What is wrong with English rugby?

[Torquemada 1420]

After sockwithaticket's comment about being happy that the Welsh are down the toilet, I wondered what thoughts are because it isn't good for the game to have so many big names struggling: Wales, Aus and England. I don't think it's a natural balance i.e. "but Ire and Fra are better now and so overall it's about the same". It's absolutely not good for rugby and whilst hammering Eng this season was funny, were that to become some kind of regular thing, it would devalue any wins. We could see no Eng sides in the semis in Europe this season: when did that last happen?

Aus and Wal are easily explained although a large part of it down to opposite policies: Aus expanding to too many Soup teams whilst the WRU was culling its player pool.

When Fra was sh*t for, well, forever, it was easy to explain the multifarious factors causing it and actually, many of these remain to some degree:
- lack of professionalism even when they were being paid in shamateurism days e.g. fitness, training. Even today skills such as under the high ball aren't properly practised.
- the Fre mentality. That character mindset with its mix of inferiority complex (I remember watching a doco of famous old pros and they really did pretty much put most of it down to being victimised by Eng speaking countries), temper/lack of discipline and the Penaud "f**k it, who cares anyway?". Rugby is a game that requires an Anglo mindset and it's taken Eng speaking coaches to shift this. Even today, most clubs don't have a sports psycholgist!
- structure. There are still too many games but in a pro era, the old SW dominance could not continue. Sadly the heartlands are largely dead. Sides like Beziers, Tarbes, Daz, Narbonne, Colomiers, Biarritz, Lourdes, Montauban have all shrunk into the minor leagues yet all have been past champions and/or gone far in Europe. Instead, the money has talked and now its Toulon, Montpellier, Paris, LOU etc there as major conurbations.
- too many foreigners in the club game. This change alone is the single, biggest impact on Fre fortunes. In the Ux teams now, you'll regularly see half the players being T14 starters.

Back to Eng and none of this stuff maps over to explain their demise. Is it as simple as money? Prem is in the sh*t with all reports showing it's unsustainable and 2 clubs already folded. Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng? That alone cannot explain an apparent decline in skills across the piece right the way down to the Ux teams?

[Slick]

Like most things in rugby, probably just cyclical.

Rugby shouldn’t be pro

[ASMO]

After sockwithaticket's comment about being happy that the Welsh are down the toilet, I wondered what thoughts are because it isn't good for the game to have so many big names struggling: Wales, Aus and England. I don't think it's a natural balance i.e. "but Ire and Fra are better now and so overall it's about the same". It's absolutely not good for rugby and whilst hammering Eng this season was funny, were that to become some kind of regular thing, it would devalue any wins. We could see no Eng sides in the semis in Europe this season: when did that last happen?

Aus and Wal are easily explained although a large part of it down to opposite policies: Aus expanding to too many Soup teams whilst the WRU was culling its player pool.

When Fra was sh*t for, well, forever, it was easy to explain the multifarious factors causing it and actually, many of these remain to some degree:
- lack of professionalism even when they were being paid in shamateurism days e.g. fitness, training. Even today skills such as under the high ball aren't properly practised.
- the Fre mentality. That character mindset with its mix of inferiority complex (I remember watching a doco of famous old pros and they really did pretty much put most of it down to being victimised by Eng speaking countries), temper/lack of discipline and the Penaud "f**k it, who cares anyway?". Rugby is a game that requires an Anglo mindset and it's taken Eng speaking coaches to shift this. Even today, most clubs don't have a sports psycholgist!
- structure. There are still too many games but in a pro era, the old SW dominance could not continue. Sadly the heartlands are largely dead. Sides like Beziers, Tarbes, Daz, Narbonne, Colomiers, Biarritz, Lourdes, Montauban have all shrunk into the minor leagues yet all have been past champions and/or gone far in Europe. Instead, the money has talked and now its Toulon, Montpellier, Paris, LOU etc there as major conurbations.
- too many foreigners in the club game. This change alone is the single, biggest impact on Fre fortunes. In the Ux teams now, you'll regularly see half the players being T14 starters.

