Who should be the All Blacks Captain?

Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:08 am

Fozzie is off his knockers, lets not deny a better player captaincy cause of Waikato bias, i prefer Whitelock with Ardie and Aaron as VC, why have a captain who can't even play the whole 80mins and is very likely to get injured in the first game.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:05 am

Dane Coles plz

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am

Kind of a dumb thread, we already know who it is.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:55 am

Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am Kind of a dumb thread, we already know who it is.

Indeed. The bloke who should be, already is.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 am

I maintain it should have been the 100 test All Black who has captained back-to-back-to-back SR titles, has a 100% win record as All Black captain, and just pulled the South out of the fire in the All Black trial, rather than the guy who, by this own selection team's admission, wasn't in the All Black's best XV in our most recent test.

Too late now though, I hope Captain Cane leads us through an era of unparalleled success.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:12 am

mrbrownstone wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 am I maintain it should have been the 100 test All Black who has captained back-to-back-to-back SR titles, has a 100% win record as All Black captain, and just pulled the South out of the fire in the All Black trial, not the guy who, by this own selection team's admission, wasn't in the All Black's best XV in our most recent test.

Too late now though, I hope Captain Cane leads us through an era of unparalleled success.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:18 am

By the way, since the start of 2018 the All Blacks played 24 tests . Cane only featured in 15 (62.5%), while Whitelock played in 21 (87.5%). Don't get me wrong, Cane is a fantastic player, but you don't really want your captain missing more than 2/3rds of your tests, which seems inevitable with his concussion history & playing style.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:30 am

I thought the coaches would have liked to offer it to Whitelock, but he has the option of a 1 year sabbatical before 2023 so isn’t a realistic choice for that reason.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:23 am

Whitelock should be captain but making a change now would be one of the dumbest decisions I’ve ever seen of any coach. Ever.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am

stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:08 am Fozzie is off his knockers, lets not deny a better player captaincy cause of Waikato bias, i prefer Whitelock with Ardie and Aaron as VC, why have a captain who can't even play the whole 80mins and is very likely to get injured in the first game.

Sam Cane is Bay Of Plenty - try again

Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:12 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am
stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:08 am Fozzie is off his knockers, lets not deny a better player captaincy cause of Waikato bias, i prefer Whitelock with Ardie and Aaron as VC, why have a captain who can't even play the whole 80mins and is very likely to get injured in the first game.
Sam Cane is Bay Of Plenty - try again

chiefs old fart, chiefs, a player he infact brought to the chiefs back in 2011

Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:30 am

Kiwias wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:12 am
mrbrownstone wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 am I maintain it should have been the 100 test All Black who has captained back-to-back-to-back SR titles, has a 100% win record as All Black captain, and just pulled the South out of the fire in the All Black trial, not the guy who, by this own selection team's admission, wasn't in the All Black's best XV in our most recent test.

Too late now though, I hope Captain Cane leads us through an era of unparalleled success.

+1.

I really hope Sam Cane takes advantage of this downtime because he was a shadow of himself during Super Rugby.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:05 am

The real answer is TJ Perenara

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 am

The only realistic option on that list which isn't Cane is Whitelock, and as someone mentioned he was meant to be on sabbatical which is a non starter for a captain

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 am

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 am The only realistic option on that list which isn't Cane is Whitelock, and as someone mentioned he was meant to be on sabbatical which is a non starter for a captain

most prefer a captain who is a starter, with whioelock , when available, he will ALWAYS start at 5, with Cane, he is injured half the time or gets injured during the game.. when was the last time Sam got injured?... yeah during the Neanderthal era, back when he was playing with his peeps..

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:27 am

stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 am The only realistic option on that list which isn't Cane is Whitelock, and as someone mentioned he was meant to be on sabbatical which is a non starter for a captain
most prefer a captain who is a starter, with whioelock , when available, he will ALWAYS start at 5, with Cane, he is injured half the time or gets injured during the game.. when was the last time Sam got injured?... yeah during the Neanderthal era, back when he was playing with his peeps..

Right so you want a non established captain to go off on sabbatical, and leave who in charge?

If it hadn't been the sabbatical I think it should be whitelock. Not sure either Cane or Whitelock will be captian come 2023 though

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:29 am

stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:12 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am
stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:08 am Fozzie is off his knockers, lets not deny a better player captaincy cause of Waikato bias, i prefer Whitelock with Ardie and Aaron as VC, why have a captain who can't even play the whole 80mins and is very likely to get injured in the first game.
Sam Cane is Bay Of Plenty - try again
chiefs old fart, chiefs, a player he infact brought to the chiefs back in 2011

Little details are important young fella - they make the difference between wearing a shirt and a shit

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:31 am

Why would you pick a captain whose best years are behind him?

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:43 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:31 am Why would you pick a captain whose best years are behind him?

"Because he is from Canterbury" is the correct answer

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:43 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:31 am Why would you pick a captain whose best years are behind him?
"Because he is from Canterbury" is the correct answer

Wasn’t Gumboot talking about Cane?

To answer the question though, many captains best playing years are behind them when they enter their best captaincy years - it’s something most players mature into.

I will support Cane but hope that having the captaincy doesn’t influence selection. Call me simplistic, but I would like the captain to be chosen from the best 15, not be given a place because they are captain. Maybe Cane is being given time to come back from injury but with plenty of options at 7, that can’t continue forever.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 am

Its a moot point really as it is highly unlikely there will be many tests being played anyway.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:16 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:55 am
Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am Kind of a dumb thread, we already know who it is.
Indeed. The bloke who should be, already is.

yep would kind of think so, I really think your captain should be the person your coach thinks is going to do the job he wants you to do.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:20 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:29 am
stemoc wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:12 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am

Sam Cane is Bay Of Plenty - try again
chiefs old fart, chiefs, a player he infact brought to the chiefs back in 2011
Little details are important young fella - they make the difference between wearing a shirt and a shit

Is that why so many people are smelly in the street NZer? They not taking care of details?

