Kicking off in Israel

[Marylandolorian]

I was curious about it, not sure if it’s what you are talking about.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -escalate/

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live ... 33a92a6d6f

[Raggs]

I don't actually keep a log of all the news reports I watch I am afraid. It was on either the Beeb or ITV.
Or perhaps Sky.

Narrowing it down nicely then. And absolutely no written reports that I can see. Any chance you misheard/misunderstood? I would have thought the UN confirming the evidence of white phosphorus used in likely war crime situations, would have been all over the news.

[C69]

I don't actually keep a log of all the news reports I watch I am afraid. It was on either the Beeb or ITV.
Or perhaps Sky.

Narrowing it down nicely then. And absolutely no written reports that I can see. Any chance you misheard/misunderstood? I would have thought the UN confirming the evidence of white phosphorus used in likely war crime situations, would have been all over the news.

There has been a lot of misinformation and retractions and I too can only find info from Amnesty etc and reports that the UN are looking into the use of the chemical

[Muttonbird]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

Israel, decent?

[Muttonbird]

Guys, re the reports about posts in this thread.

If we can stay civil and debate the two sides to an arguments, the moderators will keep away. It's not up to us to "take sides", no matter what our personal views are.

So far, so good. Well done for that.

Why am I not surprised.

[Plim]

Police investigate 'attack' on poppy seller at pro-Palestinian demo in Edinburgh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-67344032

Apparently the majority involved in this protest were students from Edinburgh University. My mates daughter is in her first year there and says life is almost intolerable because of it. Kids getting press ganged by threats and intimidation to sign up to financial support for Palestine, antisemitism is off the scale and Hamas flags and t-shirts being openly displayed. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is having their life made a misery. She pointed this out to one of her tutors and his advice was stay away from campus until it subsides.

I’m sorry to hear that, but I can’t say I’m surprised. I strongly suspect that Edinburgh is not an outlier for this sort of bullying and intimidation.

It must be bloody awful to be a Jewish student, or a student who just believes in Israel’s right to defend itself or doesn’t want to take sides, at the LSE, or Goldsmiths or, inevitably, SOAS. Any uni really.

The whole campaign against Israel, whether it’s marches, speeches, meetings, boycotts or whatever, is very, very ugly.

[David in Gwent]

Ethnic cleansing in action, in real time. Decent Israelis should be appalled:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-ea ... -ever-seen

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

Israel, decent?

All those deaths are the fault of Hamas and it's supporters.

[Sandstorm]

I wonder how many of those 136 kids a day have parents who are Hamas soldiers? Did they send their own families South last month?

[Raggs]

I wonder how many of those 136 kids a day have parents who are Hamas soldiers? Did they send their own families South last month?

Considering anyone under eighteen is a child, and Hamas use child soldiers, how many are Hamas themselves?

How fudged are the numbers?

That's not to say innocents aren't being killed.

[Sandstorm]

I wonder how many of those 136 kids a day have parents who are Hamas soldiers? Did they send their own families South last month?

Considering anyone under eighteen is a child, and Hamas use child soldiers, how many are Hamas themselves?

How fudged are the numbers?

That's not to say innocents aren't being killed.

Indeed

[Line6 HXFX]

Funny how everything I predicted, the attacking of hospitals, aid convoys and ambulances..the bombing of refugee camps and mountains of dead children and the killing of journalists , three weeks ago has all come true.





If a mixed UN peacekeeping force and Isreali troops occupy the area, for good ole Northern Irish "Security reasons"...as the Iraelies apparently want..as defending illegal settlements is a United Nations Job now apparently, ...even though they are against all UN resolutions..the brutal reality of this illegal occupation will sicken the entire world.

Can't see isreal allowing it..it is like their phony support of a two state solution.

[Tichtheid]

David Baddeil's documentary from his own book Jews Don't Count was on Channel 4 last night. I'd recommend it if you get the chance to see it. I watched again having seen it when it first aired a good few months ago, before the atrocities on October the 7th.
I agree with all the points made in the film, I agree that Antisemitism exists on the Left as well as on the Right in the UK, I agree that this is something that is almost seen as being acceptable because "they are white" for the most part and so "it's not racism". Of course he faced some backlash because he uses the term "White privilege", that was a step too far for some.

