Nominations closed.

In terms of political skill all three are a massive step down..interesting times for the SNP ahead.

This is a pretty big intervention:

[SaintK]

Nominations closed.

In terms of political skill all three are a massive step down..interesting times for the SNP ahead.

From what we've heard from them so far that appears to be an understatement
I know very little about the 2 women involved but what I've read and heard about Yousaf hhas not been at all flattering or complimentary. I recall several articles in Private Eye calling out his competence and lack of ability in running his department over the years.

[tc27]

Prediction - there will be a another FM within a couple of years - probably Swinney or Robertson standing un-opposssed.

[Slick]

Nominations closed.

In terms of political skill all three are a massive step down..interesting times for the SNP ahead.

From what we've heard from them so far that appears to be an understatement
I know very little about the 2 women involved but what I've read and heard about Yousaf hhas not been at all flattering or complimentary. I recall several articles in Private Eye calling out his competence and lack of ability in running his department over the years.

I don’t think there are many that could defend him or his record. The really absurd thing from where I stand is that he is standing as a continuity candidate but surely continuity is the last thing they need, particularly from someone who is so obviously a massive step down from the last FM who couldn’t make it work

[Tichtheid]

I really like Mhairi Black, I'd like to think she could be leader and FM some time, but I won't hold my breath.

[Tichtheid]

Apologies then, I should have checked with you

Accepted.

Thank you.

[Paddington Bear]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

[Biffer]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Glasgow is not the majority of Scots,no matter what Glaswegians think.

If the census results are in line with recent polling, the majority in Scotland will have selected ‘no religion’.

[Tichtheid]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Whilst Glasgow, and surrounds, is the biggest population centre of Scotland, if you go anywhere else no one would try to ascertain that, you'll get the odd anecdote, but it really isn't common outside of that part of the country.


Ah, Biffer beat me to it, I went to get some peanuts.

[Slick]

Apologies then, I should have checked with you

Accepted.

Thank you.

[SaintK]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

[Tichtheid]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

"Saracens" would get them reaching for Google.

I was once asked the Rangers of Celtic question in a Dublin pub, I truthfully answered that I didn't like football.

I didn't follow up by saying the reason I didn't like football was because of Rangers and Celtic

[Dogbert]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

And the correct response is of course - Partick Thistle

( who also have Kingsley - best Club mascot ever )

[Tichtheid]

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

And the correct response is of course - Partick Thistle

That's Partick Thistle F.C.

[Dogbert]

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

And the correct response is of course - Partick Thistle

That's Partick Thistle F.C.

Maryhill Magyars , please

[Tichtheid]

And the correct response is of course - Partick Thistle

That's Partick Thistle F.C.

Maryhill Magyars , please

I was referring to the Billy Connolly gag - most English people think they are called Partick Thistle nil

[weegie01]

Nominations closed.

In terms of political skill all three are a massive step down..interesting times for the SNP ahead.

This is a pretty big intervention:

I do not think Forbes has ever said that a same sex union should not be recognised or have the same rights. Happy to be shown to be wrong if this is the case.

What she has said unequivocally is that marriage is between a man and a woman and ordained by God. Which leaves a civil union as an option for same sex couples, or a male / female couple, to get the same rights as in a marriage. In my experience, this is by no means an unusual situation in relgious circles to the extent that the only two gay couples amongst our close friends explicitly went for a civil partnership for this reason.

But then my views are coloured by having no idea why people get so worked up by the concept 'marriage' if there are other ways to get the same rights. My wife and I only married for administrative convenience. We would have gone with a civil partnership had it been available at the time.

Whilst I understand why the religious would want their marriage solemised in a church, for everyone else I see no difference beween a civil wedding and a civil partnership (and for the purposes of this I am ignoring the non religious who get married in church just to make it more of an occasion). They give the same rights, so just do away with civil weddings and make it marriage for the religious and civil partnership for everyone else.

[Slick]

That's Partick Thistle F.C.

Maryhill Magyars , please

I was referring to the Billy Connolly gag - most English people think they are called Partick Thistle nil

A favourite in our family with my grandad a big Patrick Thistle fan

[Slick]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

Usually a little more subtle, school attended for instance, although to be fair that’s not usually subtle either in Glasgow.

When I was 14 I organised for my best friend, an Irish catholic, and I to go up to Glasgow on our own to play golf for a few days staying at my grandparents house. What I didn’t realise at the time was he was the first catholic ever in my granddads house and a few weeks of negotiations had gone on before we arrived…

[Paddington Bear]

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

"Saracens" would get them reaching for Google.

