The Football (Soccer) Thread

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eldanielfire
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:36 am The Barcelona wages problem includes Messi who has wages that far exceed anyone else's. He's paid more now than he's ever been, but is some way off his best as a player. That has to be part of the problem.

No-one is trying to make out that there's a single problem at Barcelona. But pretending that Messi's position isn't difficult for the club is a waste of everyone's time. No player should have the amount of influence that he does, particularly one who contributes less and less on the field. Barcelona is geared around Leo Messi, and Leo Messi ain't the Leo Messi of a few years ago. While he's still there, Barcelona are incapable of regenerating and reinventing themselves. Partly because of money, partly because of his outsize influence on transfers, selection, and tactics, and partly because of how much time is spent trying to keep him happy.

There's absolutely issues with how their transfer policy, their wage bill, their revolving door of managers. They need a complete overhaul. And losing Messi, fine player though he undoubtedly still is, will help them achieve that. No other player defines Barcelona as much as he does. Not even close.
Messi actually made more tackles per game and interceptions last season than he did his entire career bar one or two seasons. He did that wile playing more minutes than the season before.

Messi's goals and assists this past season accounted for more than 50% of Barcelona's goals. That's more goals and a higher percentage of Barcelona's goal output he contributed to than in his 15-16 season or his 16-17 season from 4 and 5 years ago. He contributed more to defense than say Benzema at Madrid. Messi also had the 4th most touches last season in La Liga and created the most chances.

What is glaringly obvious is the team around him and contributing much less to the cause. As a matter of fact, one of the amazing things about Messi is how consistent he has been the whole of the last decade.
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Jim Lahey
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You can use cold hard official statistics and facts to prove anything.

But I ain’t buying it.
Ian Madigan for Ireland.
bok_viking
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I actually cannot see how any of the clubs would seriously go for Messi right now, no matter how rich the sugar daddy that owns the club. For one, Messi is rumored to be on some crazy wages, working out to close to 1 Million Euros a week. So I imagine that he will have to be willing to take a big pay cut no matter where he goes. He apparently have a very big buy out clause in his contract as well.

I would think if someone like Manchester City or Chelsea do buy him they will straight away trigger a new FFP investigation into their finances, taking in account the transactions they are already doing/have done. I doubt any of those 2 clubs would want to go through that anytime soon based on recent history.

PSG might have the money, but they have had their own run ins with FFP not to long ago. I very much doubt Messi would ever go to Real Madrid. Manchester United are to stingy to go for him, even if they could. Inter and Juventus was linked with him, but whether they have the money to actually afford him is another matter.

So even if Messi did put in a transfer request, I am not sure who can afford him in the current climate even if everyone would love to have him, even at this age. For a move to be successful both Messi and Barca will have to compromise a lot on wages and transfer fees, and I cannot see that happening.
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JM2K6
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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:46 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:36 am The Barcelona wages problem includes Messi who has wages that far exceed anyone else's. He's paid more now than he's ever been, but is some way off his best as a player. That has to be part of the problem.

No-one is trying to make out that there's a single problem at Barcelona. But pretending that Messi's position isn't difficult for the club is a waste of everyone's time. No player should have the amount of influence that he does, particularly one who contributes less and less on the field. Barcelona is geared around Leo Messi, and Leo Messi ain't the Leo Messi of a few years ago. While he's still there, Barcelona are incapable of regenerating and reinventing themselves. Partly because of money, partly because of his outsize influence on transfers, selection, and tactics, and partly because of how much time is spent trying to keep him happy.

There's absolutely issues with how their transfer policy, their wage bill, their revolving door of managers. They need a complete overhaul. And losing Messi, fine player though he undoubtedly still is, will help them achieve that. No other player defines Barcelona as much as he does. Not even close.
Messi actually made more tackles per game and interceptions last season than he did his entire career bar one or two seasons. He did that wile playing more minutes than the season before.

Messi's goals and assists this past season accounted for more than 50% of Barcelona's goals. That's more goals and a higher percentage of Barcelona's goal output he contributed to than in his 15-16 season or his 16-17 season from 4 and 5 years ago. He contributed more to defense than say Benzema at Madrid. Messi also had the 4th most touches last season in La Liga and created the most chances.

What is glaringly obvious is the team around him and contributing much less to the cause. As a matter of fact, one of the amazing things about Messi is how consistent he has been the whole of the last decade.
That's really impressive, but the few Barca matches I've watched this season have all been in Europe and he was in minimum effort mode there. His attitude was very poor.

