2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[OomStruisbaai]

The way I see this competition is, it doesn't matter how it works. In the end Leinster win it anyway.

[Tichtheid]

The way I see this competition is, it doesn't matter how it works. In the end Leinster win it anyway.

They are very strong at the moment, but they don’t always win it, once in eleven years as has been said.

I don’t think their side is particularly old so they will remain strong, it’s up to everyone else to topple them.

[Kawazaki]

You can see why the Irish paranoia happens just in this thread. One of the Irish swarm pitches a ridiculous idea. The ridiculous idea gets called out as ridiculous by a non-swarm boardie. Rest of swarm pile in to double/triple/quadruple-down on ridiculous idea. Swarm now believe ridiculous idea to be fact.

[CM11]

You can see why the Irish paranoia happens just in this thread. One of the Irish swarm pitches a ridiculous idea. The ridiculous idea gets called out as ridiculous by a non-swarm boardie. Rest of swarm pile in to double/triple/quadruple-down on ridiculous idea. Swarm now believe ridiculous idea to be fact.

What ridiculous idea?

As usual you make no sense.

And as always the definition of a 'swarm' is at odds with normal usage.

[CM11]

The way I see this competition is, it doesn't matter how it works. In the end Leinster win it anyway.

Yup, it's like that every year.

Oh hang on, no it isn't!

This year we probably would have reached the final regardless of structure but small margins might mean we're not quite so good next year. We haven't won anything yet, btw. So could still end up like last year.

[OomStruisbaai]

The way I see this competition is, it doesn't matter how it works. In the end Leinster win it anyway.

They are very strong at the moment, but they don’t always win it, once in eleven years as has been said.

I don’t think their side is particularly old so they will remain strong, it’s up to everyone else to topple them.

They get NieNaber next season. This will make them stronger.

[JM2K6]

Prefacing this by saying I don't view this as a problem, it's just the nature of the competition and Leinster have gotten a bit lucky this time but also are good enough to have made the luck irrelevant so not sure why anyone would be too bothered, but...

Brian Moore was certainly the catalyst on this occasion. The BT bobble heads have referenced it a few times and Bayfield came out with the URC is shit innit trope - which in fairness hasn't really been brought up too often in more recent times.

As I said in my first post, it's not that there isn't a valid topic of conversation there in terms of tournament structure etc. - I think we can all agree it has many many issues. It's just that this particular issue wasn't a problem when it was to Exeters advantage, it wasn't a problem when it was to Toulouse or La Rochelle's advantage, but now that it is (potentially) to Leinster's advantage, well now its a problem that needs to be addressed.

...

"It's Wrong", when Leinster only play two away games*, but it's not wrong when La Rochelle won the tournament last year having only played once outside of France (they were awarded a draw for a COVID game, ironically enough when in similar circumstances Leinster were handed a 28-0 forfeit - and played Bordauex in the 2 leg last 16). It wasn't wrong when Leinster had to play La Rochelle in a semi final the year before in their actual home ground, but it is unfair that Toulouse has to play in a ground Leinster sometimes move high profile games to - same as Harlequins, Saracens, Stade Francais and Edinburgh do (and the Welsh do with Judgement Day).

Playing "in France" is not the same thing as playing at the ground next door that you're very familiar with. How often have Leinster played at the Aviva? Multiple Irish posters have mentioned La Rochelle last year as if it's equivalent - it's not. They played away at Bordeaux? A team 200km / 2 hours away? Gosh, what an advantage. They played the final in Marseille? At a ground that Toulon use occasionally? Marseille's only 800+km away. The distance is equivalent to that of Exeter to Edinburgh. Pretending that's at all the same thing is just really silly whataboutery.

The direct comparison is Quins & Twickenham. Happily, we're all about the sanctity of the game so we ensure claims of unfairness can never be levelled at us by being too shit to get a "neutral" home knockout game. We wouldn't pretend it wasn't fortunate we could just use the stadium next door that we're very familiar with as our non-home ground and then play there for the final, mind.

[CM11]

So you think Leinster playing in Cork would be a neutral ground that wouldn't give us a significant advantage?

There's a huge advantage to playing in your home country due to a combination of easier travel and more local support.

As I've already mentioned, English sides have yet to lose a final in England. 5 from 5, although one was an all English affair.