I start by mentioning cricket!

[GogLais]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

Don't they just ask you who you support, Rangers or Celtic?

Gets my goat when on holiday people ask me whether I support Everton or Liverpool just because I live on the Wirral. Ms GL thinks my usual response of being much more interested in Welsh rugby is a bit snobbish, I think ffyk em.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

I might suggest it's not about religion, it's about whether you're one of "us" or one of "them". Yes, "they" have ancestors who went to a different church, but most people in Scotland these days don't go to church. So (mostly) those that care will have very little idea about what happens in their own brand of religion, never mind the other brand.

[Slick]

I, like most people in Scotland, could not care less about someone’s religion

Preparing to marry in to a family with a significant Glaswegian presence and friendship groups has meant years of answering questions pretty clearly trying to work out if I'm a Protestant or a Catholic so I have let's say reservations about the truth of this.

I might suggest it's not about religion, it's about whether you're one of "us" or one of "them". Yes, "they" have ancestors who went to a different church, but most people in Scotland these days don't go to church. So (mostly) those that care will have very little idea about what happens in their own brand of religion, never mind the other brand.

This

[Slick]

I see Yousafs story about missing the vote on gay marriage is unravelling

[tc27]

I see Yousafs story about missing the vote on gay marriage is unravelling

It appears so.

[Blackmac]

Christ. Just seen the interview with Ash Regan. We are truly fucking doomed if this is the best they can come up with. It was like a Monty Python sketch.

[Big D]

Came back on to say two things:
1. The continued innuendo about NS and her love life by both sides of the independence vote but who don't like her, or her policies, or what she's stands for is beyond tedious and completely irrelevant. Fuck knows why wings over Scotland people up on my twitter but everyone should stop it.

2. Ferguson Marine issued (?) A first gazette notice today. Not good news.

[Slick]

Swinney goooooonnneeeee

[tc27]

Swinney goooooonnneeeee

Quite incredible non of the stalwarts want to take over.

Or maybe not as they know its going to become an absolute shit show.

[Slick]

Swinney goooooonnneeeee

Quite incredible non of the stalwarts want to take over.

Or maybe not as they know its going to become an absolute shit show.

It does feel a bit of a decimation at this point.

There is either something massive coming out or just a natural end to that generation.

I suspect the latter

[Tichtheid]

Before that third glass of celebratory fruit punch kicks in, it might be worth taking a minute to reflect on what England, by way of their electorate has foisted on the whole of the UK for the last dozen or so years, Cowardly Cameron, the hapless architect of Brexit who ran away at the first hint of trouble, Osbourne, the deliberate architect of an unnecessary austerity campaign against the poor, Theresa "Hostile Environment" May juggled whilst walking a tightrope for a while before being brought down by the serial proven liar Bojo the Clown who then tripped over his own underpants allowing the actual worst actual prime minister in actual history to seize power, who managed to tank the economy overnight, her and her Economic (he's got a PhD in it you know) Expert Chancellor. Then we got a guy who stood there the other day and espoused the virtues of having access to the EU and UK markets and how that would have investors rushing to Norn Ireland, and he didn't even look like he was joking or could see the ironing.

That's not to mention the various Hunts, Patersons, Rees-Moggs etc, oh, I've just remembered something from yesterday, Johnson and Sunak are still lying, they're saying the speed of the vaccine roll out was because we were unshackled from EU red tape - bollocks, it is another lie, the UK was always able to make provision on its own in an emergency. I'll provide the source if anyone wants it, but anyway that isn't the point here.

There may well be a drop in talent in Scottish politics for a while and I'm not trying to compare the two, except I am, but there does seem to be some kind of dignity or seriousness attached to UK government minister just by virtue of them having seats in the HoC, where as "Ministers of the Provinces" are ridiculed - that creature Rees-Mogg was prepared to throw the leader of his party in Scotland under a bus of inconsequentiality because he had a different viewpoint on an issue I can't recall right now.

When there is a serious government in Westminster, with serious people running it, it could well add weight to the argument of those denigrating the people running the devolved houses just because they can't stand their very existence, but we are a long way from that.

