Kicking off in Israel

[fishfoodie]

Hamas wants a propaganda victory - Regev

More from Mark Regev, senior adviser to the Israeli prime minister, who's been speaking to BBC News about the blast at the hospital in Gaza.

"I urge you to be cautious. There are very serious indications that it’s not us."

"Hamas wants to have a propaganda victory, saying Israel has killed innocent civilians."

"There’s no evidence to support that claim," Regev said.

The BBC is working to verify what happened at the hospital on Tuesday evening.

Not nearly as absolute as the original gambit that it was all the fault of IJ; is it ?

We're now going down the Bart Simpson path of, "No one saw me do it !"

[fishfoodie]

I give up. It's like talking to the wall. A stupid wall

This isn't a cowboy movie, & there's no guys in black hats, & Randolf Scott in his white hat,to let us know who to cheer for.

It's a complete & utter shit show, with one side making some effort to not kill civilians, & the other side making no effort at all.

[Uncle fester]

Was it ever established if the beheaded babies story was factual?

Not sure about babies, but I believe I can confirm at the very least toddlers, though I wish I couldn't, babies were definitely killed. Can also tell you that the female sentries that were keeping lookout for some of the kibbutzes had their eyes plucked out of their skulls before being murdered. Burning tyres were rolled into houses to drive people out so they could be shot (or remain in and die of smoke/burns). Plenty of rapes too before murders.

Yes they were killed and mutilated but were there heads removed. That's imortant here Raggs

Well it's important because you appear to be holding the Israeli government to a lower standard of honesty than Hamas.

[Guy Smiley]

Yes they were killed and mutilated but were there heads removed. That's imortant here Raggs

Well it's important because you appear to be holding the Israeli government to a lower standard of honesty than Hamas.

You are dying on the wrong hill here

Not at all... like a few others, your posting on the topic comes over as emotional and unbalanced.

[Tichtheid]

Lots of different videos floating around.

How come all of your sources are from really a right wing stand point?

Not only on this but on other topics? There is no seeking balance at all.

I've refrained from posting on this thread bar the pointing out the wing nut posts, this is perilously close.

You've got to check your sources and look to what the motivation might be behind them. Your source is from the Right Wing of the government in that country and he was an outspoken critic and opposer of the Disengagement Plan in Gaza.

The issues in the Middle East are extremely complicated but reduction of everything that opposes your point of view to "something something Lefty" is facile in the extreme.

[Slick]

Was it ever established if the beheaded babies story was factual?

Not sure about babies, but I believe I can confirm at the very least toddlers, though I wish I couldn't, babies were definitely killed. Can also tell you that the female sentries that were keeping lookout for some of the kibbutzes had their eyes plucked out of their skulls before being murdered. Burning tyres were rolled into houses to drive people out so they could be shot (or remain in and die of smoke/burns). Plenty of rapes too before murders.

Yes they were killed and mutilated but were there heads removed. That's imortant here Raggs

That’s a very strange post

[I like neeps]

Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

[Guy Smiley]

You are dying on the wrong hill here

Not at all... like a few others, your posting on the topic comes over as emotional and unbalanced.

Whats that meant to mean. It's just garbled nonsense and in no way connected to the argument Fester and I are having. Stick your oar in elsewhere and with a bit more thought

I find that whenever anyone tries to engage on this topic (going back years now of online exchanges linked to PR) that any sort of standing up to the Israeli position will result in the sort of response you provide here...

a sort of online raising the hands above the head and shouting. About anything. Just shouting... and waving the hands.

[Uncle fester]

Yes they were killed and mutilated but were there heads removed. That's imortant here Raggs

Well it's important because you appear to be holding the Israeli government to a lower standard of honesty than Hamas.

You are dying on the wrong hill here

The question is important because it's being used to justify collective punishment against the entirety of Gaza (and the west bank settlers are taking advantage of the chaos also).

Israel has form for this. The kidnapping of several Israeli soldiers in 2006 was used to justify leveling half of Lebanon, including the super petty move of bombing their ski slopes.

[Ymx]

Lots of different videos floating around.

How come all of your sources are from really a right wing stand point?

