UK Post Office Scandal

[David in Gwent]

Where did all of the missing money go? Where did it end up? Has that question even been asked?

[inactionman]

Where did all of the missing money go? Where did it end up? Has that question even been asked?

It's not missing.

[fishfoodie]

She was CEO, she bears responsibility. If she ran an organisation that was inadequate, it's her responsibility. If there was no trust, it's her responsibility. If there was a fear of reporting problems, it's her responsibility. If there was a cover up, it's her responsibility (even if she didn't know about it). People spent time in prison, were financially ruined, and driven to suicide or early death and she bears responsibility for that. Not all the responsibility, but a significant chunk.

Yep - but egregiously and callously ignoring stated issues with no consideration of ruined lives simply for her own career benefit is a much, much more glaring and odious offence than simply being shit at her job.


(eta: I'm stating that she's bang to rights any which way up, but if she's been in any way cynical then we need to throw away the key.)

Yeah, but what for, is the difficulty. We can't just lock people up without charge. Although there were deaths, it'd be very difficult to get a corporate manslaughter charge in these circumstances. Does it count as a public office where there would be some kind of abuse of function charge? Or Corporate Fraud where there's an intent to defraud creditors? It's difficult to see just where it fits - and I think a lot of it would result in fines for the business rather than individual prosecutions, which would then just mean the taxpayer footing the bill.

Malicious prosecution !

She & others could have, & should have know that the evidence on which these people were prosecuted was hopelessly flawed, & yet they ploughed on.

[sturginho]

Yep - but egregiously and callously ignoring stated issues with no consideration of ruined lives simply for her own career benefit is a much, much more glaring and odious offence than simply being shit at her job.


(eta: I'm stating that she's bang to rights any which way up, but if she's been in any way cynical then we need to throw away the key.)

Yeah, but what for, is the difficulty. We can't just lock people up without charge. Although there were deaths, it'd be very difficult to get a corporate manslaughter charge in these circumstances. Does it count as a public office where there would be some kind of abuse of function charge? Or Corporate Fraud where there's an intent to defraud creditors? It's difficult to see just where it fits - and I think a lot of it would result in fines for the business rather than individual prosecutions, which would then just mean the taxpayer footing the bill.

Malicious prosecution !

She & others could have, & should have know that the evidence on which these people were prosecuted was hopelessly flawed, & yet they ploughed on.

is that a criminal offence?

[fishfoodie]

Yeah, but what for, is the difficulty. We can't just lock people up without charge. Although there were deaths, it'd be very difficult to get a corporate manslaughter charge in these circumstances. Does it count as a public office where there would be some kind of abuse of function charge? Or Corporate Fraud where there's an intent to defraud creditors? It's difficult to see just where it fits - and I think a lot of it would result in fines for the business rather than individual prosecutions, which would then just mean the taxpayer footing the bill.

Malicious prosecution !

She & others could have, & should have know that the evidence on which these people were prosecuted was hopelessly flawed, & yet they ploughed on.

is that a criminal offence?

It is in Ireland, & we basically inherited English law

[epwc]

Whatever happens it'll take forever:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pp46z93k6o

[Slick]

Her life is totally f*cking over as she knows it.

To me, the most disingenuous part of her statement this morning is that she did not know the PO ran its own investigatory/prosecutory department. Utterly implausible when prosecutions had been receiving national publicity.

I was watching a text feed thing and it said "People laugh" after she had said that

[sturginho]

Whatever happens it'll take forever:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pp46z93k6o

I though Rees Mogg had already established that it was all the victims' fault?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

There is a long tradition of senior execs in government organisations slopey shouldering all responsibility and claiming they don't really know anything about anything in their own organisaton when under fire. Paula Vennells did the same when in front of the HoC. Dido Harding also pulled the "I don't really know how my organisation works' stunt at least twice when giving evidence to the HoC.

They are useless, they are liars or they are useless liars.

I think this is a general failing in British senior management culture, to be honest. Bluffers go far and never have to bear responsibility.

On that note, Vennells giving evidence today.

She's claiming she didn't know but accepts others did know - about failed prosecutions, about reported problems, about anything that might have given a rational, attentive person pause for thought.

Much as I don't like seeing someone breaking down in tears, it was her job to know and many people's lives were ruined because of her ignorance - if we take her claims of ignorance at face value.

If she did know that the prosecutions were unsafe but didn't care enough to act, she needs to go to prison.

I'm not taking her claims of ignorance at face value. She's lying through her teeth.

if it walks like a duck etc.

