All Blacks Vs England Test Series and Fiji Exhibition matchthread
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Paddington Bear
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Whilst this is true, he was an enormous part of getting us close. Giving an offside away when the ABs were likely to score pales in comparison.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Ah well. Same feelings as last week. Played competitively but with the possession we had those gruber kicks were just complete brain parts. We should have won.
“It was a pet, not an animal. It had a name, you don't eat things with names, this is horrific!”
The lack of bench power in the forwards cost England. Steward has a touch of Matt Perry about him in that while mostly decent doesn't have enough pace or offer enough in attack to be selected.
No concerns about that last call or the result, England just don't have the quality to win games like that.
We have a mostly sub par bench, most of which wouldn't even make it into the Wales squad (Sleightholme excepted), Curry is not match fit, the rest are very ordinary.
Congratulations New Zealand, but as things stand you are going to have to go up several gears to challenge the Saffers.
We have a mostly sub par bench, most of which wouldn't even make it into the Wales squad (Sleightholme excepted), Curry is not match fit, the rest are very ordinary.
Congratulations New Zealand, but as things stand you are going to have to go up several gears to challenge the Saffers.
'Bout bloody time it was! The 'same maul' call should only apply when defenders have pulled out, not when attack willingly sheers off. And the tail still needs to get free. Bring back a proper rolling maul if they want to.Tichtheid wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 9:01 am I don't know, you see players shearing off the side of a maul like that in almost every game and it never gets pinged.
Does my head in that shears/truck and trailer is allowed so much!
Should have hooked him at half time, put Smith at 15 and brought Sleightholme on. (*actually he should never have started.....ever)Raggs wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 9:07 am If Genge or Marler had been fit, it would have helped, but losing Furbank really hurt us a lot.
Yeah,, I’m taking the positive approach on that; at least we have solved first choice picks at 9 and 15. Been years since we could say that.Raggs wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 9:07 am If Genge or Marler had been fit, it would have helped, but losing Furbank really hurt us a lot.
Wings look dangerous.
Fairly deep at 10.
Baxter adds depth to 1 and put genuine pressure on genge now.
The focus of all academies from here on out is to produce a couple of tight heads!
Or we need to find a saffa that holidayed in England for long enough to qualify!
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Hal Jordan
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Slade has had a weird inversion from a good attacking player who was suspect on defence to a good defensive player who kills the attack.
The midfield isn't working, but they won't change it.
The midfield isn't working, but they won't change it.
Part of the problem is that Lawrence is an excellent 13 being treated like he's Andre Esterhuizen. He has power but he's not a giant, and his skillset isn't getting crash ball on the gainline. I'm really surprised we didn't use Steward or Freeman like that more often and letting Lawrence pick lines wider out - the few times he's had those opportunities in the past few weeks he's made the most of them.
Anyway, you're not going to beat NZ in NZ with multiple players playing poorly. Today we had Earl backing up a poor performance with an even worse one - comfortably the worst display of his career. Steward allied his natural and athletic deficiencies to excitingly dreadful decision making. Underhill didn't make much impact, and CCS doesn't do much if he can't get over the gainline with his carries.
Itoje can be hugely proud of his performancs, and given he was limping heavily before the hour I'm not surprised he dropped off a bit and started giving away penalties. No complaints here. Stuart is getting a lot of flak but I thought he played his part in stopping the scrum problems becoming a disaster in the first half, and Baxter did a superb job again. Theo Dan getting immediately KO'd really hurt our attempts to add momentum in the pack, Cole didn't add anything, and Rodd continues his scrum problems.
