Supe Rugby Law - new card protocol - review?

[Ymx]

I managed to have missed most of the supe so far, annoyingly.

How is the new protocol going?

I saw this incident, and was gobsmacked it was just a yellow until I remembered the new system.

Could it be in for the RWC?

[SaintK]

The dirty bastard should getg an extra 8 weeks for laughing about it and thinking it was funny

[CM11]

Hey, at least he attempted to wrap!

[Grandpa]

Upgraded to a red card during the ten minutes so right decision in the end.. I like the system... stops the ref taking ages to decide...

[CM11]

Upgraded to a red card during the ten minutes so right decision in the end.. I like the system... stops the ref taking ages to decide...

Remind me what that means? They're doing the 20 minute bin/back to 15 too, yeah? Or straight red?

[Ymx]

I guess it gives the crowds a chance to calm down, takes a hell of a lot of pressure off the ref.

After the TMO ruling has occurred, are you given the reason on screen why it’s a red or a yellow.

Ie
Force
No mitigation
Red

[Ymx]

Upgraded to a red card during the ten minutes so right decision in the end.. I like the system... stops the ref taking ages to decide...

Remind me what that means? They're doing the 20 minute bin/back to 15 too, yeah? Or straight red?

Two types of red.

Super Rugby to trial Yellow Card upgrade process for 2023
14/02/2023 Ref 4

-Yellow Card TMO reviews will take place after sanctioned players leave the field – upgrades possible to 20min red card
-TMO interruptions will be restricted to serious clear and obvious dangerous play
-Time limits will be enforced for kicks at goal, lineouts, scrums and rucks
-Scrum half no follow round at scrum
-Golden point (in 10min extra time) for drawn matches

Super Rugby has announced a series of law innovations for the upcoming season which starts on 24 February. The eye catcher is a new Red Card route which will see most serious incidents being reviewed by the TMO and being upgraded from a Yellow Card to a Red card if the on-field teams can’t make a quick decision after one or two looks. Super Rugby bosses want to stop multiple replays being examined multiple times, taking multiple minutes by the referee, ARs and TMOs.

In a shift from previous seasons however, not all red cards will see a 20 minute replacement. Serious acts of foul play will lead to permanent exclusion, but any Yellow Card getting an upgrade will become a 20 minute red card as before with numbers retained at 15 a side for more of the game. The upgrade will be confirmed to sidelines, stadium fans and to broadcasters. The ‘how’ is still being worked on.

Speaking to the media today, former Super Rugby referee, now high performance referee coach, Mike Fraser said explained that they expect all bar the rare, traditional acts of gratuitous foul play to be dealt with in this way during the trial. There is a hope that the referee will be able to get to speedy decisions, before being reviewed and confirmed by the TMO over an eight minute window if needed, ready for a sin-bin player to return. In Super Rugby, there will be a pool of TMOs as well as the referee group who will be used on occasion. Expect to see regular names such as Australia’s Brett Cronin and James Leckie and NZ’s Brendon Pickerill, Glenn Newman, Chris Hart, Shane McDermott and Richard Kelly all in the truck making these calls.

In the briefing, Fraser did confirm a second pair eyes would be alongside the TMO to ensure that the game was being monitored when the TMO was reviewing any yellow cards.

https://rugbyreferee.net/2023/02/14/new ... 23-season/

[Ymx]

It sounds like a bloody decent system.

[Niegs]

Not a bad system, but couldn't have been more clear cut on a quick review.

And did he come back after 20mins or does that allow the team to bring someone else on?

Agree with the plum needing a long ban. There's no real punishment / disincentive on reckless challenges in this to him otherwise. (The way things are going, I expect him to say 'Sowy!' at a hearing, attend a course on things he already knows, being a pro forward, and be back in a week or two. )

[CM11]

OK, so if you get a yellow it can only be upgraded to 20 min red?

Only the ref can give permanent red?

[ASMO]

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

[Ymx]

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

I think the ref knew it was probably a red, but just wanted to get on with the game, and make use of this process.

