The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Yr Alban]

Beating Italy can’t be regarded as a given with their current form. Especially in Rome. I’d like to think we have too much firepower for them, but they were painfully close to a winning try at MF a year ago.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Well…. Assuming we should beat Italy that just about secures us 2nd at least doesn’t it?

Not sure. France have Wales & England to play - they should win both, and probably a BP against Wales. So that's 8 or 9 more points, which puts them on 14 or 15.

We're on 9, so a BP against Italy (by no means a certainty) puts us on 14. So we might need a LBP or 4 tries at least against Ireland.

But this is Scotland, so Garbisi hitting the post will be what denies us 2nd place. It is written.

I hadn’t put much thought into that, pleased to be brought back tk earth

Ah, humble apologies!

[I like neeps]

Well…. Assuming we should beat Italy that just about secures us 2nd at least doesn’t it?

Not sure. France have Wales & England to play - they should win both, and probably a BP against Wales. So that's 8 or 9 more points, which puts them on 14 or 15.

We're on 9, so a BP against Italy (by no means a certainty) puts us on 14. So we might need a LBP or 4 tries at least against Ireland.

But this is Scotland, so Garbisi hitting the post will be what denies us 2nd place. It is written.

A 4 try BP in Rome against this Italy side would be a very handy result.

[Big D]

Saturday was an odd game really. We very nearly beat the blitz on our first attack then rarely managed to get outside it.

As mentioned on the match thread I do wonder if Tuipulotu hurt his knee when the dummy runner crashed into him causing a knee on inside of knee collision.

Overall I thought the second rows stood up physically in what might be GGs last Murrayfield start. Cummings needs to keep that going. I thought the back row was workman like but feel that too often Darge is the one making the tackle rather than impacting the ruck regularly (not to say he wasn't impacting the ruck but not enough IMO). Dempsey was very physical in defence although quiet in attack.

White had his worst game of the 6N but I was impressed by his physicality in defence. Finn and Duhan are what they are (very good). Jones is now a more complete 13 than he has ever been. I honestly think spending time with Harris has helped his defence. Kinghorn was ok but after a few weeks out I wasn't expecting him to be perfect.

A nod to our bench. Considering the England bench was supposedly better I think they stood up well. EMM had a bullshit penalty against him, Ashman had good arrows, Skinner kept the physicality high, Christie was busy, and Redpath was good barring one major defensive mistake.

Two areas of concern for me, our attack hasn't really opened up in the 6N except for small spells and in the last 5min we gave away two basic penalties (Horne offside and DVDM tackle) that gave England a small glimmer of hope.

I'd bring Christie in for Ritchie v Italy and whichever of Redpath/McDowell assuming Tuipulotu is injured.

[Slick]

Saturday was an odd game really. We very nearly beat the blitz on our first attack then rarely managed to get outside it.

As mentioned on the match thread I do wonder if Tuipulotu hurt his knee when the dummy runner crashed into him causing a knee on inside of knee collision.

Overall I thought the second rows stood up physically in what might be GGs last Murrayfield start. Cummings needs to keep that going. I thought the back row was workman like but feel that too often Darge is the one making the tackle rather than impacting the ruck regularly (not to say he wasn't impacting the ruck but not enough IMO). Dempsey was very physical in defence although quiet in attack.

White had his worst game of the 6N but I was impressed by his physicality in defence. Finn and Duhan are what they are (very good). Jones is now a more complete 13 than he has ever been. I honestly think spending time with Harris has helped his defence. Kinghorn was ok but after a few weeks out I wasn't expecting him to be perfect.

A nod to our bench. Considering the England bench was supposedly better I think they stood up well. EMM had a bullshit penalty against him, Ashman had good arrows, Skinner kept the physicality high, Christie was busy, and Redpath was good barring one major defensive mistake.

Two areas of concern for me, our attack hasn't really opened up in the 6N except for small spells and in the last 5min we gave away two basic penalties (Horne offside and DVDM tackle) that gave England a small glimmer of hope.

I'd bring Christie in for Ritchie v Italy and whichever of Redpath/McDowell assuming Tuipulotu is injured.

Don't think there is much to argue about there. Difficult to tell exactly what Darge was up to at the ground, but he was certainly very prominent all game. Also thought the 2nd rows did more than hold their own, they were great, as was the whole pack, physically. Also agree, the bench did very well.

Why might it be GG's last game? I haven't heard anything about this.

Loved the video piece with Christie after the game where he could hardly speak with excitement at the atmosphere he had just been part of.

[C T]

Heeds thumping, but reading the seeth from England fans on social media is helping ease the severe hangover.

It’s also a lot of fun when they rant on about foreign born players to point out their second try scorer is Welsh, by the standards that people hold us to.

Aye, but apparently if your team only has x* number of poaches it’s fine.


*x being the number they currently have. By adding an additional poach x changes. It is a flexible constant.

We were having some good ol fashion pub chat about this at the weekend, it just seems to be mostly massively overstated..