Not only on this but on other topics? There is no seeking balance at all.

I've refrained from posting on this thread bar the pointing out the wing nut posts, this is perilously close.

You've got to check your sources and look to what the motivation might be behind them. Your source is from the Right Wing of the government in that country and he was an outspoken critic and opposer of the Disengagement Plan in Gaza.

The issues in the Middle East are extremely complicated but reduction of everything that opposes your point of view to "something something Lefty" is facile in the extreme.

It came about simply because there are claims of videos captured by Israeli forces which show the explosion was not from Israel.

Of bloody course they are going to come from that side of the equation.

Stop chipping in with your self superiority moderation.

[Uncle fester]

Lots of different videos floating around.

How come all of your sources are from really a right wing stand point?

Not only on this but on other topics? There is no seeking balance at all.

I've refrained from posting on this thread bar the pointing out the wing nut posts, this is perilously close.

You've got to check your sources and look to what the motivation might be behind them. Your source is from the Right Wing of the government in that country and he was an outspoken critic and opposer of the Disengagement Plan in Gaza.

The issues in the Middle East are extremely complicated but reduction of everything that opposes your point of view to "something something Lefty" is facile in the extreme.

It came about simply because there are claims of videos captured by Israeli forces which show the explosion was not from Israel.

Of bloody course they are going to come from that side of the equation.

Stop chipping in with your self superiority moderation.

Can't be listening to Dinghy people now, can we?

[Raggs]

[Margin__Walker]

Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

To what end would Israel purposefully bomb a hospital it knew to be in use? There is absolutely no logical operational reason for them to do that. The evacuation order was likely in advance of a ground invasion to clear the ground (albeit impossibly impractical for the hospitals themselves)

Could they have bombed it in error? Sure, and the result is the same ultimately. Potentially involving criminal recklessness.

That said, there's ordinance flying about from both sides here, so whilst clearly more fingers will be pointed at Israel it's not a given.

[fishfoodie]

Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

Yeah, & as I've said, Israel & Hamas/IJ/Hezbollah all have form on this, with one side deliberately setting up targets right beside schools/hospitals/OAP homes etc, etc & the other side not giving a shit & firing the shells at the targets anyway, & then blaming the terrorists when civilians get killed.

Not so long ago, the IDF shelled a UN position in the Leb, killing Irish peacekeepers, & blamed the Hez guys who'd fired missiles at Israel from there, despite them being there for months, & the IDF being well aware of that fact.

The IDF had then & now, had the choice of not committing war crimes, & knew with 99% probability that that's what would happen, & they made their choice.

A War crime, is a war crime, is a war crime, & I don't give a fuck if it committed by some smelly, hairy arsed nutter in a cave, or a shiny suited, Ivy League graduate !!!

[Calculon]

I often find people who destroy a hospital and kill hundreds admit to it readily.

The likes of Hamas and Isis, and their supporters, will not only admit to it , but openly celebrate it

[I like neeps]

Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

To what end would Israel purposefully bomb a hospital it knew to be in use? There is absolutely no logical operational reason for them to do that. The evacuation order was likely in advance of a ground invasion to clear the ground (albeit impossibly impractical for the hospitals themselves)

Could they have bombed it in error? Sure, and the result is the same ultimately. Potentially involving criminal recklessness.

That said, there's ordinance flying about from both sides here, so whilst clearly more fingers will be pointed at Israel it's not a given.

Yeah it's been a stated aim to use weapons for damage not accuracy. When you're bombing cities for damage you're targeting civilians really.

[Margin__Walker]

Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

To what end would Israel purposefully bomb a hospital it knew to be in use? There is absolutely no logical operational reason for them to do that. The evacuation order was likely in advance of a ground invasion to clear the ground (albeit impossibly impractical for the hospitals themselves)

Could they have bombed it in error? Sure, and the result is the same ultimately. Potentially involving criminal recklessness.

That said, there's ordinance flying about from both sides here, so whilst clearly more fingers will be pointed at Israel it's not a given.

Yeah it's been a stated aim to use weapons for damage not accuracy. When you're bombing cities for damage you're targeting civilians really.