[Enzedder]

I'm not taking her claims of ignorance at face value. She's lying through her teeth.

if it walks like a duck etc.

I can smell the jalopy from here. Burn the witch.

[Insane_Homer]

She's really really really sorry she got caught lying.

[Blackmac]

Fucking annoying that Vennell's humiliation will be buried in the avalanche of election bullshit over the next few weeks.

[petej]

Where did all of the missing money go? Where did it end up? Has that question even been asked?

It's not missing.

There never was missing money but a lot of people covered the false short fall with their own money and where did that money go?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Where did all of the missing money go? Where did it end up? Has that question even been asked?

It's not missing.

There never was missing money but a lot of people covered the false short fall with their own money and where did that money go?

In to the Post Office coffers

[Waudbee]

Fucking annoying that Vennell's humiliation will be buried in the avalanche of election bullshit over the next few weeks.

With the infected blood scandal and the PO scandal ( and Vennalls was awful today) they must have realised that things will only get worse if they didn't fire the starting pistol today.

[SaintK]

Just seen some of the cross examination of Vennells by lawyers representing postmaster groups.
Bloody hell they are not holding back. She is being hammered..........deservedly so!!!

[SaintK]

[Hellraiser]

Private Eye have been on this for years and deserve great credit. Awful situation

Yes, the Eye have been on it for at least 15 years
Vennell's didn't even apologise until last year. What a good Christian she is, wrecking 100's of lives...........deliberately!

When the Rev Paula Vennells stepped down as chief executive of the Post Office in February 2019, she walked away nearly £5m richer.
As Vennells made for the exit, hundreds of loyal employees were still falsely branded thieves by the business that many of them had given their lives to.
Under the seven-year leadership of Vennells, an Anglican minister, the Post Office had relentlessly pursued subpostmasters and subpostmistresses for alleged offences such as theft and false accounting.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... -vennells

If religion had any real morality Vennells would be excommunicated. I fucking hate any assumption of people being good or bad due them being religious.

It's impossible to be excommunicated from the CofE.

[Waudbee]

Just seen some of the cross examination of Vennells by lawyers representing postmaster groups.
Bloody hell they are not holding back. She is being hammered..........deservedly so!!!

She's lying through her back teeth the despicable jobsworth. How she can carry on doing this with the evidence being put in front of her on a screen is galling to say the least. She should be prosecuted.

[SomersetJock]

In fairness I only found out that the Post Office could carry out their own prosecutions earlier this year when the Drama came out !

In my defence I’ve never worked for the PO nevermind been CEO of it !

She is lying through her teeth and it’s time the defence of “I can’t recall” or “I didn’t know that” was punished as harshly as “I did wrong” when it comes to people in positions of power whose job it is to remember or to know !

Hopefully if criminal proceedings do happen she loses half the money she was gifted for doing a “good job” of running the post office in legal fees, and the other half is confiscated as it was obtained by committing a crime !

[SaintK]

Hopefully some of theses bastards will eventually get what they so richly deserve!

Police are planning to deploy 80 detectives for their criminal inquiry into the Post Office scandal, the Guardian has learned, but victims will face a long wait to discover if charges will follow.
The investigation will examine potential offences of perjury, and perverting the course of justice by Post Office senior leaders as well as the tech company Fujitsu.

https://www.theguardian.com/business ... l-inquiry

[Kiwias]

Watching Jason Beer questioning one of the PO barristers who is rocking side to side all the time he is either listening to or answering questions. I can't stop wishing someone would bitch slap him and tell him to sit still.

[inactionman]

Gareth Jenkins giving evidence today, and for the next 3 days. He's one of the technical specialists behind it, so specialist he couldn't see the glaring holes

I suspect he's not going to have a very fun week

Hes also been curiously unrepentant, I'm wondering if he needs to continue bluffing on that he saw no problem with horizon to save himself from perjury.

Anyway, this tickled me on the Beebs live reporting:

There's a brief pause as Beer realises Jenkins is being troubled by a fly which is buzzing around him.

"If it becomes too much, we'll break and get rid of it," the lawyer says.

Someone watching today's evidence mutters: "It's a bug."

[Kiwias]

Anyway, this tickled me on the Beebs live reporting:

There's a brief pause as Beer realises Jenkins is being troubled by a fly which is buzzing around him.

"If it becomes too much, we'll break and get rid of it," the lawyer says.

Someone watching today's evidence mutters: "It's a bug."