Back to Eng and none of this stuff maps over to explain their demise. Is it as simple as money? Prem is in the sh*t with all reports showing it's unsustainable and 2 clubs already folded. Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng? That alone cannot explain an apparent decline in skills across the piece right the way down to the Ux teams?

Lack of coaching of basic skills and now its all about "the process". In England it has become a game about numbers and statistics, most of the creativity has been coached out of them, someone who thinks outside of the box, does something unexpected is considered a maverick and not a team player, Cipriani and Smith, 2 of the most natually gifted 10's England has produced for a long time were/are being completely wasted.

[Paddington Bear]

Slick’s right. English sides have won 4 of the last 7 Champions Cups, we have won 3 of the last 7 6N, four years ago we were heavy favourites to finish the job and win the WC, and our record against the SH sides is pretty enviable even accounting for Ireland and France being historically well above their level against them recently (France lost their last series in Oz IIRC, England won theirs).

It may well be that Sarries and Exeter crash out this weekend, but if both win I believe we’re guaranteed and English finalist.

Leinster are a freak, they are basically producing the entire Irish set up and are playing at not far off test match intensity. English clubs have always struggled against the top Irish province when they’re on form, fond memories of Stuart Barnes commentating with a hand down his trousers at Thomond Park surface.

[Torquemada 1420]

Lack of coaching of basic skills and now its all about "the process". In England it has become a game about numbers and statistics, most of the creativity has been coached out of them, someone who thinks outside of the box, does something unexpected is considered a maverick and not a team player, Cipriani and Smith, 2 of the most natually gifted 10's England has produced for a long time were/are being completely wasted.

Playing devil's advocate, Leinster are coached by Lancaster and Baxter has led Exeter to an HEC win recently. I'd argue Fre coaching is worse but the picture there is more complex.

Also, not trusting players is also true which is why Macalou and Jalibert don't get game time under Galthie who is all about the process too. I accept that it's easier currently for Fra to hide those failings.

{EDIT} I think what I'm trying to say is that being focused on processes (being ultra conservative like Galthie or Jones) explains why flair players are not selected but it does not explain lack of basic skill sets which must go way deeper: even down to schools?

[Torquemada 1420]

Like most things in rugby, probably just cyclical.

Rugby shouldn’t be pro

Or at least the players should not expect to be paid superstar wages like other sports.

[Simian]

We could see no Eng sides in the semis in Europe this season: when did that last happen?

Assuming you mean the champions cup, last two seasons, I think?

[sockwithaticket]

When it comes to Europe, we now have half the spending power of the French teams, which compromises squad depth and the number of absolutely top players a squad can accommodate while still being big enough to get through the season. What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

Until one of those factors changes I suspect we won't see any English teams make it past the quarter final stage.

Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng?

As for this, well we see he's not as smart as BT seem to think every time they fawningly mention his politics degree. Between France's JIFF regulations and Japan's foreign player restrictions (80% of a Top League squad has to be a Category A player, which is to say Japanese. Not even Japan eligible, that's covered by Category B), there are not many better paying opportunities abroad even if English players don't want to stay and play in the Prem. Those limited spots are also being contested by the best and very good of the rest of the world.

[dpedin]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

[Margin__Walker]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

You're really not describing many (if any) of the current club owners there. They are mostly moderately (or very in a few cases) wealthy blokes ploughing money in because they like the sport with little expectation of a windfall as a result.

[Paddington Bear]

When it comes to Europe, we now have half the spending power of the French teams, which compromises squad depth and the number of absolutely top players a squad can accommodate while still being big enough to get through the season. What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

Until one of those factors changes I suspect we won't see any English teams make it past the quarter final stage.

Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng?

As for this, well we see he's not as smart as BT seem to think every time they fawningly mention his politics degree. Between France's JIFF regulations and Japan's foreign player restrictions (80% of a Top League squad has to be a Category A player, which is to say Japanese. Not even Japan eligible, that's covered by Category B), there are not many better paying opportunities abroad even if English players don't want to stay and play in the Prem. Those limited spots are also being contested by the best and very good of the rest of the world.

Itoje and Smith who seem to be pushing this are more than capable of getting a lucrative deal in France, they don’t give a shit about the wider implications.

