RWC SF2 England vs Springboks on 21/10 @ 21h00

[Slick]

Raining in Paris, probably tomorrow as well.

Will be pretty windy as well.

[Sandstorm]

Saturday will be the first time in (10?) years I've been to the pub for Boks vs England Test match. Dunno what to expect really, apart from expensive beer and a much worse view of the telly.

I'll wear a Bok jersey, so that the patrons don't have to rely on my posh Cape Town accent to know which team I support.

[OomStruisbaai]

I'll wear a Bok jersey, so that the patrons don't have to rely on my posh Cape Town accent to know which team I support.

IF the Bokke win, will jou be able to use "jou ma se ..." in the pub?

[Sards]

I'll wear a Bok jersey, so that the patrons don't have to rely on my posh Cape Town accent to know which team I support.

IF the Bokke win, will jou be able to use "jou ma se ..." in the pub?

All I ask please........may the losers be a little more gracious than the French....vok me

[Blake]

Weather forecast for Paris doesn't look great for Saturday.
Not sure if that will help us or hurt us.

Its the big leveller. We know how kak Libbok play in that NH conditions.

My concern too Oom. Manie still struggles a bit in the wet. I think the is match will not be as exciting at the QF. Lots of mistakes by both teams. Very stop start affair with a lot of scrums.

We should be fine come scrum time, but you never know. The ref might spot something specific (or miss something the opposition does) and just focus on that and then your scrum is useless. A lot of it is reputation though, so maybe I’m worried about nothing. I guess we’ll see.

If it proves to be a scrum battle for 80 mins will also be a true test of Fourie at hooker. So bar he’s been brilliant I think, but he hasn’t really been tested at 2 in the scrum. I’m hoping he lives up to faith I have in him.

[OomStruisbaai]

I'll wear a Bok jersey, so that the patrons don't have to rely on my posh Cape Town accent to know which team I support.

IF the Bokke win, will jou be able to use "jou ma se ..." in the pub?

All I ask please........may the losers be a little more gracious than the French....vok me

Very true Sards, its only a sport, thats all. Compare this to you fighting the big C, thats a real fight. You are our hero.

[Sandstorm]

I'll wear a Bok jersey, so that the patrons don't have to rely on my posh Cape Town accent to know which team I support.

IF the Bokke win, will jou be able to use "jou ma se ..." in the pub?

I use "Gaan kak in die mielies...."

[Paddington Bear]

Tindall does this every world cup. Enjoy

Dawson will be next

Last time out before the final he said he didn't know who Am was. It's just amusing. That account is retweeted by Boks sometimes, I guess they've got a laugh from it too.

It's a shame, this England side have been written off but they're not that bad. Steward was a good selection and will be crucial for England, obvious there's something that could be said for England that not many are saying, kicking (Steward's selection)/England's lineout/England's defence.

Fans saying England will get hammered is a bit of a defence mechanism really to soften the blow of the expected defeat. It's definitely a possibility (we got murdered by the French in the 6N), but it wouldn't be my expectation. Knock out rugby can be pretty cagey and tighter than expected.

There's certainly a path to victory for England, but it's a narrow one. The Boks are well coached and they are better players man for man for most of the 23. Any England victory would need to be built on the defence really firing and knocking SA confidence in their ability to punch holes. The scrum needs something close to parity, as you can't win games conceding pens at every set piece. Finally we'll need to avoid our veteran wings and built like a back row FB being exploited too when the game breaks up by that Bok back 3.

All very difficult, but possible. It's a cliché, but the big one is the defence. Stop the opposition on or behind the gainline and funny things can start to happen. Would need guys like Itoje, Lawes, Curry and Tuilagi to wind back the years and put in a massive shift.

Most big England wins in recentish times have started with a big punch to the mouth, usually a well executed set piece try, right at the start that have knock the oppo totally off balance. That’s a critical element for me - the boks will be tired emotionally as much as anything and try as they might they will be thinking about a final.

I remember from years and years ago (IIRC Cipriani’s first start or one of them) against the boks we grubbered the kick off short which forced a ruck pen within 15 seconds that we knocked over to go 3-0, even something like that I think is worth considering (though IIRC we lost that game by 20 points)

[Sandstorm]

We should be fine come scrum time, but you never know. T

I'm worried about Kitshoff. He's been face-planting every week in the dry....

[Margin__Walker]

Most big England wins in recentish times have started with a big punch to the mouth, usually a well executed set piece try, right at the start that have knock the oppo totally off balance. That’s a critical element for me - the boks will be tired emotionally as much as anything and try as they might they will be thinking about a final.