This reminds me of a quip by I think Beer at the start of a another session of questioning of George Thomson of the NFSP when Sir Wyn wasn't able to connect immediately. Sir Wyn noted that one thing he had learnt through the entire process was that even very good systems could have glitches.

To which Beer drily commented "I am sure George Thomson would be interested in hearing that", or something along those lines.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I've just been listening to some of Gareth Jenkins' evidence. Unlike many witnesses, his memory seems fine and he's answering the questions asked of him. His colleague, Ann Chambers, came across the same way.

As a former IT person, it will get more interesting to me when he's actually asked about bugs in the Horizon system. in previous evidence, it seems there was an attitude of 'I can't see anything wrong, after a quick look therefore the system must be fine'

[inactionman]

I've just been listening to some of Gareth Jenkins' evidence. Unlike many witnesses, his memory seems fine and he's answering the questions asked of him. His colleague, Ann Chambers, came across the same way.

As a former IT person, it will get more interesting to me when he's actually asked about bugs in the Horizon system. in previous evidence, it seems there was an attitude of 'I can't see anything wrong, after a quick look therefore the system must be fine'

He's floundering a little bit now, because they've got a document that says he thought all the legalese about his duties as an expert witness were 'standard stuff' even though he thought it didn't apply to him.

eta: It seems like he was badly/barely advised by his internal legal counsel, if that's any mitigation.

[inactionman]

It's almost cruel having this lot waiting him on the 4th day.

Almost out of the frying pan, and then straight into the fire.

[inactionman]

I've caught bit of the hearing today, the chief of staff to the CEO who seemed blissfully unaware of a QC's report.

I haven't seen a single witness from the Post Office who hasn't looked like an utter arse.

[Blackmac]

I've caught bit of the hearing today, the chief of staff to the CEO who seemed blissfully unaware of a QC's report.

I haven't seen a single witness from the Post Office who hasn't looked like an utter arse.

Sadly they don't really give a fuck as they know that nothing will happen to 99.9% of them.

[inactionman]

I've caught bit of the hearing today, the chief of staff to the CEO who seemed blissfully unaware of a QC's report.

I haven't seen a single witness from the Post Office who hasn't looked like an utter arse.

Sadly they don't really give a fuck as they know that nothing will happen to 99.9% of them.

I'm still not quite sure what happens at the end of this - can Sir Wyn refer or otherwise recommend criminal investigations, or will it rely upon the Police or CPS (for England and Wales anyway) kicking any such investigation off?

It didn't seem to work all that well for Hillsborough - although the only criminal trial was for tampering with statements, which was thrown out because they were only prosecuted for tampering with statements for a non-statutory enquiry which is apparently not a criminal offence. I think the Post Office are in a fair bit deeper merde, but not sure what hits the criminal liability level.

I think everyone has seen enough to realise what a bunch of clowns and sociopaths the Post Office employed, but not sure what justice there will be.

[SaintK]

I've caught bit of the hearing today, the chief of staff to the CEO who seemed blissfully unaware of a QC's report.

I haven't seen a single witness from the Post Office who hasn't looked like an utter arse.

Sadly they don't really give a fuck as they know that nothing will happen to 99.9% of them.

I'm still not quite sure what happens at the end of this - can Sir Wyn refer or otherwise recommend criminal investigations, or will it rely upon the Police or CPS (for England and Wales anyway) kicking any such investigation off?

It didn't seem to work all that well for Hillsborough - although the only criminal trial was for tampering with statements, which was thrown out because they were only prosecuted for tampering with statements for a non-statutory enquiry which is apparently not a criminal offence. I think the Post Office are in a fair bit deeper merde, but not sure what hits the criminal liability level.

I think everyone has seen enough to realise what a bunch of clowns and sociopaths the Post Office employed, but not sure what justice there will be.

I (maybe mistakenly) thought that there would be sufficient evidence for Venells and several others to be charged with perjury?

[SaintK]

The Post Office has paid out a quarter of a billion pounds in legal fees in relation to the Horizon IT scandal – almost equal to the amount that has been given so far to victims, some of whom were imprisoned and made bankrupt.
The state-owned body paid out £256.9m to 15 law firms and two barristers chambers between September 2014 and March 2024, according to a freedom of information (FoI) request submitted by the Lawyer magazine.
Fees are in relation to the group litigation, the subsequent establishment of the compensation schemes, legal advice relating to compliance with the Horizon Issues judgment and Post Office representation at the Horizon IT Inquiry

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/a ... -scandal