6 Nations Round 3 - Scotland v England

[JM2K6]

Watching that 1st try, I wonder if the knee on knee contact is what injured Tuipulotu.

It bothers me that just throwing dummy runners into the defender is okay now.

[Hal Jordan]

Holy shite Borthwick is dreadful.

His after match interview.

Just too many handling errors, young guys, …

He seems to suggest England’s only issue was that they were not safe enough.

What a complete loser !!

You may or may not remember his post match comments as England captain after another shithouse loss. He's basically a retreading his previous comments.

Bang average Test player (remember the 0m carry stats?), bang average coach.

[tc27]

Too many errors from England..kinda admired the intent but the skill levels just weren there first try aside.


Lawrence showing the risk of bringing a player back after a layoff.

Scotland deserve credit for one very nicely created try and two very clinical conversions of Englands mistakes.

Care was shite.

[sockwithaticket]

A yellow... for that?

Yes? It's been that way for years.

Fair enough, as a dump doesn't seem that dangerous, but years?

Tipping a player through the horizontal has been an auto yellow since at least as far back as the 2011 world cup. The only way it doesn't get penalised is if the tackler holds onto the player they've hit and brings them down safely or re-orients them so that they're no longer tipped. Duhan simply let go of a player he'd tipped, that's a cast iron yellow.

[Tichtheid]

Yes? It's been that way for years.

Fair enough, as a dump doesn't seem that dangerous, but years?

Tipping a player through the horizontal has been an auto yellow since at least as far back as the 2011 world cup. The only way it doesn't get penalised is if the tackler holds onto the player they've hit and brings them down safely or re-orients them so that they're no longer tipped. Duhan simply let go of a player he'd tipped, that's a cast iron yellow.

I don't think he just let him drop, he was one that got away so to speak, but I agree it was a cast iron yellow - no argument on that, I just hope it's not cited and upgraded, that would be nonsense, but not unlikely unfortunately.

[SaintK]

Absolute piss. Appreciated England's energy and previously unseen desire to attack, but in doing so they looked exactly like you'd expect from a team coached by Borthwick and Wigglesworth. And I'm sick of hearing about Felix Jones and the amount of time it took for SA to bed in their defence - the attitude is great but we're not SA and Slade, Daly, and co will continue to cough up try after try to any competent attack. It's currently looking like madness.

Negative impact off the bench but that was predictable after Ugo Moronye's comments at half time. Stuart bad, Spencer repeatedly made bad decisions, Fin Smith missed an easy enough kick and shelled one under little pressure, Martin made an excellent carry but immediately fucked it with that knock on from the kick off, etc. Feyi-Waboso looked good, mind.

Ford and Care both made far too many errors with their passing and generally it was pretty rank stuff compared to what you'd expect from a top tier club side, let alone international.

Scotland will be extremely happy with the result if not their own performance, as a team they didn't handle England's pace off the line particularly well. Still, with the disruption of the early HIA, and losing Tuipoloto at half time, it says a lot that it was a pretty comfortable win in the end.

After the Wales game it seemed clear to me England wouldn't win another game in this year's tournament.

Good summary

[el capitan]

Appoint Borthwick and Wigglesworth. Get Borthwick and Wigglesworth.

Of all the players your team could be the epitome of. Dear oh dear. What have we done to deserve it?

[sockwithaticket]

Fair enough, as a dump doesn't seem that dangerous, but years?

Tipping a player through the horizontal has been an auto yellow since at least as far back as the 2011 world cup. The only way it doesn't get penalised is if the tackler holds onto the player they've hit and brings them down safely or re-orients them so that they're no longer tipped. Duhan simply let go of a player he'd tipped, that's a cast iron yellow.

I don't think he just let him drop, he was one that got away so to speak, but I agree it was a cast iron yellow - no argument on that, I just hope it's not cited and upgraded, that would be nonsense, but not unlikely unfortunately.

Just watched it back, 'let drop' is probably an uncharitable description, but he does have minimal grip and control on Freeman in the fall.

Shouldn't be more than a yellow, but there has been the odd on field decision and disciplinary where the way the tackled player lands being more due to luck than judgement gets talked into a red/ban.

[Hal Jordan]

Too many errors from England..kinda admired the intent but the skill levels just weren there first try aside.