[Tichtheid]

The direct comparison is Quins & Twickenham. Happily, we're all about the sanctity of the game so we ensure claims of unfairness can never be levelled at us by being too shit to get a "neutral" home knockout game. We wouldn't pretend it wasn't fortunate we could just use the stadium next door that we're very familiar with as our non-home ground and then play there for the final, mind.

Edinburgh have had a good few home grounds around the city but we've used Murrayfield for long periods - a near 70k capacity stadium with two to three thousand fans in it.

We were so bad that folk on the Glasgow forum were complaining that the 6N teams' players were so used to coming to Murrayfield and winning that it gave them an unfair advantage.


The reverse is true of Leinster at the Aviva, around 75% and upwards of their side are used to winning in front of huge crowds in the 6N and AIs. They beat South Africa, Australia and Fiji this season, as well as the Grand Slam, all off the back of a winning tour to New Zealand.

None of this is unfair or against any rules.

[JM2K6]

So you think Leinster playing in Cork would be a neutral ground that wouldn't give us a significant advantage?

There's a huge advantage to playing in your home country due to a combination of easier travel and more local support.

As I've already mentioned, English sides have yet to lose a final in England. 5 from 5, although one was an all English affair.

I think Leinster in Cork would be a much, much smaller advantage, yeah. I think that's self-evident. It's also about as easy for me to get to Marseille as it is for someone living in La Rochelle. It's quite different to a Dubliner going to the Aviva.

Again, I don't believe any of this is unfair. I'm just amused by how the defence is wildly overreaching and comparing apples to pears.

[CM11]

Again, I think you underestimate the difference between traveling around a country you regularly travel around and going abroad. And when it comes to France, a country with a different language. In a game of small margins all the little things add up.

I'm not saying there isn't an advantage to playing in Dublin over Cork but I think you're exaggerating that advantage.

[PornDog]

Prefacing this by saying I don't view this as a problem, it's just the nature of the competition and Leinster have gotten a bit lucky this time but also are good enough to have made the luck irrelevant so not sure why anyone would be too bothered, but...

There is an interesting conversation to be had - I'm just irked by the tone and the timing of some of those starting that conversation now.

Brian Moore was certainly the catalyst on this occasion. The BT bobble heads have referenced it a few times and Bayfield came out with the URC is shit innit trope - which in fairness hasn't really been brought up too often in more recent times.

As I said in my first post, it's not that there isn't a valid topic of conversation there in terms of tournament structure etc. - I think we can all agree it has many many issues. It's just that this particular issue wasn't a problem when it was to Exeters advantage, it wasn't a problem when it was to Toulouse or La Rochelle's advantage, but now that it is (potentially) to Leinster's advantage, well now its a problem that needs to be addressed.

...

"It's Wrong", when Leinster only play two away games*, but it's not wrong when La Rochelle won the tournament last year having only played once outside of France (they were awarded a draw for a COVID game, ironically enough when in similar circumstances Leinster were handed a 28-0 forfeit - and played Bordauex in the 2 leg last 16). It wasn't wrong when Leinster had to play La Rochelle in a semi final the year before in their actual home ground, but it is unfair that Toulouse has to play in a ground Leinster sometimes move high profile games to - same as Harlequins, Saracens, Stade Francais and Edinburgh do (and the Welsh do with Judgement Day).

Playing "in France" is not the same thing as playing at the ground next door that you're very familiar with. How often have Leinster played at the Aviva? Multiple Irish posters have mentioned La Rochelle last year as if it's equivalent - it's not. They played away at Bordeaux? A team 200km / 2 hours away? Gosh, what an advantage. They played the final in Marseille? At a ground that Toulon use occasionally? Marseille's only 800+km away. The distance is equivalent to that of Exeter to Edinburgh. Pretending that's at all the same thing is just really silly whataboutery.

The direct comparison is Quins & Twickenham. Happily, we're all about the sanctity of the game so we ensure claims of unfairness can never be levelled at us by being too shit to get a "neutral" home knockout game. We wouldn't pretend it wasn't fortunate we could just use the stadium next door that we're very familiar with as our non-home ground and then play there for the final, mind.

There's a few things here. You're right that there is a difference between a stadium down the road vs one further away, but really what is the merit of that difference? I don't believe there is very much, if anything at all, in the unquantifiable 'ground knowledge'. The advantage is in the number of home fans and sleeping in your own bed. A bus ride may be somewhat of an inconvenience, but in reality does it make a large enough difference that we should be changing the rules of the competition? Which is exactly what some people are calling for!!!!!