I remember from years and years ago (IIRC Cipriani’s first start or one of them) against the boks we grubbered the kick off short which forced a ruck pen within 15 seconds that we knocked over to go 3-0, even something like that I think is worth considering (though IIRC we lost that game by 20 points)

That's a good point. There seemed to be a period a while ago where we specialised in early tries a couple of minutes in. Not sure whether real or imagined, but we could do with a fast start again on Sunday as it can sometimes put the opposition off their game

[OomStruisbaai]

We should be fine come scrum time, but you never know. T

I'm worried about Kitshoff. He's been face-planting every week in the dry....

I feel much more at ease when Ox enter the frame.

[Sandstorm]

We should be fine come scrum time, but you never know. T

I'm worried about Kitshoff. He's been face-planting every week in the dry....

I feel much more at ease when Ox enter the frame.

Me too. Thank goodness Kitshoff is Connaught's problem next season.

[OomStruisbaai]

I'm worried about Kitshoff. He's been face-planting every week in the dry....

I feel much more at ease when Ox enter the frame.

Me too. Thank goodness Kitshoff is Connaught's problem next season.

You mean Ulster.

[OomStruisbaai]

The real worry about the starting XV is that we need to deal with Curry. He is very good at the breakdowns and Duanne is our only poacher. Thats where Kitsie got it wrong.

[Slick]

I really rate Warburton as a columnist, or whatever he is, thought this was good, if a little gentle on England:

So you’re telling me there is a chance?” is the famous quote from Jim Carrey’s character in the film Dumb and Dumber, and I’m here to tell you now that I do think there is a chance that England can beat South Africa in Saturday’s World Cup semi-final.

Of course, the champions South Africa are huge favourites, having beaten the hosts France — the side that I tipped to win this World Cup — and if I had to put my mortgage on either side, it would be on them. But England have made significant improvements throughout this tournament and in the quarter-final victory over Fiji there were further signs of encouragement.

The key thing is that the things that France got wrong in last weekend’s quarter-final, England can put right overnight. If you look at the tries South Africa scored, they didn’t really create anything. The first two tries came from France’s inability to receive high balls and South Africa scored two phases later.

So, England have brought in arguably the best aerial player in the world in Freddie Steward to counter that and that was a change I would have made whether or not Marcus Smith was fit to play.

As for the Eben Etzebeth try that was crucial at the end of the match, that is such an underrated tactic. It was a huge second-row running at a fly half in Matthieu Jalibert. Big man beats small man. Simple.

That is so much easier to manufacture than people think. When Robin McBryde was forwards coach with Wales, it was something he constantly stressed to us. He encouraged us, as forwards with the ball in hand, to step out and look for the opposition No 10. You see so many huge collisions near the line between forwards and then you look two players to the left of the tackler and there is a back standing there. “Run into him,” McBryde would say.

Targeting the opposition fly half is a tactic as old as the hills, but it still works. England must target Manie Libbok because it was telling that the French centre Jonathan Danty ran over the South African fly half a few times last Sunday. It is an obvious area of weakness.

And England will not have that problem because Owen Farrell is back where he should be at fly half and no one is going to run over him. I remember a game against England when Alun Wyn Jones was shouting: “Get at Farrell! Let’s get at Farrell!” and Farrell just looked him in the eye and said: “Come on then, run at me,” possibly with the odd expletive thrown in too. You don’t get too many fly halves saying that.

If anyone is in any doubt about the Farrell versus George Ford debate at fly half for England, I would just tell them to look at that Etzebeth try. You cannot afford to have that sort of defensive frailty against South Africa. Ford is brave and he tackles, but he is a small man. And, of course, Farrell offers so much more beyond his defence, as he showed against Fiji last weekend, where his game management and leadership were superb.


The South African wing Cheslin Kolbe is very susceptible in the air, so there is nothing wrong with England almost shamelessly and obviously going after him, just as I remember back in the day England going after the French full back Serge Blanco, kicking to him and almost the whole pack running over him afterwards.

It was noticeable that all the sides who won their quarter-finals last weekend won their respective battles at the breakdown. When the pressure and the stakes are raised as high as they are now, it is that area of the game that becomes ever more important, and South Africa were absolutely immense there against France. They competed at more than half of the rucks.

But England were also very good there too. In the previous match, against Samoa, they had competed at only one in four rucks. Courtney Lawes competed six times, Tom Curry three and Ben Earl four. That is just nowhere near enough for a back row.

