So, coronavirus...

[Enzedder]

Interesting graph. Reinforces my thinking that we definitely got it right

FB_IMG_1676086251178.jpg (99.13 KiB) Viewed 801 times

[Duff Paddy]

Interesting graph. Reinforces my thinking that we definitely got it right

FB_IMG_1676086251178.jpg

Certainly but being an isolated group of two islands with no land borders certainly lies behind some of that success. Denmark, when all things are considered, really knocked it out do the park I think we could learn a lot from how they organised and fund their healthcare systems.

[BnM]

Finally the fecker got me. Getting Paxlovid on Monday, hospital doesn't work weekends.

[Tichtheid]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64890952

Some good news, a survey of surveys suggests, with some caveats, that, “ Mental-health crisis from pandemic was minimal ”

[Ymx]

It’s a strange article in that the rest of it seem to completely reject the title of it.

'Soaring demand'

As many as one in six seven-16-year-olds and one in four 17-19-year-olds in England had a probable mental disorder in 2022, an online NHS survey found, up on previous years.

Separate NHS figures show the number of children in contact with mental-health services rose by nearly 30% between 2020-21 and 2021-22, to nearly a million.

And in a survey by mental-health charity Mind, in 2021, about a third of adults and young people said their mental health had become much worse since March 2020.

Those most affected by the pandemic were people who struggled with their mental health before Covid.

Dr Roman Raczka, who chairs the British Psychological Society's division of clinical psychology, said the full picture remained unclear and more studies among people with health problems in deprived areas were needed.

"We do know that overstretched and underfunded mental-health services have been unable to meet soaring demand in recent years," he said.

"With more people reaching out for support, it is vital that the government adequately fun

[Tichtheid]

It’s a strange article in that the rest of it seem to completely reject the title of it.

'Soaring demand'

As many as one in six seven-16-year-olds and one in four 17-19-year-olds in England had a probable mental disorder in 2022, an online NHS survey found, up on previous years.

Separate NHS figures show the number of children in contact with mental-health services rose by nearly 30% between 2020-21 and 2021-22, to nearly a million.

And in a survey by mental-health charity Mind, in 2021, about a third of adults and young people said their mental health had become much worse since March 2020.

Those most affected by the pandemic were people who struggled with their mental health before Covid.

Dr Roman Raczka, who chairs the British Psychological Society's division of clinical psychology, said the full picture remained unclear and more studies among people with health problems in deprived areas were needed.

"We do know that overstretched and underfunded mental-health services have been unable to meet soaring demand in recent years," he said.

"With more people reaching out for support, it is vital that the government adequately fun

If you click through to the report itself the abstract has this

Conclusions
High risk of bias in many studies and substantial heterogeneity suggest caution in interpreting results. Nonetheless, most symptom change estimates for general mental health, anxiety symptoms, and depression symptoms were close to zero and not statistically significant, and significant changes were of minimal to small magnitudes. Small negative changes occurred for women or female participants in all domains. The authors will update the results of this systematic review as more evidence accrues, with study results posted online (https://www.depressd.ca/covid-19-mental-health).


It does say the results were focussed on adults in high-income countries.

Taking a longer-term view, I think there will have been a huge "increase" in mental illness and associated disorders in more recent years just purely down to improvements in diagnosis and greater understanding in that field of medicine.
It's also no longer a thing of shame to suffer from mental illness, at least not as much as it was before.

[dpedin]

It’s a strange article in that the rest of it seem to completely reject the title of it.

'Soaring demand'

As many as one in six seven-16-year-olds and one in four 17-19-year-olds in England had a probable mental disorder in 2022, an online NHS survey found, up on previous years.

Separate NHS figures show the number of children in contact with mental-health services rose by nearly 30% between 2020-21 and 2021-22, to nearly a million.

And in a survey by mental-health charity Mind, in 2021, about a third of adults and young people said their mental health had become much worse since March 2020.

Those most affected by the pandemic were people who struggled with their mental health before Covid.

Dr Roman Raczka, who chairs the British Psychological Society's division of clinical psychology, said the full picture remained unclear and more studies among people with health problems in deprived areas were needed.

"We do know that overstretched and underfunded mental-health services have been unable to meet soaring demand in recent years," he said.

