Kicking off in Israel

[Line6 HXFX]

Again, Israel are illegal occupiers. This is not, and never has been a both sides situation.

Isreal does not want peace, it wants this.

They get to invade and occupy some more.

If you were being occupied and bombed, put in camps, denied elections, lived under an apartheid system...saw lots of your family killed... would you side with the occupiers and hand over the people attacking them?

Palistinains/Frenchmen/Irishmen.... would rather die.



If tories can scream move at me, for just living in a jobless enclave (and being extremely agressive, angry and abusive if I can't and pointing all sorts of shit policies at me), they can scream move at israelies.

[Calculon]

Tide is definitely turning in Europe with the scale of protests in UK especially.

Would be surprised if the general British public look faviourably upon hate filled marches by thousands of Muslims and those on the extreme left, calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. But haven't followed this very closely.

[Calculon]

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

Just bomb the shit out of it and kill all those babies in incubators and those on life support machines and pregnant women then. Oh sorry collateral damage
HAMAS are cnuts who probably use these civilians as human shields but by fuck Israel know this and still kill the civilians with not a jot of care
Even the Yanks now are calling for restraint.
When the USA do this it's much worse than is reported
Your one sided opinion is skewed and so blood thirsty.

"Probably" lol, you can't help yourself. I'm sure "Israel' cares, not least because they know that Hamas will be using the Israeli hostages as human shields, in fact Hamas have already claimed that many of their Jewish hostages were killed by the Isreali bombing. My opinion is no more skewed than yours, I'm just more honest which side I favor

[sockwithaticket]

Yes because those are all exactly equivalent

Britain has had a much longer and more ongoing relationship with Israel than any of those other nations. It is fairly normal for people to be more acutely aware of and ready to march on issues that are closer to their sphere of influence.

[Slick]

Also conveniently forgets the largest ever protest in the UK, against the Iraq war

[C69]

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

Just bomb the shit out of it and kill all those babies in incubators and those on life support machines and pregnant women then. Oh sorry collateral damage
HAMAS are cnuts who probably use these civilians as human shields but by fuck Israel know this and still kill the civilians with not a jot of care
Even the Yanks now are calling for restraint.
When the USA do this it's much worse than is reported
Your one sided opinion is skewed and so blood thirsty.

"Probably" lol, you can't help yourself. I'm sure "Israel' cares, not least because they know that Hamas will be using the Israeli hostages as human shields, in fact Hamas have already claimed that many of their Jewish hostages were killed by the Isreali bombing. My opinion is no more skewed than yours, I'm just more honest which side I favor

I favour no side and equally condemn both for killing civilians.

[Calculon]

Yes because those are all exactly equivalent

Britain has had a much longer and more ongoing relationship with Israel than any of those other nations. It is fairly normal for people to be more acutely aware of and ready to march on issues that are closer to their sphere of influence.

Wat, both Burma and Aden were British colonies for well over a century and far more connected to Britain than Mandatory Palestine ever was. As for the Irak war it was a war that Britain was directly involved with, with British soldiers killed, and more so the reasons for entering the war were patently false. Anyway, from the footage I've seen most of the protesters are British Muslims with no obvious connections to Palistinians except for their religion. The same religion they share with the other victims in that meme. The reason many people think these marches are antisemitic in nature is, well, antisemitic posters being held up, from the river to the sea genocide calls, obvious support for Hamas, and British Jews being harrased by protesters.

[sockwithaticket]

Yes because those are all exactly equivalent

Britain has had a much longer and more ongoing relationship with Israel than any of those other nations. It is fairly normal for people to be more acutely aware of and ready to march on issues that are closer to their sphere of influence.

Wat, both Burma and Aden were British colonies for well over a century and far more connected to Britain than Mandatory Palestine ever was. As for the Irak war it was a war that Britain was directly involved with, with British soldiers killed, and more so the reasons for entering the war were patently false. Anyway, from the footage I've seen most of the protesters are British Muslims with no obvious connections to Palistinians except for their religion. The same religion they share with the other victims in that meme. The reason many people think these marches are antisemitic in nature is, well, antisemitic posters being held up, from the river to the sea genocide calls, obvious support for Hamas, and British Jews being harrased by protesters.

And our involvement in them and relationship with them since they ceased to be colonies is basically non-existent compared to Israel/Palestine.

I haven't been slavishly watching footage for its ethnic make up, but as a lefty I know plenty of white, non-Muslim Brits happy to lend their voice to Palestine's cause.