Z Fagerson - Jock
Turner - Jock
Schoooo - OK, not Jock. Poach. A great big Saffa. A wee bit like Nel though, you do get the impression he has settled. In 20 years time, Schoooo Jnr propping up our scrum.
Cummings - Jock
Gilchrist - Jock
Darge - Jock
Ritchie - Jock
Dempsie - He's an Aussie. Fully expect to see him down the cricket with a mullet and a tash at the Ashes. Poach. I think M Fagerson is perfectly capable anyway, but there you go.
White - He's got a Scottish grandfather, just isn't a poach. I'd personally start Horne anyway.
Finn - Jock
IrnDhu - A great big monstrosity of a Saffa. Poach
Jones - He was born in Leith, for fuck sake. Jock.
Tuipulotu - I get that people are desperate to paint Scotland as king poachers, but this man has a Scottish grandmother. It's hardly our fault we disperse and pop out good rugby players.
Steyne - Scottish mother. Mother bechrist, why am I even having to defend this? Filling in for Darcy anyway.
Kinghorn - Jock

Three poaches by my count.

[Tichtheid]

It’s also a lot of fun when they rant on about foreign born players to point out their second try scorer is Welsh, by the standards that people hold us to.

Aye, but apparently if your team only has x* number of poaches it’s fine.


*x being the number they currently have. By adding an additional poach x changes. It is a flexible constant.

We were having some good ol fashion pub chat about this at the weekend, it just seems to be mostly massively overstated..

Z Fagerson - Jock
Turner - Jock
Schoooo - OK, not Jock. Poach. A great big Saffa. A wee bit like Nel though, you do get the impression he has settled. In 20 years time, Schoooo Jnr propping up our scrum.
Cummings - Jock
Gilchrist - Jock
Darge - Jock
Ritchie - Jock
Dempsie - He's an Aussie. Fully expect to see him down the cricket with a mullet and a tash at the Ashes. Poach. I think M Fagerson is perfectly capable anyway, but there you go.
White - He's got a Scottish grandfather, just isn't a poach. I'd personally start Horne anyway.
Finn - Jock
IrnDhu - A great big monstrosity of a Saffa. Poach
Jones - He was born in Leith, for fuck sake. Jock.
Tuipulotu - I get that people are desperate to paint Scotland as king poachers, but this man has a Scottish grandmother. It's hardly our fault we disperse and pop out good rugby players.
Steyne - Scottish mother. Mother bechrist, why am I even having to defend this? Filling in for Darcy anyway.
Kinghorn - Jock

Three poaches by my count.

Bear with me on this, but I wouldn't count Duhan as a poach, he came to Edinburgh with two pro games under his belt, out of contract and with a failed medical certificate, end of career stuff.
We don't have anyone else that can do what he does, though and it's not just the finishing, it's the big metres made in heavy traffic after contact. My only problem with him is that he doesn't seem to look as hungry with Edinburgh as he does with Scotland.

We also don't have anyone like Schooey, unfortunately. (btw, I thought Fagerson snr got a raw deal at the scrum decisions at the weekend)

Dempsey is obviously our first choice 8, but I don't think it's a huge step down to Fagerson Jnr, Bradbury or even, and I'll keep banging this drum, Crosbie at 8. Christie also plays 8, I think.

[Biffer]

It’s also a lot of fun when they rant on about foreign born players to point out their second try scorer is Welsh, by the standards that people hold us to.

Aye, but apparently if your team only has x* number of poaches it’s fine.


*x being the number they currently have. By adding an additional poach x changes. It is a flexible constant.

We were having some good ol fashion pub chat about this at the weekend, it just seems to be mostly massively overstated..

Z Fagerson - Jock
Turner - Jock
Schoooo - OK, not Jock. Poach. A great big Saffa. A wee bit like Nel though, you do get the impression he has settled. In 20 years time, Schoooo Jnr propping up our scrum.
Cummings - Jock
Gilchrist - Jock
Darge - Jock
Ritchie - Jock
Dempsie - He's an Aussie. Fully expect to see him down the cricket with a mullet and a tash at the Ashes. Poach. I think M Fagerson is perfectly capable anyway, but there you go.
White - He's got a Scottish grandfather, just isn't a poach. I'd personally start Horne anyway.
Finn - Jock
IrnDhu - A great big monstrosity of a Saffa. Poach
Jones - He was born in Leith, for fuck sake. Jock.
Tuipulotu - I get that people are desperate to paint Scotland as king poachers, but this man has a Scottish grandmother. It's hardly our fault we disperse and pop out good rugby players.
Steyne - Scottish mother. Mother bechrist, why am I even having to defend this? Filling in for Darcy anyway.
Kinghorn - Jock

Three poaches by my count.

Dempsey qualifies on ancestry grounds. Wouldn't count him as a poach either.

[dpedin]

Saturday was an odd game really. We very nearly beat the blitz on our first attack then rarely managed to get outside it.

As mentioned on the match thread I do wonder if Tuipulotu hurt his knee when the dummy runner crashed into him causing a knee on inside of knee collision.