Against Fiji, England competed at nearly half the rucks. Lawes’s figure was 13, Curry’s 12 and Earl’s seven. It was a dramatic improvement and clearly the defence coach, Kevin Sinfield, had told them that they had to go after the breakdown because Fiji play at such a high tempo.

Earl has been magnificent, in my opinion one of the best back-rowers in the whole tournament. He has certainly announced himself as a truly world-class player.

I said that England had to put parts of their game that had been firing only intermittently together against Fiji, and they did go some way to doing that. Their line speed in defence was impressive, as was their defensive breakdown work. Their speed of ball in attack, which is never easy against Fiji because they have such good athletes who are so strong over the ball, was excellent too, as they frequently got their powerful carriers, such as Manu Tuilagi and Earl, on the ball. These are all very promising signs.

When South Africa lost to Ireland earlier in the tournament, they conceded 11 penalties, and that was because Ireland stressed them from a speed of ball perspective. And all of France’s three tries on Sunday were from speed of ball. That is where South Africa struggle, they just cannot reposition quickly enough and then they cannot achieve the collisions they want. If England can find that same speed of ball as against Fiji, they can stress South Africa too.

But above all this is about physicality. I have said many times that playing South Africa is the ultimate physical test, and it was always a challenge I relished. People talk about matching them physically, but my mindset was that they had to match me. That must be England’s mindset on Saturday too.

Every now and then in your rugby career, physically, you have to go to a place that you have not been to for a long time. This is that time for England now, just as it was in the semi-final against New Zealand in 2019. They have to find that emotional level that is hugely uncomfortable and, if they do, I really think they can trouble South Africa. They have the athletes to do it, and in the likes of Lawes — and Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler coming off the bench — the sort of nasty, tough edge that is also required.

I was surprised that Genge has been relegated to the bench because I really like his carrying and his snarl but can see the logic in starting with Joe Marler’s superior scrummaging against the South Africans.

With Smith not playing, England do, though, need to ensure that there is always a second ball-playing option alongside Farrell because if the carries are predictable and South Africa can team up on one-up runners then those carriers will be swallowed up and either turnovers or penalties will result.

[JM2K6]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

[OomStruisbaai]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

Ball speed and you are in the final. easy as that.

[Slick]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

[boere wors]

Weather forecast for Paris doesn't look great for Saturday.
Not sure if that will help us or hurt us.

Its the big leveller. We know how kak Libbok play in that NH conditions.

most likely no rain tommorow evening, but during the day. Pitch will be wet, gusty winds. Will be a terrible game i suspect. Would have preferred a 6-2 spilt with Jean Kleyn in for Willie to bolster our forwards and our lineout, which has been pretty crap so far tbh. Pollard to start iso Manie, as kicking for points for will be vital right from the start.

[boere wors]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

[SaintK]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Because front to back England are not as good as S Africa

[Raggs]

I love the idea that Kolbe isn't good in the air. Combined with the fact that if you get it even slightly wrong, he'll absolutely shred you.

[Slick]

After a week of internal deliberations I'm coming out for England this weekend. The caveat is that if they do win they get smashed by NZ in the final, but nonetheless you have me this weekend.

This will be my second time supporting and I thoroughly enjoyed the first, 2003 final.

Go.... errr... Red Roses?

[Tichtheid]

I love the idea that Kolbe isn't good in the air. Combined with the fact that if you get it even slightly wrong, he'll absolutely shred you.

There was a B&I Lions game where Kolbe shredded Chris Harris, one the better defenders in the NH, and then Harris bumped Kolbe onto his arse, that was 1-1, one of the few times he's ended with a draw. The SA wingers are deadly.

Unfortunately after last weened's excitement I fear these two games will lack jeopardy, I can see England giving a better account of themselves than Argentina, but I can't see any shocks coming, results wise.

[Tichtheid]

After a week of internal deliberations I'm coming out for England this weekend. The caveat is that if they do win they get smashed by NZ in the final, but nonetheless you have me this weekend.

This will be my second time supporting and I thoroughly enjoyed the first, 2003 final.

Go.... errr... Red Roses?

I'm not going to jump any more horses, after Scotland lost I moved on to France, now they've gone I'm neutral, I just want really good games.

[Raggs]

I love the idea that Kolbe isn't good in the air. Combined with the fact that if you get it even slightly wrong, he'll absolutely shred you.

There was a B&I Lions game where Kolbe shredded Chris Harris, one the better defenders in the NH, and then Harris bumped Kolbe onto his arse, that was 1-1, one of the few times he's ended with a draw. The SA wingers are deadly.