I wholeheartedly agree with him that Jewish people should not have to answer for Israel, and this is something he went into at length because whenever he makes a statement on social media he gets "what about Israel?" hurled back at him by the bucketload. He says that demanding that Jewish people have an opinion on Israel is a form of Antisemitism, I'm not qualified to say either way, but I'm leaning towards his argument on this.

What he didn't address was that if Jewish people can disassociate themselves with Israel - he repeatedly said that he, as an atheist of Jewish descent, feels no affinity for or link with Israel, then I'd argue that criticism of the actions of the government in that country is not necessarily Antisemitic. Miriam Margolyes was one of the people interviewed and she was highly critical of Israel, in fact she said that Jewish people should speak up against the regime, but I think she eventually came around to Baddeil's position that it shouldn't be compulsory.

As an aside, and perhaps this should be in another thread, but anyway, there was an interview with Jason Lee in which Baddiel finally apologised in person for portraying Lee in blackface as a butt for jokes in a comedy programme he and Frank Skinner had done. I saw that Baddeil had also faced criticism for his use of the word "Pikey" around the same time as that Jason Lee portrayal was being made.
In that film last night the point was made about how Jewish people can "Pass" as white people (David Schwimmer said that he's never felt white) - Baddeil's New York-based niece says that she would feel happier or more at ease about her Jewish father being pulled over by the cops than her black mother.

Anyway this term "pass" was used several times in the film in the context of Jewish people being able to pass as white and so avoiding bigotry for the most part (it was said that Winonna Horowitz would not have become the star that Winonna Ryder did).
I've heard that term "pass" before, this is where "Pikey" comes in. Part of my wife's heritage is Gypsy/Romany, members of that community who have settled and integrated have said that they can "pass", ie not be singled out for the prejudice faced by Travellers and Gypsies/Roma - I'd say that is another group where bigotry is seen as being acceptable.

[Sandstorm]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

[Line6 HXFX]

Funny that Colin Jackson said he never faced racist abuse for being black, when traveling to England....only for being welsh.


All of these things are interesting, as an example of something..

During the whole Cobyn anti semitic thing, you had Jews phoning in O'brien, deeply upset by Corbyn, when asked to provide reasons why they were upset, all couldn't and most said it was because of the perception of anti semitism.

Perception?

The only fucking chance we had, for the UK to steer away from right wing destructive policies, that litterally killed and was killing hundreds of thousands of people, was being wrecked because of a perception.

Attention seeking shithousery.

"Yeah fuck the poor sick and unemployed..let's destroy the Labour Party, their only hope...because not everyone loves us".
I have just lost all patience since then tbh.

Assholes.

[Sandstorm]

During the whole Cobyn anti semitic thing, you had Jews phoning in O'brien, deeply upset by Corbyn, when asked to provide reasons why they were upset, all couldn't and most said it was because of the perception of anti semitism.

Perception?

I think it's valid. If you're a Jew in London and have family in Israel in 2023, Hamas attacks and Corbyn is PM....you're going to be worried that UK won't stand behind Israel like the Tory UK Govt is today.

What would Trump have done if he was still in the White House?

[Tichtheid]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

I don't think that is quite the meaning intended. If there was a person of black heritage that was so light-skinned that they are taken for being white, that would more akin to the meaning in the film.

In fact now that I look for it there is, of course, a wiki page for this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity)

[Calculon]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

As an Afrikaner that lived in the UK for many years that’s not my experience at all. The one and only time someone assumed I must be racist was when a guy in his 40s went on about how awful the Blacks were and though I would agree with him cos I was a white South African. I’m pretty certain he would have been the same with me even if I was a Soutie

[Sandstorm]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

As an Afrikaner that lived in the UK for many years that’s not my experience at all. The one and only time someone assumed I must be racist was when a guy in his 40s went on about how awful the Blacks were and though I would agree with him cos I was a white South African. I’m pretty certain he would have been the same with me even if I was a Soutie

Shows how different everyone's experience is each time. I always try to be a "nice Saffer" rather than a "non-racist Saffer" & people tend to respond positively to that. :)

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Funny that Colin Jackson said he never faced racist abuse for being black, when traveling to England....only for being welsh.


