The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Yr Alban]

So the squad is announced this afternoon I think. I think it will look something like this:

Hookers (4): Ashman, Turner, Cherry, Matthews
Not much to comment on here. Brown is out due to injury and age, nobody else is really coming through. Robbie Smith is around the Newcastle side I think so could be a leftfield 4th option but the others are all better. It's a shame Patrick Harrison has stalled, Hiddleston might be about to start his run but its much too early to think about Scotland caps.

Props (7): [TH] Fagerson, Nel, Rae; [LH] Schoeman, Bhatti, ?; [cover] Kebble
One prop place remains unclear due to injury in the main. Sebastian would most likely have filled it. Walker may have got into the squad but for injury. The lack of props is a bit overdone as an issue to be honest as there are plenty, the issue is of course more about quality than quantity. On the tighthead side there are McCallum and Will Hurd from Leicester (still surprised he hasn't had the call yet). On the loosehead side there is Grahamslaw (Bristol), Hislop (injured), Dell (injured?) and McBeth. I think McBeth will take the last loosie spot.

Locks (5): RGray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Young, Sykes
I think Young is likely in with Sykes perhaps sneaking the last squad place. JGray isn't going to be fit, neither is Henderson and Alex Craig at Scarlets seems to be off Toonie's radar. Skinner may sneak in as a lock as Toonie loves his versatility but I think he is only just back from injury too.

Backrow (7): Dempsey, Fagerson, Darge, Richie, Watson, Crosbie, Christie
I think Dempsey gets in despite fitness worries, he is too much of a point of difference to leave out and is arguably our only hard carrying back row. Bradbury, Boyle (injury) and Bayliss miss out as Christie sneaks that last spot for his great form at Sarries this year.

Scrumhalf (3): Horne, Price, White
Easy peasy on the 9s I think. Vellacott, Dobie and Chapman all miss out. The U20 cap we are chasing (forget his name) likely to chuck his lot in with England I think

Flyhalf (3): Russell, Healy, Hastings
As good a group of 10s as I can remember, ever. Jordan and Thompson to miss out as frankly they aren't as good as the others. Kiwi superstar 10s will not appear over the horizon.

Centre (5): Jones, Redpath, Tuipulotu, McDowall, Harris
I am salivating at the thought of an axis of Russel - Redpath - Tuipulotu. It surely has everything you could want? Plenty decent players will miss out including Currie, Bennett, Hutchinson and Lang.

Wing (5): Duhan, Darcy, Reed, Rowe, Steyn
Duhan and Darcy pick themselves and the Reed inclusion has been well trailed. That leaves two spots which I think will go to Steyn (who Toonie loves for his versatility) and Rowe kind of by default. I am genuinely struggling to think of anyone else.

Fullback: Kinghorn, ?
I'm at a loss to name another fullback with Smith injured - I think the wings will cover as I don't think Harry Patterson is ready. Either that or a Tombola pick.

Overall a pretty easy to select squad with the big question marks for me being 3rd choice LH, 5th choice lock, is Dempsey fit, 5th choice wing and reserve fullback.

I wonder if Hutchinson might get in as he can play 15 and is playing well too.

I’d actually forgotten about that. Of course, Toony finally picked him for the tour a couple of years back and then played him solely at FB. I think he may sneak in due to that though, as the alternative is Jones or Graham.

Still wondering idly if Toony has a surprise up his sleeve (other than Reed which has been leaked).

[Slick]

A little bit OT, but I know a number of Scottish cricket clubs are summer additions to rugby clubs:

My cricket club are planning a pre-season tour to Edinburgh (yes we are aware of the weather…) in April. We’ve sorted games on the Friday and Saturday, just trying to fill Sunday now.
We’re bringing a pretty strong side, albeit this will be the final day of tour so I can’t imagine we’ll be at 100%. We also have some “social” members coming along so can accommodate varying standards. We are also quite genuinely a decent bunch of blokes, and goes without saying it would be lucrative for any club’s bar.

Some of you may be involved with rugby clubs that have a cricket side, or know people that are, if that matches you then we can arrange passing on my contact details etc.

Who are you playing so far? I have contacts with Watsons cricket club

The University and then Carlton. If you’d be happy to pass on a number that would be really appreciated

Hi mate, they are very keen to see if they can fit you in. Have asked you to contact the Chairman (who I know) and the Director of Cricket by email and go from there. How do we do this?

