Climate Change - Why don't we care?

[Calculon]

IIRC manufacturing wagess in China are higher than in some Western European countries

According to one of the factories we work with they pay appx 250 usd (in the provinces)

factories manufacturing what, and which provinces? that's below the mininum wage for most of China

[Tichtheid]

IIRC manufacturing wagess in China are higher than in some Western European countries

There are some cases where that is true, https://reshoringinstitute.org/wp-conte ... risons.pdf

but in the example I gave £179

versus £6, 499

These aren't the same guitars made to the same standards, but there is market in the west for counterfeit products of whatever shape or form, you see guys in Oxford St in London selling "designer" handbags and perfumes etc

I've just had a look at the website of a local suppler and the wood to make those guitars would cost me £220, that's before any of the hardware which would cost around another £1000 if I wanted the real things. You just cannot produce a guitar for less than two hundred quid if you are paying top dollar for manufacturing.

Container ships to Europe from China stop off in Africa on the way back and load up with tropical hardwoods which are then used to make junk to bring back in those same ships in Europe and elsewhere.

I think this guitar example is bit silly. $179 vs $6k - no-one looking to buy either will be even in the same galaxy, let alone marketplace.

Rather compare knockoff trainers at $25 vs $100 for the real thing. Or handbags.

Handbags can be crazy, a Birkin bag can cost $200k!

but that is losing the point, which is about the effect on climate change brought about by destructive consumerism and aspirational branding and value v price and commodification and use of endangered resources to make junk counterfeit items, and sometimes they are not junk - my uncle used to import sportswear, this stuff was made in the same factory as a market leading brand using the exact same materials, it was only at the end of production line that half of it went one way to be embroidered with one logo and the other went to have a different one put on. The famous brand stuff sold for around four times the price of the other one, I mean wtaf?

Going back to guitars, whilst publicly the Gibson brand called on the US government to crack down on the importing of fakes, there was a feeling in the guitar world that they weren't too bothered because they made a good few dollars in selling the hardware to people to upgrade their fakes with real Gibson pickups etc, and those who could afford the real thing would buy it anyway.

Guitar people are crazy, there is a market for vintage guitars - that one I linked to has a particular "golden year" of manufacture, 1959. Originals from that era can set you back a quarter of a million pounds and up toward half a million. The manufacturers saw there was a market opening there and started selling "aged" guitars, by this they mean deliberately damaged to look old, this can be anything from a few dents and scrapes to purposely getting the varnish to fade and crack, so it looks 60 years old. These guitars, which are brand new, sell for three to four times the price of one that came off the same production line on the same day, but was left looking brand new.
Again, I've gone into the detail to illustrate a point - the madness of this consumerist, instant gratification bullshit

[epwc]

factories manufacturing what, and which provinces? that's below the mininum wage for most of China

Clothing, I have no idea what minimum wage is. The factory that told me was illustrating the advantage of manufacturing in Myanmar, the owner said in China they pay 250USD/MONTH in Myanmar 150USD/Month. They make for Inditex, Next and most major high street retailers. We're small fry and don't have a need for independent auditors but any major retailer will have, and the factory have the SMETA audits on display.

Their office is just south of Shanghai, no idea where they make the stuff.

[epwc]

but that is losing the point, which is about the effect on climate change brought about by destructive consumerism and aspirational branding and value v price and commodification and use of endangered resources to make junk counterfeit items, and sometimes they are not junk - my uncle used to import sportswear, this stuff was made in the same factory as a market leading brand using the exact same materials, it was only at the end of production line that half of it went one way to be embroidered with one logo and the other went to have a different one put on. The famous brand stuff sold for around four times the price of the other one, I mean wtaf?

Going back to guitars, whilst publicly the Gibson brand called on the US government to crack down on the importing of fakes, there was a feeling in the guitar world that they weren't too bothered because they made a good few dollars in selling the hardware to people to upgrade their fakes with real Gibson pickups etc, and those who could afford the real thing would buy it anyway.

