The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Slick]

Trying to give the benefit of the doubt as it was the first game and effectively pre season but felt Price was poor when considering he needed a big game to put pressure on White.

It's between Price and Dobie for me for the final spot.

Reckon so. I’m a big fan of Dobie but Price probably nicks it on experience

Anyway, not a lot to read into that. Darcy was good and actually looked quicker in a straight line than before. 10 was good, some lovely kicking. Harris was good and bad, Smith was OK.

Back rows were fairly even I’d say. Not a lot else to say, pretty much what I was expecting

[Tichtheid]

I'll give Sutherland another go because he was up against a quality operator, but despite what I said earlier about Walker (and I still foresee a big future for him), Sebastian was a big step up*.

Healy kicked well, but I'm not energised by any of the performances from those who were looking to put their hand up for selection, the weather was the same for both sides and Italy made a tiny fraction of the number of errors we did.


*Good news for Edinburgh for the next five years or so

[KingBlairhorn]

The impression I got was they ran a lot of good moves. It their handling was shite.

The stadium was very flat, the only bit that got everyone up was the seagull. Otherwise there was a constant murmur of chit chat. It must be hard to get yourself fired up for a meaningless game where there is an injury risk right before a WC when the fans aren’t even into it.

[Tichtheid]

The impression I got was they ran a lot of good moves. It their handling was shite.

The stadium was very flat, the only bit that got everyone up was the seagull. Otherwise there was a constant murmur of chit chat. It must be hard to get yourself fired up for a meaningless game where there is an injury risk right before a WC when the fans aren’t even into it.

I agree with the first sentence, but if they can't get themselves up for what is effectively a trial for the World Cup squad then they shouldn't be there - I don't think motivation was a factor, pre-season rust maybe, but then again they have been training like fuck for seven weeks

[Wylie Coyote]

The impression I got was they ran a lot of good moves. It their handling was shite.

The stadium was very flat, the only bit that got everyone up was the seagull. Otherwise there was a constant murmur of chit chat. It must be hard to get yourself fired up for a meaningless game where there is an injury risk right before a WC when the fans aren’t even into it.

I agree with the first sentence, but if they can't get themselves up for what is effectively a trial for the World Cup squad then they shouldn't be there - I don't think motivation was a factor, pre-season rust maybe, but then again they have been training like fuck for seven weeks

One detail i noticed was the drop off in crisp-ness in the running lines and passing skills in the midfield. McDowall & Harris are too similar with no real distributor there. Ollie Smith did not have his best game either. When Redpath came on it was mostly defence but when the ball was in hand it was noticeably better. I see the midfield options being Huwipolotu & Redpath with the others being a significant step down.

[Slick]

The impression I got was they ran a lot of good moves. It their handling was shite.

The stadium was very flat, the only bit that got everyone up was the seagull. Otherwise there was a constant murmur of chit chat. It must be hard to get yourself fired up for a meaningless game where there is an injury risk right before a WC when the fans aren’t even into it.

I agree with the first sentence, but if they can't get themselves up for what is effectively a trial for the World Cup squad then they shouldn't be there - I don't think motivation was a factor, pre-season rust maybe, but then again they have been training like fuck for seven weeks

One detail i noticed was the drop off in crisp-ness in the running lines and passing skills in the midfield. McDowall & Harris are too similar with no real distributor there. Ollie Smith did not have his best game either. When Redpath came on it was mostly defence but when the ball was in hand it was noticeably better. I see the midfield options being Huwipolotu & Redpath with the others being a significant step down.

100% agree with all of that

[Jock42]

The impression I got was they ran a lot of good moves. It their handling was shite.

The stadium was very flat, the only bit that got everyone up was the seagull. Otherwise there was a constant murmur of chit chat. It must be hard to get yourself fired up for a meaningless game where there is an injury risk right before a WC when the fans aren’t even into it.

I thought they kept running/nearly running or tripping over each other which made a lot of the plays stutter.

[westport]

Great win, 83-10. by the U20's today against Samoa to finish 3rd in the Trophy, still there is always next year for most of them.

[Tichtheid]

Great win, 83-10. by the U20's today against Samoa to finish 3rd in the Trophy, still there is always next year for most of them.