All of these things are interesting, as an example of something..

During the whole Cobyn anti semitic thing, you had Jews phoning in O'brien, deeply upset by Corbyn, when asked to provide reasons why they were upset, all couldn't and most said it was because of the perception of anti semitism.

Perception?

The only fucking chance we had, for the UK to steer away from right wing destructive policies, that litterally killed and was killing hundreds of thousands of people, was being wrecked because of a perception.

Attention seeking shithousery.

"Yeah fuck the poor sick and unemployed..let's destroy the Labour Party, their only hope...because not everyone loves us".
I have just lost all patience since then tbh.

Assholes.

Far from just perception of racism on the part of Corbyn

Indeed given not just the fears Boris was remarkably unsuited for the role of PM but the practical demonstration he was a lying ,feckless, corrupt piece of shit if I was offered a choice tomorrow of Boris or Jeremy I'd still pick Boris. It gets harder if say the question becomes Corbyn Vs Mogg, or Corbyn Vs Cruella, at that point I don't know I'd have any idea which side of the fence to jump down on. But that's down to how dangerous I'd consider Corbyn to be on the economy, on national security, that he's also a really unpleasant piece of shit lags in far behind

[Calculon]

Jesus fucking christ, the state of them

[Uncle fester]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

As an Afrikaner that lived in the UK for many years that’s not my experience at all. The one and only time someone assumed I must be racist was when a guy in his 40s went on about how awful the Blacks were and though I would agree with him cos I was a white South African. I’m pretty certain he would have been the same with me even if I was a Soutie

Shows how different everyone's experience is each time. I always try to be a "nice Saffer" rather than a "non-racist Saffer" & people tend to respond positively to that. :)

A nice Saffer?

[Sandstorm]

A nice Saffer?

It does happen......

[Raggs]

The Corbyn that didn't think the blatantly anti Semitic mural was anti-Semitic? The Corbyn that posted that Israel bombed the hospital and killed 500 Palestinians, and didn't remove it despite it becoming very obvious that this was simply not true?

The Corbyn that was at anti-Semitic rally but wasn't at at it, just there....

The one that wrote a foreword for an antisemitic book, calling it brilliant?

Must be the unluckiest guy alive

[Calculon]

In my experience White, English-speaking Saffers tend to get viewed (in the UK anyway) as less racist than White Afrikaners. That might also be classed as a pass?

As an Afrikaner that lived in the UK for many years that’s not my experience at all. The one and only time someone assumed I must be racist was when a guy in his 40s went on about how awful the Blacks were and though I would agree with him cos I was a white South African. I’m pretty certain he would have been the same with me even if I was a Soutie

Shows how different everyone's experience is each time. I always try to be a "nice Saffer" rather than a "non-racist Saffer" & people tend to respond positively to that. :)

Yeah, I never tried to be anything. The vast majority of people in England I met judged me after they got to know me rather than on me having a slightly different accent or unpronounceable name.

[Tichtheid]

Jesus fucking christ, the state of them

To be fair, if we want to be fair, the question takes them off guard, it took me off guard. That is the first time I've heard the events on October the 7th being referred to as an invasion of Israel by Hamas. I just googled "Hamas invasion of Israel" and it only comes up as "attack". The only reference to invasion on the results is by Russia and one further down which refers to an invasion of Gazza by Israel.

If the question had been, "What do you think of the Hamas attacks on the people at the music festival and others on October the 7th?" I think there may have been more in reply, maybe not.

[Raggs]

Can't say I'm surprise at the UN news centre for posting this, but it's a bit galling to see the 240 hostages not listed anywhere, especially as there's an explicit missing column in Gaza.

