Six Nations Round 2: England vs. Wales

[sockwithaticket]

When:
10/02/24
16:45

Where:


Who:

[SaintK]

Rumour has it that the England match day squad will be unchanged. That'll be the first time since 2019 if true!!!!

[Ovals]

Rumour has it that the England match day squad will be unchanged. That'll be the first time since 2019 if true!!!!

Squad or team ?

Thought Genge was likely to make the bench.

[SaintK]

Rumour has it that the England match day squad will be unchanged. That'll be the first time since 2019 if true!!!!

Squad or team ?

Thought Genge was likely to make the bench.

Good point!!
Team I think

[sockwithaticket]

I've got fingers crossed that we ditch Daly for someone younger or better.

[Ovals]

I've got fingers crossed that we ditch Daly for someone younger or better.

Team has been annnounced

Just the one change to the 23 - Genge relaces Obano on the bench.

[Hal Jordan]

I've got fingers crossed that we ditch Daly for someone younger or better.

No chance, we need to flog a past the sell by date winger into the ground. The Cueto Clause, if you will.

[Raggs]

Shame about Daly, would have been nice to see Martin back. Overall though, with what we have I'm happy enough with that. Be interesting to see how we go in attack this game.

[el capitan]

The battle to decide 4th and 5th place.

[SaintK]

Shame about Daly, would have been nice to see Martin back. Overall though, with what we have I'm happy enough with that. Be interesting to see how we go in attack this game.

Evidently still in rehab. Should be available for the next match

[Ovals]

Shame about Daly, would have been nice to see Martin back. Overall though, with what we have I'm happy enough with that. Be interesting to see how we go in attack this game.

Evidently still in rehab. Should be available for the next match

As should Lawrence

[ASMO]

The battle to decide 4th and 5th place.

Otherwise known as a

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It can't have been easy to find a XV with so little pace, you'd almost pick some by accident if one wasn't very careful

[Ovals]

It can't have been easy to find a XV with so little pace, you'd almost pick some by accident if one wasn't very careful

I reckon Mitchell is our fastest Back.

[Oxbow]

Freeman has a fair bit of pace once he gets going. He's not Radwan quick, but he's not slow either.

[JM2K6]

Yes, Freeman is very sharp. Easily in the faster 50% of wings in the country. It's not a concern at all I reckon.

The point in general still stands, though.

[Sinkers]

Shame Marcus is injured or we might have had two old boys from our club on the pitch in him and Archie Griffin.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

[SaintK]

England by 12

[inactionman]

I'd hope England by a more than a score.

Wales have a nasty habit of spoiling things though.

[Raggs]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

Get Lawrence back in and that's a bit of pace back. Daly out and IFW in adds some proper pace and hardwork too. Marcus is rapid too, but I'm less worried about my 10 being super rapid, doesn't hurt on support lines though.

[ASMO]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

Get Lawrence back in and that's a bit of pace back. Daly out and IFW in adds some proper pace and hardwork too. Marcus is rapid too, but I'm less worried about my 10 being super rapid, doesn't hurt on support lines though.

It adds another threat the defence have to be aware of therefore can create space and opportunity for those on the outside. Farrell and Ford are both pedestrian.

[Raggs]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

Get Lawrence back in and that's a bit of pace back. Daly out and IFW in adds some proper pace and hardwork too. Marcus is rapid too, but I'm less worried about my 10 being super rapid, doesn't hurt on support lines though.

It adds another threat the defence have to be aware of therefore can create space and opportunity for those on the outside. Farrell and Ford are both pedestrian.

Farrell has some pace I reckon, he just doesn't use it much. Ford too, he's just often too busy putting others in holes now.

Farrell showing some straight line wheels in the 77th minute.

That's not to say I want him back in the lineup, just that he was no plodder.

[Ovals]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

Get Lawrence back in and that's a bit of pace back. Daly out and IFW in adds some proper pace and hardwork too. Marcus is rapid too, but I'm less worried about my 10 being super rapid, doesn't hurt on support lines though.

It adds another threat the defence have to be aware of therefore can create space and opportunity for those on the outside. Farrell and Ford are both pedestrian.

Especially if you also have a rapid 9 like Mitchell. Fin Smith is pretty quick.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Freeman has decent pace once he gets going, footwork and acceleration aren't great, he's okay for a test winger, but okay isn't much when it comes to test level. I've tended to think he's an interesting option at 13 far more than wing, but if he is staying wide it'd still make more sense to pick more speed inside him.

This England side needs to rely on playing rugby well, reading the game well, decision making, high accuracy in execution (or a low error rate), and that's possible, it's also much harder, and history says if they mange it it'd be more an aberration than an as expected. Perhaps, one hopes, they'll go on to establish a series of fine displays and make it the expected, but if they don't we're just dicking about wasting time with this selection.