Spain beat Uruguay to gain promotion to the top tournament next year.

Today's performance, along with the fact we beat Spain 43 - 20 last month in Spain, makes the defeat to Uruguay all the more frustrating.

[Yr Alban]

Also this shit, from the BBC article, annoys the hell out of me:

"Debutants McDowall and Henderson, who was born in Hong Kong but qualifies to play for Scotland through his Scottish dad, both previously featured for national age-grade teams."

Henderson is Scottish. His dad is Scottish, he lived in Scotland from age 12 I think and he was schooled at Strathallan. It's completely deliberate to make it look like another poach when it clearly is nothing of the sort. The BBC do this in almost every article.

You always get this when it’s our players. They are desperate to paint us as a team full of poaches. This is really stretching it - are they making out that he is ethnically Chinese?

Parental nationality has always been the overriding factor in determining nationality. I was born in Ceylon to Scottish parents and my birth was registered at the UK embassy, it would be a joke to suggest I was anything other than Scottish.

Indeed. What’s unusual here is that when someone is born in a country they clearly don’t come from ethnically, nobody tends to question their nationality as much. My uncle was born in Quetta in what’s now Pakistan, but nobody would seriously argue that this makes him Pakistani. But if you were born a couple of hundred miles away in England, for exactly the same reason (that’s where your parents’ careers took them) then you’ll have people telling you that you’re English your whole life. No matter where your parents came from or what you identify as.

[clydecloggie]

Great win, 83-10. by the U20's today against Samoa to finish 3rd in the Trophy, still there is always next year for most of them.

Spain beat Uruguay to gain promotion to the top tournament next year.

Today's performance, along with the fact we beat Spain 43 - 20 last month in Spain, makes the defeat to Uruguay all the more frustrating.

Both Georgia and Spain, from Rugby Europe, will play the U20 Championship next year while Scotland needs a pathway to qualify for the U20 Trophy. In any normally governed sport, it'd mean Georgia playing U20 6N in 2024 and Scotland joining Spain in the Rugby Europe Championship. Won't happen of course, because rugby is not a normally governed sport.

Most likely the best team after Georgia and Spain from Europe gets a play-off against Scotland. Last year, that was the Netherlands so for a Dutch-Scot like me there's the tantalizing prospect of a meaningful rugby match between my two home countries. Romania are poor at U20 level, facing much the same issue of a sub-par age-grade setup that Scotland does (they even relegated out of the Rugby Europe U18 championship this year after defeat to the Czechs), so most likely it's Portugal or the aforementioned Dutch that will be Scotland's main rivals for a place in the 2024 U20 Trophy.

[KingBlairhorn]

When did the BBC Scotland Sport become such a tabloid rag? Their next rugby article, after the last inaccurate one highlighted is:

Headline: Scotland will 'get hot ' & escape tough pool - Russel
Leader: Fly-half Finn Russell believes Scotland can "get hot for a couple of games" to escape the Rugby World Cup's most difficult pool and become the tournament's surprise package.

What Russel actually said: "You catch someone cold or someone gets an early yellow card, you never know what will happen," "It is a really tough group for us - and no-one's talking about Tonga either with the players they've got. But if you get good for a few games in a World Cup, that's all it can take. "So we've got three or four really tough games, but it's a challenge I'm looking forward to."

What he said and their headline and leader bear no resemblance to each other. Why are journalists so universally shit right now? Just report the news guys, we don't need your shitty hot take on it, nobody cares. These same journalists then complain that sports clubs are internalising all their media and they cannot seem to grasp the relationship between the two actions.

[Biffer]

In non-rugby in Scotland - World Championship Cycling on in Glasgow. Men's elite Road race Sunday 6th starting in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh, out across the Queensferry Crossing, Fife, Kincardine Bridge, Flakirk, down into Glasgow from the North, then a dozen or so loops of a route around the city centre and West End.

[inactionman]

Apols if I missed this in the thread, but some suggestions on the bath board that McConnochie has injured his achilles on Scotland duty - any news on this?

[Big D]

Apols if I missed this in the thread, but some suggestions on the bath board that McConnochie has injured his achilles on Scotland duty - any news on this?

