Kicking off in Israel

[petej]

IDF have previously claimed that the technology they use in their drones etc is extremely sensitive, equipped with night vision and detailed ie they can read logos on peoples t-shirts etc before they kill them. The three cars hit were covered in World Central Kitchen logos plus they had agreed route with IDF and were in a non active combat zone. The IDF literally used the WCK logo on the top of the cars as their targets ... 3 times!

Yeah, I get it. And things like that happen fairly frequently in war zones.

I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but to me, on the balance of probabilities, I don't think it was.

The point being, no one knows at this stage, so to call people incredibly naive for not agreeing is just daft. It's this absolute certainty about "your side" which is just irritating and stupid. As if we are experts in a highly complex situation from our sofas.

Whilst I agree that one can only work on the balance of probability in light of all the info available ... the information here is fairly clear that this was a deliberate strike x3 on an unarmed and clearly identifiable aid convoy which had IDF clearance to travel that route. Whether the attack was sanctioned from the top of the IDF, a local commander or some stupid callous youth sitting miles away with his xbox controller/drone killing machine controller in his hand is still unclear and will need to be ascertained. However it is clear the IDF have broken their own rules of engagement here, at best their chain of command is broken, perhaps they just allow local killing zones or it could even be a coordinated attempt to stop aid charities working in Gazza? If it is the latter then is has certainly worked!

I am so pleased that the UK Gov have had 'strong words' with Israel and Lord Cameron says an investigation into the deaths of aid workers in Gaza must happen "very, very quickly". That'll scare the shit out of Israel and stop the killing!!! However he then goes on to say his Israeli counterpart, Israel Katz, had talked about getting more aid into Gaza - including up to 500 trucks a day but added "We've been promised these things before - this really needs to happen," Duh!

In other news Biden is apparently outraged over the deaths of aid workers but will continue to sell arms to Israel, including 25 F-15s worth $18b.

I wonder if that is stronger words they we have had with Saudi about Yemen or Russia and assorted others in Syria or Qatari's in shovelling vast quantities of cash towards Hamas? The whole region is full of religious dictatorships (israel at best is a flawed democracy with a populist prick in charge), oil, death and destruction, therefore, fucked. Your damned if you do nothing and damned if you do anything. It is deeply depressing with so many trapped in this conflict and others like Yemen and Syria.

[Jockaline]

Jesus.

IDF have previously claimed that the technology they use in their drones etc is extremely sensitive, equipped with night vision and detailed ie they can read logos on peoples t-shirts etc before they kill them. The three cars hit were covered in World Central Kitchen logos plus they had agreed route with IDF and were in a non active combat zone. The IDF literally used the WCK logo on the top of the cars as their targets ... 3 times!

Yeah, I get it. And things like that happen fairly frequently in war zones.

I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but to me, on the balance of probabilities, I don't think it was.

The point being, no one knows at this stage, so to call people incredibly naive for not agreeing is just daft. It's this absolute certainty about "your side" which is just irritating and stupid. As if we are experts in a highly complex situation from our sofas.

I'm on the side of humanity. The side that doesn't kill incidents or heroes doing aid work to prevent mass orchestrated famine. The side that respects international law, and rules of engagement in wars. A side that wants a peaceful world, Israel is far more likely to start WW3, or a least set the seeds, than the war in Ukraine ever could. I'm not on Hamas's side for clarification their actions were evil too - although like Ukraine, I do think that Palestinians have the right to attack it's occupiers, and like Israel to defend itself.

What side are you on?

[Jockaline]

Seems our government is not falling for oops sorry it was a mistake.

[Slick]

IDF have previously claimed that the technology they use in their drones etc is extremely sensitive, equipped with night vision and detailed ie they can read logos on peoples t-shirts etc before they kill them. The three cars hit were covered in World Central Kitchen logos plus they had agreed route with IDF and were in a non active combat zone. The IDF literally used the WCK logo on the top of the cars as their targets ... 3 times!

Yeah, I get it. And things like that happen fairly frequently in war zones.