Get Lawrence back in and that's a bit of pace back. Daly out and IFW in adds some proper pace and hardwork too. Marcus is rapid too, but I'm less worried about my 10 being super rapid, doesn't hurt on support lines though.

Having pace like Smith also makes it harder for the defending centres to push out, you just need to keep an eye on who's covering on the inside and how much ground you're leaving them to cover. And that's some tiny fraction of a second that goes to the attack, and that's what you're looking for (absent of huge setpiece dominance and people just flat out missing tackles which shouldn't happen). Okay there's something of a solution in just blitzing but that's not a thinking play, can be exploited, and you've got to be resourced or it's not simply unthinking but ballsy to opt for a scramble in defence, less ballsy if you're up against the lack of pace England present mind.

SA were very interesting, might still be, because their scramble was still so structured if the blitz was exposed, just a series of fallback options, maybe we start to get something like that even if Saturday wasn't a good start. So far we're getting the go for it aspect, but no detail on the scramble side, we just get narrow and pummelled

Lawrence looks okay at test level thus far and it'd be an improvement to have him back. Just I'm not sold okay is good enough, could be he's still finding his feet and has more to come, could be like someone like Laumape he's just not quite at the races at the highest level, and it could be okay is the best we presently have to offer

[sockwithaticket]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

[Ovals]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Yeah - it's the same across the park. Guys like Marler have severe limitations but there just isn't an obvious better option atm. But, given our lack of pace - you'd think we could achieve a better balance of pros and cons - in the backline - we do have some decent options outside of the centre pairing.

[Hal Jordan]

I think a good example of Daly's lack of pace came in the Italy match, at some point in the second half, I can't exactly remember when, but he got the ball with some space out wide (there were no England players nearby, and a couple of Italians 10m away). Instead of doing a "winger thing" like backing his pace, trusting his footwork to get him free or even a chip and chase if we have to kick everything, he just turned back inside towards the pack.

[sockwithaticket]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Yeah - it's the same across the park. Guys like Marler have severe limitations but there just isn't an obvious better option atm. But, given our lack of pace - you'd think we could achieve a better balance of pros and cons - in the backline - we do have some decent options outside of the centre pairing.

Borthwick clearly considers pace a very distant second to other attributes when it comes to back three players. I would've thought that might change with Felix Jones coming in. Part of the success of his defensive system with South Africa is the sheer pace SA can always muster in the outside backs which makes it much easier to scramble if the initial aggressive blitz is breached or circumvented. When we get breached it's Daly or Steward lumbering around trying to catch someone

[ASMO]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Yeah - it's the same across the park. Guys like Marler have severe limitations but there just isn't an obvious better option atm. But, given our lack of pace - you'd think we could achieve a better balance of pros and cons - in the backline - we do have some decent options outside of the centre pairing.

Borthwick clearly considers pace a very distant second to other attributes when it comes to back three players. I would've thought that might change with Felix Jones coming in. Part of the success of his defensive system with South Africa is the sheer pace SA can always muster in the outside backs which makes it much easier to scramble if the initial aggressive blitz is breached or circumvented. When we get breached it's Daly or Steward lumbering around trying to catch someone

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Which basically has us waiting for the games against Scotland and Wales contesting 3rd-5th, granted France may yet do something odd, Ireland though look very settled. And that may just be where we are, for mine I'd take a bigger risk and see if something can be developed, and not be having Marler trundle passively into contact whether looking to set up a 22 exit play or 10m in their half looking to generate quick centre field ball

If Borthwick was unwilling to take risks in his 1st year he's less likely further away from whatever passes for a honeymoon period. So we look set to carry on regardless

[Paddington Bear]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Which basically has us waiting for the games against Scotland and Wales contesting 3rd-5th, granted France may yet do something odd, Ireland though look very settled. And that may just be where we are, for mine I'd take a bigger risk and see if something can be developed, and not be having Marler trundle passively into contact whether looking to set up a 22 exit play or 10m in their half looking to generate quick centre field ball

If Borthwick was unwilling to take risks in his 1st year he's less likely further away from whatever passes for a honeymoon period. So we look set to carry on regardless

This seems harsh. We’ve picked a very new team, have a new defensive system and are clearly trying something new in attack. Criticise the execution (I’d like to judge last week after Scotland and Wales play Italy, for me they looked more of a rounded side than last year. Or maybe we’re just shit), but there’s clearly gambles being taken.

Re: 3rd - 5th. We clearly have the cattle to beat Wales and Scotland (may lose to both, I didn’t say we were better). We’re favourites today and will likely be slight underdogs in a fortnight, pending what Scotland manage today.
The WC semi is an indication that we can cause problems for the best teams in the world that Scotland and Wales are unable to. Scotland can cause problems we struggle to in attack, in fairness, but we’re the only one of the three that ever seems up for standing toe to toe with the big boys.