"With more people reaching out for support, it is vital that the government adequately fun

If you click through to the report itself the abstract has this

Conclusions
High risk of bias in many studies and substantial heterogeneity suggest caution in interpreting results. Nonetheless, most symptom change estimates for general mental health, anxiety symptoms, and depression symptoms were close to zero and not statistically significant, and significant changes were of minimal to small magnitudes. Small negative changes occurred for women or female participants in all domains. The authors will update the results of this systematic review as more evidence accrues, with study results posted online (https://www.depressd.ca/covid-19-mental-health).


It does say the results were focussed on adults in high-income countries.

Taking a longer-term view, I think there will have been a huge "increase" in mental illness and associated disorders in more recent years just purely down to improvements in diagnosis and greater understanding in that field of medicine.
It's also no longer a thing of shame to suffer from mental illness, at least not as much as it was before.

It is an interesting study based on looking at 137 other studies of 134 cohorts. It's interesting in that it only uses studies than compare measures of mental health pre pandemic with post pandemic. Like all studies it has limitations for example it doesn't look at studies of children <9 years old and doesn't include low income countries such as sub Saharan countries - but this is normal for these types of studies. It also puts to bed some claims - for example it found no evidence, using nationally published data, for any increase in suicide due to the pandemic responses. The conclusion is interesting for Govs thinking about future responses to pandemics and the impact upon the wider populations mental health not least that folk are resilient during difficult times. It will be interesting to see if any longer term mental health impacts emerge as time goes by.

'Conclusions
We reviewed 137 studies with data from 134 unique cohorts. Across population groups, results suggest that, rather than a mental health crisis, at a population level there has been a high level of resilience during covid-19, and changes in general mental health, anxiety symptoms, and depression symptoms have been minimal to small with no changes detected in most analyses. There were few robust studies with vulnerable groups, however, and it is possible that some population groups experience mental health issues that differ from those of the general population or from other groups. The pandemic and the long term ramifications continue to affect societies across the world, and it will be important to continue to assess mental health. The pandemic has affected the lives of many people, and some are now experiencing mental health difficulties for the first time. Governments should continue to ensure that mental health supports are available and respond to population needs. We will update the results of this systematic review as more evidence accrues, with study results posted online (https://www.depressd.ca/covid-19-mental-health).'

[Ymx]

I guess I was mainly reading the UK report, which did not read well.

[dpedin]

I guess I was mainly reading the UK report, which did not read well.

This type of research looking across many numerous studies from numerous countries can often miss specific issues that arise within a specific country and/or specific cohort. On the other hand I think the report acknowledges this. It would be interesting to see a comparative analysis and if any country did better or worse in terms of protecting the mental health of its population and what they did/didnt do that caused this.

[Ymx]

I guess I was mainly reading the UK report, which did not read well.

This type of research looking across many numerous studies from numerous countries can often miss specific issues that arise within a specific country and/or specific cohort. On the other hand I think the report acknowledges this. It would be interesting to see a comparative analysis and if any country did better or worse in terms of protecting the mental health of its population and what they did/didnt do that caused this.

Well, yes, every country had different policies and timelines for vaccinations, etc.

So UK, Israel, Sweden, New Zealand, would all have substantial variations accordingly.

[Tichtheid]

Was the Covid pandemic bad for mental health? It depends who you ask
Devi Sridhar

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-lockdown

[dpedin]

Was the Covid pandemic bad for mental health? It depends who you ask
Devi Sridhar

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-lockdown

Sensible article and view and expresses far better what I was trying to say about the research and the nuances this type of research doesn't and can't address.

It is bit like economics when the ONS says wages have remained static for a quarter but this doesnt explain why large numbers of folk have seen wage cuts and others have seen wage increases - for those having had a wage cut it can seem their hardships are being ignored, they get angry about it! and say stats are wrong! Those who have had wage increases just stay quiet!

[dpedin]

The idea that lockdown did not have an effect ilon mental health across the age groups is so far fetched it would take someone wrapping themselves in knots to arrive at that conclusion.

I don't think anyone is saying that! However for many the lockdown wasn't the mental health disaster it was for others. For many not having the long commute every day in the car, bus or train, getting more time in fresh air walking, more time with the family etc was a bonus and probably did their mental health good. I know many who adapted well to working from home, spread the work out across the 24 hours, have reduced their childcare problems/costs, etc and are continuing to work more flexibly as a result. It is very nuanced and for some lock downs had a big impact upon their mental health but for many others, probably those better off, it wasn't. On a personal basis I was lucky, it didn't have any negative impact on me and actually had a positive impact in many ways - it got me walking every day, lose weight and meet friends outside instead of in the pub drinking.