The stats I'm looking at show a big decline from last season:

2018/19:

34 La Liga matches, 36 goals, 13 assists
10 Champions League matches, 12 goals, 3 assists

2019/20:

33 La Liga matches, 25 goals, 21 assists
8 CL matches, 3 goals, 3 assists

That's a big drop in goal scoring in the league - one of his worst for goals per game - and his worst European performances pretty much ever.

I'm not sure percentages of Barcelona's output is the right metric here, btw. If you're talking about a Barca that's falling apart, it's best to use real numbers as a comparison. Otherwise (to use an extreme example) if they scored 20 goals all season and he got 15 of them, you'd be looking at an amazing 75%... but it'd be very misleading. Do you have the figures in pure numbers?

I can't find reliable stats for tackles, but the ones that even include it for him have him averaging one tackle per game for 2019/20. Have you got the source for those?

It's entirely possible my view of Messi is coloured by his European performances.
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So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
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iarmhí
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sefton wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
Fair comment. Terry was a better defender. I'm a United fan but Maguire is very overrated,
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Hugo
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bok_viking wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:11 pm I would think if someone like Manchester City or Chelsea do buy him they will straight away trigger a new FFP investigation into their finances, taking in account the transactions they are already doing/have done. I doubt any of those 2 clubs would want to go through that anytime soon based on recent history.
I highly doubt Chelsea would be in the market for him. They are trying to build a team for the future and breaking the bank for a 34 year old playmaker doesn't really mesh with the direction they have been going. Pulisic and Mount had very good first seasons and they are only 21, they are trying to sign Havertz who is the same age. Gilmour is even younger than that. I don't see where Messi would fit into their plans.
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iarmhí wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:27 pm
sefton wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
Fair comment. Terry was a better defender. I'm a United fan but Maguire is very overrated,
I like the look of Maguire, he seems to be a tough no nonsense defender, I do think he needs a speedy CB next to him, a bit like the Ferdinand/Vidic combination of old. I think if he has someone fast next to him, it will bring the best out of him. Currently United have a bunch of defenders that are to similar in my opinion and all a bit slow, none of our current possible combinations compliment each other. For Ole to get back to the "United Way" of playing we will need someone fast next to him so the defense line can press higher, currently we get caught out to easily with a high press if the opposition have a fast attack. Also need another no nonsense Box to box Midfielder in the Keane or Carrick mold that can run around like an energizer bunny for 90 minutes. I was quite upset that Herreira left the club at that time as he was such a midfielder.
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eldanielfire
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:17 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:46 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:36 am The Barcelona wages problem includes Messi who has wages that far exceed anyone else's. He's paid more now than he's ever been, but is some way off his best as a player. That has to be part of the problem.

No-one is trying to make out that there's a single problem at Barcelona. But pretending that Messi's position isn't difficult for the club is a waste of everyone's time. No player should have the amount of influence that he does, particularly one who contributes less and less on the field. Barcelona is geared around Leo Messi, and Leo Messi ain't the Leo Messi of a few years ago. While he's still there, Barcelona are incapable of regenerating and reinventing themselves. Partly because of money, partly because of his outsize influence on transfers, selection, and tactics, and partly because of how much time is spent trying to keep him happy.

There's absolutely issues with how their transfer policy, their wage bill, their revolving door of managers. They need a complete overhaul. And losing Messi, fine player though he undoubtedly still is, will help them achieve that. No other player defines Barcelona as much as he does. Not even close.
Messi actually made more tackles per game and interceptions last season than he did his entire career bar one or two seasons. He did that wile playing more minutes than the season before.

Messi's goals and assists this past season accounted for more than 50% of Barcelona's goals. That's more goals and a higher percentage of Barcelona's goal output he contributed to than in his 15-16 season or his 16-17 season from 4 and 5 years ago. He contributed more to defense than say Benzema at Madrid. Messi also had the 4th most touches last season in La Liga and created the most chances.

What is glaringly obvious is the team around him and contributing much less to the cause. As a matter of fact, one of the amazing things about Messi is how consistent he has been the whole of the last decade.
That's really impressive, but the few Barca matches I've watched this season have all been in Europe and he was in minimum effort mode there. His attitude was very poor.

The stats I'm looking at show a big decline from last season:

2018/19:

34 La Liga matches, 36 goals, 13 assists
10 Champions League matches, 12 goals, 3 assists

2019/20:

33 La Liga matches, 25 goals, 21 assists
8 CL matches, 3 goals, 3 assists

That's a big drop in goal scoring in the league - one of his worst for goals per game - and his worst European performances pretty much ever.

I'm not sure percentages of Barcelona's output is the right metric here, btw. If you're talking about a Barca that's falling apart, it's best to use real numbers as a comparison. Otherwise (to use an extreme example) if they scored 20 goals all season and he got 15 of them, you'd be looking at an amazing 75%... but it'd be very misleading. Do you have the figures in pure numbers?