As I said before, there is an argument for Indy that isn't to do with who the personalities are, it goes that a right wing, or any wing, or a coalition government in Edinburgh is better than any government from Westminster deciding what path Scots should follow.
To repeat another point, when England votes in a similar way to Scotland I imagine the calls for Indy will cool, but the resentment is being unrelentingly stoked, I see in the Torygraph their attempts at revisionism over the pandemic include blaming Nicola Sturgeon - "English children paid the price because Boris believed the Sturgeon hype" goes the headline.

This has to stop, if anyone really wants keep the UK together, then a more serious debate is needed, the stuff the media comes out with isn't too different from a pub bore blaming "the fuckin Ingish" for Scotland's football team being shite.

If after that debate the electorate in England remains adamant that the Tories are the party for them, then what should Scots do?
Scotland isn't a province, any more than England is a mere province.

I'm kind of losing my thread here, so I'll leave it for now.

[Biffer]

Before that third glass of celebratory fruit punch kicks in, it might be worth taking a minute to reflect on what England, by way of their electorate has foisted on the whole of the UK for the last dozen or so years, Cowardly Cameron, the hapless architect of Brexit who ran away at the first hint of trouble, Osbourne, the deliberate architect of an unnecessary austerity campaign against the poor, Theresa "Hostile Environment" May juggled whilst walking a tightrope for a while before being brought down by the serial proven liar Bojo the Clown who then tripped over his own underpants allowing the actual worst actual prime minister in actual history to seize power, who managed to tank the economy overnight, her and her Economic (he's got a PhD in it you know) Expert Chancellor. Then we got a guy who stood there the other day and espoused the virtues of having access to the EU and UK markets and how that would have investors rushing to Norn Ireland, and he didn't even look like he was joking or could see the ironing.

That's not to mention the various Hunts, Patersons, Rees-Moggs etc, oh, I've just remembered something from yesterday, Johnson and Sunak are still lying, they're saying the speed of the vaccine roll out was because we were unshackled from EU red tape - bollocks, it is another lie, the UK was always able to make provision on its own in an emergency. I'll provide the source if anyone wants it, but anyway that isn't the point here.

There may well be a drop in talent in Scottish politics for a while and I'm not trying to compare the two, except I am, but there does seem to be some kind of dignity or seriousness attached to UK government minister just by virtue of them having seats in the HoC, where as "Ministers of the Provinces" are ridiculed - that creature Rees-Mogg was prepared to throw the leader of his party in Scotland under a bus of inconsequentiality because he had a different viewpoint on an issue I can't recall right now.

When there is a serious government in Westminster, with serious people running it, it could well add weight to the argument of those denigrating the people running the devolved houses just because they can't stand their very existence, but we are a long way from that.

As I said before, there is an argument for Indy that isn't to do with who the personalities are, it goes that a right wing, or any wing, or a coalition government in Edinburgh is better than any government from Westminster deciding what path Scots should follow.
To repeat another point, when England votes in a similar way to Scotland I imagine the calls for Indy will cool, but the resentment is being unrelentingly stoked, I see in the Torygraph their attempts at revisionism over the pandemic include blaming Nicola Sturgeon - "English children paid the price because Boris believed the Sturgeon hype" goes the headline.

This has to stop, if anyone really wants keep the UK together, then a more serious debate is needed, the stuff the media comes out with isn't too different from a pub bore blaming "the fuckin Ingish" for Scotland's football team being shite.

If after that debate the electorate in England remains adamant that the Tories are the party for them, then what should Scots do?
Scotland isn't a province, any more than England is a mere province.

I'm kind of losing my thread here, so I'll leave it for now.

Well said

[Slick]

There may well be a drop in talent in Scottish politics for a while and I'm not trying to compare the two, except I am, but there does seem to be some kind of dignity or seriousness attached to UK government minister just by virtue of them having seats in the HoC, where as "Ministers of the Provinces" are ridiculed - that creature Rees-Mogg was prepared to throw the leader of his party in Scotland under a bus of inconsequentiality because he had a different viewpoint on an issue I can't recall right now.

When there is a serious government in Westminster, with serious people running it, it could well add weight to the argument of those denigrating the people running the devolved houses just because they can't stand their very existence, but we are a long way from that.

I agree with a lot of this and, although every generation probably says it, there has been a huge drop in standards of politicians across the UK. I want the Tory's out as much as anyone, but you look across the House at Labour and wonder where their basic competence is going to come from as well. I think they are all, rightly, ridiculed now and that is actually quite dangerous.

