Professional rugby is screwed then?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Back to amateur?

One can only dream.

All the best talent leaving en masse for other football codes at age 16 leaving pub rugby teams the length and breadth of the country.

Yeah, sounds ace.

[Carter's Choice]

Back to amateur?

One can only dream.

All the best talent leaving en masse for other football codes at age 16 leaving pub rugby teams the length and breadth of the country.

Yeah, sounds ace.

yes not sure CM11 has fully thought through his dream of a return to the amateur era.

[Chrysoprase]

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I seem to remember one of the old committee men at my club telling me that it cost a remarkably high amount of money to keep our club going. It was somewhere in the region of £30k annually.

That was to cover things like:

• coaches wages - we weren't paying anyone full time
• bus hire for away matches - when I was part of the coaching team for the 1st XV we did our bit to try and bring this cost down by hiring minibuses which we drove ourselves to any away game that was within a 1 hour driving distance
• laundry - we washed the match day shirts for 4 adult teams every week
• match day hospitality - we would usually provide sandwiches and a few beers for our sponsors and the visiting team's dignitaries after every home game
• grounds maintenance and upkeep

There's probably more that can be added to that, it's been a while since I was hands on at the club, but all of these things mount up pretty quickly and we operated on a more or less hand to mouth existence every year. The players paid annual membership which was a small contribution, we collected match fees from them for every game which were supposed to go back into club funds but usually got spent on buying the opposition beer in the club house after hostilities had ended.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I seem to remember one of the old committee men at my club telling me that it cost a remarkably high amount of money to keep our club going. It was somewhere in the region of £30k annually.

That was to cover things like:

• coaches wages - we weren't paying anyone full time
• bus hire for away matches - when I was part of the coaching team for the 1st XV we did our bit to try and bring this cost down by hiring minibuses which we drove ourselves to any away game that was within a 1 hour driving distance
• laundry - we washed the match day shirts for 4 adult teams every week
• match day hospitality - we would usually provide sandwiches and a few beers for our sponsors and the visiting team's dignitaries after every home game
• grounds maintenance and upkeep

There's probably more that can be added to that, it's been a while since I was hands on at the club, but all of these things mount up pretty quickly and we operated on a more or less hand to mouth existence every year. The players paid annual membership which was a small contribution, we collected match fees from them for every game which were supposed to go back into club funds but usually got spent on buying the opposition beer in the club house after hostilities had ended.

In the case of my small hometown in NZ you would have each of the NZRU, Crusaders and the Mid Canterbury Rugby Union contributing to these costs such that you only ask the players to fund their own gear and the nominal cost of their annual sub. Of course the club also gets by on the volunteer efforts of its members.

I'm not sure how the model works in England but it seems to me that clubs need to be fully not for profit revenue earning entities, which to me seems a bit odd.

[Slick]

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I know my local club has gone down from being able to field 3 teams with subs and spares to barely fielding 1 in the course of this pandemic, i also know other local clubs are in the same boat which would suggest at the grass roots this is a clear pattern. It may be that a lot of the smaller local clubs will need to merge to survive which will be a lot of history and local rivalry gone forever.

There was a piece in The Times last week about clubs actually increasing player numbers during this period, more turning up for training etc. I’m sure the long term prognosis is different though

[Kawazaki]

Test matches aren't really special any more. Even RWCs are just a resumption in routine and regular hostilities at the sharp end. Players are reaching 150 caps. This is not what test rugby should be in my opinion.

Yet everything that isn't test rugby depends on the gate receipts from test rugby to be viable?

There is definitely a symbiotic relationship between the professional clubs and the unions but I think it is now overplayed how much the international game supports the English and French club system. If anything, as we've seen with Saracens, it massively debilitates the quality of the club side if they are successful.

[Kawazaki]

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I seem to remember one of the old committee men at my club telling me that it cost a remarkably high amount of money to keep our club going. It was somewhere in the region of £30k annually.