[SaintK]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

That's just bollocks, though I'm sure you think it's true. The only only one I can recall being involved in soccer was Sir John Hall and he owned Newcastle Utd before he bought into Falcons.
Those coming anywhere near your description are Ashley Levett who fucked over Richmond in the late 1990's and the asset stripping bastards who did for Warriors. The rest have mainly invested because of their love of the game.
Otherwise the rest of your post is reasonably accurate

[Margin__Walker]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

[Punter15]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

This is the correct answer.

[sockwithaticket]

When it comes to Europe, we now have half the spending power of the French teams, which compromises squad depth and the number of absolutely top players a squad can accommodate while still being big enough to get through the season. What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

Until one of those factors changes I suspect we won't see any English teams make it past the quarter final stage.

Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng?

As for this, well we see he's not as smart as BT seem to think every time they fawningly mention his politics degree. Between France's JIFF regulations and Japan's foreign player restrictions (80% of a Top League squad has to be a Category A player, which is to say Japanese. Not even Japan eligible, that's covered by Category B), there are not many better paying opportunities abroad even if English players don't want to stay and play in the Prem. Those limited spots are also being contested by the best and very good of the rest of the world.

Itoje and Smith who seem to be pushing this are more than capable of getting a lucrative deal in France, they don’t give a shit about the wider implications.

They are, but they're in a very select group for whom that's the case, so Maro may not want to proffer many generalisations.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

You're really not describing many (if any) of the current club owners there. They are mostly moderately (or very in a few cases) wealthy blokes ploughing money in because they like the sport with little expectation of a windfall as a result.

Also, name a sport which doesn't have wages drawing too great a % of revenues?

It's not a rugby problem, or an English rugby problem. It's a norm, though yes if one could resolve it the game would be in ruder financial health

[Prembore]

Not in a great place at the moment but even if there was a more union controlled or consolidated model that we'd somehow adopted in 1995, that would be no guarantee of success, as the basket cases in our nearest neighbours testify.

[paddyor]

I think it's a little overdone, they got 3 sides to the qfs like, but the salary cap cuts and the bankruptcy of the 2 clubs with rumours swriling about Newcastle and LI can't be nice. I don't know what the add ons are but they're operating at .5m more than the Welsh sides.

[JM2K6]

Let's just focus on making English rugby sustainable before we start caring too much about our performances in the laughably named Champions Cup, where inequality is laid bare and which doesn't really matter to the followers of most club sides for most of the year. Europe is a sideshow compared to the health of the premiership.

[Biffer]

The biggest market for rugby is France. Biggest TV contract, biggest domestic league. Probably good for the game for them to be one of the best sides in the World.

[CM11]

Not in a great place at the moment but even if there was a more union controlled or consolidated model that we'd somehow adopted in 1995, that would be no guarantee of success, as the basket cases in our nearest neighbours testify.

Wales?

They're not Union led. That's part of their problem.

[Torquemada 1420]

We could see no Eng sides in the semis in Europe this season: when did that last happen?

Assuming you mean the champions cup, last two seasons, I think?

No: I meant across both comps.

[Uncle fester]

Won 4 of the last 7 but their game is in crisis.

[Prembore]

Not in a great place at the moment but even if there was a more union controlled or consolidated model that we'd somehow adopted in 1995, that would be no guarantee of success, as the basket cases in our nearest neighbours testify.

Wales?

They're not Union led. That's part of their problem.

What with the WRU being such a bastion of good governance, you mean? Wales consolidated to five and then four from a league of over double that, it hasn't really yielded a great return, has it? You'd have expected the concentration of talent if nothing else to have had some sort of positive effect but I don't see it.

I wouldn't say the Scottish set up has blazed a trail of unrivalled glory either.

[paddyor]

Won 4 of the last 7 but their game is in crisis.

I think it’s a little overdone. But they’ve lost 2 clubs in quick succession and they’re now losing a lot of England players to France.

[sockwithaticket]

Won 4 of the last 7 but their game is in crisis.