[Tichtheid]

Glasgow thoughtfully noted Josh McKay’s qualification date on their website

The Christchurch-born flyer touched down in Glasgow in November 2021 after helping Canterbury to the semi-finals of the NPC

November ‘26, then.

He'll be 28/29 by then? I bloody hope we have at least one other established top class fullback before then (Patterson perhaps?)

I like Patterson and he seems to improve every time I watch him, I think he’s some way off starting for Edinburgh though and he 22 now. Goosen and Boff are both a fair distance in front of him.

On another subject I was reading that Ritchie may lose the captaincy. I don’t share the concerns others have had with him but if Toonie does then Finn is possibly the best player for the job, he’s one of a small handful of guaranteed starters and he always seems to get on well with referees, which is the main strike against Ritchie that people have.

[Paddington Bear]

Who are you playing so far? I have contacts with Watsons cricket club

The University and then Carlton. If you’d be happy to pass on a number that would be really appreciated

Hi mate, they are very keen to see if they can fit you in. Have asked you to contact the Chairman (who I know) and the Director of Cricket by email and go from there. How do we do this?

This is great news, thanks for following up

https://www.watsoniancricket.com/contact

Are their contact details on this page? If so I’ll email them direct from there

[Slick]

The University and then Carlton. If you’d be happy to pass on a number that would be really appreciated

Hi mate, they are very keen to see if they can fit you in. Have asked you to contact the Chairman (who I know) and the Director of Cricket by email and go from there. How do we do this?

This is great news, thanks for following up

https://www.watsoniancricket.com/contact

Are their contact details on this page? If so I’ll email them direct from there

Yup, John Reid and Andrew Chalmers. I’ve described you as a good friend, not a bloke off the internet….

Let me know how it goes

[Slick]

No Hamish Watson and 3 guys I’ve never heard of

[Big D]

Hepburn has been capped by England. Hurd is ex Scotland U20.

[Big D]

https://x.com/G_HMedia/status/1747245768585400744?s=20

Right time to move on from Harris and great to see Hutchinson in.

Think the back row selection is right too.

[SaintK]

Hepburn has been capped by England. Hurd is ex Scotland U20.

From their Premiership aappearances this season, both very average journeymen

[KingBlairhorn]

Cherry, Rae and Kebble didn't make it from the front row. Only three hookers picked is maybe a surprise. Pretty pleased with my pick out of Will Hurd even though I didn't suggest he would make the squad. Hepburn has completely caught me off-guard, I had no idea he qualified.

From the locks he has gone with Skinner as 5th lock which gives him an extra backrow too, which is sensible.

Backrow he has gone Bayliss over Watson - surprised by that. This might be part of plan to phase Watson out - at 32 he won't make the next WC.

Halfbacks as expected.

In the centres I am surprised to see Harris out and Hutchinson in. I presume that is, as others have suggested, because he can also play at FB.

Wings as expected.

Fullbacks, surprised to see Patterson in there but its maybe an experience pick more than anything else. Might get a bench spot against the weakest team (Wales?!).

[Biffer]

Hepburn has been capped by England. Hurd is ex Scotland U20.

From their Premiership aappearances this season, both very average journeymen

Given how short we are at tight head, I'll take a 24 year old journeyman who's been playing in the Premiership and Champions Cup recently.

Hepburn is an odd one though. 30 years old, previously capped for England and seems to be les in favour than he was a few years back for Exeter.

[Slick]

Cherry, Rae and Kebble didn't make it from the front row. Only three hookers picked is maybe a surprise. Pretty pleased with my pick out of Will Hurd even though I didn't suggest he would make the squad. Hepburn has completely caught me off-guard, I had no idea he qualified.

From the locks he has gone with Skinner as 5th lock which gives him an extra backrow too, which is sensible.

Backrow he has gone Bayliss over Watson - surprised by that. This might be part of plan to phase Watson out - at 32 he won't make the next WC.

Halfbacks as expected.

In the centres I am surprised to see Harris out and Hutchinson in. I presume that is, as others have suggested, because he can also play at FB.

Wings as expected.

Fullbacks, surprised to see Patterson in there but its maybe an experience pick more than anything else. Might get a bench spot against the weakest team (Wales?!).

Would be very interested to know what actually happened with Cherry at the WC. Plenty of journo's hinting at more to it.