I can't find reliable stats for tackles, but the ones that even include it for him have him averaging one tackle per game for 2019/20. Have you got the source for those?

It's entirely possible my view of Messi is coloured by his European performances.
I used both percentages, absolute numbers and some stats relative to the opposition to show the balance. Messi still sets up the most chances in La Liga but his team is just not taking advantage. A lot fo my stats and facts came form the Telegraph BTW which has an excellent piece on comparing Messi at 33 in the league with his previous years (since 2010) to analysis if he is worth it. Even with fewer goals his high level of assists will puts his goal contributions in line with many of his seasons. The general conclusion is Messi's output has been obscenely high for 10 years, obscenely consistent and last season was on par, despite the apparent drop in goals scored, he's still got the top output in La Liga and the Premiership (which they also compared with him) by some distance.

Of course it is valid in sport to use the eye ball test as you have. It's entirely possibly Messi's poorer european game's body language is a result of lots of going on behind the scenes. The team isn't producing, the president is wreaking the club to serve himself. Messi must be seeing every season lost as a huge missed opportunity for making his case for greatness, more so as he never won an international tournament. Given all I have seen and read, I can only conclude Messi is still performing close to his peak but the team and club are falling apart around him and he has less to work with.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... t-signing/
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JM2K6
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I do not have a Telegraph subscription I'm afraid, but thank you. Curious what stats they use - would guess it's Opta. I'll see if I can dig them up.
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eldanielfire
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:47 pm I do not have a Telegraph subscription I'm afraid, but thank you. Curious what stats they use - would guess it's Opta. I'll see if I can dig them up.
I'll paste the article but much of the stats stuff is in these animations click/search stuff that you can't copy and paste so some key bits or what is referenced isn't there:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... t-signing/

Is Lionel Messi still worth the huge cost of signing him?
World's greatest player would instantly improve any team but star's age makes building around him tricky

By
JJ Bull
26 August 2020 • 2:18pm
Lionel Messi of FC Barcelona during the La Liga Santander match between FC Barcelona v Levante at the Camp Nou
Lionel Messi is the best player in the world but his potential suitors will have to weigh the financial cost against potential contribution to their club CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES

The simple, and obvious, answer to the question posed in the headline above is, clearly, yes. Lionel Messi is the greatest footballer to ever play the sport, so talented that he alone is worth a lengthy pilgrimage to some foreign land to spend 90 minutes watching, so unique and wonderfully creative that it is difficult to imagine anyone ever doing the things he has done.

But... he is 33 years old. And as anyone reading this who has lived beyond the same age is probably aware, no human can escape the slowing process of time, even if Messi could probably nutmeg it. Could any football club in the world realistically justify the enormous costs involved with signing the best player on the planet?

Messi may be past an age usually considered the physical peak for a forward but he is by far and away the most important player - by miles - in the Barcelona team. He scored 25 goals and provided 21 assists last season, having scored 36 goals and assisted 13 in 2018/19, and the further down his season statistics we explore, the more staggeringly consistent his output looks:


The 25 league goals he scored in 2019/20 is actually the lowest number he has recorded since the 2008/09 season but his overall statistical output suggests he is as brilliant as ever, with Messi scoring highest in our La Liga 2019/20 ranking tool for Attack, Vision, Passing, and Dribble metrics:


It's common for a player to top two of these individual metrics and impress in others. Kevin De Bruyne scored highest in the Premier League for both Vision and Passing last season, for example:


These two examples are from different leagues but the difference between Messi's output and De Bruyne - City's star player - are vast.

Messi's statistics are unbelievable and consistent throughout his time at Barcelona. Last season he created more chances than anyone, took more shots, had the fourth most touches, attempted and completed more dribbles - in almost every single one of the various individual metrics that form these player radars, Messi was either top or near it.

All, that is, except his defensive and physical contribution. This is something that hasn't really changed much, if at all, over the last decade:


It's also not a huge departure from what Guardiola gets out of his current left-footed, highly technically gifted right inside-forward, Riyad Mahrez. Where Messi has made 0.64 tackles per 90, 0.21 interceptions per 90, 1.7 recoveries per 90, and conceded 0.61 fouls per 90 (useful in the tactical fouling strategy that Manchester City definitely don't employ), Mahrez has made 0.85 tackles, 0.55 interceptions, 2.73 recoveries, and conceded 0.39 fouls. The Algerian is definitely busier defensively, but scored 11 and assisted nine. A reminder that Messi finished the league season with 25 goals and 21 assists.