I think it’s a little overdone. But they’ve lost 2 clubs in quick succession and they’re now losing a lot of England players to France.

We're really not.

[Paddington Bear]

I suppose the other question is whether calling England the richest Union is still accurate. The RFU may be richer than the FFR but that’s largely because they own a massive asset

[Niegs]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

I've wondered if Prem teams would be better off with a stronger American baseball-style 'farm team' system? Smaller squad, able to call up promising players from their aligned Championship team? I imagine it happens... I recall hearing of players 'dual contracted' but to what degree? Always seemed to be youngsters, too, when surely there are some wise 'old' late 20-somethings who wouldn't disappoint when called up for a stint in the Prem.

[CM11]

Not in a great place at the moment but even if there was a more union controlled or consolidated model that we'd somehow adopted in 1995, that would be no guarantee of success, as the basket cases in our nearest neighbours testify.

Wales?

They're not Union led. That's part of their problem.

What with the WRU being such a bastion of good governance, you mean? Wales consolidated to five and then four from a league of over double that, it hasn't really yielded a great return, has it? You'd have expected the concentration of talent if nothing else to have had some sort of positive effect but I don't see it.

I wouldn't say the Scottish set up has blazed a trail of unrivalled glory either.

Either way, the problem in Wales is the regions and WRU constantly fighting each other. It's not the same system as Ireland. Basically the WRU is made up of amateur club members. The regions are run alongside the WRU with previously no regional representatives in the WRU. Over here the clubs provide members to the provincial branches who provide members to the IRFU so the provinces are always represented at the highest level. We also gave over a lot of the governance to professionals whereas I think the WRU still has blazers running it for the most part. It leads to a disconnect and it's the same disconnect in England with both sides pulling in different directions rather than towards a common cause. Both Wales and England want their regions/clubs to be treated as equals to the international game, in the same way the soccer clubs are (well, the clubs are top of the pile there) rather than accept a top down approach. In England's case, the crowds aren't there, IMO, to have such lofty ambitions but they could at least aim for it. Wales should be accepting a top down, full stop.

[Biffer]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

I've wondered if Prem teams would be better off with a stronger American baseball-style 'farm team' system? Smaller squad, able to call up promising players from their aligned Championship team? I imagine it happens... I recall hearing of players 'dual contracted' but to what degree? Always seemed to be youngsters, too, when surely there are some wise 'old' late 20-somethings who wouldn't disappoint when called up for a stint in the Prem.

Baseball can do that as its far less of a team sport. Most of baseball is individual talent. So you can jump players in and out easily and the only team play is about defensive alignments in the outfield. So unless you could get all the farm teams playing the same scheme defensively and on attack, which would be kind of weird when they were playing each other, it'd be very difficult.

[petej]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

I've wondered if Prem teams would be better off with a stronger American baseball-style 'farm team' system? Smaller squad, able to call up promising players from their aligned Championship team? I imagine it happens... I recall hearing of players 'dual contracted' but to what degree? Always seemed to be youngsters, too, when surely there are some wise 'old' late 20-somethings who wouldn't disappoint when called up for a stint in the Prem.

They kind of do that at anyrate. Club rugby in England is much more like American sports and set to making the league competitive. This levelling of teams also leads to much more player movement so less continuity. It was Saracens being able to hoard/hold and acquire talent that made it was obvious that they were breaking the rules in the premiership (note-they broke no rules at all in European comps). We've also kind of messed up a cycle which happens. I forgot the game was on yesterday which shows how interested I am in whatever they've done to the euro comps.

[Uncle fester]

English team in semi final so presume the bleating can stop now?

[Uncle fester]

No SA teams though so presume the crisis moves over to them?

[Ted.]

You sold your rugby souls to a bunch of mostly thieves, con men, and dodgy venture/disaster capitalists who couldn't afford or weren't allowed to buy a soccer team and who then tried to compete financially with the mega rich French and got the clubs into huge debt. Couple this with a RFU run by blazers who disliked the commercialisation of the leagues and are more interested in the quality of the post match meal than the financial health of the game and disaster was inevitable. Covid brought it to a head more quickly than it would have done otherwise. Sort out the financials, structures and the governance and the players/game will sort itself out.