Mitchell and Smith both worked pretty well but both had their moments of suspect decision making / chancing their arm and it not coming off, which is what you can expect from both of them. A couple of times Mitchell kept kicks infield when they really needed to go out - he wasn't the only one, Steward did the same - and that tended to hurt us badly. Obviously Marcus nailed his goalkicking and those two cross kicks were superb, but NZ bust a gut to stop him carving them open and did a really good job. Overall positive, though, especially with some of his tactical kicking and his superb kickoffs. I understand Borthwick wanting to give Fin a chance but Marcus has a track record of game-changing interventions at the death, so always taking him off seems weird, and unfortunately Fin's impact today in his limited time was largely negative. It will be interesting to see how he goes when he can start a match, as I don't think the bench suits him at all so far. I'm glad Spencer stayed on the bench!
It's not quite the benefit of hindsight, but I am disappointed we haven't been able to see Carpenter at 15, or Sleightholme with a longer run on the wing with Freeman at 13. I'm annoyed that we seem to have banked a lot on CCS's highlights reel, because he does not have the workrate at the moment and is a bench player through and through. Ted Hill really would have been a much better option and I feel this has been a missed opportunity. It's also a shame that none of our other 8s have had a look-in.
Ultimately I don't think we deserved to win this one but I'm really quite happy with where we're at. We tried to play rugby in both matches (that must sound funny to any non English rugby supporter), we weren't outclassed at any point, and we participated in two excellent contests. We have a clutch of quality options in various positions, almost all the players who we weren't sure about yet have stood up really well, and the late rally at the end of the 6N hasn't been a false dawn.
So, congratulations on a deserved 2-0 to NZ, well played and a thoroughly enjoyable series for this England fan to watch. Both sides will ultimately take a lot of satisfaction out of these matches. Good stuff.
Anyway, you're not going to beat NZ in NZ with multiple players playing poorly. Today we had Earl backing up a poor performance with an even worse one - comfortably the worst display of his career. Steward allied his natural and athletic deficiencies to excitingly dreadful decision making. Underhill didn't make much impact, and CCS doesn't do much if he can't get over the gainline with his carries.
Itoje can be hugely proud of his performancs, and given he was limping heavily before the hour I'm not surprised he dropped off a bit and started giving away penalties. No complaints here. Stuart is getting a lot of flak but I thought he played his part in stopping the scrum problems becoming a disaster in the first half, and Baxter did a superb job again. Theo Dan getting immediately KO'd really hurt our attempts to add momentum in the pack, Cole didn't add anything, and Rodd continues his scrum problems.
Mitchell and Smith both worked pretty well but both had their moments of suspect decision making / chancing their arm and it not coming off, which is what you can expect from both of them. A couple of times Mitchell kept kicks infield when they really needed to go out - he wasn't the only one, Steward did the same - and that tended to hurt us badly. Obviously Marcus nailed his goalkicking and those two cross kicks were superb, but NZ bust a gut to stop him carving them open and did a really good job. Overall positive, though, especially with some of his tactical kicking and his superb kickoffs. I understand Borthwick wanting to give Fin a chance but Marcus has a track record of game-changing interventions at the death, so always taking him off seems weird, and unfortunately Fin's impact today in his limited time was largely negative. It will be interesting to see how he goes when he can start a match, as I don't think the bench suits him at all so far. I'm glad Spencer stayed on the bench!
It's not quite the benefit of hindsight, but I am disappointed we haven't been able to see Carpenter at 15, or Sleightholme with a longer run on the wing with Freeman at 13. I'm annoyed that we seem to have banked a lot on CCS's highlights reel, because he does not have the workrate at the moment and is a bench player through and through. Ted Hill really would have been a much better option and I feel this has been a missed opportunity. It's also a shame that none of our other 8s have had a look-in.
Ultimately I don't think we deserved to win this one but I'm really quite happy with where we're at. We tried to play rugby in both matches (that must sound funny to any non English rugby supporter), we weren't outclassed at any point, and we participated in two excellent contests. We have a clutch of quality options in various positions, almost all the players who we weren't sure about yet have stood up really well, and the late rally at the end of the 6N hasn't been a false dawn.
So, congratulations on a deserved 2-0 to NZ, well played and a thoroughly enjoyable series for this England fan to watch. Both sides will ultimately take a lot of satisfaction out of these matches. Good stuff.