Not heard but that would explain why Rowe was called up.

[Tichtheid]

In non-rugby in Scotland - World Championship Cycling on in Glasgow. Men's elite Road race Sunday 6th starting in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh, out across the Queensferry Crossing, Fife, Kincardine Bridge, Flakirk, down into Glasgow from the North, then a dozen or so loops of a route around the city centre and West End.

I don't blame them the bypass can be a nightmare at Baberton

[clydecloggie]

In non-rugby in Scotland - World Championship Cycling on in Glasgow. Men's elite Road race Sunday 6th starting in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh, out across the Queensferry Crossing, Fife, Kincardine Bridge, Flakirk, down into Glasgow from the North, then a dozen or so loops of a route around the city centre and West End.

Yup. Great weekend of sport. I've got my ticket for Scotland-France on Saturday and will be at the Cote de Montrose Street on Sunday! I still remember the Commonwealth Games road race where Geraint Thomas was in winning position, punctured on the last lap and then finally arrived at Montrose for the last time - the shouts from the crowd rivalled a happy Murrayfield. I noticed the lap is a bit different this time, looks like they're finishing on George Square rather than Glasgow Green.

[Jock42]

Apols if I missed this in the thread, but some suggestions on the bath board that McConnochie has injured his achilles on Scotland duty - any news on this?

Yeah returned to Bath during the week.

[Biffer]

In non-rugby in Scotland - World Championship Cycling on in Glasgow. Men's elite Road race Sunday 6th starting in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh, out across the Queensferry Crossing, Fife, Kincardine Bridge, Flakirk, down into Glasgow from the North, then a dozen or so loops of a route around the city centre and West End.

Yup. Great weekend of sport. I've got my ticket for Scotland-France on Saturday and will be at the Cote de Montrose Street on Sunday! I still remember the Commonwealth Games road race where Geraint Thomas was in winning position, punctured on the last lap and then finally arrived at Montrose for the last time - the shouts from the crowd rivalled a happy Murrayfield. I noticed the lap is a bit different this time, looks like they're finishing on George Square rather than Glasgow Green.

I'm missing the France game to go to the track cycling on the Saturday afternoon / evening. Men's and Women's team pursuit finals included in the session.

[KingBlairhorn]

In non-rugby in Scotland - World Championship Cycling on in Glasgow. Men's elite Road race Sunday 6th starting in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh, out across the Queensferry Crossing, Fife, Kincardine Bridge, Flakirk, down into Glasgow from the North, then a dozen or so loops of a route around the city centre and West End.

Yup. Great weekend of sport. I've got my ticket for Scotland-France on Saturday and will be at the Cote de Montrose Street on Sunday! I still remember the Commonwealth Games road race where Geraint Thomas was in winning position, punctured on the last lap and then finally arrived at Montrose for the last time - the shouts from the crowd rivalled a happy Murrayfield. I noticed the lap is a bit different this time, looks like they're finishing on George Square rather than Glasgow Green.

I'm missing the France game to go to the track cycling on the Saturday afternoon / evening. Men's and Women's team pursuit finals included in the session.

Frankly, I have a bad feeling that will turn out to be a good decision come the end of Saturday. I really don't fancy our chances.

[Wylie Coyote]

Interesting interview with Hogg about his retirement:

[clydecloggie]

Yup. Great weekend of sport. I've got my ticket for Scotland-France on Saturday and will be at the Cote de Montrose Street on Sunday! I still remember the Commonwealth Games road race where Geraint Thomas was in winning position, punctured on the last lap and then finally arrived at Montrose for the last time - the shouts from the crowd rivalled a happy Murrayfield. I noticed the lap is a bit different this time, looks like they're finishing on George Square rather than Glasgow Green.

I'm missing the France game to go to the track cycling on the Saturday afternoon / evening. Men's and Women's team pursuit finals included in the session.

Frankly, I have a bad feeling that will turn out to be a good decision come the end of Saturday. I really don't fancy our chances.

First game for France so likely to be a 'B+' team against the Scotland first XV at Murrayfield. We'll pump 'em.