He quickly ascertained it was a yellow plus, and hence gave a yellow with the review.

I assume a red can’t be downgraded to a yellow by the TMO, just in case something unusual comes out in the fine detail of the replays. Eg if it was a trip, or shoulder contact rather than head contact.

[Jb1981]

Not a bad system, but couldn't have been more clear cut on a quick review.

And did he come back after 20mins or does that allow the team to bring someone else on?

Agree with the plum needing a long ban. There's no real punishment / disincentive on reckless challenges in this to him otherwise. (The way things are going, I expect him to say 'Sowy!' at a hearing, attend a course on things he already knows, being a pro forward, and be back in a week or two. )

The red carded player stays off if it’s a twenty minute red - the team then can bring on a different player after that time and return to 15 on the field.

[Guy Smiley]

How many times do we have to discuss this in here?

It’s simple and basic…
Ref issued an on field YC and the TMO has 8 minutes to review and inform the ref whether it’s upgradable to RC. Captains are informed at the YC that the review is pending and again if it’s upgraded. That player is off for the game and the team can replace him after the 20 min is served.

[Enzedder]

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

I think the ref knew it was probably a red, but just wanted to get on with the game, and make use of this process.

He quickly ascertained it was a yellow plus, and hence gave a yellow with the review.

I assume a red can’t be downgraded to a yellow by the TMO, just in case something unusual comes out in the fine detail of the replays. Eg if it was a trip, or shoulder contact rather than head contact.

Exactly this - the ref knew it was quite probably a red but let someone else check while he gets on with it. (I reckon it was a botched charge down)

Love the new system - Wayne Barnes wouldn't have it because he's always correct and wants to be in charge.

[lemonhead]

Obviously feels a bit odd and certain posters initially went on about enforcing the laws properly, stop changing shit, should be refs call yada ya.

But with media punditry and literally thousands of fans ready to take you to pieces for 'ruining the game' and a crowd baying for blood if you do or don't make the right decision this is about as good a compromise as there is.

Refs are human and subject to huge pressures out there - see Barnes got mentioned, he's a very good ref but also a serial bottler at times over the years.

Bring it on, I say.

[Uncle fester]

Remember when we said players would kill opposite team members because the penalty was only going to be a 20 min red card?

[Grandpa]

Remember when we said players would kill opposite team members because the penalty was only going to be a 20 min red card?

How many deaths so far?

[MungoMan]

Remember when we said players would kill opposite team members because the penalty was only going to be a 20 min red card?

How many deaths so far?

Must be hundreds by now.

Poster after poster from wendyball countries assured us multiple fatalities would be the inevitable outcome.

[earl the beaver]

I kind of like the idea behind saving time but 20 minute red cards a nonsense and got roundly voted down by the non sanzar nations. So that bit definitely won't be there. Only other issue is TMO being sole judge of red cards, with current system, a team of 4 officials watches the incident and discusses it.

[Grandpa]

Remember when we said players would kill opposite team members because the penalty was only going to be a 20 min red card?

How many deaths so far?

Must be hundreds by now.

Poster after poster from wendyball countries assured us multiple fatalities would be the inevitable outcome.

Yep, hopefully will become the norm, despite the resistance up north, with the option for permanent reds as well...

[MungoMan]

I kind of like the idea behind saving time but 20 minute red cards a nonsense and got roundly voted down by the non sanzar nations. So that bit definitely won't be there. Only other issue is TMO being sole judge of red cards, with current system, a team of 4 officials watches the incident and discusses it.

So the wendyball countries didn’t like it?

Cry me a fucken river.

When you mob have managed to amass a total of two RWC trophies, get back to me..

[Monkey Magic]

A couple of tweaks I'd like to see for this is:
Use a central team each competition weekend of 2-3 refs to watch a whole weekend of competition - this means the tmo at the game can continue monitoring play as its happening. Hopefully it also results in some consistency.