For what it's worth, Toulouse play their home semi's in Toulouse, Saracens and London Irish have played in London, Leicester have played in Leicester, Cardiff have played in Cardiff and Stade have played in Paris. Ok some of those you have to go back a while for, but we don't exactly have a huge sample size here.

Then there is the practicality of it all. Ireland, Scotland and Wales just don't have the same level of stadia resources that England, France, Italy and South Africa do. This means there is a limited, or indeed no other option for stadia. Even when there is potentially other stadia of sufficient capacity, you need to go and organise it with those stadium's owners, which will always be of another sport and comes with potential scheduling conflicts, or also potential political ones as well in terms of GAA stadia. It's not a quick and easy thing to arrange at relatively short notice. In France and England you have a plethora of options - other host countries are not so fortunate. Plus we'd be seeking for ways to reduce rugby income - sending rugby income to other organisations rather than keeping it 'in house', and putting obstacles in the way of fans attending. Seems very self destructive and again without having any real tangible reason for doing so.

Of course Leinster's home run is fortunate, but it's been earned according to the competition rules. It's really no more (or only negligibly more so) than the afore mentioned La Rochelle, or Saracens runs. And Leinster have been 'unfortunate' in previous years, playing bucket loads of semi's away from home. This will also be the first time the've played a final on home soil. There's hardly a precedence of an unfair advantage.

Lastly then there's the fact that Leinster do play more games in Lansdowne than other teams do in their corresponding 'upgraded' stadia. Well this year is a bit of an anomaly with Springsteen blocking the use of the RDS making it unavailable, and Leinster/RDS deserve all the criticism coming their way for fucking that up, but really Leinster are just a victim of their own success here. They've been so successful that they have the option to earn more money by playing games in a bigger stadium. Should we really be looking to hinder teams from being too successful?
Unfortunately plans to upgrade the RDS have been stalled on the drawing board for years now and doesn't seem to be making any progress. It's unfortunate, but it's just part of the practical reality.

Now the real question is, if we are to change the competition rules to address this 'problem', then what is the rule we are going to bring in? Are we going to say put a limit to the number of 'other' games that can be played in an upgraded stadium in order to invalidate it's use as a semi venue (or final venue according to Mr. Moore)? Is that limit zero, one, two? Or is it a geographic limit, and stadia within a certain distance cannot be used?
It all seems so clumsy and convoluted to put in place, not to mention potentially revenue harming! If Cardiff or Edinburgh get to host a home semi, are we really going to go out of our way to hamper the potential income and number of fans that can attend? And all for what? 99% of the benefit in 'home' advantage is the crowd and not having to stay in a hotel - none of which does this 'problem' address.


Edit: Both Pairc Ui Chaoimh in Cork and Croke Park were in use by the GAA last weekend, as were all other GAA stadia. So literally the only only other options would have been Thomond or Ravenhill as venues. You'd be looking at probably less than 20% of the income that Lansdowne earned for the EPCR.

[Kawazaki]

After doubling-down, tripling-down and quadrupling-down what are the next 5 or 6, possibly 10 levels called?

[CM11]

Tbf, I don't think JMK is arguing against Leinster using Lansdowne. The disagreement is over just how much of an advantage it is.

[inactionman]

After doubling-down, tripling-down and quadrupling-down what are the next 5 or 6, possibly 10 levels called?

Mulleting

[Uncle fester]

Poor La Rochelle. Lambs to slaughter in Leinster's home venue.

[Tichtheid]

Poor La Rochelle. Lambs to slaughter in Leinster's home venue.

Any fitness news yet?

Leinster will be missing Sexton, but otherwise it's largely a team that would start a World Cup final, they have to start favourites

[Jim Lahey]

Poor La Rochelle. Lambs to slaughter in Leinster's home venue.

Any fitness news yet?

Leinster will be missing Sexton, but otherwise it's largely a team that would start a World Cup Quarter final, they have to start favourites

Fixed.

[Tichtheid]

Poor La Rochelle. Lambs to slaughter in Leinster's home venue.

Any fitness news yet?

Leinster will be missing Sexton, but otherwise it's largely a team that would start a World Cup Quarter final, they have to start favourites

Fixed.

What's the difference?

I meant Ireland's first team

[OomStruisbaai]

Can a team choke two weekends in a row?

Don't think do. Leinster to take this one with plenty.

[Jim Lahey]

Can a team choke two weekends in a row?

Don't think do. Leinster to take this one with plenty.

