Law question- Farrell tackle

[Grandpa]

England seem to totally ignore how Saracens attack (an attack built around him), for whom he tore apart most of the Premiership. It's radically different to what we're expecting him to do in an England shirt.

Whilst I have some sympathy with that viewpoint, the standard of rugby in the Prem doesn't equate to intl level.

This is fine and I have some sympathy for this also. However England players essentially have to play in the Prem so not sure what else we're comparing it to which is useful, and we hear an awful lot about how one of his main competitors for the jersey tears apart Prem teams from sixth in the table, so there is as there often is with Faz a 'heads I win, tails you lose' aspect to the point. Maybe the Sarries system won't adapt to the international game but it seems odd to pick someone and ask him to do something so radically different to what works so well for him week in week out, particularly as a lot of the same guys are in the England set up (there is also an element of this being true for Smith as well, of course).

There's plenty to like about Farrell just as it's possible to utterly despair at his failure to clean up his tackle technique. That a rugby player acts like a dick on the pitch really isn't unique to him in any manner, the extent people go to to pretend he is is pretty amusing.

Is anyone claiming he's unique? Repeat offenders for all kinds of stuff are disliked by people, it's not like it means they can't dislike other players at the same time for similar or even entirely different reasons.

Yeah I think Grandpa fairly clearly is

It would help if I rated him as a player. Like Sexton can be an arsehole obviously, but it's balanced by his brilliance on the field. Carlos Spencer is the most arrogant prick I ever met... but again, loved watching him play... I don't like Bundee Aki... journeyman thug with bad technique issues... so similar feelings towards him as towards Owen...

So it's a collective thing for me. Farrell needs more redeeming features...

[ScarfaceClaw]

When is the collective outrage for “it’s too long a ban” or “that’s a joke to get him in the World Cup” bat signal being sent up?

[Paddington Bear]

That's a good infographic. I'd argue the "need for deterrent" box now should be ticked - he's been given opportunity to fix it and failed to do so. I'd like to see 6-2+2 on principle but suspect we'll get 6-2+1, especially with the special mitigating circumstances of "RWC approaching".

While there are many, many things we can criticise the RFU for, they actually do a really good job of making disciplinary outcomes available even for incidents at the amateur and semi-pro level.

https://www.englandrugby.com/governance ... /2022-2023

Click on the hyperlinks for any given case and you can read the full judgement, any offences from the Championship and up get an infographic too. Given how clear and easily accessible these are, the level of discussion around high profile incidents in the rugby media is lamentable.



If I was on the panel I'd be saying at least one of the other two Aggravation boxes ought to be ticked because he's not just a recidivist, but a serial one. Thus, max ban for his offence (6) + an extra week or two would seem apt. However, as suggested, a supposedly key England player with a looming World Cup is probably not going to be on the receiving end of that.

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

[Ymx]

When is the collective outrage for “it’s too long a ban” or “that’s a joke to get him in the World Cup” bat signal being sent up?

I think markers have been set. All things are looking well prepared for a good meltdown on one if not both sides.

[Simian]

Yes and no. Certainly Ford has shunted Farrell to 12 a few times over the years, but Farrell's failings at ten can be viewed over time on their own. It's remarkable how much a player who clearly has a very high ceiling in that position for his club and who has had over forty starts at ten for England has produced sub par personal performances. His decision making and execution are both frequently flawed, far beyond what you'd expect from a storied international, let alone with with his legend and status.

Yeah, that’s totally fair.

Tbh, I rushed to make the post you replied to because I think Ford is a super classy player.

Yup, he's the best ten option for England right now. Smith can do things he can't but Ford is an all round player with a world class kicking game who can flick the switch to spark a team at international level. He's exactly what this England team is going to need right now.

I hope he doesn't play a minute of the next warm-up.

I genuinely believe that, if the cards had fallen differently, ford would be held in carter-like regard. Imo, he’s legit a (genrerartionaL) world class ten.
,

[Sandstorm]

Simian on the glue again.

[Niegs]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Jesus Christos, that coach is a friggin' twat! It's also disconcerting that people seemed to defend him / selectively ignore aggressive behaviour.

I keep teetering over whether or not I want to get involved with governance/development, and it's attitudes like this (not to mention the "game's gone soft" brigade constantly downplaying and even, imo, influencing decision makers away from making the game safer) which both cause me to hesitate... but also want to get in head-first to make sure these pricks get bounced out / the good people have support to usurp them. (It seems a lot of egoist, 'playstation coaches' get the gig because no one else wants it or feels confident too, and I hope to find/support good people to step up or even the bad eggs to change their ways.)