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:21 am

Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:16 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:55 am
Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am Kind of a dumb thread, we already know who it is.
Indeed. The bloke who should be, already is.
yep would kind of think so, I really think your captain should be the person your coach thinks is going to do the job he wants you to do.

Yeah, but

Spoiler

Show

Plus, are we confident that Cane can do the job the coach expects. I hope so but the evidence is leaving a big question mark.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:21 am

ASMO wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 am Its a moot point really as it is highly unlikely there will be many tests being played anyway.

There won't be many tests, but in some way that makes this discussion even more important because Sam Cane will have relatively little time to develop his leadership. We have a great captain in Sam Whitelock, with a proven record of success, who was overlooked. Sam Cane might end up being a brilliant captain, but at this stage there is no doubt that the decision by Foster to appoint him is slightly controversial.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:25 am

Maybe he is looking longer term, Whitelock would be the obvious choice in the short term, but he is what, nearly 32 now? Cane is 4 years younger so getting him in now, and having Whitelock there to mentor him might not be such a bad idea?

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:26 am

Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:16 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:55 am
Dan54 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am Kind of a dumb thread, we already know who it is.
Indeed. The bloke who should be, already is.
yep would kind of think so, I really think your captain should be the person your coach thinks is going to do the job he wants you to do.

Is the coach/captain partnership a thing of the past, though? There are now so many coaches but still only one captain.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:27 am

ASMO wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:25 am Maybe he is looking longer term, Whitelock would be the obvious choice in the short term, but he is what, nearly 32 now? Cane is 4 years younger so getting him in now, and having Whitelock there to mentor him might not be such a bad idea?

Perhaps. I think both players will retire from NZ rugby after the next RWC so they would have been similar options. The bigger issue isnt the relative quality of their leadership, but the fact that Sam Whitelock is a guaranteed selection whilst Sam Cane hasn't been the best openside flanker in NZ for a while.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 am

Guaranteed selection Kieran Read didn't win us the RWC last year.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:37 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 am Guaranteed selection Kieran Read didn't win us the RWC last year.

He didn’t hold his place because he was captain though and keep a better player out. Worst case we could have a situation where the team is weakened because it would be a big call to drop the captain.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:46 am

Read was long past his best in 2019 and Whitelock will be well fucked by 2023.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:48 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 am Guaranteed selection Kieran Read didn't win us the RWC last year.

With respect I'm not sure how relevant that is to this discussion.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:46 am Read was long past his best in 2019 and Whitelock will be well fucked by 2023.

Are you suggesting that Read no longer warranted a starting spot? If not, I don’t follow your point. Richie McCaw was “past his best” in 2015 but was still our best seven and best captain.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:01 am

Jb1981 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:46 am Read was long past his best in 2019 and Whitelock will be well fucked by 2023.
Are you suggesting that Read no longer warranted a starting spot? If not, I don’t follow your point. Richie McCaw was “past his best” in 2015 but was still our best seven and best captain.

McCaw won.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:17 am

Beauden Barrett or Rieko Ioane

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:27 am

Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:01 am
Jb1981 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:46 am Read was long past his best in 2019 and Whitelock will be well fucked by 2023.
Are you suggesting that Read no longer warranted a starting spot? If not, I don’t follow your point. Richie McCaw was “past his best” in 2015 but was still our best seven and best captain.
McCaw won.

Correct - showing that a player “past his best” can lead a side to victory. What’s your point about Whitelock then?

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:38 am

Jb1981 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:27 am
Gumboot wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:01 am
Jb1981 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am

Are you suggesting that Read no longer warranted a starting spot? If not, I don’t follow your point. Richie McCaw was “past his best” in 2015 but was still our best seven and best captain.
McCaw won.
Correct - showing that a player “past his best” can lead a side to victory. What’s your point about Whitelock then?

My point is Whitelock will be past it in 2023.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:24 am

I must say I'm a bit confused by the sheer number of Kiwis who seem to have fallen out of love with Cane.

He would have gone close to being our best forward in Japan. The guy is immense at test level. He buries people.

It's not his fault he didn't make an impact in the first half of the semi against England. He wasn't on the field.

So he had an ordinary Super Rugby campaign. Who cares? Richie McCaw had a few of those too.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:57 am

I love Cane but Gumboot is right Cane and Whitelock will be too old by 2023. Its shaping up as a Tana like selection leaving an underdone captain to fail on the battlefields of France aka McCaw in Cardiff. Read was the worst AB captain since Oliver and even Oliver, Blackadder or Randell didn't lose a test to Ireland let alone twice!

Beaudy for Cap to regain his mana or Rieko to bring back some Mongrel to the team.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:15 pm

Slarty FizzyO wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:57 am I love Cane but Gumboot is right Cane and Whitelock will be too old by 2023. Its shaping up as a Tana like selection leaving an underdone captain to fail on the battlefields of France aka McCaw in Cardiff. Read was the worst AB captain since Oliver and even Oliver, Blackadder or Randell didn't lose a test to Ireland let alone twice!

Beaudy for Cap to regain his mana or Rieko to bring back some Mongrel to the team.

I disagree, particularly in the case of Sam Cane who will be just 31 at RWC 2023. Sam Whitelock will be 35.

Richie McCaw played the 2015 RWC shortly before his 35th birthday.