The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[topofthemoon]

It is difficult to be critical of Turner or others when the ref had obviously decided that Scotland were committing penalties when we obviously weren't or at least we weren't doing anything different to Reffell or Wainright at the breakdown! I wouldn't be too harsh on them, next week is a different ref and it could all be completely different. France are a different kettle of fish to Wales and we need to pick a team that will match their huge front 5 and compete against the likes of Adlritt et al. We will need our big guys to front up and we need experience in the pack for this one. I dont think we got our back row mix right against Wales. Crosbie I liked and thought he stood up and carried well but neither Fagerson nor Ritchie did what they were chosen to do. I hope Dempsey is fully fit and I would stat him and either Darge or Christie for 7 spot. Otherwise GC for Gray and hopefully Nel on the bench and I would go again. Backs played well until they decided the game was won and stopped aggressive defence.

It's the same players though. Even crediting Turner as unlucky for the 1st pen his actions for the second could only lead to an obvious maul collapse. His TH colleague gave away an unnecessary penalty before that when we were defending ok and threatening a turnover at that ruck.

One of the noticeable differences was Wainwright and especially Reffell were at the rucks way quicker than their Scottish counterparts. Refs often let those arriving 1st away with more (see attackers regularly sealing off rucks as an example).

Thought Hepburn and EM-M did well when they came on.

That's not just unlucky it was a blatantly wrong decision by the ref. Penalised for diving over and slowing the ball when he was, in fact, dragged over by Dee (who also entered the ruck at a 90 degree angle).

Came immediately after the previous ruck when Matt Fagerson was cleared out by a side entry from Botham.

[Big D]

I disagree, Turner was a fucking idiot and deserves to be called that. His yellow card wasn’t anything to do with ref interpretation, in fact the ref fucked up in a way that decided the outcome. He should have awarded a penalty try for that, which it turns out would have won the game for Wales.

Penalty try is awarded when foul play prevents a try being scored (or scored in a more advantageous position). Try was scored so it was 100% the correct decision by the ref.

There is also the possibility that if he had awarded a PT, he might have been less inclined to send Turner to the bin. Which is what kick-started the Wales revival.

Sin bin must follow a PT where the player is identified IIRC.

[Yr Alban]

Penalty try is awarded when foul play prevents a try being scored (or scored in a more advantageous position). Try was scored so it was 100% the correct decision by the ref.

There is also the possibility that if he had awarded a PT, he might have been less inclined to send Turner to the bin. Which is what kick-started the Wales revival.

Sin bin must follow a PT where the player is identified IIRC.

Is that right? Fair enough. I thought it was discretionary.

[Yr Alban]

I see that Fin Smith and Fraser Dingwall both got England caps yesterday. I’m not bitter, but I hope they both play at Murrayfield, and I hope we fucking smash them.

[SomersetJock]

On my way home from Cardiff having had the biggest rollercoaster ride of emotions imaginable.

Spent all day in Cardiff protesting with Wales fans predictions that there was no way we were going to batter them as we just don’t do that. Even when we went 27-0 up I didn’t relax and was protesting to my Welsh mate that we still didn’t have the win in the bag.

Then the collapse started to unfold in front of my eyes.

For me there was a couple of factors involved. First was losing Richie Gray, 2nd was George Turner bumping his gums at the referee. Really is time that was stamped out.

Nothing seemed to go our way after that, Turner himself being the first victim of what was never a penalty before compounding the problem with a worse one by getting binned for a definite penalty which was an act of stupidity only bettered in the match by Josh Adams throwing the ball away and gifting us 3 points !

Despite the win I left the stadium feeling deflated, the Wales fans on the other hand were celebrating their “heroic defeat”, here’s hoping they now get into the habit of experiencing it like we did for years !