Muslim solidarity in the face of backlash to terrorist events in Europe has certainly been a concerning trend in recent years, but that's a whole different discussion.

There's no lack

[robmatic]

Yes because those are all exactly equivalent

Britain has had a much longer and more ongoing relationship with Israel than any of those other nations. It is fairly normal for people to be more acutely aware of and ready to march on issues that are closer to their sphere of influence.

Eh, Yemen is due to the actions of Saudi Arabia, our key ally in the Gulf and the country who we helped establish before the modern state of Israel existed. Why do they get a pass?

[petej]

Tide is definitely turning in Europe with the scale of protests in UK especially.

Would be surprised if the general British public look faviourably upon hate filled marches by thousands of Muslims and those on the extreme left, calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. But haven't followed this very closely.

I am increasingly perturbed by the airbrushing of Islam and the PR efforts of disgusting undemocratic Islamic regimes in Britain. We've seen it with Russians and the stuff we let them get away with. I expect there has been sustained astroturfing by said authoritarian regimes.

You could add the uighur muslims in China as well to that cartoon.

[sockwithaticket]

Yes because those are all exactly equivalent

Britain has had a much longer and more ongoing relationship with Israel than any of those other nations. It is fairly normal for people to be more acutely aware of and ready to march on issues that are closer to their sphere of influence.

Eh, Yemen is due to the actions of Saudi Arabia, our key ally in the Gulf and the country who we helped establish before the modern state of Israel existed. Why do they get a pass?

Maybe I'm not reading or watching the right stuff, but I feel like our relationship with Saudi Arabia gets a lot less coverage in domestic media (by design considering a strong part of it selling them arms while ignoring human rights abuses) and thus it's not as imminent in the collective consciousness as part of Britain's sphere of influence.

[shaggy]

Tide is definitely turning in Europe with the scale of protests in UK especially.

Would be surprised if the general British public look faviourably upon hate filled marches by thousands of Muslims and those on the extreme left, calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. But haven't followed this very closely.

I am increasingly perturbed by the airbrushing of Islam and the PR efforts of disgusting undemocratic Islamic regimes in Britain. We've seen it with Russians and the stuff we let them get away with. I expect there has been sustained astroturfing by said authoritarian regimes.

You could add the uighur muslims in China as well to that cartoon.

Are you suggesting that support for Palestinian’s is down to undue Muslim influence by internal and external forces in Britain?

[Raggs]

HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

Link to the UN stating Israel has been using white phosphorus? Asked before and still can't find and links myself.

[TB63]

Consistent reporting.

[David in Gwent]

Consistent reporting.

I'm not sure what pro-Hamas page your following to get your "gotchas" but the above is fake.

[petej]

Consistent reporting.

I'm not sure what pro-Hamas page your following to get your "gotchas" but the above is fake.

Not sure how the IDF finding this could be considered pro-Hamas.

[David in Gwent]

[petej]

Would be surprised if the general British public look faviourably upon hate filled marches by thousands of Muslims and those on the extreme left, calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. But haven't followed this very closely.

I am increasingly perturbed by the airbrushing of Islam and the PR efforts of disgusting undemocratic Islamic regimes in Britain. We've seen it with Russians and the stuff we let them get away with. I expect there has been sustained astroturfing by said authoritarian regimes.

You could add the uighur muslims in China as well to that cartoon.

Are you suggesting that support for Palestinian’s is down to undue Muslim influence by internal and external forces in Britain?

Not purely but would be surprised if those regimes like Qatar and Saudi aren't supporting probably in a deniable way protests against Israel.

[Calculon]

Consistent reporting.

It’s definitely some kind of youth centre. Which would fit right in with Hamas tactics, fire rockets at Israeli civilians from a place where children hang out. Not sure why the second twitter site, OSINTdefender, thinks it's a mosque, - doesn’t look as good a source as OSINTtechnical.

Mind you, not nearly as bad a mistake as the BBC; “definitely, no doubt about it, must be not one but several Israeli bombs destroying this hospital causing 500 innocent woman and children to die”, when in fact it was a Hamas rocket that burned out a few cars in the car park of the hospital.

[Raggs]

Consistent reporting.

Can both not be true? I realise it's a repeated photo, but it may simply be they've not released photos of every rocket launcher they've found, so the account is using a recent photo of a rocket battery? They have over photos of them just poking out the ground (clearing a different set of launchers).