I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but to me, on the balance of probabilities, I don't think it was.

The point being, no one knows at this stage, so to call people incredibly naive for not agreeing is just daft. It's this absolute certainty about "your side" which is just irritating and stupid. As if we are experts in a highly complex situation from our sofas.

I'm on the side of humanity. The side that doesn't kill incidents or heroes doing aid work to prevent mass orchestrated famine. The side that respects international law, and rules of engagement in wars. A side that wants a peaceful world, Israel is far more likely to start WW3, or a least set the seeds, than the war in Ukraine ever could. I'm not on Hamas's side for clarification their actions were evil too - although like Ukraine, I do think that Palestinians have the right to attack it's occupiers, and like Israel to defend itself.

What side are you on?

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, I think they are both cunts.

[I like neeps]

Seems our government is not falling for oops sorry it was a mistake.

They need to join our allies and restart funding to UNWRA and stop sending weapons really.

I wonder which European country will first suggest sanctions on Israel. We can't be far away.

[Uncle fester]

Seems our government is not falling for oops sorry it was a mistake.

Videos and photos verified by The New York Times suggest the convoy was hit multiple times. The imagery shows three destroyed white vehicles, with the northernmost and southernmost vehicles nearly two and a half kilometres apart.

The World Central Kitchen logo could be seen on items inside the charred interiors of the northernmost and southernmost cars. The car in the middle was left with a gaping hole in its roof, which was clearly marked with the group’s logo. All three vehicles, though far apart from each other, were on or near the Al-Rashid coastal road.

Sorry fellas. It's fairly clear that somebody meant to hit that convoy.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/middle- ... 5fgye.html

In a similar vein, children are accidentally getting shot in the head.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... e-children

[Jockaline]

Seems our government is not falling for oops sorry it was a mistake.

They need to join our allies and restart funding to UNWRA and stop sending weapons really.

I wonder which European country will first suggest sanctions on Israel. We can't be far away.

Agree, the statement re: aid, and UNWRA suspension, doesn't really align.

[Uncle fester]

Absolutely appalling article.
"The AI told us to do it" is going to be their defence.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... dApp_Other

The ratio thing is completely bonkers.

[Uncle fester]

From the BBC ticker.

World Central Kitchen founder Jose Andres has accused Israeli forces in Gaza of targeting the aid workers in a strike that killed seven members of his staff on Monday, "systematically, car by car".

Speaking to Reuters news agency, Andres says that the killing of seven WCK personnel was not a mistake or a misfire, and asserts that the Israelis knew their movements at the time of the attack.

[Ymx]

Absolutely appalling article.
"The AI told us to do it" is going to be their defence.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... dApp_Other

The ratio thing is completely bonkers.

Holy fvck, I actually can’t believe what I’m reading here..

[Ymx]

Israeli intelligence sources reveal use of ‘Lavender’ system in Gaza war and claim permission given to kill civilians in pursuit of low-ranking militants
Bethan McKernan in Jerusalem and Harry Davies
Wed 3 Apr 2024 14.53 BST
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The Israeli military’s bombing campaign in Gaza used a previously undisclosed AI-powered database that at one stage identified 37,000 potential targets based on their apparent links to Hamas, according to intelligence sources involved in the war.

In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict.

Their unusually candid testimony provides a rare glimpse into the first-hand experiences of Israeli intelligence officials who have been using machine-learning systems to help identify targets during the six-month war.

Israel’s use of powerful AI systems in its war on Hamas has entered uncharted territory for advanced warfare, raising a host of legal and moral questions, and transforming the relationship between military personnel and machines.

“This is unparalleled, in my memory,” said one intelligence officer who used Lavender, adding that they had more faith in a “statistical mechanism” than a grieving soldier. “Everyone there, including me, lost people on October 7. The machine did it coldly. And that made it easier.”

Another Lavender user questioned whether humans’ role in the selection process was meaningful. “I would invest 20 seconds for each target at this stage, and do dozens of them every day. I had zero added-value as a human, apart from being a stamp of approval. It saved a lot of time.”