If we are to learn anything from the lock downs and the impact on mental health it is about understanding who it impacted on most and adopting strategies that target these groups ie young folk and women from more disadvantaged back grounds? Having a blanket assumption it hurt everyone or no-one is simplistic and doesn't help.

[Ymx]

I don’t think it went too well for cases of health anxiety. You can see it still about. Some people are still wearing masks in supermarkets, some even in cars.

But I do get the point that it was good for society to evolve to a working from home norm, for all those reasons you mentioned.

It obviously wasn’t great at all for kids when they were locked at home with home schooling, and not mixing it up.

[Jim Lahey]

A mate of mine's folks, who were very outgoing and the life and soul of the party, went batshit over covid. They still rarely leave the house for fear of infection, still only see their grandkids through the living room window etc. Its gotten to the stage that my mate's kids dont want to see their granny and granda anymore because of it.

The fear-mongering politicians, civil servants, and the media have a lot to answer for imo. Most of us thankfully saw through the bollocks, but there were a lot of unfortunate ones that didn't.

[Guy Smiley]

The idea that lockdown did not have an effect ilon mental health across the age groups is so far fetched it would take someone wrapping themselves in knots to arrive at that conclusion.

I don't think anyone is saying that! However for many the lockdown wasn't the mental health disaster it was for others. For many not having the long commute every day in the car, bus or train, getting more time in fresh air walking, more time with the family etc was a bonus and probably did their mental health good. I know many who adapted well to working from home, spread the work out across the 24 hours, have reduced their childcare problems/costs, etc and are continuing to work more flexibly as a result. It is very nuanced and for some lock downs had a big impact upon their mental health but for many others, probably those better off, it wasn't. On a personal basis I was lucky, it didn't have any negative impact on me and actually had a positive impact in many ways - it got me walking every day, lose weight and meet friends outside instead of in the pub drinking.

If we are to learn anything from the lock downs and the impact on mental health it is about understanding who it impacted on most and adopting strategies that target these groups ie young folk and women from more disadvantaged back grounds? Having a blanket assumption it hurt everyone or no-one is simplistic and doesn't help.

There's a residual resentment about lockdowns running through many of these types of conversations. The theme seems to be that lockdowns were bad because mental health.

A counter argument might suggest that the alternative... virus running free and a much more devastating pandemic would have been even more damaging with regard to mental health stats, for those that survived.

I'd suggest that there's a bit of fanny with her hands in the air about this. Covid as a phenomenon is / was unprecedented in our lives so of course, there's been a massive disruption and attendant mental health issues... same as you'd get with massive disasters, crises and wars.

Seeking to blame the lockdowns is a symptom of the general sense of entitlement many have developed as our societies became wealthier and consumer driven. I'd say harden the fuck up princesses, shit happens.

[mat the expat]

I don’t think it went too well for cases of health anxiety. You can see it still about. Some people are still wearing masks in supermarkets, some even in cars.

You do realise, Covid is still a massive threat to people with compromised immune systems? They aren't wearing them due to anxiety.

[mat the expat]

A mate of mine's folks, who were very outgoing and the life and soul of the party, went batshit over covid. They still rarely leave the house for fear of infection, still only see their grandkids through the living room window etc. Its gotten to the stage that my mate's kids dont want to see their granny and granda anymore because of it.

The fear-mongering politicians, civil servants, and the media have a lot to answer for imo. Most of us thankfully saw through the bollocks, but there were a lot of unfortunate ones that didn't.

So you were flying the freedom flag all through Covid then?

[Jim Lahey]

A mate of mine's folks, who were very outgoing and the life and soul of the party, went batshit over covid. They still rarely leave the house for fear of infection, still only see their grandkids through the living room window etc. Its gotten to the stage that my mate's kids dont want to see their granny and granda anymore because of it.

The fear-mongering politicians, civil servants, and the media have a lot to answer for imo. Most of us thankfully saw through the bollocks, but there were a lot of unfortunate ones that didn't.

So you were flying the freedom flag all through Covid then?

Nah, I complied but after the initial lockdown ended I just went about my life. I'm no conspiracy nut but when you could see all the "experts" trotting out the daily fear, and you have 3 young kids that just want to go out and play with their friends, it puts things into perspective.