ThanksJM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 9:54 am Part of the problem is that Lawrence is an excellent 13 being treated like he's Andre Esterhuizen. He has power but he's not a giant, and his skillset isn't getting crash ball on the gainline. I'm really surprised we didn't use Steward or Freeman like that more often and letting Lawrence pick lines wider out - the few times he's had those opportunities in the past few weeks he's made the most of them.
Anyway, you're not going to beat NZ in NZ with multiple players playing poorly. Today we had Earl backing up a poor performance with an even worse one - comfortably the worst display of his career. Steward allied his natural and athletic deficiencies to excitingly dreadful decision making. Underhill didn't make much impact, and CCS doesn't do much if he can't get over the gainline with his carries.
Itoje can be hugely proud of his performancs, and given he was limping heavily before the hour I'm not surprised he dropped off a bit and started giving away penalties. No complaints here. Stuart is getting a lot of flak but I thought he played his part in stopping the scrum problems becoming a disaster in the first half, and Baxter did a superb job again. Theo Dan getting immediately KO'd really hurt our attempts to add momentum in the pack, Cole didn't add anything, and Rodd continues his scrum problems.
Mitchell and Smith both worked pretty well but both had their moments of suspect decision making / chancing their arm and it not coming off, which is what you can expect from both of them. A couple of times Mitchell kept kicks infield when they really needed to go out - he wasn't the only one, Steward did the same - and that tended to hurt us badly. Obviously Marcus nailed his goalkicking and those two cross kicks were superb, but NZ bust a gut to stop him carving them open and did a really good job. Overall positive, though, especially with some of his tactical kicking and his superb kickoffs. I understand Borthwick wanting to give Fin a chance but Marcus has a track record of game-changing interventions at the death, so always taking him off seems weird, and unfortunately Fin's impact today in his limited time was largely negative. It will be interesting to see how he goes when he can start a match, as I don't think the bench suits him at all so far. I'm glad Spencer stayed on the bench!
It's not quite the benefit of hindsight, but I am disappointed we haven't been able to see Carpenter at 15, or Sleightholme with a longer run on the wing with Freeman at 13. I'm annoyed that we seem to have banked a lot on CCS's highlights reel, because he does not have the workrate at the moment and is a bench player through and through. Ted Hill really would have been a much better option and I feel this has been a missed opportunity. It's also a shame that none of our other 8s have had a look-in.
Ultimately I don't think we deserved to win this one but I'm really quite happy with where we're at. We tried to play rugby in both matches (that must sound funny to any non English rugby supporter), we weren't outclassed at any point, and we participated in two excellent contests. We have a clutch of quality options in various positions, almost all the players who we weren't sure about yet have stood up really well, and the late rally at the end of the 6N hasn't been a false dawn.
So, congratulations on a deserved 2-0 to NZ, well played and a thoroughly enjoyable series for this England fan to watch. Both sides will ultimately take a lot of satisfaction out of these matches. Good stuff.
Excellent summary
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Paddington Bear
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If you’d have offered me the performances we’ve had in the aftermath of the Edinburgh debacle I’d have just laughed in your face. It’s been very very positive
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
I think NZ got a little bit lucky last night (first try - should have been a penalty against Savea in an earlier breakdown for getting up and running further after being tackled).
Telea burned 2 tries really - sure he scored 2 but most wingers would have got those. His absence on defence was noted.
Christie is a good defender but fails in his core function for me. His ruck clearance is too slow and sets up the outside backs to be playing against an organised defence.
Our lineout is busted - needs a good doctor urgently. Going to cast suspicious glances at hooker for that one.
Lineout stocks with Roigard and Ratima looks healthy for the future. DMac and Beauden B looked a lot better with the quick ball.
Did anyone else notice Jordie miss 2 easy tackles that put us under huge pressure? We need our 12 to be a wall.
England (and South Africa) play a simple but physical gameplan and the ABs need to match this with aggression and precise ball handling.