It’s a reasonable best case scenario that we win today and at Murrayfield. Once we’re 3 from 3 and have momentum all bets are off. Good England sides seemingly on course for grand slams have lost to much worse teams than this England side.

[TB63]

Second half resurgence by Wales to squeak a win..












Yeah right....

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Second half resurgence by Wales to squeak a win..












Yeah right....

Wales coming back from a significant deficit to beat an England teams out of ideas at Twickenham was what made me start watching club rugby.

[Plim]

Anyone watch the U20s game last night? (I couldn’t see an U20s thread).

England were at scrum practice and had quicker, bigger backs. Wales have footballing talent in the young players but TBH the Welsh U20s cupboard looks a bit bare. I know it’s not a great predictor but I can see a much better England side in two or three seasons with the newer senior caps and the emerging players. But I can’t see much for Wales.

As for today, hoping IFW and Smith get time and show well. But not much in it. England by 3.

[Oxbow]

Anyone watch the U20s game last night? (I couldn’t see an U20s thread).

England were at scrum practice and had quicker, bigger backs. Wales have footballing talent in the young players but TBH the Welsh U20s cupboard looks a bit bare. I know it’s not a great predictor but I can see a much better England side in two or three seasons with the newer senior caps and the emerging players. But I can’t see much for Wales.

As for today, hoping IFW and Smith get time and show well. But not much in it. England by 3.

https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?t=2824

[C69]

Anyone watch the U20s game last night? (I couldn’t see an U20s thread).

England were at scrum practice and had quicker, bigger backs. Wales have footballing talent in the young players but TBH the Welsh U20s cupboard looks a bit bare. I know it’s not a great predictor but I can see a much better England side in two or three seasons with the newer senior caps and the emerging players. But I can’t see much for Wales.

As for today, hoping IFW and Smith get time and show well. But not much in it. England by 3.

Morse Wales 8 was immense and the Bath centre was pretty good for Wales as well
Apart from those 2 the cupboard was indeed bare.

[Ovals]

Anyone watch the U20s game last night? (I couldn’t see an U20s thread).

England were at scrum practice and had quicker, bigger backs. Wales have footballing talent in the young players but TBH the Welsh U20s cupboard looks a bit bare. I know it’s not a great predictor but I can see a much better England side in two or three seasons with the newer senior caps and the emerging players. But I can’t see much for Wales.

As for today, hoping IFW and Smith get time and show well. But not much in it. England by 3.

Morse Wales 8 was immense and the Bath centre was pretty good for Wales as well
Apart from those 2 the cupboard was indeed bare.

I thought the Welsh lads defended very well - kept their shape and were really tenacious. Outside of the Forwards, England didn't show much. With the territory, possession and outright set piece domination, England should really have piled on the points.

I guess, given our senior issues up front, the look of the young forwards on show, is very promising. Would be nice to see some good centres progressing though.

[Raggs]

Got a gut feel that England will get a red card.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Even if an option is just ok, sometimes they're the best we have or one of the best we have and it's just a case of picking the player whose pros and cons fit most with what we're trying to do. England have very few players who look the complete package, particularly in the centres. Slade is very skillful, but he's not quick nor especially physical. Lawrence is quicker and more physical, but has shown considerably less skill so far. So and so forth with the rest.

Which basically has us waiting for the games against Scotland and Wales contesting 3rd-5th, granted France may yet do something odd, Ireland though look very settled. And that may just be where we are, for mine I'd take a bigger risk and see if something can be developed, and not be having Marler trundle passively into contact whether looking to set up a 22 exit play or 10m in their half looking to generate quick centre field ball

If Borthwick was unwilling to take risks in his 1st year he's less likely further away from whatever passes for a honeymoon period. So we look set to carry on regardless

This seems harsh. We’ve picked a very new team, have a new defensive system and are clearly trying something new in attack. Criticise the execution (I’d like to judge last week after Scotland and Wales play Italy, for me they looked more of a rounded side than last year. Or maybe we’re just shit), but there’s clearly gambles being taken.

Re: 3rd - 5th. We clearly have the cattle to beat Wales and Scotland (may lose to both, I didn’t say we were better). We’re favourites today and will likely be slight underdogs in a fortnight, pending what Scotland manage today.
The WC semi is an indication that we can cause problems for the best teams in the world that Scotland and Wales are unable to. Scotland can cause problems we struggle to in attack, in fairness, but we’re the only one of the three that ever seems up for standing toe to toe with the big boys.

It’s a reasonable best case scenario that we win today and at Murrayfield. Once we’re 3 from 3 and have momentum all bets are off. Good England sides seemingly on course for grand slams have lost to much worse teams than this England side.

Its supposed to be harsh, it's the elite level of the game and adequacy is a poor standard indeed