Having watched it again this morning I’m less deflated, several of the problems are very fixable, GG will improve the maul defence and Finns comments were refreshing and will hopefully get a few 4R5E5 kicked hard in training this week. Also got reminded how privileged I was to be able to watch the match live without Jiffy squealing like an annoying piglet while looking for imaginary crossing with his one eye (fair play to Nigel for shutting him down on that one)

[Yr Alban]

On my way home from Cardiff having had the biggest rollercoaster ride of emotions imaginable.

Spent all day in Cardiff protesting with Wales fans predictions that there was no way we were going to batter them as we just don’t do that. Even when we went 27-0 up I didn’t relax and was protesting to my Welsh mate that we still didn’t have the win in the bag.

Then the collapse started to unfold in front of my eyes.

For me there was a couple of factors involved. First was losing Richie Gray, 2nd was George Turner bumping his gums at the referee. Really is time that was stamped out.

Nothing seemed to go our way after that, Turner himself being the first victim of what was never a penalty before compounding the problem with a worse one by getting binned for a definite penalty which was an act of stupidity only bettered in the match by Josh Adams throwing the ball away and gifting us 3 points !

Despite the win I left the stadium feeling deflated, the Wales fans on the other hand were celebrating their “heroic defeat”, here’s hoping they now get into the habit of experiencing it like we did for years !

Having watched it again this morning I’m less deflated, several of the problems are very fixable, GG will improve the maul defence and Finns comments were refreshing and will hopefully get a few 4R5E5 kicked hard in training this week. Also got reminded how privileged I was to be able to watch the match live without Jiffy squealing like an annoying piglet while looking for imaginary crossing with his one eye (fair play to Nigel for shutting him down on that one)

For anyone still feeling down:

For ages we couldn’t buy a win against Wales (I should bloody know, I moved here in 2008 and we didn’t beat them between then and 2017!)
Then we beat them in 2017, but we had still never beaten them with Gatland in charge (Howley was caretaker that year).
Then we beat them away from home in 2020, but Gatland still wasn’t in charge and it wasn’t played in Cardiff (or in front of fans).
Then we beat them with Gatland in charge last year, but we still hadn’t won in Cardiff.
Yesterday we beat them in Cardiff, and with Gatland in charge. And in front of a full crowd and with the roof closed to boot.

So we have thrown off our Wales, Cardiff and Gatland hoodoos. As Toony has said previously, people said we hadn’t won at the Stade de France and Twickenham since forever, until we did.

[topofthemoon]

Win percentage for Scotland in matches v Tier 1 nations decided by less than a converted try:

2017 - 2024:
59.1% (13/22 - 1 draw);

2010 - 2017:
36.0% (9/25 - 0 draws).

Same stat but only taking Six Nations' matches into account:

2017 - 2024:
75.0% (8/12 - 1 draw);

2010 - 2017:
25.0% (3/12 - 0 draws).

(75 total matches played in each period analysed)

[topofthemoon]

In 138 years of playing away against Wales, the only time Scotland have scored more than 27 points was the 18-34 win in Cardiff in 1982.

Yesterday was the first time Scotland scored more than 2 tries away v Wales since 1986 (when they also scored 3 but lost). The only occasions they have scored more tries away to Wales were in 1982 (5 tries) and 1925 (6 tries).

[Big D]

Well new game week. There seems to be some positive noises about Crosbie being available later in the Championship with Gray pretty much confirmed as out.

I'd go with:
Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Cummings
Gilchrist
Fagerson
Christie
Dempsey

White
Finn
Duhan
Huwipulotu
Steyn
Rowe - If he plays well next week then he'd be my Graham replacement when King Blairhorn is back.

Matthews
Millar-Mills
Hepburn
Young
Ritchie/Bayliss
Horne
Healy
Redpath

[S/Lt_Phillips]

On my way home from Cardiff having had the biggest rollercoaster ride of emotions imaginable.

Spent all day in Cardiff protesting with Wales fans predictions that there was no way we were going to batter them as we just don’t do that. Even when we went 27-0 up I didn’t relax and was protesting to my Welsh mate that we still didn’t have the win in the bag.