The government, civil service and media massively overplayed their hand. It was apparent then, and even more so in retrospect.

[Guy Smiley]

I'm no conspiracy nut but

[Margin__Walker]

I'm no conspiracy nut but

Nothing wrong with that at all imo. You can have a rational position on this and generally support the action taken, be happy to be vaccinated etc, whilst still thinking that some people got a bit carried away with it all.

[Biffer]

The lack of understanding how the balance between immune response and a new disease works is driving most of this. It's not the threat it was, because of vaccines combined with exposure. But it's still dangerous to some, and has promoted more awareness of respiratory infection amongst susceptible people.

Rewriting what should have been done three years ago on the basis of disease status and vulnerability on a macro societal scale now is just dumb fuckery. Genuinely fucking thick if you don't get that - either that or you're deliberately doing it for political / other agendas.

[Tichtheid]

The idea that lockdown did not have an effect ilon mental health across the age groups is so far fetched it would take someone wrapping themselves in knots to arrive at that conclusion.

I don't think anyone is saying that! However for many the lockdown wasn't the mental health disaster it was for others. For many not having the long commute every day in the car, bus or train, getting more time in fresh air walking, more time with the family etc was a bonus and probably did their mental health good. I know many who adapted well to working from home, spread the work out across the 24 hours, have reduced their childcare problems/costs, etc and are continuing to work more flexibly as a result. It is very nuanced and for some lock downs had a big impact upon their mental health but for many others, probably those better off, it wasn't. On a personal basis I was lucky, it didn't have any negative impact on me and actually had a positive impact in many ways - it got me walking every day, lose weight and meet friends outside instead of in the pub drinking.

If we are to learn anything from the lock downs and the impact on mental health it is about understanding who it impacted on most and adopting strategies that target these groups ie young folk and women from more disadvantaged back grounds? Having a blanket assumption it hurt everyone or no-one is simplistic and doesn't help.

There's a residual resentment about lockdowns running through many of these types of conversations. The theme seems to be that lockdowns were bad because mental health.

A counter argument might suggest that the alternative... virus running free and a much more devastating pandemic would have been even more damaging with regard to mental health stats, for those that survived.

I'd suggest that there's a bit of fanny with her hands in the air about this. Covid as a phenomenon is / was unprecedented in our lives so of course, there's been a massive disruption and attendant mental health issues... same as you'd get with massive disasters, crises and wars.

Seeking to blame the lockdowns is a symptom of the general sense of entitlement many have developed as our societies became wealthier and consumer driven. I'd say harden the fuck up princesses, shit happens.

I think you are right here, and Devi Sridhar makes a similar point in the article I posted up there

No one is pro-lockdown; this was about being anti-mass death. Covid-19 from 2020 to 2022 was a once-in-a-century pandemic, most closely related to the 1918 flu pandemic, which involved similar measures such as shutdowns and mask mandates.

These things are not simplistic, but I think as we've become more liberal and informed about social issues, we've also become more individualistic, more "me' less "us", certainly in the UK since the 80s

[S/Lt_Phillips]

The lack of understanding how the balance between immune response and a new disease works is driving most of this. It's not the threat it was, because of vaccines combined with exposure. But it's still dangerous to some, and has promoted more awareness of respiratory infection amongst susceptible people.

Rewriting what should have been done three years ago on the basis of disease status and vulnerability on a macro societal scale now is just dumb fuckery. Genuinely fucking thick if you don't get that - either that or you're deliberately doing it for political / other agendas.

This.

I got covid fairly recently, it was pretty mild by all accounts, but still very unpleasant. I'm very glad I didn't get it before it evolved into a less threatening variant and I'd had 3 vaccinations, who knows what the outcome might have been if I got it a couple if years ago. Most rational people seem to appreciate the serious threat and the lack of knowledge in the early days of the whole thing (hence the pretty universal compliance with lockdown), and recognise that the situation is now different, as Biffer notes above.

Clearly some Tory donors lost lots of office rental income during lockdown, hence the likes of the Telegraph doing its best to paint the whole thing as entirely unnecessary, and so ensure it never happens again.

[Ymx]

We’ve been on quite the journey in to the unknown.

And I think all our opinions have changed over time.