Anyone focusing on Messi during a Barcelona game will have noticed in the past how often he wanders lazily up front, occasionally even standing completely still on the opposite side of play. This certainly used to be the case anyway, as Messi conserved his energy off-the-ball to expend it in short, sharp explosive bursts that could decide the outcome of matches, but ever since Luis Enrique left Barcelona, Messi's role has changed.

Under Guardiola, Messi was a right-sided forward on the team sheet who actually played as a central attacker, flanked by the irrepressible running of Dani Alves on his outside. Nominally a right-back, Alves was essentially the right winger, providing the width that Guardiola needed on the wing to keep the formational structure of his system intact, create overloads in attacking phases and allow Messi to pull the strings.

Barcelona don't play in the same way they used to, no longer relying on the Cruyff variants of a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 as Guardiola did, and usually set up in a 4-4-2 under Ernesto Valverde and Quique Setien presumably because it best fit the personnel available. Whatever the system, Messi has had something of a free role, with the team entirely dependent on him because it has been built that way.

Were Manchester City to sign Messi, would Guardiola be willing to allow one player to contribute so little to his side's intense pressing style? Even the club's all-time top scorer, Sergio Aguero, has been dropped in the past to fit tactical demands, with Gabriel Jesus' off-the-ball workrate preferred to Aguero's attacking nous for City's Champions League first leg victory over Real Madrid in February this year.

For Guardiola the system is king, and if Messi were unable to press, track and win the ball with the determination and energy that his gameplan requires, would it be worth smashing the club's wage system and causing potential unrest in the squad to accommodate him?

Absolutely yes. Of course it would. Adjustments have to be made for a generational, universal talent like Messi and the last (if it is the last...) goal he scored for Barcelona was hardly an example of a player who needs to 'get stuck in' a little more, and certainly not one in physical decline either:


It's not just that Messi is able to weave his way between five players, holding off three potential fouls on his path to setting up the shot, but the accuracy and power he finds to beat the goalkeeper. He's like a video game character with almost every attribute set to 99, something that has literally been the case in versions of Pes and Fifa over the past decade.

This individual match-winning kind of magic is something that cannot be coached and with the right framework around him, Messi can be the difference between a very good team and a great one. Players win titles and Guardiola knows it.

Asked recently what Guardiola thought of the idea that he was only able to win the Champions League with Barcelona because he had the likes of Andres Iniesta, Xavi and Lionel Messi, the Manchester City manager emphatically agreed.


"I would not argue one second because when I was there I said many times we win because this club had incredible players."

Asked in a separate press conference earlier in his City career who the favourites to win the Champions League were, Guardiola simply replied: "Who does Messi play for?"

Messi has been carrying an inferior group of players for a few seasons now, single-handedly winning Barcelona games they would otherwise lose, bearing the heavy weight of responsibility. We see this in his positioning, with Messi regularly dropping as deep as defensive midfield to get on the ball and take control of the game, like an overworked puppeteer rather than protagonist.

Even then he finds a way to stand out, with WhoScored's player ratings system scoring him the best player on the pitch in 27 of the 44 matches in all competition that he played in 2019/20. For anyone unfamiliar with WhoScored's excellent scoring algorithm, rest assured that this is astonishing.

As for the logistics of this move, Manchester City would receive an enormous commercial and reputational boost were they to pull off the signing of the greatest player on the planet and if anyone can design a tactical structure that maximises the best of every individual - and particularly the star - it is Guardiola.

The best players tend to win the most trophies in football. Whoever has Messi will have one of the best teams in the world.
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JM2K6
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Thanks, that's good stuff. His defensive stats are really low! It's a shame they don't have "metres run" either, that would be fascinating to compare.
bok_viking
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm Thanks, that's good stuff. His defensive stats are really low! It's a shame they don't have "metres run" either, that would be fascinating to compare.
I think the defensive stats are so low as Messi was never required to tackle back much. When Barca was at their best, he was just required to hang around and give all defenses nightmares when the ball came Barca's way. Defense was most likely only needed as a last ditch effort from him. Even at this stage of his career, I think he is still a more than useful attacker that can cause any defense trouble, I just think the price he would command is more than most people would be willing to pay for someone his age. Its a bit of the same with Ronaldo, although Ronaldo is a machine when it comes to exercise and practice, so was able to keep up performances for the most part even getting to the twilight of his career. Ronaldo also seem to have this drive to try and prove himself the best any various leagues and get silverware in various leagues. I cannot say that I know much of Messi's training life or his drive to prove himself in various leagues. But I would guess if he does look after himself he could be effective and useful in a squad up to an age of 40, a bit like Giggs was, not always a starter but very useful off the bench in the last few years.
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Hugo wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:32 pm
bok_viking wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:11 pm I would think if someone like Manchester City or Chelsea do buy him they will straight away trigger a new FFP investigation into their finances, taking in account the transactions they are already doing/have done. I doubt any of those 2 clubs would want to go through that anytime soon based on recent history.
I highly doubt Chelsea would be in the market for him. They are trying to build a team for the future and breaking the bank for a 34 year old playmaker doesn't really mesh with the direction they have been going. Pulisic and Mount had very good first seasons and they are only 21, they are trying to sign Havertz who is the same age. Gilmour is even younger than that. I don't see where Messi would fit into their plans.
I just mentioned Chelsea because they were linked with buying Messi today in some newspapers, but then again, he would be linked with just about anyone as soon as it came out that he put in a transfer request.