Then the collapse started to unfold in front of my eyes.

For me there was a couple of factors involved. First was losing Richie Gray, 2nd was George Turner bumping his gums at the referee. Really is time that was stamped out.

Nothing seemed to go our way after that, Turner himself being the first victim of what was never a penalty before compounding the problem with a worse one by getting binned for a definite penalty which was an act of stupidity only bettered in the match by Josh Adams throwing the ball away and gifting us 3 points !

Despite the win I left the stadium feeling deflated, the Wales fans on the other hand were celebrating their “heroic defeat”, here’s hoping they now get into the habit of experiencing it like we did for years !

Having watched it again this morning I’m less deflated, several of the problems are very fixable, GG will improve the maul defence and Finns comments were refreshing and will hopefully get a few 4R5E5 kicked hard in training this week. Also got reminded how privileged I was to be able to watch the match live without Jiffy squealing like an annoying piglet while looking for imaginary crossing with his one eye (fair play to Nigel for shutting him down on that one)

For anyone still feeling down:

For ages we couldn’t buy a win against Wales (I should bloody know, I moved here in 2008 and we didn’t beat them between then and 2017!)
Then we beat them in 2017, but we had still never beaten them with Gatland in charge (Howley was caretaker that year).
Then we beat them away from home in 2020, but Gatland still wasn’t in charge and it wasn’t played in Cardiff (or in front of fans).
Then we beat them with Gatland in charge last year, but we still hadn’t won in Cardiff.
Yesterday we beat them in Cardiff, and with Gatland in charge. And in front of a full crowd and with the roof closed to boot.

So we have thrown off our Wales, Cardiff and Gatland hoodoos. As Toony has said previously, people said we hadn’t won at the Stade de France and Twickenham since forever, until we did.

I'm still feeling a bit annoyed that we didn't get the BP try at the end, but I keep reminding myself that, despite the meltdown in the second half, Scotland won. Away in Cardiff. Against Gatland. And despite Wales getting an easy ride from the ref, and playing against 14 for half of the second half, they still couldn't beat us.

Onwards & upwards!

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Well new game week. There seems to be some positive noises about Crosbie being available later in the Championship with Gray pretty much confirmed as out.

I'd go with:
Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Cummings
Gilchrist
Fagerson
Christie
Dempsey

White
Finn
Duhan
Huwipulotu
Steyn
Rowe - If he plays well next week then he'd be my Graham replacement when King Blairhorn is back.

Matthews
Millar-Mills
Hepburn
Young
Ritchie/Bayliss
Horne
Healy
Redpath

France likely to go 6/2 in the replacements, so we will too, no? In which case you'd have another second-row - preferably one that can play back row, so likely Skinner?

[clydecloggie]

It seems likely that Turner and Skinner were singled out in Finn's post-match interview - should they face the consequence to really drive it home?

I'd go

Schoeman - Ashman - Z Fagerson
Gilchrist - Cummings
M Fagerson - Dempsey - Darge
White - Russell
Huwipolotou
McMerwe - the Rowitzer - Steyn

If Rowe is injured - Hutchinson at 15. Also Ritchie for M Fagerson a definite option.

5/3 split on the bench with Mathews, Hepburn, Millar-Mills, Young, Christie, Horne, Redpath, Hutchinson

[Tichtheid]

It seems likely that Turner and Skinner were singled out in Finn's post-match interview - should they face the consequence to really drive it home?

I'd go

Schoeman - Ashman - Z Fagerson
Gilchrist - Cummings
M Fagerson - Dempsey - Darge
White - Russell
Huwipolotou
McMerwe - the Rowitzer - Steyn

If Rowe is injured - Hutchinson at 15. Also Ritchie for M Fagerson a definite option.