Lawrence showing the risk of bringing a player back after a layoff.

Scotland deserve credit for one very nicely created try and two very clinical conversions of Englands mistakes.

Care was shite.

I always felt Care was better off the bench at Test level, when his energy and sniping worked against a more unstructured defence.

Actually, do any England scrum halves snipe any more?

[ASMO]

Too many errors from England..kinda admired the intent but the skill levels just weren there first try aside.


Lawrence showing the risk of bringing a player back after a layoff.

Scotland deserve credit for one very nicely created try and two very clinical conversions of Englands mistakes.

Care was shite.

I always felt Care was better off the bench at Test level, when his energy and sniping worked against a more unstructured defence.

Actually, do any England scrum halves snipe any more?

Randall

[sockwithaticket]

Mitchell occasionally snipes, but it just seems to be something England coach the 9s not to do.

[petej]

Too many errors from England..kinda admired the intent but the skill levels just weren there first try aside.


Lawrence showing the risk of bringing a player back after a layoff.

Scotland deserve credit for one very nicely created try and two very clinical conversions of Englands mistakes.

Care was shite.

I always felt Care was better off the bench at Test level, when his energy and sniping worked against a more unstructured defence.

Actually, do any England scrum halves snipe any more?

Randall

Ben white? Think under Borthwick Tigers replaced white with Wigglesworth. Jvp did when he first came through.

[Tichtheid]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match was that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

[JM2K6]

Don't be greedy, you can't have the moral victory on top of the actual victory

[petej]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

[Tichtheid]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

Total bollocks, eh?

I don't think that will hold up after a re-watch of that second half.

@JM, I'm not looking for a moral victory, I just think England played the wrong tactics

[JM2K6]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

Total bollocks, eh?

I don't think that will hold up after a re-watch of that second half.

@JM, I'm not looking for a moral victory, I just think England played the wrong tactics

It's okay, I was just making a joke anyway.

I'm not sure I could accurately describe the approach of either team, but it's clear that England's primary option for winning the game was the defence, so...

[Slick]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

I actually said similar to Tichtheaid at the stadium. Just when they needed to take the game to Scotland they slowed it down and kept kicking it away

[petej]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

Total bollocks, eh?

I don't think that will hold up after a re-watch of that second half.

@JM, I'm not looking for a moral victory, I just think England played the wrong tactics

Generous to say we had tactics. We have no identity as a team. You have an inherently conservative coaching team trying to coach a less conservative game plan because a lot of talent coming through doesn't fit with a conservative game plan.

[topofthemoon]

How are we losing this ffs

There must be a record number of knockons from both sides in a half of rugby.

English backline not clicking, apart from the try.

I made it 14 knock-ons in the first half: 6 by Scotland and 8 by England.

[topofthemoon]

Finn Russell's last 7 games v England:

2024 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2023 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2022 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2021 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2019 Twickeham - Scotland draw;
2018 Twickenham - Barbarians win;
2018 Murrayfield - Scotland win.

[petej]

Finn Russell's last 7 games v England:

2024 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2023 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2022 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2021 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2019 Twickeham - Scotland draw;
2018 Twickenham - Barbarians win;
2018 Murrayfield - Scotland win.

His quality and execution in the key moments is arguably the difference between the teams.

[JM2K6]

I'd argue they have multiple points of difference. One of them scored three tries today.

[Big D]

I'd argue they have multiple points of difference. One of them scored three tries today.

One thing that surprised me today in a pleasant way was that Cummings was the most physical second row.on the pitch for large spells. Dominant tackles and a physical presence.

[Slick]

That was comfortably the worst 20 minutes of international rugby I’ve seen from Scotland in a long, long time at the start and we gifted England a 10 point start. Being completely honest though, I never really got nervous. Even 10 points up I thought England were terrible and we would get better, but they wouldn’t. England are a really poor team.

I just look at the teamsheet and see the same guys that seem to have been there forever and just are not good enough any more - Genge, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade - but they just keep getting picked.

I thought were physically better and just took the chances despite being off our game.

Finn was a bit out of sorts I thought but still had the game turning moments.

Anyway, don’t want to come across as gloating and I think everything I’ve said has been said by our English friends

[petej]

I'd argue they have multiple points of difference. One of them scored three tries today.