I would prefer for Manchester United to go the same way as Chelsea and go after young players that can make the team strong for years to come. I think the United first 11 is pretty strong, but there is no squad depth for a prolonged campaign, so I rather they use a couple of transfer windows and build depth instead of buying "star" players at inflated prices. The last month have shown that Ole does not trust his bench to be strong enough, so were basically playing the same team match after match, every 3 or 4 days, and it showed, in the last 3 weeks that first 11 looked very jaded and without energy. So they desperately need to build squad depth if they want to compete against Liverpool, Manchester City, Chelsea and even Arsenal.
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iarmhí wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:27 pm
sefton wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
Fair comment. Terry was a better defender. I'm a United fan but Maguire is very overrated,
Who rates Maguire?
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bok_viking wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:51 pm
iarmhí wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:27 pm
sefton wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
Fair comment. Terry was a better defender. I'm a United fan but Maguire is very overrated,
I like the look of Maguire, he seems to be a tough no nonsense defender, I do think he needs a speedy CB next to him, a bit like the Ferdinand/Vidic combination of old. I think if he has someone fast next to him, it will bring the best out of him. Currently United have a bunch of defenders that are to similar in my opinion and all a bit slow, none of our current possible combinations compliment each other. For Ole to get back to the "United Way" of playing we will need someone fast next to him so the defense line can press higher, currently we get caught out to easily with a high press if the opposition have a fast attack. Also need another no nonsense Box to box Midfielder in the Keane or Carrick mold that can run around like an energizer bunny for 90 minutes. I was quite upset that Herreira left the club at that time as he was such a midfielder.
Who was the quick one out of Dolly and Daisy?
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So Skysports have dumped Le Tissier, Phil Thompson and Champagne Charlie from soccer Saturday.

Yet Merson survives........ :sick:
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eldanielfire
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HighKingLeinster wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:16 pm So Skysports have dumped Le Tissier, Phil Thompson and Champagne Charlie from soccer Saturday.

Yet Merson survives........ :sick:
A lot of people went off on this on Twitter, sadly claiming they were fired due to being old white men and will be replaced by Micah, Alex or Clinton as they are black. There are two things to unpack here. Some of the comments here have been sad and utterly undignified. We have no idea why they are fired or who will replace them or what motivates it.

However it also sadly shows the wider complete mistrust and ongoing disappointment in the media and their motives we have today. Those flames were of course fanned by the BBCs recent diversity pushes for shows to be a certain level of diverse on screen, despite a statistic showing BAME people are on screen for a far higher percentage their their population in Britain. Such pushes are generally counter productive IMO and help stoke anger. I would also say positive racial discrimination is racism, even if it is perceived as the opposite.
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Hugo
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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:28 pm
HighKingLeinster wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:16 pm So Skysports have dumped Le Tissier, Phil Thompson and Champagne Charlie from soccer Saturday.

Yet Merson survives........ :sick:
A lot of people went off on this on Twitter, sadly claiming they were fired due to being old white men and will be replaced by Micah, Alex or Clinton as they are black. There are two things to unpack here. Some of the comments here have been sad and utterly undignified. We have no idea why they are fired or who will replace them or what motivates it.

However it also sadly shows the wider complete mistrust and ongoing disappointment in the media and their motives we have today. Those flames were of course fanned by the BBCs recent diversity pushes for shows to be a certain level of diverse on screen, despite a statistic showing BAME people are on screen for a far higher percentage their their population in Britain. Such pushes are generally counter productive IMO and help stoke anger. I would also say positive racial discrimination is racism, even if it is perceived as the opposite.
I wasn't aware of those dynamics but what I will say is that I think sports pundits, commentators and presenters are massively overpaid and overrated for what they add to a broadcast.