Palestinian children amid debris with items on a trolley
View image in fullscreen
Palestinian children salvage items amid the destruction caused by Israeli bombing in Bureij, central Gaza, on 14 March. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images
The testimony from the six intelligence officers, all who have been involved in using AI systems to identify Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) targets in the war, was given to the journalist Yuval Abraham for a report published by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call.

Their accounts were shared exclusively with the Guardian in advance of publication. All six said that Lavender had played a central role in the war, processing masses of data to rapidly identify potential “junior” operatives to target. Four of the sources said that, at one stage early in the war, Lavender listed as many as 37,000 Palestinian men who had been linked by the AI system to Hamas or PIJ.

Lavender was developed by the Israel Defense Forces’ elite intelligence division, Unit 8200, which is comparable to the US’s National Security Agency or GCHQ in the UK.

Several of the sources described how, for certain categories of targets, the IDF applied pre-authorised allowances for the estimated number of civilians who could be killed before a strike was authorised.

Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants.


“You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people – it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” one intelligence officer said. Another said the principal question they were faced with was whether the “collateral damage” to civilians allowed for an attack.

“Because we usually carried out the attacks with dumb bombs, and that meant literally dropping the whole house on its occupants. But even if an attack is averted, you don’t care – you immediately move on to the next target. Because of the system, the targets never end. You have another 36,000 waiting.”

According to conflict experts, if Israel has been using dumb bombs to flatten the homes of thousands of Palestinians who were linked, with the assistance of AI, to militant groups in Gaza, that could help explain the shockingly high death toll in the war.

The health ministry in the Hamas-run territory says 33,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict in the past six months. UN data shows that in the first month of the war alone, 1,340 families suffered multiple losses, with 312 families losing more than 10 members.

Two Israeli soldiers with weapons stand on the Israeli side of the Israel-Gaza border looking into the Palestinian territory
View image in fullscreen
Israeli soldiers stand on the Israeli side of the Israel-Gaza border surveying the Palestinian territory on 30 March. Photograph: Amir Cohen/Reuters
Responding to the publication of the testimonies in +972 and Local Call, the IDF said in a statement that its operations were carried out in accordance with the rules of proportionality under international law. It said dumb bombs are “standard weaponry” that are used by IDF pilots in a manner that ensures “a high level of precision”.

The statement described Lavender as a database used “to cross-reference intelligence sources, in order to produce up-to-date layers of information on the military operatives of terrorist organisations. This is not a list of confirmed military operatives eligible to attack.

“The IDF does not use an artificial intelligence system that identifies terrorist operatives or tries to predict whether a person is a terrorist,” it added. “Information systems are merely tools for analysts in the target identification process.”

Lavender created a database of tens of thousands of individuals
In earlier military operations conducted by the IDF, producing human targets was often a more labour-intensive process. Multiple sources who described target development in previous wars to the Guardian, said the decision to “incriminate” an individual, or identify them as a legitimate target, would be discussed and then signed off by a legal adviser.

In the weeks and months after 7 October, this model for approving strikes on human targets was dramatically accelerated, according to the sources. As the IDF’s bombardment of Gaza intensified, they said, commanders demanded a continuous pipeline of targets.

“We were constantly being pressured: ‘Bring us more targets.’ They really shouted at us,” said one intelligence officer. “We were told: now we have to fuck up Hamas, no matter what the cost. Whatever you can, you bomb.”

To meet this demand, the IDF came to rely heavily on Lavender to generate a database of individuals judged to have the characteristics of a PIJ or Hamas militant.

Details about the specific kinds of data used to train Lavender’s algorithm, or how the programme reached its conclusions, are not included in the accounts published by +972 or Local Call. However, the sources said that during the first few weeks of the war, Unit 8200 refined Lavender’s algorithm and tweaked its search parameters.

After randomly sampling and cross-checking its predictions, the unit concluded Lavender had achieved a 90% accuracy rate, the sources said, leading the IDF to approve its sweeping use as a target recommendation tool.