[Biffer]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Jesus Christos, that coach is a friggin' twat! It's also disconcerting that people seemed to defend him / selectively ignore aggressive behaviour.

I keep teetering over whether or not I want to get involved with governance/development, and it's attitudes like this (not to mention the "game's gone soft" brigade constantly downplaying and even, imo, influencing decision makers away from making the game safer) which both cause me to hesitate... but also want to get in head-first to make sure these pricks get bounced out / the good people have support to usurp them. (It seems a lot of egoist, 'playstation coaches' get the gig because no one else wants it or feels confident too, and I hope to find/support good people to step up or even the bad eggs to change their ways.)

Including one witness who just wanted to have another go at the fifteen year old referee

[Torquemada 1420]

England seem to totally ignore how Saracens attack (an attack built around him), for whom he tore apart most of the Premiership. It's radically different to what we're expecting him to do in an England shirt.

Whilst I have some sympathy with that viewpoint, the standard of rugby in the Prem doesn't equate to intl level.

This is fine and I have some sympathy for this also. However England players essentially have to play in the Prem so not sure what else we're comparing it to which is useful, and we hear an awful lot about how one of his main competitors for the jersey tears apart Prem teams from sixth in the table, so there is as there often is with Faz a 'heads I win, tails you lose' aspect to the point. Maybe the Sarries system won't adapt to the international game but it seems odd to pick someone and ask him to do something so radically different to what works so well for him week in week out, particularly as a lot of the same guys are in the England set up (there is also an element of this being true for Smith as well, of course).

With the massive caveat is that it's easy for him to look good behind a dominant Sarries pack in the Prem whereas at intl level it's, well, a different level and one where Eng are no longer dominant up front.

[Paddington Bear]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Jesus Christos, that coach is a friggin' twat! It's also disconcerting that people seemed to defend him / selectively ignore aggressive behaviour.

I keep teetering over whether or not I want to get involved with governance/development, and it's attitudes like this (not to mention the "game's gone soft" brigade constantly downplaying and even, imo, influencing decision makers away from making the game safer) which both cause me to hesitate... but also want to get in head-first to make sure these pricks get bounced out / the good people have support to usurp them. (It seems a lot of egoist, 'playstation coaches' get the gig because no one else wants it or feels confident too, and I hope to find/support good people to step up or even the bad eggs to change their ways.)

Including one witness who just wanted to have another go at the fifteen year old referee

Who given the unusual name and location I wonder if he is the ex-Northants batsman?

[Torquemada 1420]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Hah. That one at Olney. Have had a lot of friends and some clients play at Olney over the years and whilst it's very much the epitome of middle class+ English rugby (all Range Rovers and blazers), generally they have also always been old school: "respect the ref son" etc.

I guess there is always the risk of a moron anywhere like that Fullerians dad who tripped an oppos' kid as he was running near the touchline.

[Torquemada 1420]

Who given the unusual name and location I wonder if he is the ex-Northants batsman?

His son plays for Northants CC I think? I suppose he might have a rugby playing son too. Next time I'm over that way, I'll check if it was him.

[petej]

Simian on the glue again.

I do think we have messed Ford around a lot during his international career. He was only ever reluctantly backed and often dropped regardless of performance.

[Simian]

Simian on the glue again.

Fancy glue, but

I do think he is a superb player at the highest level that, for reasons I can’t fathom, hasn’t had the chance to show it

And I’m not English and have zero stake in this stuff.

[Paddington Bear]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Hah. That one at Olney. Have had a lot of friends and some clients play at Olney over the years and whilst it's very much the epitome of middle class+ English rugby (all Range Rovers and blazers), generally they have also always been old school: "respect the ref son" etc.

I guess there is always the risk of a moron anywhere like that Fullerians dad who tripped an oppos' kid as he was running near the touchline.

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

[Niegs]

I'm surprised there's not been one of those Yank-style doc series where they follow mini gridiron around and show what complete mental cases some of the coaches are.

[Sandstorm]

Simian on the glue again.

Fancy glue, but

I do think he is a superb player at the highest level that, for reasons I can’t fathom, hasn’t had the chance to show it

And I’m not English and have zero stake in this stuff.