5/3 split on the bench with Mathews, Hepburn, Millar-Mills, Young, Christie, Horne, Redpath, Hutchinson

The problem is, imo, the other two just don't carry like Turner and nor do they hit in the tackle like Turner - there were at least two occasions where Turner's tackling stopped their momentum dead. Ashman's darts are very flaky. I'd love for us to have the depth to have that kind of red-hot competition, but outside of the back row and possibly the centres we just don't have it.

[Biffer]

It seems likely that Turner and Skinner were singled out in Finn's post-match interview - should they face the consequence to really drive it home?

I'd go

Schoeman - Ashman - Z Fagerson
Gilchrist - Cummings
M Fagerson - Dempsey - Darge
White - Russell
Huwipolotou
McMerwe - the Rowitzer - Steyn

If Rowe is injured - Hutchinson at 15. Also Ritchie for M Fagerson a definite option.

5/3 split on the bench with Mathews, Hepburn, Millar-Mills, Young, Christie, Horne, Redpath, Hutchinson

The problem is, imo, the other two just don't carry like Turner and nor do they hit in the tackle like Turner - there were at least two occasions where Turner's tackling stopped their momentum dead. Ashman's darts are very flaky. I'd love for us to have the depth to have that kind of red-hot competition, but outside of the back row and possibly the centres we just don't have it.

It's hte balance between those positives and the likelihood of him having five minutes where his brain turns to dust and he gives critical penalties away and puts the whole team under pressure.

[Big D]

Well new game week. There seems to be some positive noises about Crosbie being available later in the Championship with Gray pretty much confirmed as out.

I'd go with:
Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Cummings
Gilchrist
Fagerson
Christie
Dempsey

White
Finn
Duhan
Huwipulotu
Steyn
Rowe - If he plays well next week then he'd be my Graham replacement when King Blairhorn is back.

Matthews
Millar-Mills
Hepburn
Young
Ritchie/Bayliss
Horne
Healy
Redpath

France likely to go 6/2 in the replacements, so we will too, no? In which case you'd have another second-row - preferably one that can play back row, so likely Skinner?

After giving away four penalties, even though one was harsh I think there has to be consequences for Skinner. I also don't think without Kinghorn that the backs we have available really suits a 6/2 as Healy needs to be one of the two.

[Big D]

It seems likely that Turner and Skinner were singled out in Finn's post-match interview - should they face the consequence to really drive it home?

I'd go

Schoeman - Ashman - Z Fagerson
Gilchrist - Cummings
M Fagerson - Dempsey - Darge
White - Russell
Huwipolotou
McMerwe - the Rowitzer - Steyn

If Rowe is injured - Hutchinson at 15. Also Ritchie for M Fagerson a definite option.

5/3 split on the bench with Mathews, Hepburn, Millar-Mills, Young, Christie, Horne, Redpath, Hutchinson

The problem is, imo, the other two just don't carry like Turner and nor do they hit in the tackle like Turner - there were at least two occasions where Turner's tackling stopped their momentum dead. Ashman's darts are very flaky. I'd love for us to have the depth to have that kind of red-hot competition, but outside of the back row and possibly the centres we just don't have it.

I agree. Turner led the team in dominant tackles, is the better scrummager and better arrows. Starting Ashman would be a massive gamble.

[Big D]

Saw a stat that said Wales won all their line outs when we didn't compete and half their line outs when we did. No idea why we stopped competing in the second half. We competed at 8 of 9 in 1st half and 2 of 6 in second.

[inactionman]

Saw a stat that said Wales won all their line outs when we didn't compete and half their line outs when we did. No idea why we stopped competing in the second half. We competed at 8 of 9 in 1st half and 2 of 6 in second.

The Welsh hooker Elias's throwing was poor in the first half and he was hooked at half-time, which seem to shore the Welsh lineout up a bit.

[I like neeps]

Crosbie and Richie Gray will miss the six nations with injuries from the weekend. Real shame for Crosbie especially.

[Begbie]

Crosbie and Gray out for the rest of the tournament.