Lavender created a database of tens of thousands of individuals who were marked as predominantly low-ranking members of Hamas’s military wing, they added. This was used alongside another AI-based decision support system, called the Gospel, which recommended buildings and structures as targets rather than individuals.

Two Israeli air force F15 fighter jets in the air near the city of Gedera, southern Israel
View image in fullscreen
Two Israeli air force F15 fighter jets near the city of Gedera, southern Israel, on 27 March. Photograph: Abir Sultan/EPA
The accounts include first-hand testimony of how intelligence officers worked with Lavender and how the reach of its dragnet could be adjusted. “At its peak, the system managed to generate 37,000 people as potential human targets,” one of the sources said. “But the numbers changed all the time, because it depends on where you set the bar of what a Hamas operative is.”

They added: “There were times when a Hamas operative was defined more broadly, and then the machine started bringing us all kinds of civil defence personnel, police officers, on whom it would be a shame to waste bombs. They help the Hamas government, but they don’t really endanger soldiers.”

Before the war, US and Israeli estimated membership of Hamas’s military wing at approximately 25-30,000 people.

Destroyed buildings lie below smoke rising after an explosion in the northern Gaza Strip
‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza
Read more
In the weeks after the Hamas-led 7 October assault on southern Israel, in which Palestinian militants killed nearly 1,200 Israelis and kidnapped about 240 people, the sources said there was a decision to treat Palestinian men linked to Hamas’s military wing as potential targets, regardless of their rank or importance.

The IDF’s targeting processes in the most intensive phase of the bombardment were also relaxed, they said. “There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of [bombing] operations,” one source said. “A policy so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge.”

Another source, who justified the use of Lavender to help identify low-ranking targets, said that “when it comes to a junior militant, you don’t want to invest manpower and time in it”. They said that in wartime there was insufficient time to carefully “incriminate every target”.

“So you’re willing to take the margin of error of using artificial intelligence, risking collateral damage and civilians dying, and risking attacking by mistake, and to live with it,” they added.

‘It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home’
The testimonies published by +972 and Local Call may explain how such a western military with such advanced capabilities, with weapons that can conduct highly surgical strikes, has conducted a war with such a vast human toll.

When it came to targeting low-ranking Hamas and PIJ suspects, they said, the preference was to attack when they were believed to be at home. “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” one said. “It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

Relatives cry as bodies of Palestinians killed in Israeli bombings lie outside the morgue
View image in fullscreen
Relatives outside the morgue of the al-Najjar hospital in Rafah mourn Palestinians killed in Israeli bombings on 1 February. Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images
Such a strategy risked higher numbers of civilian casualties, and the sources said the IDF imposed pre-authorised limits on the number of civilians it deemed acceptable to kill in a strike aimed at a single Hamas militant. The ratio was said to have changed over time, and varied according to the seniority of the target.

According to +972 and Local Call, the IDF judged it permissible to kill more than 100 civilians in attacks on a top-ranking Hamas officials. “We had a calculation for how many [civilians could be killed] for the brigade commander, how many [civilians] for a battalion commander, and so on,” one source said.

“There were regulations, but they were just very lenient,” another added. “We’ve killed people with collateral damage in the high double digits, if not low triple digits. These are things that haven’t happened before.” There appears to have been significant fluctuations in the figure that military commanders would tolerate at different stages of the war.

One source said that the limit on permitted civilian casualties “went up and down” over time, and at one point was as low as five. During the first week of the conflict, the source said, permission was given to kill 15 non-combatants to take out junior militants in Gaza. However, they said estimates of civilian casualties were imprecise, as it was not possible to know definitively how many people were in a building.

Another intelligence officer said that more recently in the conflict, the rate of permitted collateral damage was brought down again. But at one stage earlier in the war they were authorised to kill up to “20 uninvolved civilians” for a single operative, regardless of their rank, military importance, or age.

“It’s not just that you can kill any person who is a Hamas soldier, which is clearly permitted and legitimate in terms of international law,” they said. “But they directly tell you: ‘You are allowed to kill them along with many civilians.’ … In practice, the proportionality criterion did not exist.”