Beauden Barrett has still got it - that pick-up and clearance late in the game had me applauding.
Razor - gets a C+ pass mark but I expected better than some of that dross in the middle of the game. Good use of subs.
Telea burned 2 tries really - sure he scored 2 but most wingers would have got those. His absence on defence was noted.
Christie is a good defender but fails in his core function for me. His ruck clearance is too slow and sets up the outside backs to be playing against an organised defence.
Our lineout is busted - needs a good doctor urgently. Going to cast suspicious glances at hooker for that one.
Lineout stocks with Roigard and Ratima looks healthy for the future. DMac and Beauden B looked a lot better with the quick ball.
Did anyone else notice Jordie miss 2 easy tackles that put us under huge pressure? We need our 12 to be a wall.
England (and South Africa) play a simple but physical gameplan and the ABs need to match this with aggression and precise ball handling.
Beauden Barrett has still got it - that pick-up and clearance late in the game had me applauding.
Razor - gets a C+ pass mark but I expected better than some of that dross in the middle of the game. Good use of subs.
I drink and I forget things.
Yeah seems a bit odd to say it, considering he scored 2 tries, but he had a poor game. Terrible under the high ball when England scored their tries, and that attempted pass back infield (that Marcus Smith snaffled) when he should've gone for the corner was just bloody unforgiveable for a test wing. I almost would've preferred Clarke out there. Almost.Enzedder wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:07 pmTelea burned 2 tries really - sure he scored 2 but most wingers would have got those. His absence on defence was noted.
Didn't they have someone to replace him at say the 60 minute mark, the big fella was definitely running out of steam after playing solidly.
Lucky escape again by the ABs. The Saffas will be licking their lips.
Stuff ratings for NZ
I think they are too high with Perofeta; Tele'a; J Barrett; Christie and Papali'i15 Stephen Perofeta: Bright counterattacking display individually, but the Perofeta-McKenzie combination is likely over after Barrett’s display from the bench. 5
14 Sevu Reece: Struggled to get involved and was guilty one of poor kick out on the full after the ball had been carried back into the 22m. Also beat on the outside late in the game. 3
13 Rieko Ioane: Replaced on the hour mark for Anton Lienert-Brown after the All Blacks attack struggled to find any fluency. Defended bravely. 5
12 Jordie Barrett: Dreadful pass from an early set-phase move was a pointer of what was to come for the first 60 minutes. Caught out defensively on a few occasions as the All Blacks held on grimly. 5
11 Mark Tele’a: Finished well twice but appeared to be targeted by England’s kicking game and struggled defensively on the less familiar left-hand side. Belongs in the No 14 jersey. 6
10 Damian McKenzie: Kicked well off the tee and was good in the backfield but he was outplayed by Marcus Smith in general play as the All Blacks forwards once again failed to set the platform. Linked well with Barrett in final quarter. 6
9 Finlay Christie: Pugnacious on defence with an enormous tackle on Chandler Cunningham-South in opening phases. However, his tactical kicking was poor compared to opposite Alex Mitchell. Replaced after 53 minutes. 5
8 Ardie Savea: Provided the impetus for Tele’a’s try with a strong surge(he was bloody tackled - lucky) and also produced one momentum-shifting lineout steal. Well contained by the English defence but competed hard for the ball on the ground. 7
7 Dalton Papali’i: Improved performance from last week as he muscled up against the big England ball carriers. 6
6 Samipeni Finau: The Chiefs No 6 couldn’t impose himself at all and was dragged early in the second half. Intensity of test rugby has been a big step up. 3
5 Patrick Tuipulotu: Couldn’t repeat his strong performance in Dunedin, either at set-piece or around the field. Replaced after 54 minutes. 4
4 Scott Barrett: Worked hard but operated in the shadow of brilliant Englishman Maro Itoje. Dropped restart at end of first half was typical of All Blacks’ inaccuracy. 5