Very surprised by Watson not being in the squad. I feel sorry for Harris, but it also feels like the team has moved on a bit.

A bit nonplussed by the randoms thrown in, shows a bit of weakness imo

[Jock42]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

[Jock42]

Would be very interested to know what actually happened with Cherry at the WC. Plenty of journo's hinting at more to it.

I have not seen anything, are they mentioning anything specific?

[Slick]

Would be very interested to know what actually happened with Cherry at the WC. Plenty of journo's hinting at more to it.

I have not seen anything, are they mentioning anything specific?

Not really, just stuff like “has he been forgiven” which is a strange thing to say about someone apparently falling down some stairs

[Slick]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

Agree with that first bit, just doesn’t sit well. At least I’d never heard of Jack Dempsey and he was from the other side of the world

[Big D]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

To go full Scottish, we are approaching "there's nae c**t else" for prop.

[SaintK]

Hepburn has been capped by England. Hurd is ex Scotland U20.

From their Premiership aappearances this season, both very average journeymen

Given how short we are at tight head, I'll take a 24 year old journeyman who's been playing in the Premiership and Champions Cup recently.

Hepburn is an odd one though. 30 years old, previously capped for England and seems to be les in favour than he was a few years back for Exeter.

Didn't realise Hurd was only 24 years old.......he looks about 50!!
Scott Sio has been the starting loosehead for Chiefs since he signed the season befeore last.

[KingBlairhorn]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

To go full Scottish, we are approaching "there's nae c**t else" for prop.

There are plenty, they are just mostly mediocre/shite:

TH: Zandbags, Nel, Hurd, D'Arcy Rae, Sebastian, Angus Williams, McCallum
LH: Schoeman, Bhatti, Hepburn, Hislop, Dell, McBeth, Grahamslaw
Both: Kebble, Walker

That's 7 tightheads, 7 looseheads and two who can play both sides - decent 'depth' on the face of it. The issue is there are only two of international class, one who was international class but is now almost 38 and the rest are journeyman or unproven.

Also, I really hope to see some seethe from English posters (on twitter, not the fine examples on this site) about our 'poach' of the fine Englishman Alec Hepburn, born in Australia.

[topofthemoon]

Ins and outs from the RWC selection plus suqad stats:

https://ontopofthemoon.com/2024/01/16/s ... -and-outs/

[KingBlairhorn]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

To go full Scottish, we are approaching "there's nae c**t else" for prop.

There are plenty, they are just mostly mediocre/shite:

TH: Zandbags, Nel, Hurd, D'Arcy Rae, Sebastian, Angus Williams, McCallum
LH: Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti, Hepburn, Hislop, Dell, McBeth, Grahamslaw
Both: Kebble, Walker

That's 7 tightheads, 7 looseheads and two who can play both sides - decent 'depth' on the face of it. The issue is there are only two of international class, one who was international class but is now almost 38 and the rest are journeyman or unproven.

Also, I really hope to see some seethe from English posters (on twitter, not the fine examples on this site) about our 'poach' of the fine Englishman Alec Hepburn, born in Australia.

Totally forgot Suz, probably our second best LH and probably still of international pedigree. So 3 international class props overall.

[Tichtheid]

If weedgie01 is around - have you heard anything about Paddy Harrison? He seems to have disappeared somewhat after a fairly bright start a season or two ago

[Big D]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

To go full Scottish, we are approaching "there's nae c**t else" for prop.

There are plenty, they are just mostly mediocre/shite:

TH: Zandbags, Nel, Hurd, D'Arcy Rae, Sebastian, Angus Williams, McCallum
LH: Schoeman, Bhatti, Hepburn, Hislop, Dell, McBeth, Grahamslaw
Both: Kebble, Walker

That's 7 tightheads, 7 looseheads and two who can play both sides - decent 'depth' on the face of it. The issue is there are only two of international class, one who was international class but is now almost 38 and the rest are journeyman or unproven.

Also, I really hope to see some seethe from English posters (on twitter, not the fine examples on this site) about our 'poach' of the fine Englishman Alec Hepburn, born in Australia.

That's the problem. There are SQ players who play prop, just very few who are currently interational level.