The IDF statement said its procedures “require conducting an individual assessment of the anticipated military advantage and collateral damage expected … The IDF does not carry out strikes when the expected collateral damage from the strike is excessive in relation to the military advantage.” It added: “The IDF outright rejects the claim regarding any policy to kill tens of thousands of people in their homes.”

Experts in international humanitarian law who spoke to the Guardian expressed alarm at accounts of the IDF accepting and pre-authorising collateral damage ratios as high as 20 civilians, particularly for lower-ranking militants. They said militaries must assess proportionality for each individual strike.

Smoke rises over the Gaza Strip, as seen from from the Israeli side of the border
View image in fullscreen
Smoke rises over the Gaza Strip, as seen from from the Israeli side of the border on 21 January. Photograph: Amir Levy/Getty Images
An international law expert at the US state department said they had “never remotely heard of a one to 15 ratio being deemed acceptable, especially for lower-level combatants. There’s a lot of leeway, but that strikes me as extreme”.

Sarah Harrison, a former lawyer at the US Department of Defense, now an analyst at Crisis Group, said: “While there may be certain occasions where 15 collateral civilian deaths could be proportionate, there are other times where it definitely wouldn’t be. You can’t just set a tolerable number for a category of targets and say that it’ll be lawfully proportionate in each case.”

Whatever the legal or moral justification for Israel’s bombing strategy, some of its intelligence officers appear now to be questioning the approach set by their commanders. “No one thought about what to do afterward, when the war is over, or how it will be possible to live in Gaza,” one said.

Another said that after the 7 October attacks by Hamas, the atmosphere in the IDF was “painful and vindictive”. “There was a dissonance: on the one hand, people here were frustrated that we were not attacking enough. On the other hand, you see at the end of the day that another thousand Gazans have died, most of them civilians.”

Hamas identified by an AI algorithm.

Not by matching individuals, but by actually who looks like a Hamas militant.

I can’t have read that right .

[Ymx]

This part

To meet this demand, the IDF came to rely heavily on Lavender to generate a database of individuals judged to have the characteristics of a PIJ or Hamas militant.

[Hugo]

Absolutely appalling article.
"The AI told us to do it" is going to be their defence.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... dApp_Other

The ratio thing is completely bonkers.

It is - 15 innocents for one low level Hamas fighter. Nuts.

As for the bombing of homes with dumb bombs. They said its their preference to kill them when they are at home, thus ensuring other civilian deaths. Again, its insane. Their calculus that the low level operatives aren't worth expensive bombs but they are worthy of killing 15 civilians over is interesting, for want of a better way of describing it.

[Flockwitt]

It’s war. It’s shit. There were/are certainly the same decisions regards ‘acceptable’ civilian casualties made with the USAs constant drone strikes with ISIS et al.

[Hugo]

Its actually terrorism.

[Flockwitt]

Its actually terrorism.

No such word - depending on which side you are on.

[Hugo]

Its quite obviously terrorism.

If Muslims were killing western civilians in these numbers and with such disregard for the lives of innocents/noncombatants it would be called terrorism.

[Flockwitt]

Its quite obviously terrorism.

If Muslims were killing western civilians in these numbers and with such disregard for the lives of innocents/noncombatants it would be called terrorism.

Americans have been doing the same for decades. Who is calling it terrorism?

[Tilly Orifice]

It’s war. It’s shit. There were/are certainly the same decisions regards ‘acceptable’ civilian casualties made with the USAs constant drone strikes with ISIS et al.

I hate it when people say this. It's true enough, but it's used to excuse and dismiss everything.

[Flockwitt]

It’s war. It’s shit. There were/are certainly the same decisions regards ‘acceptable’ civilian casualties made with the USAs constant drone strikes with ISIS et al.

I hate it when people say this. It's true enough, but it's used to excuse and dismiss everything.

Who is excusing the right wing a-holes who are running this war? Empowered pricks who are the problem not the solution. Nobody has yet to convince me Israeli intelligence wasn’t aware that the rocket attack was going to happen.