At the point of the first lockdown I stayed miles away from people. Sneered at those who illegally stopped in their walks to sit on a bench or chat to others.
Went for walks in the woods with protective gloves on as my daughter liked to climb the trees.
I recall shouting at a man as his dog came right up to me putting its nose at me, not on a leash.
Shopping was a military operation, copper based mask, and hand sanitizer 90% homemade in my left hand which I covered every surface in the supermarket before even touching.
Obeyed the instruction to not do outside gardening for fear of catching it through a hedge ffs.
Any deliveries were left in the garage for several days, before opening them. And then washing hands.

But over time, it changed because
1. We were vaccinated
2. Restrictions had been relaxed and it was time for normality

The key moment for me was being vaccinated and delta being replaced by omicron. It was the end game.

Also having all my family catch Covid a few times and being pretty ok took any fear factor away.

It honest, unlike many, I don’t disagree too much with the UK’s covid response. Locked down pretty hard early on. Held their nerve to not close down over omicron.

Though, I wasn’t too keen when they started encouraging people to return to the office. Catch trains, etc. the first time nor the second time.

[Grandpa]

We’ve been on quite the journey in to the unknown.

And I think all our opinions have changed over time.

At the point of the first lockdown I stayed miles away from people. Sneered at those who illegally stopped in their walks to sit on a bench or chat to others.
Went for walks in the woods with protective gloves on as my daughter liked to climb the trees.
I recall shouting at a man as his dog came right up to me putting its nose at me, not on a leash.
Shopping was a military operation, copper based mask, and hand sanitizer 90% homemade in my left hand which I covered every surface in the supermarket before even touching.
Obeyed the instruction to not do outside gardening for fear of catching it through a hedge ffs.
Any deliveries were left in the garage for several days, before opening them. And then washing hands.

But over time, it changed because
1. We were vaccinated
2. Restrictions had been relaxed and it was time for normality

The key moment for me was being vaccinated and delta being replaced by omicron. It was the end game.

Also having all my family catch Covid a few times and being pretty ok took any fear factor away.

It honest, unlike many, I don’t disagree too much with the UK’s covid response. Locked down pretty hard early on. Held their nerve to not close down over omicron.

Though, I wasn’t too keen when they started encouraging people to return to the office. Catch trains, etc. the first time nor the second time.

That's quite funny if true? You were worried about catching it through the hedge? From the hedgehogs?

The thing about family members catching it and it not being that bad... it shows how we are swayed by anecdotal experiences... my mate watched as first his sister and then his brother caught Covid and went into hospital and were on ventilators... they both nearly died... both back home now and both need Oxygen in their homes for life... they are a shadow of their former selves... This caused him to be quite stressed about catching Covid as he was unfit compared to them... but then he caught Covid and was fine... despite both his siblings nearly dying... likely because he was vaccinated when he caught it... or just lucky he wasn't physiologically as vulnerable as he thought.

It's a complex subject... but he was so paranoid... and when you said scared of catching it through the hedge it made me think how he was during the first year...

[Ymx]

I believe Covid turns them slightly crazed. And the spike proteins attach to the hedgehogs spikes to turn them in to Covid injection machines.

Scary stuff

[JM2K6]

A mate of mine's folks, who were very outgoing and the life and soul of the party, went batshit over covid. They still rarely leave the house for fear of infection, still only see their grandkids through the living room window etc. Its gotten to the stage that my mate's kids dont want to see their granny and granda anymore because of it.

The fear-mongering politicians, civil servants, and the media have a lot to answer for imo. Most of us thankfully saw through the bollocks, but there were a lot of unfortunate ones that didn't.

So you were flying the freedom flag all through Covid then?

Nah, I complied but after the initial lockdown ended I just went about my life. I'm no conspiracy nut but when you could see all the "experts" trotting out the daily fear, and you have 3 young kids that just want to go out and play with their friends, it puts things into perspective.

The government, civil service and media massively overplayed their hand. It was apparent then, and even more so in retrospect.

More than a little confused by the logic here

"On the one hand you had people who know this stuff telling us about how dangerous the virus was, but on the other hand, some children wanted to go and play"

what perspective did you gain apart from "kids literally don't know anything and are notoriously poor at thinking of the bigger picture"

[Jim Lahey]

Don't see where the problem is here.

I abided by the rules until the end of the first set of lockdowns like a good little boy. That put significant strain on my household, kids unable to play without other kids etc. I got vaccinated, like a good little boy, and got on with my life, disregarding the overkill of fear from politicians and the media.

I let my kids go out and play with other kids. Lots of young families in my area, everyone had had enough of locking in the kids.