Allow them to upgrade to full red. In that instance it's great the ref could get the scum off the field and keep playing, but a challenge that bad needs the team to stay at 14

[CM11]

A couple of tweaks I'd like to see for this is:
Use a central team each competition weekend of 2-3 refs to watch a whole weekend of competition - this means the tmo at the game can continue monitoring play as its happening. Hopefully it also results in some consistency.

Allow them to upgrade to full red. In that instance it's great the ref could get the scum off the field and keep playing, but a challenge that bad needs the team to stay at 14

This was the point made if they wanted to make it global. There's not enough refs to implement it at every game so they'll need a central team able to cover more than one game a weekend.

[Monkey Magic]

A couple of tweaks I'd like to see for this is:
Use a central team each competition weekend of 2-3 refs to watch a whole weekend of competition - this means the tmo at the game can continue monitoring play as its happening. Hopefully it also results in some consistency.

Allow them to upgrade to full red. In that instance it's great the ref could get the scum off the field and keep playing, but a challenge that bad needs the team to stay at 14

This was the point made if they wanted to make it global. There's not enough refs to implement it at every game so they'll need a central team able to cover more than one game a weekend.

Ideally they'd just focus on foul play but once they started I'm sure they would takeover all tmo duties.

[Flockwitt]

I'm a big fan of the yellow then off field review. Far better that everybody, the players, the ref and the fans, just get on with the game.

[Guy Smiley]

I'm a big fan of the yellow then off field review. Far better that everybody, the players, the ref and the fans, just get on with the game.

It destroys the traditions of the game though, if the crowd don't get to enjoy the sight of a ref and 2 assistants standing together looking at the big screen while gesticulating and appearing to speak to thin air for anywhere between 3 and 7 minutes.

[JM2K6]

I kind of like the idea behind saving time but 20 minute red cards a nonsense and got roundly voted down by the non sanzar nations. So that bit definitely won't be there. Only other issue is TMO being sole judge of red cards, with current system, a team of 4 officials watches the incident and discusses it.

So the wendyball countries didn’t like it?

Cry me a fucken river.

When you mob have managed to amass a total of two RWC trophies, get back to me..

Ideally we'd prefer it if the players who won those trophies could remember doing so by the time they hit 50, tbf

[sockwithaticket]

Does the ref make some sort of formal announcement once the TMO decides something needs to be upgraded to a red?

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

Quite. I can understand using this to refer a borderline call, but that was about as red as it gets and leaving it up to review basically points to an end of refs making that sort of decision on field.


I could be amenable to this referral system, but I'm not ok with refs using it as an opportunity not to make calls or 20 minute reds.

[CM11]

Does the ref make some sort of formal announcement once the TMO decides something needs to be upgraded to a red?

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

Quite. I can understand using this to refer a borderline call, but that was about as red as it gets and leaving it up to review basically points to an end of refs making that sort of decision on field.


I could be amenable to this referral system, but I'm not ok with refs using it as an opportunity not to make calls or 20 minute reds.

Can the ref give a 20 mln red?

[Grandpa]

Does the ref make some sort of formal announcement once the TMO decides something needs to be upgraded to a red?

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

Quite. I can understand using this to refer a borderline call, but that was about as red as it gets and leaving it up to review basically points to an end of refs making that sort of decision on field.


I could be amenable to this referral system, but I'm not ok with refs using it as an opportunity not to make calls or 20 minute reds.

They do make an announcement... the ref tells both teams that a yellow carded player is either returning as a yellow card allows, or has been upgraded to red.

Sadly Angus Blyth only got a 3 match ban for that horrendous charge down/head clash. The bans have to be much longer if they want to eradicate this sort of behaviour.

[LoveOfTheGame]

That was a clear red, why would he need to refer that? That player should have been sent off and not be replaced after 20min. In saying that, I do see the merits of this system working, but it should not and cannot lead to players abusing a system where weak referees aren't willing to make clear on field decisions for dangerous foul play. If I'm understanding correctly that would mean the player can be replaced after 20min. Don't like foul play being rewarded like that.