Overall I thought the second rows stood up physically in what might be GGs last Murrayfield start. Cummings needs to keep that going. I thought the back row was workman like but feel that too often Darge is the one making the tackle rather than impacting the ruck regularly (not to say he wasn't impacting the ruck but not enough IMO). Dempsey was very physical in defence although quiet in attack.

White had his worst game of the 6N but I was impressed by his physicality in defence. Finn and Duhan are what they are (very good). Jones is now a more complete 13 than he has ever been. I honestly think spending time with Harris has helped his defence. Kinghorn was ok but after a few weeks out I wasn't expecting him to be perfect.

A nod to our bench. Considering the England bench was supposedly better I think they stood up well. EMM had a bullshit penalty against him, Ashman had good arrows, Skinner kept the physicality high, Christie was busy, and Redpath was good barring one major defensive mistake.

Two areas of concern for me, our attack hasn't really opened up in the 6N except for small spells and in the last 5min we gave away two basic penalties (Horne offside and DVDM tackle) that gave England a small glimmer of hope.

I'd bring Christie in for Ritchie v Italy and whichever of Redpath/McDowell assuming Tuipulotu is injured.

Don't think there is much to argue about there. Difficult to tell exactly what Darge was up to at the ground, but he was certainly very prominent all game. Also thought the 2nd rows did more than hold their own, they were great, as was the whole pack, physically. Also agree, the bench did very well.

Why might it be GG's last game? I haven't heard anything about this.

Loved the video piece with Christie after the game where he could hardly speak with excitement at the atmosphere he had just been part of.

Although England have been pretty poor recently their pack is still full of big and experienced players and has gone ok in recent games, their major problems are mostly in the backs. England have always had a good set piece and are big and aggressive in the tight, however in multi phase open play they struggle with mobility in their front row and end up slowing it down. Our pack stood up well to theirs and we constantly stopped them getting over the gain line and getting fast ball. I was hoping before the game that if we had parity up front then our backs were more than capable of winning the game for us and they did. Our pack weren't flashy but very very effective and stopped England pack at source. The amount of hard graft in the tight, whilst not immediately obvious, was probably what won us the game ultimately - England backs were constantly trying to play off slow and poor ball with no forward momentum behind the gain line and they aren't good enough to do that so either lost the ball or kicked it aimlessly away.

[Paddington Bear]

Coming in peace.

First up - congrats on the win. Over the last ‘cycle’ I think the domination chat was overdone, all four games could have gone either way at any point. Saturday was chastening and Scotland were barely made to sweat. It’s a pity you won’t get a chance to chase a Grand Slam.

Re: poaching. I wouldn’t take most of it too seriously. Every set of fans likes to shoot the breeze, we all like to take the piss out of the other side and justify a poor performance due to some external bullshit. It’s obviously particularly incongruous when it’s someone with a name like Duhan Van de Merwe and the appearance of never having eaten a non-biltong based meal winning games. There was always noticeably less stick for England playing someone with a name like Brad Barritt than there was Mauritz Botha, same principle and obvious nonsense.

That leads to point two - we’re all massive hypocrites. We all notice ‘poaches’ so much more when it’s the opposition than our own. Feyi-Waboso’s reasons for playing for England seem much more understandable to an England fan than a Welsh one. Likewise Lowe for Ireland etc.

the Home Nations have massive complications on eligibility anyway. Any kids I have will be eligible for England and Scotland, and would have a very justifiable case for electing for either. I do some work tangentially with Finn Smith’s dad. A prouder Scotsman you’d struggle to meet, he still reportedly was in tears when Finn ran out for his first England cap.

Lastly, all the teams are somewhat international, and all of us have benefited from this. To my mind you can either have that, and accept that these are just rugby matches and park the nationalism, or you can have a highly restrictive eligibility system, all sons of the soil and go full blood and thunder. The former is preferable and seems to be reflected in a much calmer atmosphere at Home Nations games, so most people seem to get the point. Certainly my Dad, who I think went to just about every Calcutta Cup game at Murrayfield through the 80s and 90s, was very pleasantly surprised at the change in atmosphere at the game and throughout Edinburgh this weekend.
This isn’t unique or intended as a dig -English nationalism has always had more of an output through football, and has noticeably declined (though not to extinction) as the team has become more diverse. Same principle applies.

Anyway, please beat Ireland. We won’t

[I like neeps]

Aye, but apparently if your team only has x* number of poaches it’s fine.


*x being the number they currently have. By adding an additional poach x changes. It is a flexible constant.

We were having some good ol fashion pub chat about this at the weekend, it just seems to be mostly massively overstated..