[Blackmac]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

[Tichtheid]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

[Jock42]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

I'd not be unhappy with that but would probably put Crosbie on the bench for his versatility. It's ironic that now Watson is back in form he's dropped but should have been behind Crosbie and Darge for a couple of seasons

[Tichtheid]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

I'd not be unhappy with that but would probably put Crosbie on the bench for his versatility. It's ironic that now Watson is back in form he's dropped but should have been behind Crosbie and Darge for a couple of seasons

Crosbie's versatility isn't really compromised by starting - he can still play whatever position suits across the backrow if and when Fagerson/Bayliss/Christie come on

On the squad, I do feel for Rory Sutherland, a normal Border laddie who has had a really bad run of luck in terms of injuries and moving clubs at the wrong time, even if it was for the right reasons.

There is no way he is not the third best loosehead we have available to us, propping just doesn't work like that

[Slick]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

Agree with Blackmac that he doesn’t deserve to drift away and I think his recent form gets him at least a squad place. Personally I’d have him starting still.

Agree with you that Darge has been the man at club level but it just hasn’t translated to international level quite so well as yet. He is definitely the future but I wouldn’t be jettisoning Watson yet.

We do tend to talk up our back rows a bit much I think, as a general point

[Tichtheid]

Feel sorry for Watson. Doesn't deserve to drift away and I'm really not convinced Darge is the better player, especially as he offers a lot less with ball in hand.

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

Agree with Blackmac that he doesn’t deserve to drift away and I think his recent form gets him at least a squad place. Personally I’d have him starting still.

Agree with you that Darge has been the man at club level but it just hasn’t translated to international level quite so well as yet. He is definitely the future but I wouldn’t be jettisoning Watson yet.

We do tend to talk up our back rows a bit much I think, as a general point

I think your last point is a hangover from the Calder/White/Jeffrey days and before that too - having said that over the last twenty years or so, I think our tight five didn't allow our backrow to flourish the way they should - in that time there have been maybe half a dozen tight five players who have been of genuine quality - Euan Murray, Nathan Hines .... in fact I'm struggling to get to the half dozen - there must be more than that but I can't think of them just now

[Big D]

Watson will understand the situation. He's received the benefit of the doubt before so will take missing out on a close call on the chin.

Can see why Townsend will want to look at younger players who are also in form. Watson is only a phone call away if needed.

[KingBlairhorn]

I think Darge has played very well at club level and he has played better than Watson since the Lions tour, so in that respect his selection is deserved. However, I haven't seen Darge play anything like as well as peak Watson at international level - this would be the time for him to do it, but he's coming back from another injury.

For me Ritchie is the first backrow on the team sheet, he is the ground hog and spoiler, having Ritchie, plus Dempsey and Crosbie to carry the ball up the guts of the opposition defence would be my choice.

Agree with Blackmac that he doesn’t deserve to drift away and I think his recent form gets him at least a squad place. Personally I’d have him starting still.

Agree with you that Darge has been the man at club level but it just hasn’t translated to international level quite so well as yet. He is definitely the future but I wouldn’t be jettisoning Watson yet.

We do tend to talk up our back rows a bit much I think, as a general point

I think your last point is a hangover from the Calder/White/Jeffrey days and before that too - having said that over the last twenty years or so, I think our tight five didn't allow our backrow to flourish the way they should - in that time there have been maybe half a dozen tight five players who have been of genuine quality - Euan Murray, Nathan Hines .... in fact I'm struggling to get to the half dozen - there must be more than that but I can't think of them just now

Calder/White/Jeffrey was the best part of 40 years ago and in the amateur era. I'm not sure I agree with you that many are looking at those guys and thinking we are a backrow producing powerhouse! I think the reality is, and I have been shot down for this before, we over-rate our players generally. We have lots of very good players but few who are truly elite. In the current team I would rate only Russell and (probably controversially) Zander as elite.

[Raggs]

Can't say I'm overly chuffed at a 30yo ex cap getting in the squad. It's not a good look getting guys like him and McConnochie in when they're not getting a cap. That said I know fuck all about him other than what's been posted so maybe he's fucking brilliant.

Good to see Hutch back in and a great opportunity for Paterson although I don't think I'd be too confident with him as a bench option just yet.

To go full Scottish, we are approaching "there's nae c**t else" for prop.

Sorry to intrude, but Scotland aren't alone there! If Hepburn was ever getting a call back for England, it would have been this 6N! Probably wasn't going to happen though.