Apart from say, a Bill Mclaren (who was worth every penny he was paid because he enhanced the viewing experience) most of them are just getting paid a lot of money to state the obvious with negligible charm or charisma.

I would say the BBC lineup of yesteryear was pretty good - Lynam, Ryder, Murray Walker, Motty, Mclaren, Benaud, Ted Lowe etc. but the ones nowadays don't have that same affable manner and their passion for their sport is not as evident. They are too angry and too cynical.
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eldanielfire
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Hugo wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:28 pm
HighKingLeinster wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:16 pm So Skysports have dumped Le Tissier, Phil Thompson and Champagne Charlie from soccer Saturday.

Yet Merson survives........ :sick:
A lot of people went off on this on Twitter, sadly claiming they were fired due to being old white men and will be replaced by Micah, Alex or Clinton as they are black. There are two things to unpack here. Some of the comments here have been sad and utterly undignified. We have no idea why they are fired or who will replace them or what motivates it.

However it also sadly shows the wider complete mistrust and ongoing disappointment in the media and their motives we have today. Those flames were of course fanned by the BBCs recent diversity pushes for shows to be a certain level of diverse on screen, despite a statistic showing BAME people are on screen for a far higher percentage their their population in Britain. Such pushes are generally counter productive IMO and help stoke anger. I would also say positive racial discrimination is racism, even if it is perceived as the opposite.
I wasn't aware of those dynamics but what I will say is that I think sports pundits, commentators and presenters are massively overpaid and overrated for what they add to a broadcast.

Apart from say, a Bill Mclaren (who was worth every penny he was paid because he enhanced the viewing experience) most of them are just getting paid a lot of money to state the obvious with negligible charm or charisma.

I would say the BBC lineup of yesteryear was pretty good - Lynam, Ryder, Murray Walker, Motty, Mclaren, Benaud, Ted Lowe etc. but the ones nowadays don't have that same affable manner and their passion for their sport is not as evident. They are too angry and too cynical.
I'm actually someone who thinks there are to many cosy punditry jobs for footballers who don't add much insight or understanding. I don't know about Sky shows as I don't have sky but taking the BBC why Alan Shearer who has little in the way of personality or insight? Or Rio Ferdinand on BT who can barely string sentences together. I recall the MOTD line-up in the 90's as elite and brilliant as you could possibly imagine, Lynam, Hansen when he gave a fuck etc. Perhaps only equaled by the Athletics.
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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:28 pm
Hugo wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:28 pm

A lot of people went off on this on Twitter, sadly claiming they were fired due to being old white men and will be replaced by Micah, Alex or Clinton as they are black. There are two things to unpack here. Some of the comments here have been sad and utterly undignified. We have no idea why they are fired or who will replace them or what motivates it.

However it also sadly shows the wider complete mistrust and ongoing disappointment in the media and their motives we have today. Those flames were of course fanned by the BBCs recent diversity pushes for shows to be a certain level of diverse on screen, despite a statistic showing BAME people are on screen for a far higher percentage their their population in Britain. Such pushes are generally counter productive IMO and help stoke anger. I would also say positive racial discrimination is racism, even if it is perceived as the opposite.
I wasn't aware of those dynamics but what I will say is that I think sports pundits, commentators and presenters are massively overpaid and overrated for what they add to a broadcast.

Apart from say, a Bill Mclaren (who was worth every penny he was paid because he enhanced the viewing experience) most of them are just getting paid a lot of money to state the obvious with negligible charm or charisma.

I would say the BBC lineup of yesteryear was pretty good - Lynam, Ryder, Murray Walker, Motty, Mclaren, Benaud, Ted Lowe etc. but the ones nowadays don't have that same affable manner and their passion for their sport is not as evident. They are too angry and too cynical.
I'm actually someone who thinks there are to many cosy punditry jobs for footballers who don't add much insight or understanding. I don't know about Sky shows as I don't have sky but taking the BBC why Alan Shearer who has little in the way of personality or insight? Or Rio Ferdinand on BT who can barely string sentences together. I recall the MOTD line-up in the 90's as elite and brilliant as you could possibly imagine, Lynam, Hansen when he gave a fuck etc. Perhaps only equaled by the Athletics.
Yeah, its just money for old rope.
sefton
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Poor Harry, in fear of his life, our brave English lionheart.
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JM2K6
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Didn't take long for the Swarm to start putting the boot in :roll:
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Hugo
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Watched that Anelka documentary on netflix. I wanted to like him, at the outset I was open minded and set aside my prejudices but he just came across as a self indulgent brat. Playing for WBA, being substituted in the 70th minute of a 0-0 draw, sulking, then not talking to the coach and celebrating after he got the sack. Childish.