Z Fagerson - Jock
Turner - Jock
Schoooo - OK, not Jock. Poach. A great big Saffa. A wee bit like Nel though, you do get the impression he has settled. In 20 years time, Schoooo Jnr propping up our scrum.
Cummings - Jock
Gilchrist - Jock
Darge - Jock
Ritchie - Jock
Dempsie - He's an Aussie. Fully expect to see him down the cricket with a mullet and a tash at the Ashes. Poach. I think M Fagerson is perfectly capable anyway, but there you go.
White - He's got a Scottish grandfather, just isn't a poach. I'd personally start Horne anyway.
Finn - Jock
IrnDhu - A great big monstrosity of a Saffa. Poach
Jones - He was born in Leith, for fuck sake. Jock.
Tuipulotu - I get that people are desperate to paint Scotland as king poachers, but this man has a Scottish grandmother. It's hardly our fault we disperse and pop out good rugby players.
Steyne - Scottish mother. Mother bechrist, why am I even having to defend this? Filling in for Darcy anyway.
Kinghorn - Jock

Three poaches by my count.

Dempsey qualifies on ancestry grounds. Wouldn't count him as a poach either.

Poach just means not born in Scotland in this discourse.

The reason we're singled out more than other unions as poachers is that it I think we'd be uncompetitive without use of project players and the SQ pathway. Everyone thinks it and I think we do too. It's a nonsense that English born players are seen as poaches because we're all the same nationality in a very fluid union at this point in time.

We play within the rules though, if enough people don't like it they should change them.

[Slick]

Coming in peace.

First up - congrats on the win. Over the last ‘cycle’ I think the domination chat was overdone, all four games could have gone either way at any point. Saturday was chastening and Scotland were barely made to sweat. It’s a pity you won’t get a chance to chase a Grand Slam.

Re: poaching. I wouldn’t take most of it too seriously. Every set of fans likes to shoot the breeze, we all like to take the piss out of the other side and justify a poor performance due to some external bullshit. It’s obviously particularly incongruous when it’s someone with a name like Duhan Van de Merwe and the appearance of never having eaten a non-biltong based meal winning games. There was always noticeably less stick for England playing someone with a name like Brad Barritt than there was Mauritz Botha, same principle and obvious nonsense.

That leads to point two - we’re all massive hypocrites. We all notice ‘poaches’ so much more when it’s the opposition than our own. Feyi-Waboso’s reasons for playing for England seem much more understandable to an England fan than a Welsh one. Likewise Lowe for Ireland etc.

the Home Nations have massive complications on eligibility anyway. Any kids I have will be eligible for England and Scotland, and would have a very justifiable case for electing for either. I do some work tangentially with Finn Smith’s dad. A prouder Scotsman you’d struggle to meet, he still reportedly was in tears when Finn ran out for his first England cap.

Lastly, all the teams are somewhat international, and all of us have benefited from this. To my mind you can either have that, and accept that these are just rugby matches and park the nationalism, or you can have a highly restrictive eligibility system, all sons of the soil and go full blood and thunder. The former is preferable and seems to be reflected in a much calmer atmosphere at Home Nations games, so most people seem to get the point. Certainly my Dad, who I think went to just about every Calcutta Cup game at Murrayfield through the 80s and 90s, was very pleasantly surprised at the change in atmosphere at the game and throughout Edinburgh this weekend.
This isn’t unique or intended as a dig -English nationalism has always had more of an output through football, and has noticeably declined (though not to extinction) as the team has become more diverse. Same principle applies.

Anyway, please beat Ireland. We won’t

Don't know if that was partly in response to a post I made earlier about the atmosphere in and out the stadium, but I found it noticeably more amicable and was much, much better for that.

Absolutely gutted I didn't get to see you old man, we just kept missing each other by a few minutes. Next time. I think he was with my dad for several of those 80's/90's trips

[Tichtheid]

PRL being arseholes, the English clubs are fine with releasing players when there are no games, but they are not allowed to

https://www.theoffsideline.com/gregor-townsend-prl/

[Big D]

Saturday was an odd game really. We very nearly beat the blitz on our first attack then rarely managed to get outside it.

As mentioned on the match thread I do wonder if Tuipulotu hurt his knee when the dummy runner crashed into him causing a knee on inside of knee collision.

Overall I thought the second rows stood up physically in what might be GGs last Murrayfield start. Cummings needs to keep that going. I thought the back row was workman like but feel that too often Darge is the one making the tackle rather than impacting the ruck regularly (not to say he wasn't impacting the ruck but not enough IMO). Dempsey was very physical in defence although quiet in attack.

White had his worst game of the 6N but I was impressed by his physicality in defence. Finn and Duhan are what they are (very good). Jones is now a more complete 13 than he has ever been. I honestly think spending time with Harris has helped his defence. Kinghorn was ok but after a few weeks out I wasn't expecting him to be perfect.

A nod to our bench. Considering the England bench was supposedly better I think they stood up well. EMM had a bullshit penalty against him, Ashman had good arrows, Skinner kept the physicality high, Christie was busy, and Redpath was good barring one major defensive mistake.

Two areas of concern for me, our attack hasn't really opened up in the 6N except for small spells and in the last 5min we gave away two basic penalties (Horne offside and DVDM tackle) that gave England a small glimmer of hope.

I'd bring Christie in for Ritchie v Italy and whichever of Redpath/McDowell assuming Tuipulotu is injured.

Don't think there is much to argue about there. Difficult to tell exactly what Darge was up to at the ground, but he was certainly very prominent all game. Also thought the 2nd rows did more than hold their own, they were great, as was the whole pack, physically. Also agree, the bench did very well.