Oh c’mon. If Ford was even standard Steven Donald level (let alone DC) then England fans would be screaming for him the last 2-3 years. Instead they’re backing Smith.

[Simian]

Simian on the glue again.

Fancy glue, but

I do think he is a superb player at the highest level that, for reasons I can’t fathom, hasn’t had the chance to show it

And I’m not English and have zero stake in this stuff.

Oh c’mon. If Ford was even standard Steven Donald level (let alone DC) then England fans would be screaming for him the last 2-3 years. Instead they’re backing Smith.

Fair the Dc thing might have been bait :)

Tbh tho, most English fans I know have been screaming for him to play until he was injured. I genuinely believe he’s a world class ten.

[sockwithaticket]

Simian on the glue again.

Fancy glue, but

I do think he is a superb player at the highest level that, for reasons I can’t fathom, hasn’t had the chance to show it

And I’m not English and have zero stake in this stuff.

Oh c’mon. If Ford was even standard Steven Donald level (let alone DC) then England fans would be screaming for him the last 2-3 years. Instead they’re backing Smith.

You're forgetting that most England fans are filthy casuals who barely follow even the national team and whose main memories of a good 10 are Johnny Wilkinson centric. Farrell's the closest thing we have to that (not entirely fair) archetype of solid defence and kicks goals. That combines with them seeing Ford occasionally get run over, but lacking the wherewithall to see what else he offers and know that the 10's role isn't defined by tackling, to denounce him.

I've never known anyone who actually knows anything about rugby who doesn't think Ford's great.

[Sandstorm]

Fancy glue, but

I do think he is a superb player at the highest level that, for reasons I can’t fathom, hasn’t had the chance to show it

And I’m not English and have zero stake in this stuff.

Oh c’mon. If Ford was even standard Steven Donald level (let alone DC) then England fans would be screaming for him the last 2-3 years. Instead they’re backing Smith.

You're forgetting that most England fans are filthy casuals who barely follow even the national team and whose main memories of a good 10 are Johnny Wilkinson centric. Farrell's the closest thing we have to that (not entirely fair) archetype of solid defence and kicks goals. That combines with them seeing Ford occasionally get run over, but lacking the wherewithall to see what else he offers and know that the 10's role isn't defined by tackling, to denounce him.

I've never known anyone who actually knows anything about rugby who doesn't think Ford's great.

You calling me a clueless, shithouse England fan-a-like?

[Slick]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Hah. That one at Olney. Have had a lot of friends and some clients play at Olney over the years and whilst it's very much the epitome of middle class+ English rugby (all Range Rovers and blazers), generally they have also always been old school: "respect the ref son" etc.

I guess there is always the risk of a moron anywhere like that Fullerians dad who tripped an oppos' kid as he was running near the touchline.

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

Used to love playing at Olney, great club. My sports teacher at school moved out that way and started playing for them so was a lot of fun going up against him and i’d stay over and go on the piss with the team after.

Re reffing there. One year I was involved in a little fisticuffs that started a wider brawl. Ref calmed it down and we started with a scrum, as soon as the ball came out a full on 30 man fight started. Ref blew his whistle and abandoned the game, at which point everyone started shaking hands and laughing - Ref walked off shouting “for fucks sake lads” at us. He ended up coming out that night as well. What a sport.

[sockwithaticket]

Oh c’mon. If Ford was even standard Steven Donald level (let alone DC) then England fans would be screaming for him the last 2-3 years. Instead they’re backing Smith.

You're forgetting that most England fans are filthy casuals who barely follow even the national team and whose main memories of a good 10 are Johnny Wilkinson centric. Farrell's the closest thing we have to that (not entirely fair) archetype of solid defence and kicks goals. That combines with them seeing Ford occasionally get run over, but lacking the wherewithall to see what else he offers and know that the 10's role isn't defined by tackling, to denounce him.

I've never known anyone who actually knows anything about rugby who doesn't think Ford's great.

You calling me a clueless, shithouse England fan-a-like?

[Sandstorm]

[sockwithaticket]

It's ok, though, you have now been given the revelation that Ford is in fact the second coming and can join the ranks of the enlightened.

[Sandstorm]

It's ok, though, you have now been given the revelation that Ford is in fact the second coming and can join the ranks of the enlightened.