I don't get why the average Joe Bloggs expects to see every single reasoning behind every bit of every operation, photos of every location and infrastructure etc. We saw in Ukraine how dangerous it is to release information that can be geolocated.

[David in Gwent]

Consistent reporting.

It’s definitely some kind of youth centre. Which would fit right in with Hamas tactics, fire rockets at Israeli civilians from a place where children hang out. Not sure why the second twitter site, OSINTdefender, says mosque, - doesn’t look as good a source as OSINTtechnical.

Mind you, not nearly as bad a mistake as the BBC; “definitely, no doubt about it, must be not one but several Israeli bombs destroying this hospital causing 500 innocent woman and children to die”, when in fact it was a Hamas rocket that burned out a few cars in the car park of the hospital.

the look on this c**s face:

[Raggs]

Charming.



Civilians who didn't heed the evacuation calls before, are now given instructions and fixed hours during which a safe route will be open (think each day, I know it's been going on for at least a couple of days now).

[Plim]

The meme Calculon posted about the absence of protest about Muslim deaths caused by actors other than Israel says it all really.

In fact the absence of protest about horrendous numbers of killings, abductions and torture of any peoples tells us about the base motives of the ‘pro-Palestinian’ protesters.

Why not Mali? Nigeria? Myanmar? China? Yemen? Etc.

Why always Israel, the one, single Jewish state?

The present protests aren’t about support for Palestinians at all. They’re just nasty, old fashioned Jew hate.

(Demonstrations against war in Iraq was protest against US and UK policy. It had nothing to do with the right of a country to defend itself.)

[David in Gwent]

I hope the people of London will enjoy those 100,000 "protesters" getting more emboldened every week with less and less restrictions placed on them by an unwilling and afraid Met Police.

I hope you'll enjoy what's coming down the line.

[Tichtheid]

I remember protests against proposed UK airstrikes in Syria, the civil war there has multiple combatants, over a dozen, from abroad and at home, including Russia, Iran, their own government forces, plus various Islamist factions.

The Yemeni Civil War is, according to Wikipedia, part of the proxy war fought between Iran and Saudi Arabia, there are two main local belligerents plus extremist International organisations. Of the terrible figure for deaths in that country over half are said to be from starvation and illness, rather than military attacks, not that the method would matter to the ones dying I suppose.

There were protests outside Myanmar's embassy in London. Again there are multiple combatants in the civil unrest in that country.

I'd suggest that the main thing these three conflicts have in common in terms of the UK is the next to zero reporting of it, in stark contrast to the 24 hour coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict at the moment.

If the numbers of dead in Palestine match the figures in the other countries, will that be enough?

How many dead is enough?

[David in Gwent]

I remember protests against proposed UK airstrikes in Syria, the civil war there has multiple combatants, over a dozen, from abroad and at home, including Russia, Iran, their own government forces, plus various Islamist factions.

The Yemeni Civil War is, according to Wikipedia, part of the proxy war fought between Iran and Saudi Arabia, there are two main local belligerents plus extremist International organisations. Of the terrible figure for deaths in that country over half are said to be from starvation and illness, rather than military attacks, not that the method would matter to the ones dying I suppose.

There were protests outside Myanmar's embassy in London. Again there are multiple combatants in the civil unrest in that country.

I'd suggest that the main thing these three conflicts have in common in terms of the UK is the next to zero reporting of it, in stark contrast to the 24 hour coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict at the moment.

If the numbers of dead in Palestine match the figures in the other countries, will that be enough?

How many dead is enough?

For some, I would suggest about 13 million Jews.

[Muttonbird]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

[Uncle fester]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

[Tichtheid]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

The picture at the head of that article makes you think - the child carrying the white flag whilst the mother has a sibling in her arms, it looks like one of the children's backpack is over her shoulder. It has Captain America on it.

[Raggs]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

[Blackmac]

Police investigate 'attack' on poppy seller at pro-Palestinian demo in Edinburgh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-67344032

Apparently the majority involved in this protest were students from Edinburgh University. My mates daughter is in her first year there and says life is almost intolerable because of it. Kids getting press ganged by threats and intimidation to sign up to financial support for Palestine, antisemitism is off the scale and Hamas flags and t-shirts being openly displayed. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is having their life made a misery. She pointed this out to one of her tutors and his advice was stay away from campus until it subsides.