Where I would disagree is that the denigration of SG is firmly founded in their almost total failure to deliver anything of consequence and their hollowing out and politicisation of the civil service which has left it incapable of delivering anything. They had a choice and chose to chase independence rather than look after Scotland and they absolutely should be denigrated for that. They also chose to run the party the way they did that stopped anyone outside the top 3 or 4 gaining any experience or gravitas.

[Biffer]

There may well be a drop in talent in Scottish politics for a while and I'm not trying to compare the two, except I am, but there does seem to be some kind of dignity or seriousness attached to UK government minister just by virtue of them having seats in the HoC, where as "Ministers of the Provinces" are ridiculed - that creature Rees-Mogg was prepared to throw the leader of his party in Scotland under a bus of inconsequentiality because he had a different viewpoint on an issue I can't recall right now.

When there is a serious government in Westminster, with serious people running it, it could well add weight to the argument of those denigrating the people running the devolved houses just because they can't stand their very existence, but we are a long way from that.

I agree with a lot of this and, although every generation probably says it, there has been a huge drop in standards of politicians across the UK. I want the Tory's out as much as anyone, but you look across the House at Labour and wonder where their basic competence is going to come from as well. I think they are all, rightly, ridiculed now and that is actually quite dangerous.

Where I would disagree is that the denigration of SG is firmly founded in their almost total failure to deliver anything of consequence and their hollowing out and politicisation of the civil service which has left it incapable of delivering anything. They had a choice and chose to chase independence rather than look after Scotland and they absolutely should be denigrated for that. They also chose to run the party the way they did that stopped anyone outside the top 3 or 4 gaining any experience or gravitas.

Denigrating a party for pursuing it's primary electoral objective seems a bit odd - unless of course the real objection is disagreeing with that objective. Things of consequence that have been delivered would include the Bathgate - Airdrie line, completing the M8, the borders railway, the Aberdeen bypass and the Queensferry Crossing, but more importantly what's been done to lessen child poverty - it doesn't get headlines, nobody sems to give a toss, but what's been started, if it's continued, will have long term effects on our society.

[Slick]

There may well be a drop in talent in Scottish politics for a while and I'm not trying to compare the two, except I am, but there does seem to be some kind of dignity or seriousness attached to UK government minister just by virtue of them having seats in the HoC, where as "Ministers of the Provinces" are ridiculed - that creature Rees-Mogg was prepared to throw the leader of his party in Scotland under a bus of inconsequentiality because he had a different viewpoint on an issue I can't recall right now.

When there is a serious government in Westminster, with serious people running it, it could well add weight to the argument of those denigrating the people running the devolved houses just because they can't stand their very existence, but we are a long way from that.

I agree with a lot of this and, although every generation probably says it, there has been a huge drop in standards of politicians across the UK. I want the Tory's out as much as anyone, but you look across the House at Labour and wonder where their basic competence is going to come from as well. I think they are all, rightly, ridiculed now and that is actually quite dangerous.

Where I would disagree is that the denigration of SG is firmly founded in their almost total failure to deliver anything of consequence and their hollowing out and politicisation of the civil service which has left it incapable of delivering anything. They had a choice and chose to chase independence rather than look after Scotland and they absolutely should be denigrated for that. They also chose to run the party the way they did that stopped anyone outside the top 3 or 4 gaining any experience or gravitas.

Denigrating a party for pursuing it's primary electoral objective seems a bit odd - unless of course the real objection is disagreeing with that objective. Things of consequence that have been delivered would include the Bathgate - Airdrie line, completing the M8, the borders railway, the Aberdeen bypass and the Queensferry Crossing, but more importantly what's been done to lessen child poverty - it doesn't get headlines, nobody sems to give a toss, but what's been started, if it's continued, will have long term effects on our society.

Stop denigrating my denigrations.

We could go round on this for hours, I just hope that whoever the new leader is has a more balanced focus. That's why I desperately don't want Yousaf.

[tc27]

It seems to me its just a political establishment running out of steam after 16 years. Nationalism changes the dynamic a bit but the experience of the Bloc Québécois (which got to within a hairs breath of winning both its referendums and dominating Quebecs government) is that political gravity still applies.


I also think the SNP itself has some serious problems. The SNP has had two successive leaders who were excellent at politics (if not government) but the cupboard now looks bare. Plus they will inventible run out of road with the more radical part of their own support.

[Biffer]

I also love people trying to pretend the SNP is the establishment.