He’s going to crush it against Chile on 23 September

[Guy Smiley]

On a serious note now that Sandstorm's been outed, Rugby has to get its shit sorted out regarding rubbish suspensions and inconsistent penalties / suspensions. They've come out spouting about the need to protect the head and fold every time there's a high profile player up facing a review. It's embarrassing.

[SaintK]

Been reading quite a few.
1) fuck me there is a lot of homophobic abuse in rugby
2) https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/23/2 ... tDec22.pdf This one has absolutely boiled my blood - what a prick

Hah. That one at Olney. Have had a lot of friends and some clients play at Olney over the years and whilst it's very much the epitome of middle class+ English rugby (all Range Rovers and blazers), generally they have also always been old school: "respect the ref son" etc.

I guess there is always the risk of a moron anywhere like that Fullerians dad who tripped an oppos' kid as he was running near the touchline.

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

I played for Buckingham in the 1970's before they moved out of town to Maids Moreton
I can assure that there were no Range Rovers at Bletchley or the newly formed Milton Keynes who changed their name from Newport Pagnell in t5hose days

[Torquemada 1420]

On a serious note now that Sandstorm's been outed, Rugby has to get its shit sorted out regarding rubbish suspensions and inconsistent penalties / suspensions. They've come out spouting about the need to protect the head and fold every time there's a high profile player up facing a review. It's embarrassing.

Yup. And more than embarrassing, is going to result in even more ambulance chaser involvement.

As someone else pointed out earlier, I can think of no modern era int player with as bad a track record for head shots than Farrell.

[Torquemada 1420]

Hah. That one at Olney. Have had a lot of friends and some clients play at Olney over the years and whilst it's very much the epitome of middle class+ English rugby (all Range Rovers and blazers), generally they have also always been old school: "respect the ref son" etc.

I guess there is always the risk of a moron anywhere like that Fullerians dad who tripped an oppos' kid as he was running near the touchline.

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

I played for Buckingham in the 1970's before they moved out of town to Maids Moreton
I can assure that there were no Range Rovers at Bletchley or the newly formed Milton Keynes who changed their name from Newport Pagnell in t5hose days

I didn't get around to pointing this out to Paddington i.e. Bucks excluding Milton Keynes!

FWIW, Milton Keynes did not change it's name from Newport Pagnell. It was re-formed from Wolverton Rugby (after a long hiatus between the Wars) by a PE teacher at the then grammar school (Ced Parry). Until then, being a railway town, most played football but those more in the professional classes played cricket. They played on a recreation field in Wolverton, HQ'd in a pub and used the railway work's bath house for ablutions. Later they played as MK in a sh*thole new estate called Greenleys before it was sold for housing and they then relocated to a slightly less rough, but equally soulless lego-land estate at Emerson Valley. These days, most serious rugby people in the area will play for Bletchley or Ampthill.

I was at Bletchley Rugby on Sunday and worryingly mass lego-land housing is being built at a rate of knots towards their pitches. One wonders how long before MK Council shafts them too for some backhanders from builders.

[Slick]

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

I played for Buckingham in the 1970's before they moved out of town to Maids Moreton
I can assure that there were no Range Rovers at Bletchley or the newly formed Milton Keynes who changed their name from Newport Pagnell in t5hose days

I didn't get around to pointing this out to Paddington i.e. Bucks excluding Milton Keynes!

FWIW, Milton Keynes did not change it's name from Newport Pagnell. It was re-formed from Wolverton Rugby (after a long hiatus between the Wars) by a PE teacher at the then grammar school (Ced Parry). Until then, being a railway town, most played football but those more in the professional classes played cricket. They played on a recreation field in Wolverton, HQ'd in a pub and used the railway work's bath house for ablutions. Later they played as MK in a sh*thole new estate called Greenleys before it was sold for housing and they then relocated to a slightly less rough, but equally soulless lego-land estate at Emerson Valley. These days, most serious rugby people in the area will play for Bletchley or Ampthill.

I was at Bletchley Rugby on Sunday and worryingly mass lego-land housing is being built at a rate of knots towards their pitches. One wonders how long before MK Council shafts them too for some backhanders from builders.

Yeah, I've played at Milton Keynes, not the most beautiful surroundings but a nice enough club as I remember.

[Paddington Bear]

I played for Buckingham in the 1970's before they moved out of town to Maids Moreton
I can assure that there were no Range Rovers at Bletchley or the newly formed Milton Keynes who changed their name from Newport Pagnell in t5hose days

I didn't get around to pointing this out to Paddington i.e. Bucks excluding Milton Keynes!