[Calculon]

Police investigate 'attack' on poppy seller at pro-Palestinian demo in Edinburgh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-67344032

Apparently the majority involved in this protest were students from Edinburgh University. My mates daughter is in her first year there and says life is almost intolerable because of it. Kids getting press ganged by threats and intimidation to sign up to financial support for Palestine, antisemitism is off the scale and Hamas flags and t-shirts being openly displayed. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is having their life made a misery. She pointed this out to one of her tutors and his advice was stay away from campus until it subsides.

That must be fun if you're a Jewish, or god forbid, an Isreali student there

[Guy Smiley]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

errrr...

not actually bombing the shit of those civilians in the first place might have been the decent thing to do.

[Enzedder]

Guys, re the reports about posts in this thread.

If we can stay civil and debate the two sides to an arguments, the moderators will keep away. It's not up to us to "take sides", no matter what our personal views are.

So far, so good. Well done for that.

[robmatic]

Police investigate 'attack' on poppy seller at pro-Palestinian demo in Edinburgh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-67344032

Apparently the majority involved in this protest were students from Edinburgh University. My mates daughter is in her first year there and says life is almost intolerable because of it. Kids getting press ganged by threats and intimidation to sign up to financial support for Palestine, antisemitism is off the scale and Hamas flags and t-shirts being openly displayed. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is having their life made a misery. She pointed this out to one of her tutors and his advice was stay away from campus until it subsides.

Traditionally, there are a lot of entitled bellends at Edinburgh Uni so this is unsurprising. Recently, they've had a bunch of Assad apologists on the academic staff as well so there is probably some additonal tolerance for the nutty left to make things worse.

[Raggs]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

errrr...

not actually bombing the shit of those civilians in the first place might have been the decent thing to do.

So just leave Hamas where they are, and let the billionaire terrorist organisation government with an army of tens of thousands, access to rocketry and weapons, just be. And hope they decide to stop shooting rockets at hospitals and civilians, and don't invade again, raping, torturing and burning babies. Sure, sounds reasonable.

[Guy Smiley]

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

errrr...

not actually bombing the shit of those civilians in the first place might have been the decent thing to do.

So just leave Hamas where they are, and let the billionaire terrorist organisation government with an army of tens of thousands, access to rocketry and weapons, just be. And hope they decide to stop shooting rockets at hospitals and civilians, and don't invade again, raping, torturing and burning babies. Sure, sounds reasonable.

This is an example of how nearly every conversation / argument on this topic pans out. You have taken a leap to somewhere just past the sweep of the pendulum to make your point... which to me appears to be justifying the bombing and indiscriminate killing of thousands of civilians. Somehow, we should all accept the incredible humanity of the Israeli forces in providing a humanitarian corridor for the people they've been bombing the shit out of... and you immediately scream about Hamas.

Yes, Hamas are a very real problem. One of the Israeli's own making too, if the accounts of Netanyahu's faction fostering their rise to power in order to do away with the Palestine Authority.

The reality of Hamas doesn't excuse the war crimes associated with the onslaught we are seeing on Gaza though, Raggs. Twice now we see reports of refugee camps being bombed. The UN suggests the death toll of children alone now is into the thousands.

The other day I went looking for a count of fatalities before deciding not to use it, the argument was pointless. What I found though, was interesting... discounting this current campaign which can't yet be verified, about 6 1/2 thousand Palestinians have been killed within Israel and the Occupied Territories, since 2008. The Israelis have lost 309 in that time. Even the label 'Occupied Territories' should tell us something here...

Israel is operating outside the Law. Hamas are cunce, for sure... but there is no innocent side here. An army as well trained and equipped as Israel maintains, aided by the US has no need to bomb a civilian area. As others have said, a ground campaign would be an alternative. Costly, time consuming... but also handily avoiding the war crime of mass murdering civilians.

[C69]

Just saw the footage of an Israeli settler in the West Bank shooting a guy whilst an IDF solder watches on.
Which is nice.

Both sides are utter cnuts.

Looks like the West Bank is going to be next

[Raggs]

errrr...

not actually bombing the shit of those civilians in the first place might have been the decent thing to do.

So just leave Hamas where they are, and let the billionaire terrorist organisation government with an army of tens of thousands, access to rocketry and weapons, just be. And hope they decide to stop shooting rockets at hospitals and civilians, and don't invade again, raping, torturing and burning babies. Sure, sounds reasonable.