Guitar people are crazy, there is a market for vintage guitars - that one I linked to has a particular "golden year" of manufacture, 1959. Originals from that era can set you back a quarter of a million pounds and up toward half a million. The manufacturers saw there was a market opening there and started selling "aged" guitars, by this they mean deliberately damaged to look old, this can be anything from a few dents and scrapes to purposely getting the varnish to fade and crack, so it looks 60 years old. These guitars, which are brand new, sell for three to four times the price of one that came off the same production line on the same day, but was left looking brand new.
Again, I've gone into the detail to illustrate a point - the madness of this consumerist, instant gratification bullshit

Agree with all of that, we used to be pretty much 95% UK priduction at a time when most of our customers were big retailers. Markup varied hugely, so on a dress that we charged £10 for:

River Island £30
Jane Norman: £45
Top Shop £50
Lipsy £55
Guess £110

[Tichtheid]

Not sure they would use expensive tropical hardwoods to make junk tbh. The Chinese can make high quality (and expensive) products too you know. They can also make counterfeit products that are of identical quality but a fraction of the price of the real thing, i suspect these come from the same factories. they also make counterfeit that is much cheaper than the real prodcut, but still quite pricey, and absolute shit quality

I can assure you they do, they slice the tropical hardwoods into veneers and cover cheaper wood with it to make it look like solid mahogany.

The big brands do the same thing with their cheaper models

[Niegs]

Some good points in the comments too... one on this quote: "I wish we could take the word 'recycling' out of this equation and just talk about consumption and waste, as if there was no recycling. Because it has enabled some of the worst behavior I have ever seen."

And the other referencing the days when drinks industry (milk, soft drinks) took care of their own bottles. I remember a science podcast a year or two ago about waste where a researcher looked at the impact of the old bottle method vs modern plastics. Of course, far less impact on bottles. But the cost to corporations is higher.

[epwc]

Recycling of plastics is potentially highly valuable once there’s a system that involves unsegregated input into bioreactors. It’ll happen, in the meantime people just need to buy better,.

packaging free and biodegradable, good in use too:

https://www.spontex.co.uk/product/unwra ... e-scourer/

[epwc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx778nq0jzyo

I’d imagine there’s plenty of places in the UK that could suffer similar fates.

[Niegs]

Related...

[epwc]

Why do we all love SUVs?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... data-shows

[Niegs]

Why do we all love SUVs?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... data-shows

Lack of choice? Perception of mote space for all our needs?

We're seeing imports of tiny RHD Japanese vehicles and I find the tiny vans adorable! I do actually have the 'need' for offroading given my MTB and canoeing hobbies but I will not buy a large truck or misleading crossover. I think I want a small Suzuki Jimny!

[epwc]

The Jimmy does look good

[Tichtheid]

The Jimny looks like a miniature G wagon, unfortunately it's only got two seats, on the plus side you could buy two and they still would be less than half the cost of the entry-level Merc.

[Sandstorm]

The Jimny looks like a miniature G wagon, unfortunately it's only got two seats, on the plus side you could buy two and they still would be less than half the cost of the entry-level Merc.

But its CO2 rating is appalling

[Tichtheid]

The Jimny looks like a miniature G wagon, unfortunately it's only got two seats, on the plus side you could buy two and they still would be less than half the cost of the entry-level Merc.

But its CO2 rating is appalling

Are you suggesting the Jimny should be called the Chimney?

[Niegs]

The Jimny looks like a miniature G wagon, unfortunately it's only got two seats, on the plus side you could buy two and they still would be less than half the cost of the entry-level Merc.

But its CO2 rating is appalling

Can you explain the CO2 rating thing? Someone said bigger vehicles are the norm as they pass... but how?

[Guy Smiley]

The Jimny looks like a miniature G wagon, unfortunately it's only got two seats, on the plus side you could buy two and they still would be less than half the cost of the entry-level Merc.