[Hugo]

Its quite obviously terrorism.

If Muslims were killing western civilians in these numbers and with such disregard for the lives of innocents/noncombatants it would be called terrorism.

Americans have been doing the same for decades. Who is calling it terrorism?

Presumably the victims?

One would assume that Muslims can be victims of terrorism as well as perpetrators of acts of terrorism. Otherwise the term has been used in a rather myopic, self serving fashion.

[Tilly Orifice]

It’s war. It’s shit. There were/are certainly the same decisions regards ‘acceptable’ civilian casualties made with the USAs constant drone strikes with ISIS et al.

I hate it when people say this. It's true enough, but it's used to excuse and dismiss everything.

Who is excusing the right wing a-holes who are running this war? Empowered pricks who are the problem not the solution. Nobody has yet to convince me Israeli intelligence wasn’t aware that the rocket attack was going to happen.

Completely agree.
It was more a comment on the number of times you hear something like, "This is a war crime" "Well, war is hell".

[C69]

I don't think Israel will get away with kicking these aid deaths into the long grass.
The former head of the aid agency which has also helped Israeli civilians in the past has called these deliberate targeted strikes.
The military achievements of the dead are being heavy pressed in the UK MSM and the zeitgeist seems to have had a seismic shift.
3 dead Brits seems to be a big turning point after thousands of fatalities inflicted by the IDF.
Israeli spokesman and women had better show some contrition and realise they need to be less cavalier.

[I like neeps]

Its quite obviously terrorism.

If Muslims were killing western civilians in these numbers and with such disregard for the lives of innocents/noncombatants it would be called terrorism.

Americans have been doing the same for decades. Who is calling it terrorism?

America's enemies have been...

If Israel wasn't an ally of the US you better believe Uncle Sam and the world police would have slapped down huge sanctions by now, if not got invovled militarily to enforce their "rules based international order".

Modern warfare is very much it's okay if the US does it or is involved because they're the biggest bully in the schoolyard. That's why Biden is the most important figure in the shooting of fish in a barrel that this war in Gaza actually is. He could end it tomorrow... if he wanted to.

[Slick]

Its quite obviously terrorism.

If Muslims were killing western civilians in these numbers and with such disregard for the lives of innocents/noncombatants it would be called terrorism.

Americans have been doing the same for decades. Who is calling it terrorism?

America's enemies have been...

If Israel wasn't an ally of the US you better believe Uncle Sam and the world police would have slapped down huge sanctions by now, if not got invovled militarily to enforce their "rules based international order".

Modern warfare is very much it's okay if the US does it or is involved because they're the biggest bully in the schoolyard. That's why Biden is the most important figure in the shooting of fish in a barrel that this war in Gaza actually is. He could end it tomorrow... if he wanted to.

Votes, innit.

[C69]

So the Aid workers death investigation is being carried out by err representatives of Israel an "independent professional body"
Pmsl
I bet if HAMAS appointed an independent professional body from Hamas' ranks they would be rightly laughed at.

[Hugo]

So the Aid workers death investigation is being carried out by err representatives of Israel an "independent professional body"
Pmsl
I bet if HAMAS appointed an independent professional body from Hamas' ranks they would be rightly laughed at.

The investigation was always going to amount to nothing. At most it'll be "whoops we made a mistake, shit happens".

[Guy Smiley]

So the Aid workers death investigation is being carried out by err representatives of Israel an "independent professional body"
Pmsl
I bet if HAMAS appointed an independent professional body from Hamas' ranks they would be rightly laughed at.

The investigation was always going to amount to nothing. At most it'll be "whoops we made a mistake, shit happens".

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

[Slick]

So the Aid workers death investigation is being carried out by err representatives of Israel an "independent professional body"
Pmsl
I bet if HAMAS appointed an independent professional body from Hamas' ranks they would be rightly laughed at.

Kirsty Wark skewered them on this on Newsnight last night. The spokesman was laughable, they don’t fucking care

[Uncle fester]

The Israeli ambassador to Poland has kicked off a right diplomatic spat by going off on an unhinged rant in response to demands for an investigation.