Stated aim where? Its not Hamburg 1944 and carpet bombing.

They are aiming at things. There's still potential for huge recklessness and large civilian casualties by the very nature of the endeavor. That could absolutely end up being criminal when all is said and done, but one thing they won't have done is specifically target a hospital.

[Line6 HXFX]

We need a reset. An acceptance that after 70 odd years, the shit ain't working.
That illegally acquired real estate, with the evicted former residents crying on your front lawn, at gun point.l.. was always a pretty poor investment opportunity for Israelies.

When you are bombing Hospitals..
to keep your flat..
Well not sure even Donald Trump
would contemplate that.

Time to accept the loss and move to Colorado, earlier the better.....and then hopefully not for a life of regret and shame.

[Uncle fester]

Biden has cancelled Jordan leg of visit.

[Tichtheid]

It came about simply because there are claims of videos captured by Israeli forces which show the explosion was not from Israel.

Of bloody course they are going to come from that side of the equation.

Stop chipping in with your self superiority moderation.

The only certainty in this conflict is that there is none.

It's just worth considering the source of information and what their motivation might be, if we don't do that we are being gullible.

Right now I have no idea who fired the missile that killed those people, there are claims and counter claims, I don't have confidence in any of them.

[Ymx]

That’s probably the worst account and video I’ve seen so far.

[Ymx]

As someone put in the comments

[SaintK]

Do you seriously have no issue with them avoiding calling Hamas terrorists.

Badly worded and rushed reply on phone in back of taxi!
Of course they are terrorists and and all news outlets should refer to them as such

[Raggs]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical

Suggest just going through that account.

Not only does it look very likely to have been a rocket, not a bomb, but it looks like it was the car park that was hit, and the hospital is seemingly intact, and the likelyhood of the number of deaths claimed by The Gazan Health ministry (or more suitably named, the Hamas led Gazan Health Authority) seems quite unlikely.

[Tichtheid]

John Simpson, BBC World Affairs Editor

Government ministers, newspaper columnists, ordinary people - they're all asking why the BBC doesn't say the Hamas gunmen who carried out appalling atrocities in southern Israel are terrorists.
The answer goes right back to the BBC's founding principles.

Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
We regularly point out that the British and other governments have condemned Hamas as a terrorist organisation, but that's their business. We also run interviews with guests and quote contributors who describe Hamas as terrorists.

The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts, and let them make up their own minds.
As it happens, of course, many of the people who've attacked us for not using the word terrorist have seen our pictures, heard our audio or read our stories, and made up their minds on the basis of our reporting, so it's not as though we're hiding the truth in any way - far from it.
Any reasonable person would be appalled by the kind of thing we've seen. It's perfectly reasonable to call the incidents that have occurred "atrocities", because that's exactly what they are.
No-one can possibly defend the murder of civilians, especially children and even babies - nor attacks on innocent, peace-loving people who are attending a music festival.

During the 50 years I've been reporting on events in the Middle East, I've seen for myself the aftermath of attacks like this one in Israel, and I've also seen the aftermath of Israeli bomb and artillery attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon and Gaza. The horror of things like that stay in your mind forever.
But this doesn't mean that we should start saying that the organisation whose supporters have carried them out is a terrorist organisation, because that would mean we were abandoning our duty to stay objective.
And it's always been like this in the BBC. During World War Two, BBC broadcasters were expressly told not to call the Nazis evil or wicked, even though we could and did call them "the enemy".
"Above all," said a BBC document about all this, "there must be no room for ranting". Our tone had to be calm and collected.

It was hard to keep that principle going when the IRA was bombing Britain and killing innocent civilians, but we did. There was huge pressure from the government of Margaret Thatcher on the BBC, and on individual reporters like me about this - especially after the Brighton bombing, where she just escaped death and so many other innocent people were killed and injured.
But we held the line. And we still do, to this day.

We don't take sides. We don't use loaded words like "evil" or "cowardly". We don't talk about "terrorists". And we're not the only ones to follow this line. Some of the world's most respected news organisations have exactly the same policy.
But the BBC gets particular attention, partly because we've got strong critics in politics and in the press, and partly because we're rightly held to an especially high standard. But part of keeping to that high standard is to be as objective as it's possible to be.
That's why people in Britain and right round the world, in huge numbers, watch, read and listen to what we say, every single day.