+1.
Expect them to be angry and focused after last weekend. I'd go Leinster by 10.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Can a team choke two weekends in a row?

Don't think do. Leinster to take this one with plenty.

+1.
Expect them to be angry and focused after last weekend. I'd go Leinster by 10.

Can't see them losing this one either, LaR will need to be at their absolute best to have a chance.

[Tichtheid]

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

La Rochelle's pack are the punch in the mouth and it's what makes this an intriguing match, against most other sides I'd back Leinster heavily, but I think the French side won't roll over.

At least I hope not, I don't want to see a one-sided mismatch, a full on heavy weight contest worthy of the European final will do nicely.

edit, I see that Danty was back last week, played 70 minutes, not counting ten sitting out a yellow card.

[Jim Lahey]

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

La Rochelle's pack are the punch in the mouth and it's what makes this an intriguing match, against most other sides I'd back Leinster heavily, but I think the French side won't roll over.

At least I hope not, I don't want to see a one-sided mismatch, a full on heavy weight contest worthy of the European final will do nicely.

edit, I see that Danty was back last week, played 70 minutes, not counting ten sitting out a yellow card.

Leinster have always struggled with packs containing Will Skelton. Is he fit this weekend?

[SaintK]

Leinster have always struggled with packs containing Will Skelton. Is he fit this weekend?

Skelton, or no Skelton I really can't see Leinster losing this one.

[PornDog]

Jesus - feeling nowhere near as confident as obviously a lot of you are!

[SaintK]

Jesus - feeling nowhere near as confident as obviously a lot of you are!

Playing in Dublin, atonement for last year, Lancaster's last match!!
Leinster +11

[PornDog]

Jesus - feeling nowhere near as confident as obviously a lot of you are!

Playing in Dublin, atonement for last year, Lancaster's last match!!
Leinster +11

LaR are really fucking good, have some really big carriers of the variety Leinster have traditionally struggled to cope with and are also exceptional at the breakdown, which is really Leinster's biggest weak point - disrupt that successfully and that's Leinster's entire gameplan on the back foot.

[Ludeen]

Nervous about this one, really hope leinster win , world cup on the horizon.

[Jim Lahey]

Nervous about this one, really hope leinster win , world cup on the horizon.

They SHOULD win, but certainly not out of the realms of LaR putting in a big shift up front and snatching a win.

PP going for Leinster by 8.

If they do lose then you'd be concerned that a complex might seep into the Leinster side. Duffing teams for fun 20-odd games a year but losing the two games at the business end of the season that actually matter.

I think they'll put last year to bed with a good win tomorrow.

[Uncle fester]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

I know which team's I'll be supporting, go Warriors!

[OomStruisbaai]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

The Saffers joining this competition received a lot a critics but fuck me Cape Town lay down a marker on this with next weeks final.

[Uncle fester]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

The Saffers joining this competition received a lot a critics but fuck me Cape Town lay down a marker on this with next weeks final.

Wrong competition.

[Biffer]

Any fitness news yet?

Leinster will be missing Sexton, but otherwise it's largely a team that would start a World Cup Quarter final, they have to start favourites

Fixed.

What's the difference?

I meant Ireland's first team

Ireland have never got past the quarter final (or won any knockout game), so we don't know what their team looks like in a final or semi.

[Margin__Walker]

This tweet tickled me as inane social media content goes.

BOTH SIDES GO FULL STRENGTH sillystareyesemoji

Were they thinking the two teams were looking to rest a few for the game?

[Yr Alban]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

Read a thing on the BBC this morning saying that 35k tickets have been sold. Only 1800 Glasgow fans expected, but with Leinster in the CC final tomorrow and there being a Katie Taylor fight, there are no hotel rooms available in Dublin unless you’re prepared to spend silly money.

[CM11]

35k isn't too bad. Last time it was held in Dublin it was in the RDS.

[Uncle fester]

Thoughts on Glasgow v Toulon?
Hope it's a decent turnout at least.

Read a thing on the BBC this morning saying that 35k tickets have been sold. Only 1800 Glasgow fans expected, but with Leinster in the CC final tomorrow and there being a Katie Taylor fight, there are no hotel rooms available in Dublin unless you’re prepared to spend silly money.

Lots of the tickets were probably a double deal with the match tomorrow. I'm sitting in same seat for both matches for example.

I'd say a fair few people with those might not turn up tonight.

[Dogbert]

Don't worry - us warriors who have made the journey will make enough noise tonight

C'mom Glasgow