The logic is as simple as that.

My original point was that some people (my mate's folks) were glued to the fear pumped out by the media and are still fucked in the head from it.

[Ymx]

I’d say the kid’s natural instincts were probably bang on. They were pretty safe from it all, their main risk was probably more in not developing their immune system as they’d evolved to do through playing and eating dirt.

[JM2K6]

No-one was keeping them in sterile environments or locked away for years, ffs. That's what it would've taken to dramatically impact their immune system. And while the virus was far less of a problem for kids, it was a huge problem for everyone else - the people the kids were able to infect. Schools were a major multiplier, teachers got sick in droves, parents got sick in droves.

And some kids were indeed badly affected by the virus.

The rewriting of history by the anti-lockdown nuts is just baffling.

[Tichtheid]

No-one was keeping them in sterile environments or locked away for years, ffs. That's what it would've taken to dramatically impact their immune system. And while the virus was far less of a problem for kids, it was a huge problem for everyone else - the people the kids were able to infect. Schools were a major multiplier, teachers got sick in droves, parents got sick in droves.

And some kids were indeed badly affected by the virus.

The rewriting of history by the anti-lockdown nuts is just baffling.

Exactly.

I thought the immune system being compromised thing had been completely debunked, but it comes back from time to time.

[Ymx]

No-one was keeping them in sterile environments or locked away for years, ffs. That's what it would've taken to dramatically impact their immune system. And while the virus was far less of a problem for kids, it was a huge problem for everyone else - the people the kids were able to infect. Schools were a major multiplier, teachers got sick in droves, parents got sick in droves.

And some kids were indeed badly affected by the virus.

The rewriting of history by the anti-lockdown nuts is just baffling.

Exactly.

I thought the immune system being compromised thing had been completely debunked, but it comes back from time to time.

I think you were dreaming.

Very much at the forefront still

Dec 22
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitn ... -immunity/

Feb 23
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... blems.html

[Biffer]

No-one was keeping them in sterile environments or locked away for years, ffs. That's what it would've taken to dramatically impact their immune system. And while the virus was far less of a problem for kids, it was a huge problem for everyone else - the people the kids were able to infect. Schools were a major multiplier, teachers got sick in droves, parents got sick in droves.

And some kids were indeed badly affected by the virus.

The rewriting of history by the anti-lockdown nuts is just baffling.

Exactly.

I thought the immune system being compromised thing had been completely debunked, but it comes back from time to time.

I think you were dreaming.

Very much at the forefront still

Dec 22
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitn ... -immunity/

Feb 23
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... blems.html

You realise quoting the telegraph and the mail isn’t really evidence of any sort, right?

[JM2K6]

A few things notable in those articles:

1) the statement that there's no evidence that kids immune systems have been damaged by covid lockdowns (edit: missed an important word there)

2) the framing of immunity debt as meaning "they should have been infected previously but weren't so they are getting infected now" (which is... Not the same thing being argued)

[dpedin]

No-one was keeping them in sterile environments or locked away for years, ffs. That's what it would've taken to dramatically impact their immune system. And while the virus was far less of a problem for kids, it was a huge problem for everyone else - the people the kids were able to infect. Schools were a major multiplier, teachers got sick in droves, parents got sick in droves.

And some kids were indeed badly affected by the virus.

The rewriting of history by the anti-lockdown nuts is just baffling.

Exactly.

I thought the immune system being compromised thing had been completely debunked, but it comes back from time to time.

I think you were dreaming.

Very much at the forefront still

Dec 22
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitn ... -immunity/

Feb 23
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... blems.html

Lock downs do not mean folks/childrens immunity systems become weaker or damaged - this has been debunked numerous times. However some folk use the term immunity gap to explain that young children in particular have not been exposed to certain viruses/illnesses during lock downs and will therefore catch these when exposed to them once lock downs end. In some instances catching these when they are a bit older might present differently in kids as opposed to when they are babies, in others it might seem that kids catch more bugs and viruses over a short period of time because they are 'catching up'. This will diminish over time.

There are some theories that covid can, in some folk, harm or degrade our own immune systems or cause them to work less effectively. This is where the parallels with HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) came in as HIV amongst other things destroys white blood cells leading to a degradation of the host immune system leaving them vulnerable to a range of other illnesses and diseases etc. These theories are still being tested some use this to partially explain long covid.