That was to cover things like:

• coaches wages - we weren't paying anyone full time
• bus hire for away matches - when I was part of the coaching team for the 1st XV we did our bit to try and bring this cost down by hiring minibuses which we drove ourselves to any away game that was within a 1 hour driving distance
• laundry - we washed the match day shirts for 4 adult teams every week
• match day hospitality - we would usually provide sandwiches and a few beers for our sponsors and the visiting team's dignitaries after every home game
• grounds maintenance and upkeep

There's probably more that can be added to that, it's been a while since I was hands on at the club, but all of these things mount up pretty quickly and we operated on a more or less hand to mouth existence every year. The players paid annual membership which was a small contribution, we collected match fees from them for every game which were supposed to go back into club funds but usually got spent on buying the opposition beer in the club house after hostilities had ended.

I think the maintenance and break-even figure for my old junior club is well into 3-figures annually.

[Chrysoprase]

Spoiler

Show

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I seem to remember one of the old committee men at my club telling me that it cost a remarkably high amount of money to keep our club going. It was somewhere in the region of £30k annually.

That was to cover things like:

• coaches wages - we weren't paying anyone full time
• bus hire for away matches - when I was part of the coaching team for the 1st XV we did our bit to try and bring this cost down by hiring minibuses which we drove ourselves to any away game that was within a 1 hour driving distance
• laundry - we washed the match day shirts for 4 adult teams every week
• match day hospitality - we would usually provide sandwiches and a few beers for our sponsors and the visiting team's dignitaries after every home game
• grounds maintenance and upkeep

There's probably more that can be added to that, it's been a while since I was hands on at the club, but all of these things mount up pretty quickly and we operated on a more or less hand to mouth existence every year. The players paid annual membership which was a small contribution, we collected match fees from them for every game which were supposed to go back into club funds but usually got spent on buying the opposition beer in the club house after hostilities had ended.

In the case of my small hometown in NZ you would have each of the NZRU, Crusaders and the Mid Canterbury Rugby Union contributing to these costs such that you only ask the players to fund their own gear and the nominal cost of their annual sub. Of course the club also gets by on the volunteer efforts of its members.

I'm not sure how the model works in England but it seems to me that clubs need to be fully not for profit revenue earning entities, which to me seems a bit odd.

We got some amount of funding from the SRU every year and that could be increased by doing things like contributing members of the club to the referee pool, but it wasn't nearly enough to allow us to keep going without some significant fund raising activities every year.
The union would also help with costs associated with travelling to remote clubs like those on Orkney or Shetland and I'm pretty sure they gave those clubs a lot of help in general. Overall though, we couldn't rely on the union or the district in helping us out. We also had a lot of volunteers who kept the place going.

The not for profit thing that's been mentioned I think is in relation to clubs being able to claim tax breaks. It's not mandatory that a club doesn't make any money, it's just that most don't.

[Niegs]

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I seem to remember one of the old committee men at my club telling me that it cost a remarkably high amount of money to keep our club going. It was somewhere in the region of £30k annually.

That was to cover things like:

• coaches wages - we weren't paying anyone full time
• bus hire for away matches - when I was part of the coaching team for the 1st XV we did our bit to try and bring this cost down by hiring minibuses which we drove ourselves to any away game that was within a 1 hour driving distance
• laundry - we washed the match day shirts for 4 adult teams every week
• match day hospitality - we would usually provide sandwiches and a few beers for our sponsors and the visiting team's dignitaries after every home game
• grounds maintenance and upkeep

There's probably more that can be added to that, it's been a while since I was hands on at the club, but all of these things mount up pretty quickly and we operated on a more or less hand to mouth existence every year. The players paid annual membership which was a small contribution, we collected match fees from them for every game which were supposed to go back into club funds but usually got spent on buying the opposition beer in the club house after hostilities had ended.

In the case of my small hometown in NZ you would have each of the NZRU, Crusaders and the Mid Canterbury Rugby Union contributing to these costs such that you only ask the players to fund their own gear and the nominal cost of their annual sub. Of course the club also gets by on the volunteer efforts of its members.

I'm not sure how the model works in England but it seems to me that clubs need to be fully not for profit revenue earning entities, which to me seems a bit odd.

One would hope, then, if work inside the club is mostly volunteer run, a complete shut down wouldn't incur most of the operational costs. Utility bills would still need to be paid, but not having the lights on for evening training (hopefully) wouldn't be nearly as much.

In general, things don't look good, but seeing both my club and potential uni coaching seasons cancelled, I maintain 100% that it's much better than risking spread. Clubs here have been allowed Touch so long as strict rules are followed, but my club has decided it's not worth the risk and is focusing on 2021. But as I mentioned earlier, most of us don't own clubs and rent per-use from school boards and municipalities. The Union will take a hit though as membership funding pays their operational costs - staff, building rental, etc.