FWIW, Milton Keynes did not change it's name from Newport Pagnell. It was re-formed from Wolverton Rugby (after a long hiatus between the Wars) by a PE teacher at the then grammar school (Ced Parry). Until then, being a railway town, most played football but those more in the professional classes played cricket. They played on a recreation field in Wolverton, HQ'd in a pub and used the railway work's bath house for ablutions. Later they played as MK in a sh*thole new estate called Greenleys before it was sold for housing and they then relocated to a slightly less rough, but equally soulless lego-land estate at Emerson Valley. These days, most serious rugby people in the area will play for Bletchley or Ampthill.

I was at Bletchley Rugby on Sunday and worryingly mass lego-land housing is being built at a rate of knots towards their pitches. One wonders how long before MK Council shafts them too for some backhanders from builders.

Yeah, I've played at Milton Keynes, not the most beautiful surroundings but a nice enough club as I remember.

Yeah MK and Bletchley would probably be the two non Range Rover options (I stick in the Chilterns unless I can't help it ). MK's new ground (probably a decade old or so now) had all the bells and whistles but I have a suspicion it was built by Barratt or someone and is likely already falling down. Wolverton still have a cricket club, albeit they are a shadow of what they were even 10 years ago, MK lacks any properly strong rugby or cricket club which is a little bizarre.

[SaintK]

Yeah we’d play them a lot in the county cup etc (not sure how many Buckinghamshire clubs don’t fall into the Range Rover category!) generally struck me as a proper club and not the kind of place you’d think would put up with that. However junior sections are always a law unto themselves to some extent and the bloke is a solicitor so will have had to report himself to the SRA with potentially career limiting consequences over this, which as the RFU elude to probably helps explain how vehement his defence was.

I played for Buckingham in the 1970's before they moved out of town to Maids Moreton
I can assure that there were no Range Rovers at Bletchley or the newly formed Milton Keynes who changed their name from Newport Pagnell in t5hose days

I didn't get around to pointing this out to Paddington i.e. Bucks excluding Milton Keynes!

FWIW, Milton Keynes did not change it's name from Newport Pagnell. It was re-formed from Wolverton Rugby (after a long hiatus between the Wars) by a PE teacher at the then grammar school (Ced Parry). Until then, being a railway town, most played football but those more in the professional classes played cricket. They played on a recreation field in Wolverton, HQ'd in a pub and used the railway work's bath house for ablutions. Later they played as MK in a sh*thole new estate called Greenleys before it was sold for housing and they then relocated to a slightly less rough, but equally soulless lego-land estate at Emerson Valley. These days, most serious rugby people in the area will play for Bletchley or Ampthill.

I was at Bletchley Rugby on Sunday and worryingly mass lego-land housing is being built at a rate of knots towards their pitches. One wonders how long before MK Council shafts them too for some backhanders from builders.

Bugger, I guessed wrong, I knew it was Wolverton or NP!!
Played at the MK Greenleys pitch a couple of times and yep a shithole!!
I do hope Bletchley survive as is, always a good bunch in the old days, a proper club. Some good village pubs on the way back to Buckingham as well.

[JM2K6]

He's been cleared. Panel decided the push and change in direction mitigated it down to yellow.

Great news for the England camp who can now continue without disruption.

Absolutely bonkers decision, obviously. Taking my England hat off, this is yet another in a long line of decisions that prove they do not give a fuck about player safety at all.

[inactionman]

He's been cleared. Panel decided the push and change in direction mitigated it down to yellow.

Great news for the England camp who can now continue without disruption.

Absolutely bonkers decision, obviously. Taking my England hat off, this is yet another in a long line of decisions that prove they do not give a fuck about player safety at all.

What exactly do the Rugby Gods have against George Ford.

It's not his fault he's the son of Mike.

[Brazil]

That really is not a good look for rugby.

[Simian]

Jesus

[assfly]

Unbelievable. Lost for words.

[C69]

Fuck player safety

Corrupt and stupid

[Raggs]

Insane decision. From what I'm aware the board were aussies? The SH is 5 years behind (or more) when it comes to head injuries/high tackles.

[Slick]

It’s all I can do

I don’t think I’ve seen one person, including Inglanders, that didn’t think it was a clear red