The more worrying issue raised in one of the articles is the drop off in vaccination rates of kids during the pandemic and in lock downs. These vaccinations are essential to maintain herd immunity and if not vaccinated for these diseases ie measles, then it could be a disaster waiting to happen. This is for me the real 'immunity gap' we should be worrying about!

[Ymx]

Exactly.

I thought the immune system being compromised thing had been completely debunked, but it comes back from time to time.

I think you were dreaming.

Very much at the forefront still

Dec 22
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitn ... -immunity/

Feb 23
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... blems.html

You realise quoting the telegraph and the mail isn’t really evidence of any sort, right?

It was very clearly in response to the statement that it had been debunked. Those articles clearly state that this is not the case. There were fairly clear statements in there from actual academics, not just a journalistic slant.

And tbh, it’s a bit dull comment just stating that because it’s xyz publication, everything is null and void. Do better!

[Ymx]

As the long-awaited Covid inquiry begins, some scientific experts fear that lockdown could have left children with life-long immunity problems

By Jo Macfarlane for The Mail on Sunday
Updated: 22:14 11 Feb 2023

As spring approaches, the UK may finally turn the corner on one of the worst winters the health service has ever seen – particularly for child sickness. There have been mysterious infections, huge waves of respiratory illness and bugs on top of bugs.

Parents will be breathing a sigh of relief. But some experts warn many of these are pandemic-related problems that may be far from over.

Professor Tracy Hussell, a director at the Lydia Becker Institute for Immunology and Inflammation, told The Mail on Sunday that lockdowns, which were necessary to prevent the spread of Covid, may have had unintended consequences for children’s developing immune systems which could affect them for some time to come.

The most recent wave of infections were expected, she says. But – while it’s too early to say – they could represent a ‘smoking gun’ for the NHS which could ‘indicate what’s ahead for that generation’.

But why?

It is well known that when Covid hit the UK, children avoided the gauntlet of common childhood illnesses. School closures, social-distancing and mask-wearing meant those infections didn’t have the usual chances to spread.

But as a result, children’s immune systems haven’t developed to fight them. In fact, the immunity of the entire population has waned.

Now, with society largely back to normal, those illnesses have returned – and there is a much bigger pool of susceptible people they can infect. This is what scientists refer to as the ‘immunity gap’.

Most experts say that next winter, once these viruses have spread through the population again, allowing immune systems to recognise the bugs and fight them off more effectively, we’ll see smaller, more normal waves of infection.

But Prof Hussell says it is possible that, for some children, it may take longer to catch up. Being infected with viruses in early life, and being vaccinated, can be ‘an education’ for the immune system, she says.

Without either – or both, as we know childhood vaccination rates fell sharply during the pandemic – children may not only continue to pick up these bugs but become sicker from them because the immune system over-reacts when it encounters them.

The mental toll of being kept indoors

In early 2021, at the height of the third lockdown, 11-year-old Sophie McDonald tried to smash a window.

Cut off from her friends and unable to go to school, she had gradually become more withdrawn, angry and was struggling to focus on online class work. One day her mental health collapsed and she ‘lost it’, says her mother Janine, 52, from Salford.

‘She was hammering on a bedroom window with all her might, trying to get out,’ she says. ‘It was terrifying, heartbreaking. She was so different from the happy and outdoorsy little girl we’d known.

‘It has badly affected us as a family and she’s still struggling today.’

Sophie, now 13, even missed her final days at primary school because a pupil tested positive for Covid. She is now on the waiting list to be assessed for a neurodevelopmental disorder, which may take up to two years.

Janine, who runs her own decluttering business, Clear The Clutter Now, says: ‘There are times when I just sit and weep. It’s been expected that children will just bounce back, but that doesn’t acknowledge everything they’ve missed.’

Prof Hussell says: ‘The very early years are important for setting your immune system. These are shaped by the pollutants, bugs and viruses we encounter.

‘If you encounter very little to trouble that immune system – as happened to children during the Covid pandemic – it ends up being rather naive, and may over-react when it comes into contact with a bug or virus later on.

‘What we don’t yet know is at what stage someone’s immune system is set. But if it’s within a window of just a few years, many children may react more severely to common infections for a long time. Could these waves of infection be a smoking gun for the NHS, a sign of what’s to come? It’s too early to say.’

If this does happen, it may represent just one of the enduring issues children are facing as a result of the pandemic.