But its CO2 rating is appalling

Are you suggesting the Jimny should be called the Chimney?

[Guy Smiley]

Why do we all love SUVs?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... data-shows

there's a space race (of sorts) on the roads. Larger vehicles impart a feeling of safety, we like to sit higher so we can see around the other large vehicles on the roads. I think (as the article mentions) there's also a status value attached to larger vehicles. Here in NZ and Australia, we see a love affair with 4WD utility vehicles (utes) that emulates that associated with the USA pick up truck. The models are given aggressive names (Raptor, SR5, Adventura ffs) that appeal to the rugged, masculine urge that infests the suburban commute. Governments offer tax reduction loop holes for 'work vehicles' that apply to the damned things.

[Niegs]

Why do we all love SUVs?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... data-shows

there's a space race (of sorts) on the roads. Larger vehicles impart a feeling of safety, we like to sit higher so we can see around the other large vehicles on the roads. I think (as the article mentions) there's also a status value attached to larger vehicles. Here in NZ and Australia, we see a love affair with 4WD utility vehicles (utes) that emulates that associated with the USA pick up truck. The models are given aggressive names (Raptor, SR5, Adventura ffs) that appeal to the rugged, masculine urge that infests the suburban commute. Governments offer tax reduction loop holes for 'work vehicles' that apply to the damned things.

Yeah, just ridiculous how aggressive these grills are...


... the Simpsons came out with this when there was, what, maybe Hummers in 1997/98? Chevy Suburban is probably what this is making fun of? But as people in the comments are saying, that's most trucks on the road these days and larger SUVs are probably wider than the old Suburban?

[Sandstorm]

1st of June tomorrow and I'm arguing with the wife whether she should put the heating on today!! Climate Change indeed.

[Guy Smiley]

1st of June tomorrow and I'm arguing with the wife whether she should put the heating on today!! Climate Change indeed.

Are you suggesting you're experiencing unseasonal weather?

Is your... climate,

not in its usual pattern?

[Sandstorm]

1st of June tomorrow and I'm arguing with the wife whether she should put the heating on today!! Climate Change indeed.

Are you suggesting you're experiencing unseasonal weather?

Is your... climate,

not in its usual pattern?

Yes. All of those things. They’re a disaster (for my wallet)

[Hal Jordan]

Indian heatwave is terrible, getting close to 53 degree, that's apparently Death Valley temperatures. They're having elections and it appears 18 polling station staff have died sue to the heat.

Anyone who thinks that we have a problem with refugees now is in for a nasty shock, I fear.

[Guy Smiley]

Indian heatwave is terrible, getting close to 53 degree, that's apparently Death Valley temperatures. They're having elections and it appears 18 polling station staff have died sue to the heat.

Anyone who thinks that we have a problem with refugees now is in for a nasty shock, I fear.

That heatwave has been hovering over a wide swathe of Southern Asia for a month or so... temps across the region from Pakistan through to Vietnam have been extremely high. Years ago I saw a graphic that featured a map of the world with a highlighted circle centred on that same region with the title that there were more people living inside the circle than outside of it. Those people rely on the Himalaya for their fresh water supply... and the ice cap in that range is retreating.


ah... found it

[Tilly Orifice]

I live in the precise centre of that circle.

[David in Gwent]

May in the UK was the hottest on record.

LOL.

[epwc]

Yeah, hilarious

[inactionman]

and it was ridiculously wet as well.

Farmers losing crops is not ideal.

[David in Gwent]

Yeah, hilarious

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

[sefton]

Yeah, hilarious

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

[David in Gwent]

Yeah, hilarious

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

Fuck off, Mr Establishment.

[sefton]

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

Fuck off, Mr Establishment.

Yes, the scientific establishment.

[Guy Smiley]

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

Fuck off, Mr Establishment.