You're really not describing many (if any) of the current club owners there. They are mostly moderately (or very in a few cases) wealthy blokes ploughing money in because they like the sport with little expectation of a windfall as a result.

The rot had set in by then though. You can't leave rot in place, it must be cut out, treated and strengthened or replaced entirely.

Unfortunately, we also have an unhealthy mix of self serving blazers and self serving commercialism for commercialisms sake in WR. Once schools and old boys stop being interested in the game, once the amateur game goes down the toilet, it is truly fucked without that support.

[TheNatalShark]

What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

A casual outside reminder this is the England playing pool being talked about, those silly numbers of active players aside, England literally has more than 4 times as many professional players available with tremendous depth from semi and amateurs vs Sco/Ire/Wal. Talent concentration really isn't a suitable woe is me excuse as the proportions are more than adequately covered.

[Niegs]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

I've wondered if Prem teams would be better off with a stronger American baseball-style 'farm team' system? Smaller squad, able to call up promising players from their aligned Championship team? I imagine it happens... I recall hearing of players 'dual contracted' but to what degree? Always seemed to be youngsters, too, when surely there are some wise 'old' late 20-somethings who wouldn't disappoint when called up for a stint in the Prem.

Baseball can do that as its far less of a team sport. Most of baseball is individual talent. So you can jump players in and out easily and the only team play is about defensive alignments in the outfield. So unless you could get all the farm teams playing the same scheme defensively and on attack, which would be kind of weird when they were playing each other, it'd be very difficult.

Fair shout on baseball ... but don't all rugby teams these days just play pods of three crash balls, or out the back to spin it to the wing ad nauseam anyway?

[Torquemada 1420]

When it comes to Europe, we now have half the spending power of the French teams, which compromises squad depth and the number of absolutely top players a squad can accommodate while still being big enough to get through the season. What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

Until one of those factors changes I suspect we won't see any English teams make it past the quarter final stage.

Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng?

As for this, well we see he's not as smart as BT seem to think every time they fawningly mention his politics degree. Between France's JIFF regulations and Japan's foreign player restrictions (80% of a Top League squad has to be a Category A player, which is to say Japanese. Not even Japan eligible, that's covered by Category B), there are not many better paying opportunities abroad even if English players don't want to stay and play in the Prem. Those limited spots are also being contested by the best and very good of the rest of the world.

I thought about this and I don't think you are suggesting concentrating into fewer sides in Eng, but it probably wouldn't work. Those other countries are small and so fewer sides can represent enough regions to keep the pyramid from top down going. I accept that Wales has nothing in the North but that wasn't a rugby heartland and also Wales has actually broken the model in having too few teams anyway. So, if Eng only had, say, 6 teams, I think the structure would collapse from the bottom up with kids (to begin with) finding other interests.

[Torquemada 1420]

No SA teams though so presume the crisis moves over to them?

Aside from your silliness, there is no reason more than one rugby nation couldn't be in difficulty at the same time. Soup as screwed SA rugby at "club" level and it's still trying to find a way out. What SA does have is a huge playing pool and a big audience and so even when their sides were routinely last in Soup, they were still competitive at intl level. Personally, I think they have to decide how they are going to manage a domestic comp (Currie) alongside something else (Soup/URC) because the same problem has almost crippled NPC in NZ.

[Paddington Bear]

What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

A casual outside reminder this is the England playing pool being talked about, those silly numbers of active players aside, England literally has more than 4 times as many professional players available with tremendous depth from semi and amateurs vs Sco/Ire/Wal. Talent concentration really isn't a suitable woe is me excuse as the proportions are more than adequately covered.

These numbers create a floor rather than guaranteeing success, we just produce more players of the same standard. If I were to name an England side of people not used and in most cases not even considered this season I could get something like:
15 Goode
14 Radwan
13 Lozowski
12 Dingwall
11 Lewington
10 Smith (F)
9 Randall
1 Marler
2 Thacker
3 Collier
4 Atwood
5 Tizard
6 Martin
7 Pearson
8 Ewers

This isn’t a side that’s striking fear into the world game, but I’d bet good money it would have had a very similar 6N to the side we put out and I’d bet the house it would absolutely thump the equivalent Scottish/Welsh/Irish 4th/5th XV equivalent. That’s what the player pool gives us rather than non stop talent.