[Grandpa]

That was a clear red, why would he need to refer that? That player should have been sent off and not be replaced after 20min. In saying that, I do see the merits of this system working, but it should not and cannot lead to players abusing a system where weak referees aren't willing to make clear on field decisions for dangerous foul play. If I'm understanding correctly that would mean the player can be replaced after 20min. Don't like foul play being rewarded like that.

I don't mind if it saves time by the ref not seeing multiple angles etc... but during the ten minute TMO review, a permeant red should be on the table too... as well as the 20 minute red...

[LoveOfTheGame]

That was a clear red, why would he need to refer that? That player should have been sent off and not be replaced after 20min. In saying that, I do see the merits of this system working, but it should not and cannot lead to players abusing a system where weak referees aren't willing to make clear on field decisions for dangerous foul play. If I'm understanding correctly that would mean the player can be replaced after 20min. Don't like foul play being rewarded like that.

I don't mind if it saves time by the ref not seeing multiple angles etc... but during the ten minute TMO review, a permeant red should be on the table too... as well as the 20 minute red...

I would be happy with that, play goes on. But should it be red for dangerous play then the team should be down to 14 for the rest of the match.

[CM11]

If people want to preserve red for what red used to be for then you need to look at whether that would have been red 20 or even 10 years ago and I don't think it would have been. Benefit of the doubt would have been given that he was going for a block down and mistimed and head contact was purely accidental. Yes you could have had an argument for too reckless and a given ref might have seen it that way but reds were for clear acts of thuggery.

So what is and isn't red has changed massively over the last 10 years. Mostly for the better in terms of player safety but there is a place for not getting too caught up in yellow, orange, red on the day and leaving the punishment to the disciplinary panels. I don't buy the argument that you're going to have players taking one for the team. It's too vague and 20 mins down to 14 isn't inconsequential nor is losing one of your players for weeks. We've had quite a few cards given the wrong way recently too with reds given and then rescinded and yellows given only to be upgraded after the game. The 20 minute bin option seems to be a no brainer compromise.

[sockwithaticket]

Does the ref make some sort of formal announcement once the TMO decides something needs to be upgraded to a red?

How the hell did that even need a review, clear act of foul play, red all day, and not a 20 minute one either.

Quite. I can understand using this to refer a borderline call, but that was about as red as it gets and leaving it up to review basically points to an end of refs making that sort of decision on field.


I could be amenable to this referral system, but I'm not ok with refs using it as an opportunity not to make calls or 20 minute reds.

They do make an announcement... the ref tells both teams that a yellow carded player is either returning as a yellow card allows, or has been upgraded to red.

Sadly Angus Blyth only got a 3 match ban for that horrendous charge down/head clash. The bans have to be much longer if they want to eradicate this sort of behaviour.

This I definitely agree with, which could partly be achieved by not being so generous with mitigations taking weeks off. All the good conduct, admitted fault, showed remorse etc. should be standard and not used to cut weeks off a ban. Not displaying these things should leave the option to further increase bans. As for giving professional players the option to take off another week with so-called 'tackle school'...

Without wishing to delve too far off course, but Farrell's realtively recent ban is really instructive as to how nonsensical it all is.

Spoiler

Show

The infographic shows that they noted his incident as a repeat offence, yet it adds no weeks. So what's the point in officially noting it? Gah.

[Grandpa]

Does the ref make some sort of formal announcement once the TMO decides something needs to be upgraded to a red?



Quite. I can understand using this to refer a borderline call, but that was about as red as it gets and leaving it up to review basically points to an end of refs making that sort of decision on field.


I could be amenable to this referral system, but I'm not ok with refs using it as an opportunity not to make calls or 20 minute reds.

They do make an announcement... the ref tells both teams that a yellow carded player is either returning as a yellow card allows, or has been upgraded to red.

Sadly Angus Blyth only got a 3 match ban for that horrendous charge down/head clash. The bans have to be much longer if they want to eradicate this sort of behaviour.