[Line6 HXFX]

Leaving the country together.


https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/j ... -long-time

The Israeli newspaper Maariv reported this week on a new movement whose goal is to facilitate the emigration of Israeli Jews to the United States following the recent Israeli elections, which, in their view, alters the Zionist state’s relationship to religion.

The group, which calls itself “Leaving the country - together”, plans to move 10,000 Israeli Jews in the first stage of its plan. Leaders of the group include Israeli anti-Netanyahu activist Yaniv Gorelik and Israeli-American businessman Mordechai Kahana.

The departure of Jewish colonists from Palestine is hardly a new phenomenon

Kahana, who has historically been active in bringing Jewish colonists to Israel, told the newspaper: “After years of smuggling Jews from war zones in Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria, and Ukraine to Israel, I decided to help Israelis make Aliyah to the US… it is time to offer the Zionist movement an alternative in case things in Israel keep getting worse.”

Kahana added: “I saw people in WhatsApp groups talking about the immigration of Israelis to Romania or Greece, but I personally think that it will be a lot easier for them to immigrate to the US.

"I have a huge farm in New Jersey, and I offered Israelis to join in order to turn my farm into a kibbutz… with such a government in Israel, the American government should let every Israeli who owns a company or has a sought-after profession in the US such as doctors and pilots, immigrate to the US."

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The Israeli newspaper Maariv reported this week on a new movement whose goal is to facilitate the emigration of Israeli Jews to the United States following the recent Israeli elections, which, in their view, alters the Zionist state’s relationship to religion.

The group, which calls itself “Leaving the country - together”, plans to move 10,000 Israeli Jews in the first stage of its plan. Leaders of the group include Israeli anti-Netanyahu activist Yaniv Gorelik and Israeli-American businessman Mordechai Kahana.

The departure of Jewish colonists from Palestine is hardly a new phenomenon

Kahana, who has historically been active in bringing Jewish colonists to Israel, told the newspaper: “After years of smuggling Jews from war zones in Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria, and Ukraine to Israel, I decided to help Israelis make Aliyah to the US… it is time to offer the Zionist movement an alternative in case things in Israel keep getting worse.”

Kahana added: “I saw people in WhatsApp groups talking about the immigration of Israelis to Romania or Greece, but I personally think that it will be a lot easier for them to immigrate to the US.

"I have a huge farm in New Jersey, and I offered Israelis to join in order to turn my farm into a kibbutz… with such a government in Israel, the American government should let every Israeli who owns a company or has a sought-after profession in the US such as doctors and pilots, immigrate to the US."

[Glaston]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical

Suggest just going through that account.

Not only does it look very likely to have been a rocket, not a bomb, but it looks like it was the car park that was hit, and the hospital is seemingly intact, and the likelyhood of the number of deaths claimed by The Gazan Health ministry (or more suitably named, the Hamas led Gazan Health Authority) seems quite unlikely.

Car park was full of people taking refuge.
The number of people in it was a lot less than on saturday when it was hit by shrapnel/debris and a number of people also died/injured

[Sandstorm]

Benjamin Netanyahu calls them "Hamas" every time he steps in front of the lectern. Dunno why everyone is getting itchy because the BBC use the same term.

[Guy Smiley]

John Simpson, BBC World Affairs Editor

Government ministers, newspaper columnists, ordinary people - they're all asking why the BBC doesn't say the Hamas gunmen who carried out appalling atrocities in southern Israel are terrorists.
The answer goes right back to the BBC's founding principles.

Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
We regularly point out that the British and other governments have condemned Hamas as a terrorist organisation, but that's their business. We also run interviews with guests and quote contributors who describe Hamas as terrorists.