[David in Gwent]

[C69]

Good job it's Civilians making such crass and dangerous statements

The Israeli Heritage minister recently suggested dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza was a credible option as there were non noncombatants in Gaza. Oh and he wanted to stop all medical aid.
He was semi suspended and allowed to participate in a government vote.
This minister represents ultra orthodoxy in Israel
Otzma Yehudit and Hamas seem well suited.

[Brazil]

Can't say I'm surprise at the UN news centre for posting this, but it's a bit galling to see the 240 hostages not listed anywhere, especially as there's an explicit missing column in Gaza.

Well, presumably the ones that have become casualties are listed in the Israeli casualty figures.

[David in Gwent]

Good job it's Civilians making such crass and dangerous statements

The Ex Israeli Heritage minister recently suggested dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza was a credible option as there were non noncombatants in Gaza. Oh and he wanted to stop all medical aid.
He was semi suspended and allowed to participate in a government vote.
This minister represents ultra orthodoxy in Israel
Otzma Yehudit and Hamas seem well suited.

The stupid idiot wouldn't have said that if the attempted genocide on the 7th October hadn't of happened.

I did smile when he was asked about the fate of the Gazan population

He said

"They can go to Ireland"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right ... -meetings/

[Calculon]

Good job it's Civilians making such crass and dangerous statements

The Israeli Heritage minister recently suggested dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza was a credible option as there were non noncombatants in Gaza. Oh and he wanted to stop all medical aid.
He was semi suspended and allowed to participate in a government vote.
This minister represents ultra orthodoxy in Israel
Otzma Yehudit and Hamas seem well suited.

Yip, both the ultra-orthodox and Hamas are shitkicking cunts. And though the percentage of cunts might be roughly equal on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides, there’s definitely more shitkickers amongst the Gazans

[Raggs]

Well, presumably the ones that have become casualties are listed in the Israeli casualty figures.

But there's no evidence of that, just a claim from their captors that a number have been killed. Even then it's not mentioned. It's not reasonable to not include them in the graphic right?

EDIT - Ultra orthodox are bloody dangerous. The vast majority of Israeli's would love for them to not be around, much like how extremists are viewed by most countries.

[Sandstorm]

Good job it's Civilians making such crass and dangerous statements

The Israeli Heritage minister recently suggested dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza was a credible option as there were non noncombatants in Gaza. Oh and he wanted to stop all medical aid.
He was semi suspended and allowed to participate in a government vote.
This minister represents ultra orthodoxy in Israel
Otzma Yehudit and Hamas seem well suited.

I guess there's nothing in the Torah about nuclear fallout.......

[Brazil]

Well, presumably the ones that have become casualties are listed in the Israeli casualty figures.

But there's no evidence of that, just a claim from their captors that a number have been killed. Even then it's not mentioned. It's not reasonable to not include them in the graphic right?

EDIT - Ultra orthodox are bloody dangerous. The vast majority of Israeli's would love for them to not be around, much like how extremists are viewed by most countries.

They're citing official Israeli sources so if the hostages aren't being included it's an Israeli decision not to count them. Presumably this is working on a clear definition of what a casualty is, which wouldn't include a hostage (unless they'd been killed or injured).

[Raggs]

Well, presumably the ones that have become casualties are listed in the Israeli casualty figures.

But there's no evidence of that, just a claim from their captors that a number have been killed. Even then it's not mentioned. It's not reasonable to not include them in the graphic right?

EDIT - Ultra orthodox are bloody dangerous. The vast majority of Israeli's would love for them to not be around, much like how extremists are viewed by most countries.

They're citing official Israeli sources so if the hostages aren't being included it's an Israeli decision not to count them. Presumably this is working on a clear definition of what a casualty is, which wouldn't include a hostage (unless they'd been killed or injured).

And a clear definition of what a "missing" is?

EDIT - Official sources just means they took numbers as reported, not necessarily that they called someone and said what do you want written on this graphic we're making.

[Brazil]

But there's no evidence of that, just a claim from their captors that a number have been killed. Even then it's not mentioned. It's not reasonable to not include them in the graphic right?