[Slick]

When did the BBC Scotland Sport become such a tabloid rag? Their next rugby article, after the last inaccurate one highlighted is:

Headline: Scotland will 'get hot ' & escape tough pool - Russel
Leader: Fly-half Finn Russell believes Scotland can "get hot for a couple of games" to escape the Rugby World Cup's most difficult pool and become the tournament's surprise package.

What Russel actually said: "You catch someone cold or someone gets an early yellow card, you never know what will happen," "It is a really tough group for us - and no-one's talking about Tonga either with the players they've got. But if you get good for a few games in a World Cup, that's all it can take. "So we've got three or four really tough games, but it's a challenge I'm looking forward to."

What he said and their headline and leader bear no resemblance to each other. Why are journalists so universally shit right now? Just report the news guys, we don't need your shitty hot take on it, nobody cares. These same journalists then complain that sports clubs are internalising all their media and they cannot seem to grasp the relationship between the two actions.

In another interview from Finn, looks like BK is in the hot seat for 15

What Hoggy brought was just so much experience at the top level, so I was able to bounce questions off him and we got on really well. It’s obviously different having Blair or Ollie Smith playing there for us — but the way Blair has been training at full-back has been really good,” he explains.

“When it’s been me and Blair in the same team at training, we know he can step in and play 10 really well. So, we’ve interacted really easily and chopped and changed who’s at 10 all the time. Sometimes if he’s in the wide ruck, he might jump in at 10 in the next phase, which allows me to be a bit wider.

“So, there’s a bit more change there, and it’s been great to see because it’s quite a new relationship between us as a 10 and 15. He’s a big guy, really quick, and he’s got a lot of different attributes to Hoggy.

[Slick]

Also enjoyed this report I saw earlier:

UK ministers were warned that any clashes between Scottish football supporters and drunken British sailors in Iceland could cause a diplomatic incident, according to newly released files.

Jock Stein’s Scotland team were due to play a World Cup qualifying match in Reykjavik, the capital, in May 1985 at the same time as hundreds of Royal Navy crewmen were on shore leave.

Government files show that British officials feared that any hooliganism could affect trade between the countries.

However, their concern was not borne out as the visitors partied peacefully in a nightclub with Rod Stewart, his model girlfriend, the world’s strongest man and the contestants from the Miss Iceland beauty competition.

Michael Lonsdale, a British diplomat in Iceland, wrote to the Foreign Office in April 1985 alerting it to the potential for violence.

“Some 1,000 fans are expected from Glasgow and London for three matches (under-18, under-21 and a full international) against Iceland on May 27 and 28,” he said. “With a naval visit from HMS Cleopatra and over 200 sailors on shore leave we are viewing the Whit holiday with some trepidation!”

He added: “Iceland has a small, tightly-knit community where unruly behaviour is rare. Local people would not take kindly to hooliganism or violence.

“Any such disturbances would have repercussions not only in terms of future sporting events but also in the context of trade. There is a Scottish trade mission due from September 17-21 and a British week planned from September 25-October 6.”

The warning came at the time when football hooliganism was a serious problem and supporters of the England team were notorious for causing violent disorder. Lonsdale asked for extra staff to deal with possible fallout from the sporting fixtures.


The Foreign Office sought to allay his fears, responding: “Scottish supporters do not have a bad reputation as was illustrated when an estimated 4,000 of them travelled to Seville for the Spain v Scotland World Cup qualifying match on February 27 .”

After the game Lonsdale sent a report to London in which he expressed surprise and relief over the conduct of the travelling fans. “Scottish fans displayed a good deal of exuberance before, during and after the match on the streets and in hotels and restaurants,” he wrote, in correspondence which has now been opened and placed in the National Archives in Kew.

“The success of their team in winning 1-0 and the credible performance of the Iceland side seemed to satisfy honour all round resulting in a cheerful and sporting atmosphere.

“Rod Stewart, the Scottish pop star, came over with his girlfriend (American model Kelly Emberg) specially to attend the match. His appearance at Iceland’s biggest restaurant/disco where the Miss Iceland contest was being held provided a superstar thrill for the fans and Icelanders alike”

[Jock42]

Is Hastings fit? As much as you want the first 15 to have minutes under their belt, it's between him and Healy for the 2nd FH spot. Be a shame if he doesn't get a proper chance to stake a claim.