And that would be fair but Russell nailed all of his kicks including the cross field one for the try.

Edit: I'm just cranky because I'm utterly fed up with the shit served up by England.

[Slick]

And of course as predicted by every Scot, that France game gets more and more annoying

[Punter15]

And of course as predicted by every Scot, that France game gets more and more annoying

We are 3 from 3, and don’t be saying different.

[JM2K6]

I just look at the teamsheet and see the same guys that seem to have been there forever and just are not good enough any more - Genge, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade - but they just keep getting picked.

To be fair, Care was brilliant at the world cup off the bench and has continued that this tournament, you just don't want him to start matches. Ford certainly didn't look past it in the world cup.

Genge likewise has been giving good impact off the bench. Underhill has been anonymous this 6n but actually had a very good game. Itoje was a big thorn in the Scottish side for much of the game, very visibly involved and the first to a lot of loose ball. Cole is a thousand years old but put in a shift today.

Generally I think our pack was decent - the problem was the chaos in attack with the backs being culpable, and Ford + Care making a lot of poor passes, plus the obvious defensive issues with the blitz.

There's obviously a need to refresh the team but if you took today in isolation I don't think you'd pick on Cole, Itoje, Underhill without existing priors, yknow?

[Yr Alban]

Finn Russell's last 7 games v England:

2024 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2023 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2022 Murrayfield - Scotland win;
2021 Twickenham - Scotland win;
2019 Twickeham - Scotland draw;
2018 Twickenham - Barbarians win;
2018 Murrayfield - Scotland win.

Wow. That’s quite a stat. Approaching Sexton’s record v Scotland.

[Blackmac]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

There were quite a few times where they could and should have thrown it wide but decided to truck it up. Even as a Scot it was frustrating to watch as you felt they were missing opportunities to blast into contact.

[fishfoodie]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

I just want to rewatch the match with the Benny Hill music on.

Both sides made an appalling number of errors, but the difference was that when England fucked up, the Scots had a half back with ambition, & a back with the verve to capitalize, while England had ...

[Big D]

This is without watching it back, but my impression during the match that England looked to shithouse their way into the game rather than aggressively go after Scotland's lead, they chose to slow the game down and stop Scotland's momentum instead of looking to build their own.

It was a negative approach.

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

I just want to rewatch the match with the Benny Hill music on.

Both sides made an appalling number of errors, but the difference was that when England fucked up, the Scots had a half back with ambition, & a back with the verve to capitalize, while England had ...

It is odd seeing Scotland become a team that can win when playing below their best. I'm used to seeing us lose when playing well and losing by more when playing poorly!

[fishfoodie]

Total bollocks. England tried to play more than Scotland, mostly ineffectively, self combusted and Scotland executed well on the England errors (coming from trying to play and general ineptitude).

I just want to rewatch the match with the Benny Hill music on.

Both sides made an appalling number of errors, but the difference was that when England fucked up, the Scots had a half back with ambition, & a back with the verve to capitalize, while England had ...

It is odd seeing Scotland become a team that can win when playing below their best. I'm used to seeing us lose when playing well and losing by more when playing poorly!

There was a degree of pragmatism that is often absent from Scottish teams !

Kicking for the corner is all very well & good, but this evening Scotland just took the points on offer, & didn't fuck about with their supporters hearts as much as usual

[dpedin]

I honestly have no idea what England are trying to do most of the time when they have the ball and watching them I don't think they know either! To be fair they scored a good try in the first 5 mins when Scotland decided to stand back and let them have a free run but after that they just looked lost and confused. Scotland played poorly but still managed to look better than England and won comfortably in the end.

I thought this would be the 6Ns when Borthwick et al decided to refresh the team and bed in some new younger guys post RWC and build for the future. However we get a 37 year old Care, subbed by a 31 year old Spencer, a 30 year old Ford, 30 year old Slade and a 31 year old Daly - all of whom were dreadful. Add in a clearly undercooked Lawrence and a confidence lacking Freeman and it is no wonder England backs were so poor. Also if Marler and Cole aren't winning the scrums then you have to wonder what else they offer around the park, both offer little and are very slow in defence. Genge just wanders around like an angry man trying to win the game all by himself and Stuart promises little and delivers exactly that. Also given the sad circumstances George shouldn't have played, even though he was desperate to play.