EDIT - Ultra orthodox are bloody dangerous. The vast majority of Israeli's would love for them to not be around, much like how extremists are viewed by most countries.

They're citing official Israeli sources so if the hostages aren't being included it's an Israeli decision not to count them. Presumably this is working on a clear definition of what a casualty is, which wouldn't include a hostage (unless they'd been killed or injured).

And a clear definition of what a "missing" is?

Actually, I see your point now, apologies.

[Raggs]

They're citing official Israeli sources so if the hostages aren't being included it's an Israeli decision not to count them. Presumably this is working on a clear definition of what a casualty is, which wouldn't include a hostage (unless they'd been killed or injured).

And a clear definition of what a "missing" is?

Actually, I see your point now, apologies.

Wish there was a thumbs up button.

[average joe]

[Hugo]

David Baddeil's documentary from his own book Jews Don't Count was on Channel 4 last night. I'd recommend it if you get the chance to see it. I watched again having seen it when it first aired a good few months ago, before the atrocities on October the 7th.
I agree with all the points made in the film, I agree that Antisemitism exists on the Left as well as on the Right in the UK, I agree that this is something that is almost seen as being acceptable because "they are white" for the most part and so "it's not racism". Of course he faced some backlash because he uses the term "White privilege", that was a step too far for some.

I wholeheartedly agree with him that Jewish people should not have to answer for Israel, and this is something he went into at length because whenever he makes a statement on social media he gets "what about Israel?" hurled back at him by the bucketload. He says that demanding that Jewish people have an opinion on Israel is a form of Antisemitism, I'm not qualified to say either way, but I'm leaning towards his argument on this.

What he didn't address was that if Jewish people can disassociate themselves with Israel - he repeatedly said that he, as an atheist of Jewish descent, feels no affinity for or link with Israel, then I'd argue that criticism of the actions of the government in that country is not necessarily Antisemitic. Miriam Margolyes was one of the people interviewed and she was highly critical of Israel, in fact she said that Jewish people should speak up against the regime, but I think she eventually came around to Baddeil's position that it shouldn't be compulsory.

As an aside, and perhaps this should be in another thread, but anyway, there was an interview with Jason Lee in which Baddiel finally apologised in person for portraying Lee in blackface as a butt for jokes in a comedy programme he and Frank Skinner had done. I saw that Baddeil had also faced criticism for his use of the word "Pikey" around the same time as that Jason Lee portrayal was being made.
In that film last night the point was made about how Jewish people can "Pass" as white people (David Schwimmer said that he's never felt white) - Baddeil's New York-based niece says that she would feel happier or more at ease about her Jewish father being pulled over by the cops than her black mother.

Anyway this term "pass" was used several times in the film in the context of Jewish people being able to pass as white and so avoiding bigotry for the most part (it was said that Winonna Horowitz would not have become the star that Winonna Ryder did).
I've heard that term "pass" before, this is where "Pikey" comes in. Part of my wife's heritage is Gypsy/Romany, members of that community who have settled and integrated have said that they can "pass", ie not be singled out for the prejudice faced by Travellers and Gypsies/Roma - I'd say that is another group where bigotry is seen as being acceptable.

Interesting points raised.

Id say there is a general trend of people being held to account for things done by those in their community - Muslims are supposed to condemn terrorist attacks, whites are supposed to feel guilt over the transatlantic slave trade and such. Pulling Jews up for Israels actions would fall into this tendency in my opinion. Its a bit daft to try and pin this stuff on individual people going about their business but as long as I have been aware its always been a thing.

[Slick]

As an Afrikaner that lived in the UK for many years that’s not my experience at all. The one and only time someone assumed I must be racist was when a guy in his 40s went on about how awful the Blacks were and though I would agree with him cos I was a white South African. I’m pretty certain he would have been the same with me even if I was a Soutie

Shows how different everyone's experience is each time. I always try to be a "nice Saffer" rather than a "non-racist Saffer" & people tend to respond positively to that. :)

Yeah, I never tried to be anything. The vast majority of people in England I met judged me after they got to know me rather than on me having a slightly different accent or unpronounceable name.

Hard luck