[Biffer]

Personally, I enjoyed the bit where Russell said he reckons he's got another two World Cups in him.

[Slick]

Is Hastings fit? As much as you want the first 15 to have minutes under their belt, it's between him and Healy for the 2nd FH spot. Be a shame if he doesn't get a proper chance to stake a claim.

I think he is training as normal, definitely needs a shot. As much as Healy played well on Saturday I'd still be happier with a fit Hastings at the moment. I think...

[clydecloggie]

Is Hastings fit? As much as you want the first 15 to have minutes under their belt, it's between him and Healy for the 2nd FH spot. Be a shame if he doesn't get a proper chance to stake a claim.

I think he is training as normal, definitely needs a shot. As much as Healy played well on Saturday I'd still be happier with a fit Hastings at the moment. I think...

Healy's kicking game seems Test-ready, although I'd need to see it against a better team with better positioning and a better kicking game of their own. I'm not convinced his passing and running game are of the same level, and that variety of having all three makes Hastings a great second to Finn Russell, even if Hastings' kicking game is probably inferior to Healy's.

[Jock42]

Is Hastings fit? As much as you want the first 15 to have minutes under their belt, it's between him and Healy for the 2nd FH spot. Be a shame if he doesn't get a proper chance to stake a claim.

I think he is training as normal, definitely needs a shot. As much as Healy played well on Saturday I'd still be happier with a fit Hastings at the moment. I think...

I'm not so sure. Russell, Hastings and Kinghorn are similar players to different extents. Healy, from the little I've seen, offers something a bit different.

[Slick]

Is Hastings fit? As much as you want the first 15 to have minutes under their belt, it's between him and Healy for the 2nd FH spot. Be a shame if he doesn't get a proper chance to stake a claim.

I think he is training as normal, definitely needs a shot. As much as Healy played well on Saturday I'd still be happier with a fit Hastings at the moment. I think...

I'm not so sure. Russell, Hastings and Kinghorn are similar players to different extents. Healy, from the little I've seen, offers something a bit different.

That's a very fair point

[dpedin]

I think he is training as normal, definitely needs a shot. As much as Healy played well on Saturday I'd still be happier with a fit Hastings at the moment. I think...

I'm not so sure. Russell, Hastings and Kinghorn are similar players to different extents. Healy, from the little I've seen, offers something a bit different.

That's a very fair point

I agree - Healy's kicking from hand was just superb against Italy and he put us into some great filed positions which we inevitably squandered. I wouldn't underestimate the value of having him on the bench or in the team if we need to play a tight kicking game or need to see out a game by playing in the opposition 22. If we are playing Russell at 10 then he is a defo bench option for me with Kinghorn either starting at 15 or also on bench to cover back 3 positions and 3rd choice 10.

[Jock42]

Seeing photos of Russell and Healy today, looks like Hastings could miss out. Unless the SRU are bluffing me.

[KingBlairhorn]

I think all three of Russell, Healy and Hastings travel as 10s with Kinghorn as a 15. I think the versatility of Kinghorn is hugely in his favour and if someone is going to miss out it is more likely Ollie Smith.

[Dogbert]

I think all three of Russell, Healy and Hastings travel as 10s with Kinghorn as a 15. I think the versatility of Kinghorn is hugely in his favour and if someone is going to miss out it is more likely Ollie Smith.

If Ollie Smith doesn't travel , who is your back up 15 ? , assuming Kinghorn starts- not travelling without a dedicated 15 , would be 'Brave'

I see Russell , Healy travel as 10's ,Hastings missing out , Smith at 15 , and Kinghorn on the bench , as he covers 10. Wing and full back.

Same with Fagerson jnr benching as he is really the only back row who has the versatility to cover pretty much the whole 3 positions

[Slick]

I think all three of Russell, Healy and Hastings travel as 10s with Kinghorn as a 15. I think the versatility of Kinghorn is hugely in his favour and if someone is going to miss out it is more likely Ollie Smith.