England have some very good young players who are desperate for their chance but are not picked, get 10 minutes at the end of the game or when selected suffer from the ineptitude of the 'senior' players and get blamed and dropped. The likes of Care, Spencer, Ford, Slade, Daly, Marler, Cole etc have all had their time and it is clear they aren't the future for England. It is time for Borthwick to take a chance and bring in younger guys and give them the experience they need.

[Slick]

I just look at the teamsheet and see the same guys that seem to have been there forever and just are not good enough any more - Genge, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade - but they just keep getting picked.

To be fair, Care was brilliant at the world cup off the bench and has continued that this tournament, you just don't want him to start matches. Ford certainly didn't look past it in the world cup.

Genge likewise has been giving good impact off the bench. Underhill has been anonymous this 6n but actually had a very good game. Itoje was a big thorn in the Scottish side for much of the game, very visibly involved and the first to a lot of loose ball. Cole is a thousand years old but put in a shift today.

Generally I think our pack was decent - the problem was the chaos in attack with the backs being culpable, and Ford + Care making a lot of poor passes, plus the obvious defensive issues with the blitz.

There's obviously a need to refresh the team but if you took today in isolation I don't think you'd pick on Cole, Itoje, Underhill without existing priors, yknow?

Maybe it was just a slightly different view from the stands but I didn’t really notice any of those 3 - maybe Itoje in the first 20 mins but nothing much after that.

[JM2K6]

I just look at the teamsheet and see the same guys that seem to have been there forever and just are not good enough any more - Genge, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade - but they just keep getting picked.

To be fair, Care was brilliant at the world cup off the bench and has continued that this tournament, you just don't want him to start matches. Ford certainly didn't look past it in the world cup.

Genge likewise has been giving good impact off the bench. Underhill has been anonymous this 6n but actually had a very good game. Itoje was a big thorn in the Scottish side for much of the game, very visibly involved and the first to a lot of loose ball. Cole is a thousand years old but put in a shift today.

Generally I think our pack was decent - the problem was the chaos in attack with the backs being culpable, and Ford + Care making a lot of poor passes, plus the obvious defensive issues with the blitz.

There's obviously a need to refresh the team but if you took today in isolation I don't think you'd pick on Cole, Itoje, Underhill without existing priors, yknow?

Maybe it was just a slightly different view from the stands but I didn’t really notice any of those 3 - maybe Itoje in the first 20 mins but nothing much after that.

Probably because you're Scottish. I take it at face value that the Scottish players being praised beyond the obvious ones had good games, because I was too busy watching the England players to notice

[Tichtheid]

To be fair, Care was brilliant at the world cup off the bench and has continued that this tournament, you just don't want him to start matches. Ford certainly didn't look past it in the world cup.

Genge likewise has been giving good impact off the bench. Underhill has been anonymous this 6n but actually had a very good game. Itoje was a big thorn in the Scottish side for much of the game, very visibly involved and the first to a lot of loose ball. Cole is a thousand years old but put in a shift today.

Generally I think our pack was decent - the problem was the chaos in attack with the backs being culpable, and Ford + Care making a lot of poor passes, plus the obvious defensive issues with the blitz.

There's obviously a need to refresh the team but if you took today in isolation I don't think you'd pick on Cole, Itoje, Underhill without existing priors, yknow?

Maybe it was just a slightly different view from the stands but I didn’t really notice any of those 3 - maybe Itoje in the first 20 mins but nothing much after that.

Probably because you're Scottish. I take it at face value that the Scottish players being praised beyond the obvious ones had good games, because I was too busy watching the England players to notice

Personally I thought there were a lot of 6 out of 10s in the Scotland side, performance-wise. Finn was around 7 or 8 for him, with Duhan 9. No one lower than that for Scotland.

[Yr Alban]

Was slightly fascinated that one of the England replacements was called Cunningham-South. Because Cunninghame South is a Scottish Parliament constituency (and was a Westminster constituency too before the numbers were reduced).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunningha ... stituency)

[petej]

Worth saying that at 9 England are down 3 players in Mitchell, quirke and van poortfliet I would expect to start in front of care.