On Tuesday, the first preliminary hearing of the independent UK Covid-19 Inquiry will be held, which will investigate the harms of key decisions the Government made during the pandemic.

Young people have, surprisingly, only recently been added to the agenda. They were initially left out of the draft scope, until Ministers bowed to pressure from campaigners, including former children’s commissioner Anne Longfield. This was despite that fact the Government’s pandemic advisory group SAGE was presented with evidence of harms to children in the autumn of 2020. Recently, more evidence has provided further proof.

Last week, an annual Government report which assesses child wellbeing found that loneliness and mental health problems have worsened, particularly among girls, while rates of eating disorders, self-harm and obesity have soared since the pandemic. Referrals for serious mental health problems such as depression, anxiety and self-harm also rose 39 per cent last year to 1.1 million.

Separate NHS Digital data shows hospital admissions for under-18s with eating disorders have risen 82 per cent to 7,719 since the year before the pandemic. Neurologists also noted an increase in the number of girls developing tics – repeated, twitching movements – which are thought to be linked to high levels of stress and anxiety.

Many children are still more than a month behind in reading and weeks behind in maths, which according to a recent National Audit Office report is putting their future earning potential at risk. Education watchdog Ofsted has found ten per cent more five- and six-year-olds than usual need support with speech and language in schools. Meanwhile, Ofsted chief Amanda Spielman has also warned of an increase in persistent school absences since the pandemic – with nearly 100,000 disappearing almost entirely from school.

Anne Longfield told The Mail on Sunday that children were ‘still paying the price’ for Covid-related school closures, ‘and potentially will be for a very long time to come’. In contrast, the impact of the Covid virus itself on most children has been limited – 141 children died from the virus, a tiny fraction of the UK total of more than 200,000 people.

However, the latest data from the Office for National Statistics suggests about 71,000 children in the UK are suffering from long Covid, which includes symptoms such as debilitating fatigue, brain fog, sleep problems and muscle pain. And as the evidence of long-term harm mounts, many experts are increasingly convinced the well-meaning measures brought in to protect children from Covid were actually worse than the disease.

The fact many different infections have spent the winter circulating at the same time – outside their normal seasonal patterns – has exacerbated the situation, scientists say. And when they coincide like this, they can cause significant problems.

[JM2K6]

Bit weird to link it and then later post it but only partially, not including the bit where the immunopathologist says, quote, "There's no evidence for longer-term effects on the immune system". This is merely a short term grouping of infections, in his opinion.

[Ymx]

Purely accidental posting. The rest is here

Take, for example, group A strep, a bacterial infection more commonly known as scarlet fever. There have been more than ten times the average number of cases this winter season. These aren’t always problematic and generally cause just a sore throat and flu-like symptoms. But if the infection comes after the body has just fought a virus – any one of many in circulation at the moment – the body finds it harder to fight off, says Professor Neil Mabbott, who specialises in immunopathology at the University of Edinburgh.

About 30 children are known to have died from this invasive form of group A strep.

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‘It’s possible there’s piggy-backing, where a secondary bacterial infection takes hold after a virus and causes more damage,’ Prof Mabbott adds. ‘Or it may be a more serious strain. We just don’t know.’

Another unusual illness affecting children has been hepatitis, an inflammatory liver condition normally caused by a virus, alcohol abuse or other toxins. There were 274 cases of the condition in children under 16 between January and July 2022 – which led to 15 needing a liver transplant. This compares with just six cases in April 2021.

Experts believe that the condition may have been triggered by children becoming infected with two viruses at once – adenovirus, a common respiratory bug, and another called AAV2, which alone is typically harmless.

Other explanations have also been cited, including the lowered immunity which children are facing due to lockdowns, the wave of adenovirus infections in the wake of Covid measures being lifted and changes to the pattern of how viruses usually circulate.

But Prof Mabbott is not convinced of long-term repercussions for children’s immune systems.

‘It’s likely, as we move forward, things will return to a more normal, seasonal pattern,’ he says. ‘There’s no evidence for longer-term effects on the immune system.’

Arabella Skinner, a director at children’s campaign group Us For Them, said: ‘By autumn 2020, the Government knew the damage children had suffered and chose to sacrifice their wellbeing for the rest of society. We need to make sure that, in the future, any decisions regarding children and school closures must be accompanied by a proper risk/benefit analysis.

‘Knowing what we know now, can they honestly say it was worth it?’