Why might it be GG's last game? I haven't heard anything about this.

Loved the video piece with Christie after the game where he could hardly speak with excitement at the atmosphere he had just been part of.

Not his last game but maybe his last start at Murrayfield. He is 34 by the start of next season, and at some point there going to be a change as there is only so much more we can eek out of GG and Gray Snr.

Hopefully one more international season out of him, but with Cummings and then Gray(s) and Henderson hopefully getting over their injuries by November plus maybe wanting to look at the younger players there is a chance that was his last Murrayfield start,

[Paddington Bear]

Coming in peace.

First up - congrats on the win. Over the last ‘cycle’ I think the domination chat was overdone, all four games could have gone either way at any point. Saturday was chastening and Scotland were barely made to sweat. It’s a pity you won’t get a chance to chase a Grand Slam.

Re: poaching. I wouldn’t take most of it too seriously. Every set of fans likes to shoot the breeze, we all like to take the piss out of the other side and justify a poor performance due to some external bullshit. It’s obviously particularly incongruous when it’s someone with a name like Duhan Van de Merwe and the appearance of never having eaten a non-biltong based meal winning games. There was always noticeably less stick for England playing someone with a name like Brad Barritt than there was Mauritz Botha, same principle and obvious nonsense.

That leads to point two - we’re all massive hypocrites. We all notice ‘poaches’ so much more when it’s the opposition than our own. Feyi-Waboso’s reasons for playing for England seem much more understandable to an England fan than a Welsh one. Likewise Lowe for Ireland etc.

the Home Nations have massive complications on eligibility anyway. Any kids I have will be eligible for England and Scotland, and would have a very justifiable case for electing for either. I do some work tangentially with Finn Smith’s dad. A prouder Scotsman you’d struggle to meet, he still reportedly was in tears when Finn ran out for his first England cap.

Lastly, all the teams are somewhat international, and all of us have benefited from this. To my mind you can either have that, and accept that these are just rugby matches and park the nationalism, or you can have a highly restrictive eligibility system, all sons of the soil and go full blood and thunder. The former is preferable and seems to be reflected in a much calmer atmosphere at Home Nations games, so most people seem to get the point. Certainly my Dad, who I think went to just about every Calcutta Cup game at Murrayfield through the 80s and 90s, was very pleasantly surprised at the change in atmosphere at the game and throughout Edinburgh this weekend.
This isn’t unique or intended as a dig -English nationalism has always had more of an output through football, and has noticeably declined (though not to extinction) as the team has become more diverse. Same principle applies.

Anyway, please beat Ireland. We won’t

Don't know if that was partly in response to a post I made earlier about the atmosphere in and out the stadium, but I found it noticeably more amicable and was much, much better for that.

Absolutely gutted I didn't get to see you old man, we just kept missing each other by a few minutes. Next time. I think he was with my dad for several of those 80's/90's trips

I’d seen your post but it was more from my parents. They had seats apart from each other and based on past experience Dad was a little concerned for Mum on her own, so I checked in afterwards. Both had a great time.

And yes, I believe it was your Dad who persuaded mine not to buy a ‘Grand Slam winners 1990’ shirt, probably a factor in my existence

[Slick]

I remember that story now

[Yr Alban]

We were having some good ol fashion pub chat about this at the weekend, it just seems to be mostly massively overstated..

Z Fagerson - Jock
Turner - Jock
Schoooo - OK, not Jock. Poach. A great big Saffa. A wee bit like Nel though, you do get the impression he has settled. In 20 years time, Schoooo Jnr propping up our scrum.
Cummings - Jock
Gilchrist - Jock
Darge - Jock
Ritchie - Jock
Dempsie - He's an Aussie. Fully expect to see him down the cricket with a mullet and a tash at the Ashes. Poach. I think M Fagerson is perfectly capable anyway, but there you go.
White - He's got a Scottish grandfather, just isn't a poach. I'd personally start Horne anyway.
Finn - Jock
IrnDhu - A great big monstrosity of a Saffa. Poach
Jones - He was born in Leith, for fuck sake. Jock.
Tuipulotu - I get that people are desperate to paint Scotland as king poachers, but this man has a Scottish grandmother. It's hardly our fault we disperse and pop out good rugby players.
Steyne - Scottish mother. Mother bechrist, why am I even having to defend this? Filling in for Darcy anyway.
Kinghorn - Jock

Three poaches by my count.

Dempsey qualifies on ancestry grounds. Wouldn't count him as a poach either.

Poach just means not born in Scotland in this discourse.

The reason we're singled out more than other unions as poachers is that it I think we'd be uncompetitive without use of project players and the SQ pathway. Everyone thinks it and I think we do too. It's a nonsense that English born players are seen as poaches because we're all the same nationality in a very fluid union at this point in time.

We play within the rules though, if enough people don't like it they should change them.

We’ll have to agree to disagree about all being the same nationality. We all have the same passport, which isn’t quite the same thing. But genetically everyone is a mongrel nowadays.