None of this should be a surprise. Remember their behavior with the murder of Shireen Abu Akleh, who was a US citizen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_o ... prov=sfla1

[lemonhead]

So the Aid workers death investigation is being carried out by err representatives of Israel an "independent professional body"
Pmsl
I bet if HAMAS appointed an independent professional body from Hamas' ranks they would be rightly laughed at.

The investigation was always going to amount to nothing. At most it'll be "whoops we made a mistake, shit happens".

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

All news is local and we have a responsibility to our own citizens, so when Israel starts murdering our citizens it is naturally a bigger thing to us (which is distinct from it being a bigger thing)

[Ymx]

I must admit I’m struggling to be comfortable with this Lavender AI deciding who is Hamas.

Is it as crude as fighting age male, Palestinian?

Or is it accessing their bank transactions and social media ? Location data, etc?

The way it was explained in that Gaurdian article left me gobsmacked.

[Ymx]

This guy is not a fan of the protest crew.

Think I’ve heard of him before.

Worth a watch as to how he paints the ordinary in Gaza.

[Ymx]

A fvck up.



Apparently has a logo on top WCK but they were claiming they couldn’t see because it was midnight.

[C69]

A fvck up.



Apparently has a logo on top WCK but they were claiming they couldn’t see because it was midnight.

Seems legit. No combative force in the World uses tech to nable night vision.

[Jockaline]

I must admit I’m struggling to be comfortable with this Lavender AI deciding who is Hamas.

Is it as crude as fighting age male, Palestinian?

Or is it accessing their bank transactions and social media ? Location data, etc?

The way it was explained in that Gaurdian article left me gobsmacked.

Glad to see your questioning stuff now. I'm guessing it might be as you say fighting aged men, but even if it isn't they are using dumb bombs when they are home that's always likely to kill many others too..

[Hugo]

I must admit I’m struggling to be comfortable with this Lavender AI deciding who is Hamas.

Is it as crude as fighting age male, Palestinian?

Or is it accessing their bank transactions and social media ? Location data, etc?

The way it was explained in that Gaurdian article left me gobsmacked.

Glad to see your questioning stuff now. I'm guessing it might be as you say fighting aged men, but even if it isn't they are using dumb bombs when they are home that's always likely to kill many others too..

Indeed, basically if you are related to, or live with a fighting age person your home is likely to be bombed. I'm sure that covers a solid majority of the population. There's nothing surgical or forensic about Israel's methods.

[Hugo]

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Great points by both you and Guy Smiley here.

Just to add, the most dispiriting thing for me is to realise how the Holocaust was effected. From the first time I ever heard about it I wondered how the mass of German society were able to go along with Hitler's Final Solution. Didn't it trouble people's consciences to be participating in mass murder or was Hitler's rhetoric just that seductive?

The reality seems to be pretty mundane, Germans went along with it because it was easier to swim with the tide and as long as they weren't Jews it did not unduly inconvenience them. Apathy and a lack of solidarity/compassion for people who don't look exactly like you (or believe in the same God) is enough to do the job. You don't need fanatics, just disinterested people who can co-exist with evil as long as they are not on the receiving end.

[Tichtheid]

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Great points by both you and Guy Smiley here.

Just to add, the most dispiriting thing for me is to realise how the Holocaust was effected. From the first time I ever heard about it I wondered how the mass of German society were able to go along with Hitler's Final Solution. Didn't it trouble people's consciences to be participating in mass murder or was Hitler's rhetoric just that seductive?

The reality seems to be pretty mundane, Germans went along with it because it was easier to swim with the tide and as long as they weren't Jews it did not unduly inconvenience them. Apathy and a lack of solidarity/compassion for people who don't look exactly like you (or believe in the same God) is enough to do the job. You don't need fanatics, just disinterested people who can co-exist with evil as long as they are not on the receiving end.

Which is the theme in Pastor Niemöller's famous words, "First they came for the Socialists....etc"