This I definitely agree with, which could partly be achieved by not being so generous with mitigations taking weeks off. All the good conduct, admitted fault, showed remorse etc. should be standard and not used to cut weeks off a ban. Not displaying these things should leave the option to further increase bans. As for giving professional players the option to take off another week with so-called 'tackle school'...

Without wishing to delve too far off course, but Farrell's realtively recent ban is really instructive as to how nonsensical it all is.

Spoiler

Show

The infographic shows that they noted his incident as a repeat offence, yet it adds no weeks. So what's the point in officially noting it? Gah.

We seem to be seeing more and more yellow and red cards... but are we seeing less dangerous tackles? Has Farrell changed his behaviour? Have other players? Watching Super Rugby this weekend and there were so many tackles that were mm away from head clashes... so I'm not convinced players are actively changing their behaviour?

[sockwithaticket]

We seem to be seeing more and more yellow and red cards... but are we seeing less dangerous tackles? Has Farrell changed his behaviour? Have other players? Watching Super Rugby this weekend and there were so many tackles that were mm away from head clashes...
so I'm not convinced players are actively changing their behaviour?

Definitely not and I lay the blame with coaches and players. We often see bits of social media activity from current players like Anthony Watson, Joe Marler or Jack Nowell criticising card decisions in games they're obviously watching and we had several weeks back Les Kiss moaning about a card given against London Irish in his in-game interview, saying things that indicated they still train in ways that make these incidents likely to happen.

They all say the right things when prompted about player safety, but their actions and comments in the heat of the moment say otherwise.

They were quick enough to get rid of the lifting tackle from their repetoire, so we know they can correct behaviours if they want to, but it's clear that putting in big dominant hits and going high enough to prevent offloads is more important to them than player safety and the current sanctions for when they fuck it up are not sufficient to force a rethink.

I actually think the introduction of mitigation has made things worse. We had a couple of seasons where most hiugh shot incidents were given a red card and some of them looked really soft, but it felt like we were starting to see things change. Then World Rugby caved to the whinging from certain quarters and introduced the level of force/danger mitigations and players know they've a fairly good chance of just getting away with a yellow, which teams are very well set up to deal with in this day and age. Sometimes they still prove pivotal 10 minute periods in games, but much less frequently than they ever used to be. It's an acceptable risk to them.

[Marylandolorian]

I kind of like the idea behind saving time but 20 minute red cards a nonsense and got roundly voted down by the non sanzar nations. So that bit definitely won't be there. Only other issue is TMO being sole judge of red cards, with current system, a team of 4 officials watches the incident and discusses it.

So the wendyball countries didn’t like it?

Cry me a fucken river.

When you mob have managed to amass a total of two RWC trophies, get back to me..

Ideally we'd prefer it if the players who won those trophies could remember doing so by the time they hit 50, tbf

Steve Thomson :
“As many as 400 rugby players have died prematurely over the last 10 years from issues related to brain damage.’’

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... own-lives/

[CM11]

They do make an announcement... the ref tells both teams that a yellow carded player is either returning as a yellow card allows, or has been upgraded to red.

Sadly Angus Blyth only got a 3 match ban for that horrendous charge down/head clash. The bans have to be much longer if they want to eradicate this sort of behaviour.

This I definitely agree with, which could partly be achieved by not being so generous with mitigations taking weeks off. All the good conduct, admitted fault, showed remorse etc. should be standard and not used to cut weeks off a ban. Not displaying these things should leave the option to further increase bans. As for giving professional players the option to take off another week with so-called 'tackle school'...

Without wishing to delve too far off course, but Farrell's realtively recent ban is really instructive as to how nonsensical it all is.

Spoiler

Show

The infographic shows that they noted his incident as a repeat offence, yet it adds no weeks. So what's the point in officially noting it? Gah.

We seem to be seeing more and more yellow and red cards... but are we seeing less dangerous tackles? Has Farrell changed his behaviour? Have other players? Watching Super Rugby this weekend and there were so many tackles that were mm away from head clashes... so I'm not convinced players are actively changing their behaviour?

Some teams manage to avoid them for the most part so it seems it's not an unavoidable situation.