[Yr Alban]

15. Smith
14. Graham
13. Jones
12. McDowall
11. Kinghorn
10. Russell
9. Horne
8. M Fagerson
7. Darge
6. Ritchie
5. Gilchrist
4. J Gray
3. Z Fagerson
2. Turner
1. Sutherland

Reps: Patterson, Hastings, Dobie, Crosbie, Cummings, Walker, Harrison, Bhatti

You could field a decent competitive side with only players born in Scotland, if you wanted. I’d also make the point that you could put Finlay Christie in at 9 with Horne on the bench, Tom Roebuck in at 11 with Kinghorn moving back to 15 and Smith to the bench, and Bevan Rodd in place of Bhatti. Because the traffic isn’t all one way.

[I like neeps]

Dempsey qualifies on ancestry grounds. Wouldn't count him as a poach either.

Poach just means not born in Scotland in this discourse.

The reason we're singled out more than other unions as poachers is that it I think we'd be uncompetitive without use of project players and the SQ pathway. Everyone thinks it and I think we do too. It's a nonsense that English born players are seen as poaches because we're all the same nationality in a very fluid union at this point in time.

We play within the rules though, if enough people don't like it they should change them.

We’ll have to agree to disagree about all being the same nationality. We all have the same passport, which isn’t quite the same thing. But genetically everyone is a mongrel nowadays.

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

[Yr Alban]

Poach just means not born in Scotland in this discourse.

The reason we're singled out more than other unions as poachers is that it I think we'd be uncompetitive without use of project players and the SQ pathway. Everyone thinks it and I think we do too. It's a nonsense that English born players are seen as poaches because we're all the same nationality in a very fluid union at this point in time.

We play within the rules though, if enough people don't like it they should change them.

We’ll have to agree to disagree about all being the same nationality. We all have the same passport, which isn’t quite the same thing. But genetically everyone is a mongrel nowadays.

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

[clydecloggie]

We’ll have to agree to disagree about all being the same nationality. We all have the same passport, which isn’t quite the same thing. But genetically everyone is a mongrel nowadays.

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

This may have been true until recently but I'm not sure it holds any longer. England would have loved to have Ben White playing for them, I would assume, for instance.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

This may have been true until recently but I'm not sure it holds any longer. England would have loved to have Ben White playing for them, I would assume, for instance.

He got hit with a double whammy of Leicester's inability to manage their youth talent and Eddie Jones being allergic to picking any 9 not named Ben Youngs. Suspect that under any other coaching regime he would've been capped.

[Slick]

We’ll have to agree to disagree about all being the same nationality. We all have the same passport, which isn’t quite the same thing. But genetically everyone is a mongrel nowadays.

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

Is rugby in Scotland a middle class game? Outside of the FP clubs the one thing I was really struck by when I moved back up as an adult was how "working class" most of the clubs and players seemed to be, or at the very least a very big mix. It seems to me to be a much more mixed bag than England.

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

[Big D]

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

Nationality means different things to different people. For some it is an identity and for others it means very little beyond the very basics.

Increasingly now there is a clear business reason why remaining EQ for as long as possible even up to caps is the right thing to do.

P.s totally agree about the working/middle class thing.

[Big D]

Huw Jones is apparently off to Montpellier in the summer.

[Tichtheid]

Huw Jones is apparently off to Montpellier in the summer.

Apart form all that money, the sunshine and the prospect of living on the Mediterranean coast, why would he do such a thing?

[I like neeps]

Huw Jones is apparently off to Montpellier in the summer.

Apart form all that money, the sunshine and the prospect of living on the Mediterranean coast, why would he do such a thing?

Nothing Huw Jones enjoys more than signing for relegation threatened teams in the south of France.

[Tichtheid]

Huw Jones is apparently off to Montpellier in the summer.

Apart form all that money, the sunshine and the prospect of living on the Mediterranean coast, why would he do such a thing?

Nothing Huw Jones enjoys more than signing for relegation threatened teams in the south of France.

If Montpellier go down I'll eat my hat, worst case scenario for them is that they are in a playoff against the top of Pro D2.

It's a funny old league though, La Rochelle are currently 9th

[inactionman]

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

Nationality means different things to different people. For some it is an identity and for others it means very little beyond the very basics.

Increasingly now there is a clear business reason why remaining EQ for as long as possible even up to caps is the right thing to do.

P.s totally agree about the working/middle class thing.

It's not always black-and-white - I'm dual national British Irish with an English father and Irish mother but would only ever want to represent England as it was where I was brought up. If both of my parents were Irish I might have had a different perspective.

I can understand a player born in England with Scottish parents would consider themselves Scottish, I can equally understand if they consider themselves English. It's up to them.

I post this only to reinforce the earlier point that UK nationalities in particular are essentially notional, and the idea of 'poaches' is a bit meaningless in this context.

[Tichtheid]

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

Nationality means different things to different people. For some it is an identity and for others it means very little beyond the very basics.

Increasingly now there is a clear business reason why remaining EQ for as long as possible even up to caps is the right thing to do.