[Yr Alban]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

[Slick]

Watson seems to have forgotten about in all this, not a bad chap to have in the wings

[Jock42]

Watson seems to have forgotten about in all this, not a bad chap to have in the wings

Absolutely. Bradbury too has been playing well from what I've read.

[Big D]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

I do think we miss a physical 6.

[Jock42]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

I do think we miss a physical 6.

A Ritchie can fill that gap can't he? I've not seen much of him, only going by what I've read.

[inactionman]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

I do think we miss a physical 6.

Speaking as an occasional and recent Edinburgh supporter, I was always surprised Bradbury seagulled so much - he looked a big powerful unit but never really appeared in the tight.

Of course, Edinburgh had Mata trucking it up at that time, but still thought Bradbury's physicality was a bit wasted.

[KingBlairhorn]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

I do think we miss a physical 6.

Speaking as an occasional and recent Edinburgh supporter, I was always surprised Bradbury seagulled so much - he looked a big powerful unit but never really appeared in the tight.

Of course, Edinburgh had Mata trucking it up at that time, but still thought Bradbury's physicality was a bit wasted.

That's always been the criticism. Despite seemingly having all the physical tools, he is not actually a particularly physical player, and he certainly isn't a 'nasty' player of the type needed. I can't particularly think of many times he has run over the top of people like Mata does, or guys like CdP did before him in the Edinburgh 8 jersey. He's big, fast, powerful and has decent hands as well as doing other bits and bobs well (jumps well in the lineout and good over the ball), but somehow has never put it all together to be the worldy of a player it seems he could be.

[KingBlairhorn]

Bugger. It was pretty clear that Gray was going to be out, but the news about Crosbie seemed more positive up until now.

TBH we have plenty of talent in the back row to choose from. What we lack is hard nasty bastards, as we’ve said many times, and Crosbie fits that bill.

I do think we miss a physical 6.

A Ritchie can fill that gap can't he? I've not seen much of him, only going by what I've read.

I think Richie is much better as a 6 than a 7. He's a brilliant spoiler and it allows him to pick when to compete at rucks which he does very successfully for Edinburgh.

[Tichtheid]

Ok I made a right pig's ear of the quoting, so I've deleted all of that - this is in response to the point that Bradbury doesn't use his power


His highlights reel is full of big hits on both sides of the ball. He's continued that style with Bristol.

I think he gets compared a bit unfavourably with Mata, of course Big Bill is an outstanding player, but when they both played Mata would always be in the 8 shirt, meaning that he was the one would would receive any restarts and truck them up, so he stood out even more.

The criticism of Bradbury was never that he didn't use his power, it was that his work-rate wasn't as high as the likes of Matt Fagerson and that he drifted out of games.
The talk at the time was that Toonie really favoured high work-rate.

We've seen Townsend give players a second chance, Matt Scott and Mark Bennett are two that spring to mind, I hope Bradbury's international career isn't over

[Tichtheid]

I do think we miss a physical 6.

A Ritchie can fill that gap can't he? I've not seen much of him, only going by what I've read.

I think Richie is much better as a 6 than a 7. He's a brilliant spoiler and it allows him to pick when to compete at rucks which he does very successfully for Edinburgh.

I assumed Jock meant A Christie - I imagine he's seen Ritchie playing a fair bit

[Slick]

Ok I made a right pig's ear of the quoting, so I've deleted all of that - this is in response to the point that Bradbury doesn't use his power


His highlights reel is full of big hits on both sides of the ball. He's continued that style with Bristol.

I think he gets compared a bit unfavourably with Mata, of course Big Bill is an outstanding player, but when they both played Mata would always be in the 8 shirt, meaning that he was the one would would receive any restarts and truck them up, so he stood out even more.

The criticism of Bradbury was never that he didn't use his power, it was that his work-rate wasn't as high as the likes of Matt Fagerson and that he drifted out of games.
The talk at the time was that Toonie really favoured high work-rate.