There's only really so many words and ways you can use - wayward genius, enigma, maverick - to try and disguise the fact that his behaviour was at its core unprofessional at many times in his career.

I think Wenger's analysis was spot on, he had a very good career but it could have been so much better.
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Hugo
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What the documentary rammed home was the absolutely insane amount of footballing talent France have produced the past few decades.

Consider that players as gifted as Anelka, Ginola and Cantona were non entities for France.
Blackmac
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New guy wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:34 pm
iarmhí wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:27 pm
sefton wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm So Harry Maguire, the new John Terry.
Fair comment. Terry was a better defender. I'm a United fan but Maguire is very overrated,
Who rates Maguire?
He interviews less sincerely than Prince Andrew.
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Hugo
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... e-incident
Neville laughably trying to spin the whole thing as something that could create more unity in the dressing room and then there's this cracker:

"Myself as a fan in the media will not judge him in any way, shape or form because of the reality is that these things happen in life".

He's an insufferable knob who won't call Maguire out because he has the maturity of a 12 year old.
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eldanielfire
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Arsenal beat Liverpool to win the community shield.

As I said Arteta is a class manager. He seems to get every player in his charge to play two or more levels above where they did before him and install total confidence in them. And tactically he seems to be sharp. He's now turned a team in disarray and sinking into a team who have beaten the whole top 4 in big games and won two pieces of silverware without any actual transfer additions of note playing for him yet.

I genuinely think Arsenal will compete for top 4 this season.
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eldanielfire
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Hugo wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:54 am Watched that Anelka documentary on netflix. I wanted to like him, at the outset I was open minded and set aside my prejudices but he just came across as a self indulgent brat. Playing for WBA, being substituted in the 70th minute of a 0-0 draw, sulking, then not talking to the coach and celebrating after he got the sack. Childish.

There's only really so many words and ways you can use - wayward genius, enigma, maverick - to try and disguise the fact that his behaviour was at its core unprofessional at many times in his career.

I think Wenger's analysis was spot on, he had a very good career but it could have been so much better.
I predicted before the documentary couldn't possibly make Anelka understanding figure, he's so utterlystroppy, self-centered and un self-aware he can never take responsibility for his own decisions and behaviour.
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eldanielfire
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Hugo wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:30 am https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... e-incident
Neville laughably trying to spin the whole thing as something that could create more unity in the dressing room and then there's this cracker:

"Myself as a fan in the media will not judge him in any way, shape or form because of the reality is that these things happen in life".

He's an insufferable knob who won't call Maguire out because he has the maturity of a 12 year old.
Neville seems to think his job is to defend everything Man Utd. Even Man Utd fans call him out for his defense of Ole and half the team.
New guy
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eldanielfire wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:17 pm Arsenal beat Liverpool to win the community shield.

As I said Arteta is a class manager. He seems to get every player in his charge to play two or more levels above where they did before him and install total confidence in them. And tactically he seems to be sharp. He's now turned a team in disarray and sinking into a team who have beaten the whole top 4 in big games and won two pieces of silverware without any actual transfer additions of note playing for him yet.

I genuinely think Arsenal will compete for top 4 this season.
Yes but we all know your definition of competing is quite broad :wave:
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Kawazaki
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eldanielfire wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:18 pm
Hugo wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:54 am Watched that Anelka documentary on netflix. I wanted to like him, at the outset I was open minded and set aside my prejudices but he just came across as a self indulgent brat. Playing for WBA, being substituted in the 70th minute of a 0-0 draw, sulking, then not talking to the coach and celebrating after he got the sack. Childish.

There's only really so many words and ways you can use - wayward genius, enigma, maverick - to try and disguise the fact that his behaviour was at its core unprofessional at many times in his career.

I think Wenger's analysis was spot on, he had a very good career but it could have been so much better.
I predicted before the documentary couldn't possibly make Anelka understanding figure, he's so utterlystroppy, self-centered and un self-aware he can never take responsibility for his own decisions and behaviour.

That description sounds like Ozil. I hope Ozil will be the last of his type of player we see, not just at Arsenal but in the English league. And by 'type', I don't mean the brilliant visionary passer and assist king, I mean the type that just doesn't try or even bother acting like he's trying. Who would rather get rich not playing then work hard to get back into form and/or the team. The Winston Bogarde template.
TheNatalShark
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Bit annoying that Aberdeen have drawn Viking FK away (vs Welsh/Lux fodder) for the next round of EL as they appear have picked up form last few weeks.

Will be annoying to be papped out again so early in another slippery round, but we've finally got a ball playing (and scoring) midfield again with players in form. Helps they've stayed out of the pub.