P.s totally agree about the working/middle class thing.

It's not always black-and-white - I'm dual national British Irish with an English father and Irish mother but would only ever want to represent England as it was where I was brought up. If both of my parents were Irish I might have had a different perspective.

I can understand a player born in England with Scottish parents would consider themselves Scottish, I can equally understand if they consider themselves English. It's up to them.

I post this only to reinforce the earlier point that UK nationalities in particular are essentially notional, and the idea of 'poaches' is a bit meaningless in this context.

There was an article posted on the Glasgow bored a few days ago about Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, so he had three choices

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... 2qXgSgHZwU


If any of my children played representative sport then I'd love them to play for Scotland (one plays tag rugby, the others have no interest), but at the end of the day if they ran out for England I'd still be there supporting the heck out of them, almost certainly with tears of pride too.

[Tichtheid]

Looks like Embra are getting 8 back from Scotland for Friday - Nel, Sebastian, Skinner, Young, Watson, Healy, Price and Paterson.

The perfect scenario would see Glasgow coming away with all the points in Treviso, leaving them with nothing, and us finally clicking and getting a BP win against Ospreys.


Bulls and Stormers losing wouldn't hurt either - edit - that might prove difficult as they are playing each other

[westport]

Looks like Embra are getting 8 back from Scotland for Friday - Nel, Sebastian, Skinner, Young, Watson, Healy, Price and Paterson.

The perfect scenario would see Glasgow coming away with all the points in Treviso, leaving them with nothing, and us finally clicking and getting a BP win against Ospreys.


Bulls and Stormers losing wouldn't hurt either - edit - that might prove difficult as they are playing each other

Sean has said Mark Bennett is starting this week to bring up his 100

[KingBlairhorn]

Looks like Embra are getting 8 back from Scotland for Friday - Nel, Sebastian, Skinner, Young, Watson, Healy, Price and Paterson.

The perfect scenario would see Glasgow coming away with all the points in Treviso, leaving them with nothing, and us finally clicking and getting a BP win against Ospreys.


Bulls and Stormers losing wouldn't hurt either - edit - that might prove difficult as they are playing each other

There seems to be a concerted effort not to use Nel in this tournament. It may be that he has communicated that he intends to retire at the end of the season or simply that Toonie has recognised having a 50 year old as reserve tighthead is problematic.

If he does retire I really hope he stays on and Edinburgh / Scotland find a place for him in the coaching department somewhere - he must have so much to offer from his experiences.

[Yr Alban]

Yeah I phrased badly but the passport is the key point. I don't think there is anywhere else globally where internal movement is as easy and therefore as likely as Scotland) England/Wales/NI due to passports and language.

What do people expect really? Scotland to just ignore a huge pool of players with real ties next door?

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

Is rugby in Scotland a middle class game? Outside of the FP clubs the one thing I was really struck by when I moved back up as an adult was how "working class" most of the clubs and players seemed to be, or at the very least a very big mix. It seems to me to be a much more mixed bag than England.

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

Slightly confused as to your meaning here. Did you mean you couldn’t understand the motivation of anyone born in Scotland, or with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone other than Scotland? Because that’s where I’m at (Scots parents, born and lived in England until age 13). But different people feel differently about these things.

[Yr Alban]

Nationality means different things to different people. For some it is an identity and for others it means very little beyond the very basics.

Increasingly now there is a clear business reason why remaining EQ for as long as possible even up to caps is the right thing to do.

P.s totally agree about the working/middle class thing.

It's not always black-and-white - I'm dual national British Irish with an English father and Irish mother but would only ever want to represent England as it was where I was brought up. If both of my parents were Irish I might have had a different perspective.

I can understand a player born in England with Scottish parents would consider themselves Scottish, I can equally understand if they consider themselves English. It's up to them.

I post this only to reinforce the earlier point that UK nationalities in particular are essentially notional, and the idea of 'poaches' is a bit meaningless in this context.

There was an article posted on the Glasgow bored a few days ago about Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, so he had three choices

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... 2qXgSgHZwU


If any of my children played representative sport then I'd love them to play for Scotland (one plays tag rugby, the others have no interest), but at the end of the day if they ran out for England I'd still be there supporting the heck out of them, almost certainly with tears of pride too.

Reuben Logan’s an odd one. I wonder if declaring for England is his way of stepping out of both of his parents’ shadow. Don’t understand it myself, but so it goes.

If either of my sons had been good enough at anything to play internationally (which they emphatically weren’t) then Wales was probably more likely than England. I’d have been upset, just like Kenny Logan, but then you can’t tell your kids who they are, and I’d have been there supporting the heck out of them too. (Can’t pretend that all the tears would have been ones of pride though!)

[Slick]

Particularly given that (and I apologise, because I’ve said this all before) rugby in Scotland is a middle-class game (the Borders excepted) and middle-class people are more likely to be professionally mobile and to move where the work is, which in the UK is disproportionately London and the Home Counties. Which leads to a load of young players who are ethnically Scottish who are brought up in England. The best ones are generally picked up by England (look at Fin Smith) but we get to select some of the others - at which point we are criticised for doing it.