And there it is...

dismissing everything because it represents 'the establishment' is foolish... and our shared history going back years suggests that is in fact, exactly what you do DAC. You've been on the wrong side of pretty much every 'alternative' viewpoint there is including Covid and vaccines but there's more forgotten like the dust of so many dire predictions...

it's an immature stance. Reject The Man for no sound reason other than it's The Man. You've got to be able to suspend reaction and consider the sheer weight of evidence but like so many others, you stick with your own preference bolstered by the inevitable bubble produced by algorithms and search histories.

We are well past the point of debating the reality of climate change. It's fucking real. We are now at the stage of deciding how much damage we're going to allow it to cause and the signs aren't good. Of course we're being gaslit...

gaslit by that small group of extremely well resourced corporates that stand to gain most by prolonging the shift away from fossil fuel production... and they are doing that by preying on the vulnerable, like yourself, who are susceptible to false arguments about stability and economic threats while decreasing sea ice, glacier coverage and crop productivity couple with increasing ferocity of storms and atmospheric moisture content paint a stark picture of change whether or not you choose to believe.

[Calculon]

factories manufacturing what, and which provinces? that's below the mininum wage for most of China

Clothing, I have no idea what minimum wage is. The factory that told me was illustrating the advantage of manufacturing in Myanmar, the owner said in China they pay 250USD/MONTH in Myanmar 150USD/Month. They make for Inditex, Next and most major high street retailers. We're small fry and don't have a need for independent auditors but any major retailer will have, and the factory have the SMETA audits on display.

Their office is just south of Shanghai, no idea where they make the stuff.

Ah, OK, well definitely not in Shanghai. Maybe they make it in Xinjiang, think it has one of the lowest minimum wages in China and I also think they make lots of clothing there.

[Slick]

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

Fuck off, Mr Establishment.

And there it is...

dismissing everything because it represents 'the establishment' is foolish... and our shared history going back years suggests that is in fact, exactly what you do DAC. You've been on the wrong side of pretty much every 'alternative' viewpoint there is including Covid and vaccines but there's more forgotten like the dust of so many dire predictions...

it's an immature stance. Reject The Man for no sound reason other than it's The Man. You've got to be able to suspend reaction and consider the sheer weight of evidence but like so many others, you stick with your own preference bolstered by the inevitable bubble produced by algorithms and search histories.

We are well past the point of debating the reality of climate change. It's fucking real. We are now at the stage of deciding how much damage we're going to allow it to cause and the signs aren't good. Of course we're being gaslit...

gaslit by that small group of extremely well resourced corporates that stand to gain most by prolonging the shift away from fossil fuel production... and they are doing that by preying on the vulnerable, like yourself, who are susceptible to false arguments about stability and economic threats while decreasing sea ice, glacier coverage and crop productivity couple with increasing ferocity of storms and atmospheric moisture content paint a stark picture of change whether or not you choose to believe.

[David in Gwent]

Greenpeace co-founder, Dr. Patrick Moore: "The scientific method has not been applied in such a way as to prove that carbon dioxide is causing the Earth to warm."

"I am firmly of the belief that the future will show that this whole hysteria over climate change was a complete fabrication."

https://x.com/wideawake_media/status/17 ... 3074829509

[David in Gwent]

Double post.

[Tichtheid]

There should be some degree of responsibility in posting.

Dr Moore was not a co-founder of Greenpeace, as claimed by that ridiculous wide awake media (I mean, ffs, it’s not even funny calling themselves that - they might as well call themselves “do your own research”)

Greenpeace have completely disowned him and in doing so pointed out that he's been a paid spokesman for many polluting industries for many years, including timber, mining, chemical and aquaculture industries

[epwc]

Facts mean nothing nowadays, people like DAC know what's really going on.

[Biffer]

We're being gaslit, that's why I find it funny.

You’ve spent your life being gaslit and you don’t even know it.

Fuck off, Mr Establishment.

That's what this fella said

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65934887