[Tichtheid]

Agree with Blackmac that he doesn’t deserve to drift away and I think his recent form gets him at least a squad place. Personally I’d have him starting still.

Agree with you that Darge has been the man at club level but it just hasn’t translated to international level quite so well as yet. He is definitely the future but I wouldn’t be jettisoning Watson yet.

We do tend to talk up our back rows a bit much I think, as a general point

I think your last point is a hangover from the Calder/White/Jeffrey days and before that too - having said that over the last twenty years or so, I think our tight five didn't allow our backrow to flourish the way they should - in that time there have been maybe half a dozen tight five players who have been of genuine quality - Euan Murray, Nathan Hines .... in fact I'm struggling to get to the half dozen - there must be more than that but I can't think of them just now

Calder/White/Jeffrey was the best part of 40 years ago and in the amateur era. I'm not sure I agree with you that many are looking at those guys and thinking we are a backrow producing powerhouse! I think the reality is, and I have been shot down for this before, we over-rate our players generally. We have lots of very good players but few who are truly elite. In the current team I would rate only Russell and (probably controversially) Zander as elite.

I agree that we over rate our players, but we have traditionally produced good backrow players (and scrum halves), and they tend to be some of the best players in any team, so I was trying to suggest a historical reason for us assuming our players were up to scratch.

We’ve had a few over the years to keep the assumption going, Simon Taylor and Jason White being two

[KingBlairhorn]

I think your last point is a hangover from the Calder/White/Jeffrey days and before that too - having said that over the last twenty years or so, I think our tight five didn't allow our backrow to flourish the way they should - in that time there have been maybe half a dozen tight five players who have been of genuine quality - Euan Murray, Nathan Hines .... in fact I'm struggling to get to the half dozen - there must be more than that but I can't think of them just now

Calder/White/Jeffrey was the best part of 40 years ago and in the amateur era. I'm not sure I agree with you that many are looking at those guys and thinking we are a backrow producing powerhouse! I think the reality is, and I have been shot down for this before, we over-rate our players generally. We have lots of very good players but few who are truly elite. In the current team I would rate only Russell and (probably controversially) Zander as elite.

I agree that we over rate our players, but we have traditionally produced good backrow players (and scrum halves), and they tend to be some of the best players in any team, so I was trying to suggest a historical reason for us assuming our players were up to scratch.

We’ve had a few over the years to keep the assumption going, Simon Taylor and Jason White being two

We have had 3 Lions selected backrows since the 80s - Wainright, Taylor and Watson, 4 if we include Jeffrey in 89. I haven't checked but I would imagine that is by some distance the lowest of the Lions nations in the 3 backrow positions both individually and cumulatively. Again, I haven't checked but I would guess we have had more props (Fagerson, Murray, Sutherland, Smith, Wright, Burnell), locks (Cronin, Gray, Weir, Hines) , scrumhalfs (Blair, Cuister, Armstrong, Nicol, Price) and wings (Stanger, Seymour, Duhan, Maitland) than backrows in that period.

There is an argument (that I tend to agree with) that Lions selection isn't a great measure of a player at least in the last few tours, however if we want a proxy for how our players are viewed outside Scotland its a pretty good one.

[Tichtheid]

Calder/White/Jeffrey was the best part of 40 years ago and in the amateur era. I'm not sure I agree with you that many are looking at those guys and thinking we are a backrow producing powerhouse! I think the reality is, and I have been shot down for this before, we over-rate our players generally. We have lots of very good players but few who are truly elite. In the current team I would rate only Russell and (probably controversially) Zander as elite.

I agree that we over rate our players, but we have traditionally produced good backrow players (and scrum halves), and they tend to be some of the best players in any team, so I was trying to suggest a historical reason for us assuming our players were up to scratch.

We’ve had a few over the years to keep the assumption going, Simon Taylor and Jason White being two

We have had 3 Lions selected backrows since the 80s - Wainright, Taylor and Watson, 4 if we include Jeffrey in 89. I haven't checked but I would imagine that is by some distance the lowest of the Lions nations in the 3 backrow positions both individually and cumulatively. Again, I haven't checked but I would guess we have had more props (Fagerson, Murray, Sutherland, Smith, Wright, Burnell), locks (Cronin, Gray, Weir, Hines) , scrumhalfs (Blair, Cuister, Armstrong, Nicol, Price) and wings (Stanger, Seymour, Duhan, Maitland) than backrows in that period.