A few other considerations:
1) the English system produces more players who are qualified for other nations than any other
2) rugby is a minority sport in England, meaning outside of private schools the talent pool is feeding off scraps. This isn’t unique, but I’d argue competing directly with the Premier League is a major point of difference that works against us and our national rugby team is not unique in giving us a chance to compete at the top of world sport, creating fewer national moments.
3) our private schools are much more focussed on cricket than rugby by and large, when compared to what’s going on round Dublin.

[_Os_]

No SA teams though so presume the crisis moves over to them?

Aside from your silliness, there is no reason more than one rugby nation couldn't be in difficulty at the same time. Soup as screwed SA rugby at "club" level and it's still trying to find a way out. What SA does have is a huge playing pool and a big audience and so even when their sides were routinely last in Soup, they were still competitive at intl level. Personally, I think they have to decide how they are going to manage a domestic comp (Currie) alongside something else (Soup/URC) because the same problem has almost crippled NPC in NZ.

URC level - Super Rugby as it was ended because the relationship became unworkable, especially between SA and Aus. Too many cooks demanding too many ingredients go into the pot. The best solution imo was the one offered by SARU, that each conference be self contained only playing against other teams in that conference, which then qualified teams for a Super Rugby round, this was rejected for the mess Super Rugby became. That mess then failed, and it went back to a Super 12 style format but with 15 sides, and SA somehow ended up with 4 sides only (we ended up in the position we held during Super 12 but with more travel, the last time SA had only 4 sides was in 2005), SARU then put the Cheetahs and Kings into the Pro, and gave up trying to negotiate.

My preferred option would've been a heavily expanded Super Rugby using the format SARU offered (that format was the only one capable of handling something really adventurous like 20+ teams from SA/Aus/NZ/Arg/Jap/PIs), but that's never going to happen because the only thing the Aussies want from Super Rugby is an unsustainable amount of Aussie sides who are beaten by the Kiwis every weekend.

URC has gone way better than most expected. Needs more time to see how the finances and structure pan out. The goal beyond just providing a tournament has to be bringing in enough revenue to keep more players in SA, the money generating part of SANZAAR is the RC, Super Rugby was always quite poor at adding value in terms of cash. I'm preferring the URC to the Champions/Challenge, URC has a more Super Rugby feel where you get to know each side as the season progresses and learn all their players through seasons, in the Champions/Challenge I've sometimes had no clue if the SA team was even facing a full strength opponent.

CC level - Important for SARU's strategy. NZ opted to concentrate finances very heavily towards keeping their top ABs, SARU opted for the opposite strategy of having as many pro teams/players as possible and not breaking the bank to pay market rate keeping all the best in SA. SARU is pursuing a production strategy. Now all the pro comps below test level overlap, CC has become a lot more even and minnow provinces have a chance of winning (because top provinces can't always use their URC/Champions/Challenge squads). It's increasing the amount of players that are getting exposed to something meaningful, and could add a lot more depth. Most Saturdays there's pro SA teams playing all day in a variety of comps, that was never the case during Super Rugby, some weekends all your viewing could be over by about midday and you only saw three SA sides play. Now there's the 8 CC teams and the 5 teams in European comps (URC teams + Cheetahs).

Overall - I'm sure there's going to be problems that emerge and it all needs to be financially viable (one issue is fixture clashes in the URC when two SA sides are playing foreign teams at the same time, SA fans like to watch every match SA teams play if they have the time, regardless of if they support them). But so far it looks like an upgrade in terms of finances/structure compared to where Super Rugby ended up for us. I am watching more, so I guess others are. I can't see us ever going back to Super Rugby, we always seemed to end up getting the worst deal out of it compared to Aus and NZ. If the URC fails, then I would support a 10 side CC ahead of returning to Super Rugby, I would be prepared to take the hit of having no international element to domestic rugby just to avoid all that bullshit again.