This is an example of how nearly every conversation / argument on this topic pans out. You have taken a leap to somewhere just past the sweep of the pendulum to make your point... which to me appears to be justifying the bombing and indiscriminate killing of thousands of civilians. Somehow, we should all accept the incredible humanity of the Israeli forces in providing a humanitarian corridor for the people they've been bombing the shit out of... and you immediately scream about Hamas.

Yes, Hamas are a very real problem. One of the Israeli's own making too, if the accounts of Netanyahu's faction fostering their rise to power in order to do away with the Palestine Authority.

The reality of Hamas doesn't excuse the war crimes associated with the onslaught we are seeing on Gaza though, Raggs. Twice now we see reports of refugee camps being bombed. The UN suggests the death toll of children alone now is into the thousands.

The other day I went looking for a count of fatalities before deciding not to use it, the argument was pointless. What I found though, was interesting... discounting this current campaign which can't yet be verified, about 6 1/2 thousand Palestinians have been killed within Israel and the Occupied Territories, since 2008. The Israelis have lost 309 in that time. Even the label 'Occupied Territories' should tell us something here...

Israel is operating outside the Law. Hamas are cunce, for sure... but there is no innocent side here. An army as well trained and equipped as Israel maintains, aided by the US has no need to bomb a civilian area. As others have said, a ground campaign would be an alternative. Costly, time consuming... but also handily avoiding the war crime of mass murdering civilians.

Outside which law, and by what evidence? Maybe they have but it needs a lot more than what we've seen to prove that.

Innocents have died, how many dead are Hamas? How many of the women are Hamas? How many of the under 18s are Hamas?

Just because Israel defends it's citizens and works towards protecting them, whereas Hamas does the opposite, Israel should not do anything?

How do you propose that the world rids itself of Hamas?

Just saw the footage of an Israeli settler in the West Bank shooting a guy whilst an IDF solder watches on.
Which is nice.

Both sides are utter cnuts.

Got that link to the UN proving Israel used white phosphorus yet? I keep asking, you keep posting, but it never comes.

[C69]

So just leave Hamas where they are, and let the billionaire terrorist organisation government with an army of tens of thousands, access to rocketry and weapons, just be. And hope they decide to stop shooting rockets at hospitals and civilians, and don't invade again, raping, torturing and burning babies. Sure, sounds reasonable.

This is an example of how nearly every conversation / argument on this topic pans out. You have taken a leap to somewhere just past the sweep of the pendulum to make your point... which to me appears to be justifying the bombing and indiscriminate killing of thousands of civilians. Somehow, we should all accept the incredible humanity of the Israeli forces in providing a humanitarian corridor for the people they've been bombing the shit out of... and you immediately scream about Hamas.

Yes, Hamas are a very real problem. One of the Israeli's own making too, if the accounts of Netanyahu's faction fostering their rise to power in order to do away with the Palestine Authority.

The reality of Hamas doesn't excuse the war crimes associated with the onslaught we are seeing on Gaza though, Raggs. Twice now we see reports of refugee camps being bombed. The UN suggests the death toll of children alone now is into the thousands.

The other day I went looking for a count of fatalities before deciding not to use it, the argument was pointless. What I found though, was interesting... discounting this current campaign which can't yet be verified, about 6 1/2 thousand Palestinians have been killed within Israel and the Occupied Territories, since 2008. The Israelis have lost 309 in that time. Even the label 'Occupied Territories' should tell us something here...

Israel is operating outside the Law. Hamas are cunce, for sure... but there is no innocent side here. An army as well trained and equipped as Israel maintains, aided by the US has no need to bomb a civilian area. As others have said, a ground campaign would be an alternative. Costly, time consuming... but also handily avoiding the war crime of mass murdering civilians.

Outside which law, and by what evidence? Maybe they have but it needs a lot more than what we've seen to prove that.

Innocents have died, how many dead are Hamas? How many of the women are Hamas? How many of the under 18s are Hamas?

Just because Israel defends it's citizens and works towards protecting them, whereas Hamas does the opposite, Israel should not do anything?

How do you propose that the world rids itself of Hamas?

Just saw the footage of an Israeli settler in the West Bank shooting a guy whilst an IDF solder watches on.
Which is nice.

Both sides are utter cnuts.

Got that link to the UN proving Israel used white phosphorus yet? I keep asking, you keep posting, but it never comes.

I don't actually keep a log of all the news reports I watch I am afraid. It was on either the Beeb or ITV.
Or perhaps Sky.