There is an argument (that I tend to agree with) that Lions selection isn't a great measure of a player at least in the last few tours, however if we want a proxy for how our players are viewed outside Scotland its a pretty good one.

I think we’re in agreement but perhaps looking at it from slightly different angles.

Btw, looking up Jason White’s bio on Wiki I see he was named in the New Zealand Herald’s team of the year for 2006 and also that he was a replacement for Richard Hill on the 2005 Lions tour - I’d certainly argue the case that he should have been there from the start.

[Biffer]

Calder/White/Jeffrey was the best part of 40 years ago and in the amateur era. I'm not sure I agree with you that many are looking at those guys and thinking we are a backrow producing powerhouse! I think the reality is, and I have been shot down for this before, we over-rate our players generally. We have lots of very good players but few who are truly elite. In the current team I would rate only Russell and (probably controversially) Zander as elite.

I agree that we over rate our players, but we have traditionally produced good backrow players (and scrum halves), and they tend to be some of the best players in any team, so I was trying to suggest a historical reason for us assuming our players were up to scratch.

We’ve had a few over the years to keep the assumption going, Simon Taylor and Jason White being two

We have had 3 Lions selected backrows since the 80s - Wainright, Taylor and Watson, 4 if we include Jeffrey in 89. I haven't checked but I would imagine that is by some distance the lowest of the Lions nations in the 3 backrow positions both individually and cumulatively. Again, I haven't checked but I would guess we have had more props (Fagerson, Murray, Sutherland, Smith, Wright, Burnell), locks (Cronin, Gray, Weir, Hines) , scrumhalfs (Blair, Cuister, Armstrong, Nicol, Price) and wings (Stanger, Seymour, Duhan, Maitland) than backrows in that period.

There is an argument (that I tend to agree with) that Lions selection isn't a great measure of a player at least in the last few tours, however if we want a proxy for how our players are viewed outside Scotland its a pretty good one.

If you're including Jeffrey in 89, then it's probably best to include Finlay Calder given he captained the Lions that tour! So that's 6 (Calder, White, Jeffrey, Wainwright, Taylor, Watson). Which is more than any other position apart from prop, which it's the same as.

[KingBlairhorn]

I agree that we over rate our players, but we have traditionally produced good backrow players (and scrum halves), and they tend to be some of the best players in any team, so I was trying to suggest a historical reason for us assuming our players were up to scratch.

We’ve had a few over the years to keep the assumption going, Simon Taylor and Jason White being two

We have had 3 Lions selected backrows since the 80s - Wainright, Taylor and Watson, 4 if we include Jeffrey in 89. I haven't checked but I would imagine that is by some distance the lowest of the Lions nations in the 3 backrow positions both individually and cumulatively. Again, I haven't checked but I would guess we have had more props (Fagerson, Murray, Sutherland, Smith, Wright, Burnell), locks (Cronin, Gray, Weir, Hines) , scrumhalfs (Blair, Cuister, Armstrong, Nicol, Price) and wings (Stanger, Seymour, Duhan, Maitland) than backrows in that period.

There is an argument (that I tend to agree with) that Lions selection isn't a great measure of a player at least in the last few tours, however if we want a proxy for how our players are viewed outside Scotland its a pretty good one.

If you're including Jeffrey in 89, then it's probably best to include Finlay Calder given he captained the Lions that tour! So that's 6 (Calder, White, Jeffrey, Wainwright, Taylor, Watson). Which is more than any other position apart from prop, which it's the same as.

Haha, fair cop on Calder.

To be clear those lists in brackets are just off the top of my head, not exclusive. There will be others in all those positions (Alan Dell winning a cap at prop springs to mind!)

[Yr Alban]

I see that both Fin Smith and Roebuck are in the England squad - and Fraser Dingwall too. I guess Dingwall’s policy of waiting forever for an England call has finally paid off.

[Margin__Walker]

I see that both Fin Smith and Roebuck are in the England squad - and Fraser Dingwall too. I guess Dingwall’s policy of waiting forever for an England call has finally paid off.

It's actually Dingwall's 10th (!) Squad inclusion. It's the cap that's proving elusive.

[Slick]

Interesting BBC Scottish Rugby Pod with Toony.

Seemed to be saying that Ritchie is playing for a place this weekend let alone the captaincy. Was definitely a bit of edge from him about it all