If Ollie Smith doesn't travel , who is your back up 15 ? , assuming Kinghorn starts- not travelling without a dedicated 15 , would be 'Brave'

I see Russell , Healy travel as 10's ,Hastings missing out , Smith at 15 , and Kinghorn on the bench , as he covers 10. Wing and full back.

Same with Fagerson jnr benching as he is really the only back row who has the versatility to cover pretty much the whole 3 positions

Looks very much like BK is the starting 15 - he can still cover all those positions when starting. I was kind of hoping Smith would have kicked on a bit more but plenty of time. I don’t have huge amounts of faith in BK but his cameos in the 6N means he deserves first dibs I think

[Jock42]

I think all three of Russell, Healy and Hastings travel as 10s with Kinghorn as a 15. I think the versatility of Kinghorn is hugely in his favour and if someone is going to miss out it is more likely Ollie Smith.

If Ollie Smith doesn't travel , who is your back up 15 ? , assuming Kinghorn starts- not travelling without a dedicated 15 , would be 'Brave'

I see Russell , Healy travel as 10's ,Hastings missing out , Smith at 15 , and Kinghorn on the bench , as he covers 10. Wing and full back.

Same with Fagerson jnr benching as he is really the only back row who has the versatility to cover pretty much the whole 3 positions

I agree with that although see BK starting and covering from there.

[KingBlairhorn]

I think all three of Russell, Healy and Hastings travel as 10s with Kinghorn as a 15. I think the versatility of Kinghorn is hugely in his favour and if someone is going to miss out it is more likely Ollie Smith.

If Ollie Smith doesn't travel , who is your back up 15 ? , assuming Kinghorn starts- not travelling without a dedicated 15 , would be 'Brave'

I see Russell , Healy travel as 10's ,Hastings missing out , Smith at 15 , and Kinghorn on the bench , as he covers 10. Wing and full back.

Same with Fagerson jnr benching as he is really the only back row who has the versatility to cover pretty much the whole 3 positions

In this scenario (which is what I think Toonie thinks, not what I think) Kinghorn is starting 15 and Hastings, Graham and Jones deputise. If Kinghorn has a significant injury then Smith is called up as his replacement. If Healy hadn't come into the squad and Hogg hadn't retired I expect we would be going to the WC with Hogg the only 15 and Kinghorn there as a 10 only, I don't see why that set-up changes now tbh?

[Tichtheid]

I'm not sure how fit Adam Hastings is, I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks.

I see Kinghorn as the starter at 15 with Smith as back up, I think both will go to France.

I don't think Toonie was too impressed with Hastings' defence, that may count against him in the shoot out with Healy, I think there will only be one of them travelling to the RWC

Healy is still very much an unknown quantity, he kicked very well against Italy but for general fly half play Hastings has a lot to offer - that is probably the closest call for me at the moment.

The other close one is between two players who will definitely go, Watson & Darge, it should be a straight shoot out and the one playing better gets the nod, if Darge loses out this time for the starting jersey in the games against SA and Ire, he will start against Tonga and Romania

[KingBlairhorn]

Toonie only took 1 fullback to both the 2015 and 2019 WCs. Kinghorn travelled in 2019 but very much as a winger (that's my recollection mind which is generally terrible!).

Looking back at the squads though, he has only ever taken two fly-halfs, I had misremembered he took three.

His typical squad is 2 fly-halfs, 4 centres, 4 wings and 1 fullback. Obviously he likes a lot of flexibility in that and many of the players will play multiple positions. There was one additional squad place for backs in 2019 and he used that for a fourth scrum-half.

[Tichtheid]

Toonie only took 1 fullback to both the 2015 and 2019 WCs. Kinghorn travelled in 2019 but very much as a winger (that's my recollection mind which is generally terrible!).

Looking back at the squads though, he has only ever taken two fly-halfs, I had misremembered he took three.

His typical squad is 2 fly-halfs, 4 centres, 4 wings and 1 fullback. Obviously he likes a lot of flexibility in that and many of the players will play multiple positions. There was one additional squad place for backs in 2019 and he used that for a fourth scrum-half.

The squads have increased from 31 to 33 players this year, so that allows for six props and an extra back