Unfortunately after last weened's excitement I fear these two games will lack jeopardy, I can see England giving a better account of themselves than Argentina, but I can't see any shocks coming, results wise.

I can potentially see the Argentina/NZ game being interesting for the first 50 minutes or so, but then the lead will extend too far.

[JM2K6]

Cliche bingo in there. Farrell doesn't get run over! (Didn't watch the last match, I assume). Kolbe is bad in the air! Steward is the best in the world at dealing with a kicking game! Tuilagi got on the ball loads against Fiji (fewest touches of the ball of any starting England back)

Etc, etc

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

[Ovals]

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

Given that we're clearly not as good as SA, anything that makes it a bit more of a lottery; is a possible benefit to us.

[Raggs]

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

Given that we're clearly not as good as SA, anything that makes it a bit more of a lottery; is a possible benefit to us.

So what does wet and windy weather cause? More knock ons. What does more knock ons lead to? More scrums... we do not want wet and windy weather!

[sockwithaticket]

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

The SA forwards are also more powerful than ours so will win out if forced into doing more carrying and pick and gos.

[PCPhil]

Not that it would make much difference overall but is Arundel injured (not even on bench) or is Borthwick just being a stubborn ass?

[C69]

I think SA will demolish England a team that were gifted a win over Fiji by the officials.
Hopefully a big win will set SA up for the NZ game.

[JM2K6]

Not that it would make much difference overall but is Arundel injured (not even on bench) or is Borthwick just being a stubborn ass?

Heavily rumoured to be sidelined due to a training bust up with Farrell

[PCPhil]

Not that it would make much difference overall but is Arundel injured (not even on bench) or is Borthwick just being a stubborn ass?

Heavily rumoured to be sidelined due to a training bust up with Farrell

Ahh, the untouchable.

[Ovals]

I think SA will demolish England a team that were gifted a win over Fiji by the officials.
Hopefully a big win will set SA up for the NZ game.

So salty.

[Margin__Walker]

Not that it would make much difference overall but is Arundel injured (not even on bench) or is Borthwick just being a stubborn ass?

Heavily rumoured to be sidelined due to a training bust up with Farrell

He may have been on the naughty step for a game, but if it was that bad they would just have sent him home. He's in the team run pictures looking happy enough.

I just don't think Borthwick fancies him in games like this. Guess we'll see him next week in the 3rd place play off.

Arundell's England adventures haven't been great for him. He's been so starved of pitch time in the last year with injury and having long periods with England holding tackle bags.

[JM2K6]

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

Given that we're clearly not as good as SA, anything that makes it a bit more of a lottery; is a possible benefit to us.

I can't remember the last time the term "lottery" was actually valid when it comes to bad weather and top level rugby. Bad weather stresses your skills and decision making more. Unless it's apocalyptic, the primary cause of anything happening isn't bad weather, it's player mistakes. Players with higher skill levels make fewer mistakes in bad weather.

It's why NZ were practically untouchable in wet conditions for so long. It's the Schumacher effect. It really shows the gulf in class.

SA are not a side that play a singular style of rugby that will be badly impacted by the weather. They are more likely to beat the shit out of us in heavy rain, because we'll make more mistakes, struggle more to deal with their kicking game and their scrum, and have even fewer routes to the tryline.

[Hal Jordan]

From what I heard on the radio, Borthwick has selected Marler and Martin because of the size of the Bok pack, as they are bigger or better in the scrum than Genge and Chessum.

I am sick to the fucking back teeth of reactive selections, based on what teams might do to us, under both Borthwick and Jones, rather than selecting players on the basis of what they might do to the opposition.

I am struggling to think of any other country that wouldn't fund a place for, say, Arundell either starting, so he can use that attacking talent to put the opposition on the back foot straight away, or off the bench to add pace and a bit of flair at the appropriate time. But no, because he's not solid enough for endless kick and chases, we select May and Daly.

It's fucking cowardly selection based on the don't risk it or we might lose attitude that permeates the national set up.

[OomStruisbaai]

I guess it's for a mainly English audience so there is a bit of cringe, but thought overall it was pretty decent

Sure, what he basically says is, if they pitch up, they have every chance to win. Weather conditions are in their favor as well, wet and windy. So why not.

Why do people think wet and windy weather will benefit England, the team with worse ball skills?

Have you ever seen Libbok playing in wet windy conditions?

[Sandstorm]

Have you ever seen Libbok playing in wet windy conditions?

Yes. At Twickenham. A month ago. He was fucking great.