We've seen Townsend give players a second chance, Matt Scott and Mark Bennett are two that spring to mind, I hope Bradbury's international career isn't over

I e said before on this thread that he seems to be a player that needs to be out of his comfort zone so always thought the move down south would do him good. Applying that same logic, now he has had a couple of years out of the Scotland reckoning and knows he’s not going to be in and around the squad as a matter of course, maybe it’s time to give him another shot

[Jock42]

A Ritchie can fill that gap can't he? I've not seen much of him, only going by what I've read.

I think Richie is much better as a 6 than a 7. He's a brilliant spoiler and it allows him to pick when to compete at rucks which he does very successfully for Edinburgh.

I assumed Jock meant A Christie - I imagine he's seen Ritchie playing a fair bit

Haha aye, I appreciate his post nonetheless.

[KingBlairhorn]

Ok I made a right pig's ear of the quoting, so I've deleted all of that - this is in response to the point that Bradbury doesn't use his power


His highlights reel is full of big hits on both sides of the ball. He's continued that style with Bristol.

I think he gets compared a bit unfavourably with Mata, of course Big Bill is an outstanding player, but when they both played Mata would always be in the 8 shirt, meaning that he was the one would would receive any restarts and truck them up, so he stood out even more.

The criticism of Bradbury was never that he didn't use his power, it was that his work-rate wasn't as high as the likes of Matt Fagerson and that he drifted out of games.
The talk at the time was that Toonie really favoured high work-rate.

We've seen Townsend give players a second chance, Matt Scott and Mark Bennett are two that spring to mind, I hope Bradbury's international career isn't over

I don't think I agree that he hasn't been criticised for his use of power. My recollection is of lots of criticism that he doesn't dominate contact both in offence and defence; I agree he has also been criticised for his workrate though. He's about 10kg heavier than someone like Doris for Ireland, but Doris is a much more aggressive user of his power than Bradbury, at least IMO. I must admit I have seen him a grand total of zero times since his move down south though so I heavily temper my opinion on the basis it is almost 2 seasons out of date now.

Overall I agree with the sentiment of I think all the posters which is he deserves another chance to show what he's about.

[Big D]

Was on another board, and the topic of LHPs came up regarding Sutherland and maybe Dell leaving.

We've cycled through LHs without any really sticking and making a matchday squad place their own season after season, and some have completely fallen away after purple patches. These have ranged from 3 games (Marfo) to 18 months to 2 years (Grant). Lots with 20-35 caps, but I can't think of any LH with more than 41 (Reid) since Chunk. Where as there has been Murray (mostly at similar time to Chunk, Nel and Fagerson with over 60 caps on the TH side then Berghan with 30odd.

Schoeman is already only 2 shy of Sutherland (27v29).

[Yr Alban]

Have just seen some stats from the Wales game which confirmed that Scotland had 75% possession in the last 10 minutes. Confirming my conviction that we weren’t hanging on at the end, and Wales didn’t do anything much after we went back to 15 v 15.

[Tichtheid]

Have just seen some stats from the Wales game which confirmed that Scotland had 75% possession in the last 10 minutes. Confirming my conviction that we weren’t hanging on at the end, and Wales didn’t do anything much after we went back to 15 v 15.

Absolutely this, and why some of them (Welsh players) were saying afterwards that they wanted the game to go on another 5 minutes is a bit of a laugh, we would probably have gotten that BP if it had.

It was our maul defence that let us down very badly, even with that run of 14 penalties in a row against us, we should have keep them out.

[Jock42]

Bit of Jason White for you.

[Tichtheid]

I've said a few times that if only we had the backs we have now with the packs we had back then...

If my aunty had baws, I know, but in the professional era we've never had a complete team - yet.

[weegie01]

Bit of Jason White for you.

And yet look how comparatively low he was hitting compared to today.

[Yr Alban]

I've said a few times that if only we had the backs we have now with the packs we had back then...

If my aunty had baws, I know, but in the professional era we've never had a complete team - yet.

In terms of recent era players I wish we had in our team now, Jason White is definitely in the top three.