3 Tyrel Lomax: Some solid defensive hits but there was no sign of the All Blacks forwards sending a collective message that they are a unit to be feared. 5
2 Codie Taylor: Busy around the field on both sides of the ball but the lineout was substandard and he threw one short option straight to Itoje. 5
1 Ethan de Groot: Started on top at scrum time but contest became more even as the game unfolded and he was rarely sighted with ball in hand. 5
Reserves:
16 Asafo Aumua: Provided plenty of energy off the bench just when the All Blacks needed it. 6
17 Ofa Tu’ungafasi: Scrum found another gear after the big Blues prop came on. 6
18 Fletcher Newell: Won a huge penalty after 73 minutes with the game in the balance at 21-17. 7
19 Tupou Vaa’i: Lineout improved in the second half as the All Blacks managed to exert some pressure on England ball. 6
20 Luke Jacobson: Plenty of hard work from the flanker after he had been thrown on in tough circumstances. 5
21 Cortez Ratima: Immediately added some much-needed pace into the All Blacks attack with the speed of his pass. 7
22 Anton Lienert-Brown: Busy midfielder is pressing for a start with Ioane not in top form. 5
23 Beauden Barrett: Called into action after 55 minutes with the All Blacks trailing 17-13 and completely changed the game. One of the great bench performances. 9
I drink and I forget things.
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Guy Smiley
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I worked last night and missed the game again. Caught a few highlight clips so far which tell you nothing.
Gonna go out on a limb here (bearing in mind my comments previously about changing team culture and time needed to bed in a new coach)...
the future isn't Beauden Barrett and Damian McKenzie.
It isn't Ardie at 8.
It's not Patrick Tuipolouto,
and it's not Findlay Christie.
Also, you have to tip the hate to Itoje and his abrasive, relentless attack on a game. He's a beast of a competitor.
Gonna go out on a limb here (bearing in mind my comments previously about changing team culture and time needed to bed in a new coach)...
the future isn't Beauden Barrett and Damian McKenzie.
It isn't Ardie at 8.
It's not Patrick Tuipolouto,
and it's not Findlay Christie.
Also, you have to tip the hate to Itoje and his abrasive, relentless attack on a game. He's a beast of a competitor.
I would be surprised if Christie, Tuipoluto, DMac, and BB are on the northern tour in November, and I can't wait to see Ardie moved to 7, with Sotutu or Sititi at 8, a genuine specialist 8. Papali'i or Finau would be at 6, or Blackadder if he can stay fit and uninjured.Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 3:08 am I worked last night and missed the game again. Caught a few highlight clips so far which tell you nothing.
Gonna go out on a limb here (bearing in mind my comments previously about changing team culture and time needed to bed in a new coach)...
the future isn't Beauden Barrett and Damian McKenzie.
It isn't Ardie at 8.
It's not Patrick Tuipolouto,
and it's not Findlay Christie.
Also, you have to tip the hate to Itoje and his abrasive, relentless attack on a game. He's a beast of a competitor.
I would also like to see Rieko Ioane moved back to his best position at 11. Our two wings last night were badly exposed in defense, lacking the height needed to defuse pinpoint kicks. Razor would to worse than play Plummer at 10 -- nothing flash but he does the basics very well. Ratima to start with Roigard on the bench for me, and Jordan back from injury at 15.
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Guy Smiley
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Pretty much agree with all of that Kiwias.
I dunno if I said it in here before but I'd love to see Rieko back on the wing, he's older now of course but he was one of the best in that spot. So of course, in the time honoured Kiwi tradition we played him out of position. Same with Ardie.
After this years Soup, I'd be interested in seeing Plummer in the 10 jersey. I think his season was a revelation and points to poor player management in the past not realising his strengths. He's still only 25, been around a long time and has time on his side. Well worth a look. I'd stick with Perofeta until Jordan is fit myself... he's an 'investment' player who deserves time to settle.