The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts, and let them make up their own minds.
As it happens, of course, many of the people who've attacked us for not using the word terrorist have seen our pictures, heard our audio or read our stories, and made up their minds on the basis of our reporting, so it's not as though we're hiding the truth in any way - far from it.
Any reasonable person would be appalled by the kind of thing we've seen. It's perfectly reasonable to call the incidents that have occurred "atrocities", because that's exactly what they are.
No-one can possibly defend the murder of civilians, especially children and even babies - nor attacks on innocent, peace-loving people who are attending a music festival.

During the 50 years I've been reporting on events in the Middle East, I've seen for myself the aftermath of attacks like this one in Israel, and I've also seen the aftermath of Israeli bomb and artillery attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon and Gaza. The horror of things like that stay in your mind forever.
But this doesn't mean that we should start saying that the organisation whose supporters have carried them out is a terrorist organisation, because that would mean we were abandoning our duty to stay objective.
And it's always been like this in the BBC. During World War Two, BBC broadcasters were expressly told not to call the Nazis evil or wicked, even though we could and did call them "the enemy".
"Above all," said a BBC document about all this, "there must be no room for ranting". Our tone had to be calm and collected.

It was hard to keep that principle going when the IRA was bombing Britain and killing innocent civilians, but we did. There was huge pressure from the government of Margaret Thatcher on the BBC, and on individual reporters like me about this - especially after the Brighton bombing, where she just escaped death and so many other innocent people were killed and injured.
But we held the line. And we still do, to this day.

We don't take sides. We don't use loaded words like "evil" or "cowardly". We don't talk about "terrorists". And we're not the only ones to follow this line. Some of the world's most respected news organisations have exactly the same policy.
But the BBC gets particular attention, partly because we've got strong critics in politics and in the press, and partly because we're rightly held to an especially high standard. But part of keeping to that high standard is to be as objective as it's possible to be.
That's why people in Britain and right round the world, in huge numbers, watch, read and listen to what we say, every single day.

This is so important in today's world of loaded quickbites.

[Calculon]

Maybe some posters on here got a bit too excited

[Slick]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical

Suggest just going through that account.

Not only does it look very likely to have been a rocket, not a bomb, but it looks like it was the car park that was hit, and the hospital is seemingly intact, and the likelyhood of the number of deaths claimed by The Gazan Health ministry (or more suitably named, the Hamas led Gazan Health Authority) seems quite unlikely.

I'm not commenting either way, as I don't know. But are the rockets powerful enough to do as much damage as is being claimed?

[Ymx]

Maybe some posters on here got a bit too excited

And some BBC correspondents

[Ymx]

Ooops

[Raggs]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical

Suggest just going through that account.

Not only does it look very likely to have been a rocket, not a bomb, but it looks like it was the car park that was hit, and the hospital is seemingly intact, and the likelyhood of the number of deaths claimed by The Gazan Health ministry (or more suitably named, the Hamas led Gazan Health Authority) seems quite unlikely.

I'm not commenting either way, as I don't know. But are the rockets powerful enough to do as much damage as is being claimed?

Some of them are. Some of the rockets they launch are capable of carrying a 150kg payload I believe, though they often put less on them to increase the range, but even then, I'm sure it's enough to do significant damage.

But if you look at the video from the site the morning after, it really doesn't look like there's that much explosive damage. No big crater in the car park, most the damage is fire damage. I'm sure whoever released the tiktok would have shown a massive hole in the hospital if one existed.

[TB63]

[Ymx]

Oops

[Guy Smiley]

Oops

I know you think you're ont he trail of a hot take here schnouser but you do understand the whole 'convicted' thing, right?

[Ymx]

Oops

I know you think you're ont he trail of a hot take here schnouser but you do understand the whole 'convicted' thing, right?

And you understand that Hamas is legally declared as a terrorist organisation right? In the UK. Right?

[tabascoboy]

[Guy Smiley]

Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
We regularly point out that the British and other governments have condemned Hamas as a terrorist organisation, but that's their business. We also run interviews with guests and quote contributors who describe Hamas as terrorists.

The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts, and let them make up their own minds.
As it happens, of course, many of the people who've attacked us for not using the word terrorist have seen our pictures, heard our audio or read our stories, and made up their minds on the basis of our reporting, so it's not as though we're hiding the truth in any way - far from it.