The irony is that rugby itself turning professional is now leading to these situations. Cam Redpath was born in France and brought up in England because that’s where Bryan’s career took him.

Is rugby in Scotland a middle class game? Outside of the FP clubs the one thing I was really struck by when I moved back up as an adult was how "working class" most of the clubs and players seemed to be, or at the very least a very big mix. It seems to me to be a much more mixed bag than England.

Also slightly disagree with the bolded bit, I think there is a massive mix of reasons and allegiances. Watson wouldn't have played for anyone else despite not being born here. As someone who grew up in England I find it really difficult to understand the motivation for anyone either born here, or even with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone else, but there is obviously a lot of individual factors.

Slightly confused as to your meaning here. Did you mean you couldn’t understand the motivation of anyone born in Scotland, or with Scottish parents, wanting to play for anyone other than Scotland? Because that’s where I’m at (Scots parents, born and lived in England until age 13). But different people feel differently about these things.

Yes, exactly what I mean

[Big D]

It's not always black-and-white - I'm dual national British Irish with an English father and Irish mother but would only ever want to represent England as it was where I was brought up. If both of my parents were Irish I might have had a different perspective.

I can understand a player born in England with Scottish parents would consider themselves Scottish, I can equally understand if they consider themselves English. It's up to them.

I post this only to reinforce the earlier point that UK nationalities in particular are essentially notional, and the idea of 'poaches' is a bit meaningless in this context.

There was an article posted on the Glasgow bored a few days ago about Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, so he had three choices

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... 2qXgSgHZwU


If any of my children played representative sport then I'd love them to play for Scotland (one plays tag rugby, the others have no interest), but at the end of the day if they ran out for England I'd still be there supporting the heck out of them, almost certainly with tears of pride too.

Reuben Logan’s an odd one. I wonder if declaring for England is his way of stepping out of both of his parents’ shadow. Don’t understand it myself, but so it goes.

If either of my sons had been good enough at anything to play internationally (which they emphatically weren’t) then Wales was probably more likely than England. I’d have been upset, just like Kenny Logan, but then you can’t tell your kids who they are, and I’d have been there supporting the heck out of them too. (Can’t pretend that all the tears would have been ones of pride though!)

Logan is Welsh by grandparent, his English born Mum is Welsh by parentage. At some point the lineage gradually becomes tenuous. If he feels Welsh, what about his kid who isn't eligible for Wales?

For any EQ player playing in England, especially one who has seen a former club go bust, they really should maintain their EQ status for as long as possible unless the SRU/WRU plan to really look after them. And we know thr SRU won't at that age.

Plus at U20 you'd want to be playing at the top table to get experience. No guarantees we will be next season either.

[Tichtheid]

Mark Bennett an Edinburgh centurion, I didn't think he'd been with the club that long - time flies etc.

Regarding Nel, Everitt said his neck is liable to flair up from time to time and he's going through that at the moment, I remember reading that it was his neck that caused him to miss games a couple of weeks ago.

On Logan jnr - the young players in England have to commit to England U20s if they are chosen for the squad, the reality is that they are more likely to get a professional club contract if they do.

[Yr Alban]

Mark Bennett an Edinburgh centurion, I didn't think he'd been with the club that long - time flies etc.

Regarding Nel, Everitt said his neck is liable to flair up from time to time and he's going through that at the moment, I remember reading that it was his neck that caused him to miss games a couple of weeks ago.

On Logan jnr - the young players in England have to commit to England U20s if they are chosen for the squad, the reality is that they are more likely to get a professional club contract if they do.

I have a strong suspicion that Cam Redpath always wanted to play for Scotland, but was obliged to maintain his EQP status, including U20 selection, until he got a proper pro contract from Bath. At which point he appeared in the next squad. The only bit that doesn’t fit is that he was selected for an England summer tour squad, though he withdrew with an injury.

[weegie01]

Mark Bennett an Edinburgh centurion, I didn't think he'd been with the club that long - time flies etc.

Regarding Nel, Everitt said his neck is liable to flair up from time to time and he's going through that at the moment, I remember reading that it was his neck that caused him to miss games a couple of weeks ago.

On Logan jnr - the young players in England have to commit to England U20s if they are chosen for the squad, the reality is that they are more likely to get a professional club contract if they do.

I have a strong suspicion that Cam Redpath always wanted to play for Scotland, but was obliged to maintain his EQP status, including U20 selection, until he got a proper pro contract from Bath. At which point he appeared in the next squad. The only bit that doesn’t fit is that he was selected for an England summer tour squad, though he withdrew with an injury.

His contract at Sale obliged him to go with England if they asked. It is one of the reasons he left for Bath who had no such clause.

I used to work with his grandfather who was not aware of the clause. He was dumbfounded when Cam went to England. Apparently had he gone on that squad there was a gentleman's agreement he would not play. But it would expose him to being part of the England set up which was seen as helping the England recruitment effort.

That seems a bit odd as it meant carrying effectively dead weight on the tour, but that was what I was told.