[Niegs]

Steve Diamond tells it like it is:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ays-steve/

[Chrysoprase]

One would hope, then, if work inside the club is mostly volunteer run, a complete shut down wouldn't incur most of the operational costs. Utility bills would still need to be paid, but not having the lights on for evening training (hopefully) wouldn't be nearly as much.

In general, things don't look good, but seeing both my club and potential uni coaching seasons cancelled, I maintain 100% that it's much better than risking spread. Clubs here have been allowed Touch so long as strict rules are followed, but my club has decided it's not worth the risk and is focusing on 2021. But as I mentioned earlier, most of us don't own clubs and rent per-use from school boards and municipalities. The Union will take a hit though as membership funding pays their operational costs - staff, building rental, etc.

I would agree and I was thinking that as I was typing up my post above. I think in the context of the majority of amateur clubs that the most of their costs are incurred through actively training for and playing rugby. If all that is off the table then hopefully they'll be in a better position to ride this out than the pro sides who have big payrolls that still have to be serviced along with all their other financial commitments.

[SaintK]

One would hope, then, if work inside the club is mostly volunteer run, a complete shut down wouldn't incur most of the operational costs. Utility bills would still need to be paid, but not having the lights on for evening training (hopefully) wouldn't be nearly as much.

In general, things don't look good, but seeing both my club and potential uni coaching seasons cancelled, I maintain 100% that it's much better than risking spread. Clubs here have been allowed Touch so long as strict rules are followed, but my club has decided it's not worth the risk and is focusing on 2021. But as I mentioned earlier, most of us don't own clubs and rent per-use from school boards and municipalities. The Union will take a hit though as membership funding pays their operational costs - staff, building rental, etc.

I would agree and I was thinking that as I was typing up my post above. I think in the context of the majority of amateur clubs that the most of their costs are incurred through actively training for and playing rugby. If all that is off the table then hopefully they'll be in a better position to ride this out than the pro sides who have big payrolls that still have to be serviced along with all their other financial commitments.

My club's main overheads are utility bills, cost of food (all teams are provided with a meal after each match), pitch maintenance, and a part time club house manager
Been lucky so far that the weather has been good since we came out of lockdown so no heating bills and showers are out of bounds after training so no cost there then. We will start to use the training lights during the week as the nights draw in though. Our rates have been frozen by the local council until we resume playing, they have been very supportive to local community sports clubs. No outgoings on playing kit either as we will use the same kit as last season and any free kit we give out across the 22 teams across all sections at the club will be covered by sponsors from previous seasons.
We are well managed financially and will survive, there are other clubs in the county that will struggle badly some may go under

[Niegs]

One would hope, then, if work inside the club is mostly volunteer run, a complete shut down wouldn't incur most of the operational costs. Utility bills would still need to be paid, but not having the lights on for evening training (hopefully) wouldn't be nearly as much.

In general, things don't look good, but seeing both my club and potential uni coaching seasons cancelled, I maintain 100% that it's much better than risking spread. Clubs here have been allowed Touch so long as strict rules are followed, but my club has decided it's not worth the risk and is focusing on 2021. But as I mentioned earlier, most of us don't own clubs and rent per-use from school boards and municipalities. The Union will take a hit though as membership funding pays their operational costs - staff, building rental, etc.

I would agree and I was thinking that as I was typing up my post above. I think in the context of the majority of amateur clubs that the most of their costs are incurred through actively training for and playing rugby. If all that is off the table then hopefully they'll be in a better position to ride this out than the pro sides who have big payrolls that still have to be serviced along with all their other financial commitments.

It's also made me wonder what their alternative sources of funding might be? I once belonged to a club that had a great deal with a pub/restaurant in which they'd get a percentage back from all meals (not including drinks) had at ANY time of year. A core of players and coaches typically had dinner there after training Tues/Thurs, had a pre-bar meal there on Sats, some of the office types would do their work lunches there, family meals out, etc.

I can't remember the exact figure, but something in my mind tells me they spent five figures in meals in one year and reaped something like 5k back (with jokes about how some individuals at more meals at the pub than at home ). Partnerships like that might help businesses that aren't doing so well either.