Who knows what we'll be like after the break though.
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JM2K6
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Kawazaki wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:19 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:18 pm
Hugo wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:54 am Watched that Anelka documentary on netflix. I wanted to like him, at the outset I was open minded and set aside my prejudices but he just came across as a self indulgent brat. Playing for WBA, being substituted in the 70th minute of a 0-0 draw, sulking, then not talking to the coach and celebrating after he got the sack. Childish.

There's only really so many words and ways you can use - wayward genius, enigma, maverick - to try and disguise the fact that his behaviour was at its core unprofessional at many times in his career.

I think Wenger's analysis was spot on, he had a very good career but it could have been so much better.
I predicted before the documentary couldn't possibly make Anelka understanding figure, he's so utterlystroppy, self-centered and un self-aware he can never take responsibility for his own decisions and behaviour.

That description sounds like Ozil. I hope Ozil will be the last of his type of player we see, not just at Arsenal but in the English league. And by 'type', I don't mean the brilliant visionary passer and assist king, I mean the type that just doesn't try or even bother acting like he's trying. Who would rather get rich not playing then work hard to get back into form and/or the team. The Winston Bogarde template.
All three of those players are very different.

Bogarde: Literally didn't want to play football and wanted money for nothing.
Ozil: flaky genius who probably didn't have the backbone for English football, created loads of goals but never one for the trenches. Has 184 appearances for Arsenal and another 105 for Real Madrid. And a world cup winner's medal. Seems like a nice guy, just a bit soft.
Anelka: superb striker with a cunt of an agent and a really spiky attitude. Never really settled anywhere but scored plenty. Played for 12 different clubs, several of them at the top of the game, but rarely staying for long because of him and his agent's arseholery.

Obviously all wasted money for some clubs but I'm not sure Anelka ever got to the "not trying" stage except at the very end of his career.
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TheNatalShark wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:29 am Bit annoying that Aberdeen have drawn Viking FK away (vs Welsh/Lux fodder) for the next round of EL as they appear have picked up form last few weeks.

Will be annoying to be papped out again so early in another slippery round, but we've finally got a ball playing (and scoring) midfield again with players in form. Helps they've stayed out of the pub.

Who knows what we'll be like after the break though.
And the reward for winning the toughest fixture in the round is Sporting Lisbon away :roll:
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Akkerman
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the Zlatan to end Covid

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eldanielfire
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:12 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:19 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:18 pm

I predicted before the documentary couldn't possibly make Anelka understanding figure, he's so utterlystroppy, self-centered and un self-aware he can never take responsibility for his own decisions and behaviour.

That description sounds like Ozil. I hope Ozil will be the last of his type of player we see, not just at Arsenal but in the English league. And by 'type', I don't mean the brilliant visionary passer and assist king, I mean the type that just doesn't try or even bother acting like he's trying. Who would rather get rich not playing then work hard to get back into form and/or the team. The Winston Bogarde template.
All three of those players are very different.

Bogarde: Literally didn't want to play football and wanted money for nothing.
Ozil: flaky genius who probably didn't have the backbone for English football, created loads of goals but never one for the trenches. Has 184 appearances for Arsenal and another 105 for Real Madrid. And a world cup winner's medal. Seems like a nice guy, just a bit soft.
Anelka: superb striker with a cunt of an agent and a really spiky attitude. Never really settled anywhere but scored plenty. Played for 12 different clubs, several of them at the top of the game, but rarely staying for long because of him and his agent's arseholery.

Obviously all wasted money for some clubs but I'm not sure Anelka ever got to the "not trying" stage except at the very end of his career.
I agree Ozil is not at all like Anelka, even if Ozil's recent actions have made him look a bit Anelka-like to Arsenal fans, it's quite a different situation.

An issue with Ozi to give him some credit, l I read about some time ago is his problem is he never adapted to the evolution of the Number 10 role. As the various forms of 451s of last decade evolved into the more popular 433 formations by the middle of the past decade, the 10 role changed dramatically, some say it died out and became a completely different role. Some 10's adapted, Ozil didn't. I can't find the article I read (or was it a video) but there are plenty of references to the decline of the class 10 when searching google.
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eldanielfire
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Akkerman wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:19 pm the Zlatan to end Covid

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Love Zlatan :lol:
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Hugo
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Chelsea spent a fortune this summer but did not prioritise their biggest area of need - goalkeeping. They only just made the deal for that big lad from France.

They had such a porous defence last season and have already let in 6 goals in less than 3 games this.
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ScarfaceClaw
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Spurs lobbing in a 10-0-0 formation after getting an early goal.
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