The backline won't ignite though with Christie at 9.... and trying Plummer at 10 throws open the need to decide who plays outside him and what role / style of play we want from our centres. Jack Goodhue would be a luxury now.
I dunno if I said it in here before but I'd love to see Rieko back on the wing, he's older now of course but he was one of the best in that spot. So of course, in the time honoured Kiwi tradition we played him out of position. Same with Ardie.
After this years Soup, I'd be interested in seeing Plummer in the 10 jersey. I think his season was a revelation and points to poor player management in the past not realising his strengths. He's still only 25, been around a long time and has time on his side. Well worth a look. I'd stick with Perofeta until Jordan is fit myself... he's an 'investment' player who deserves time to settle.
The backline won't ignite though with Christie at 9.... and trying Plummer at 10 throws open the need to decide who plays outside him and what role / style of play we want from our centres. Jack Goodhue would be a luxury now.
I don't mind JB at second five and I would like ALB at centre. However he is 29 already so perhaps we should look at someone like Proctor on the bench.
I agree about Perofeta staying at 15 will Jordan is back, then on the bench as he can cover 10 as well.
I agree about Perofeta staying at 15 will Jordan is back, then on the bench as he can cover 10 as well.
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Guy Smiley
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JB has grown into a pretty decent player in my eyes... who is still easily capable of being a fucking dud who doesn't limit his duddability to single occassions within a match.Kiwias wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 3:51 am I don't mind JB at second five and I would like ALB at centre. However he is 29 already so perhaps we should look at someone like Proctor on the bench.
I agree about Perofeta staying at 15 will Jordan is back, then on the bench as he can cover 10 as well.
I genuinely struggle to remember Itoje ever being replaced, maybe it's happened once or twice. Even when he was going through a pretty dismal period not so long back he'd always be kept on.Jethro wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 2:27 amDidn't they have someone to replace him at say the 60 minute mark, the big fella was definitely running out of steam after playing solidly.
Lucky escape again by the ABs. The Saffas will be licking their lips.
That is one of the best things to come out of this series for the ABs -- a bunch of young, strong, skilled props.
So, as I said on the SA/Ire thread, I’m sure we’re all happy we’ll never have a series like this again. We will have the magnificent Nations Cup instead, which I’m sure will have equal levels of anticipation and excitement.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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fishfoodie
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Indeed, I look forward to paying thru the nose to watch Ireland play matches in such rugby heartlands as Dubai,, & Saudi Arabia .....Biffer wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:14 am So, as I said on the SA/Ire thread, I’m sure we’re all happy we’ll never have a series like this again. We will have the magnificent Nations Cup instead, which I’m sure will have equal levels of anticipation and excitement.
The exhibition game (test) against Fiji is at San Diego this Saturday (2.30 pm NZ time)
The makeup of the side will be a mix of new and old as the squad is still a good'un.
The makeup of the side will be a mix of new and old as the squad is still a good'un.
This will be the start of a fantastic test career in my opinion. Well overdue.The All Blacks have emerged from a bruising two-test series against England relatively unscathed, with just one change to the squad as they head to San Diego to face Fiji.
But already they must dig deep into their lock stocks, with Blues captain Patrick Tuipulotu not boarding the plane to California.
“We’ve got a full squad bar Patrick Tuipulotu,” said All Blacks attack coach Leon MacDonald.
Tuipulotu’s hallmark is his workrate and intensity and it appears that has worn on his body, with the All Blacks opting to give their 45-test lock a rest after playing the England series under a slight injury cloud.
“Patty’s was a decision around his fitness in terms of his body, his return into the [Super Rugby Pacific] final with a knee [injury], he rolled his ankle during that game and then two massive efforts against a really physical England pack. We just feel we need to look after him a little bit,” MacDonald said.
The Blues had sweated on the fitness of their leader in the run-in to the Super Rugby Pacific final with Tuipulotu’s knee injury expected to sideline him for up to six weeks.
Just 20 minutes into the Auckland franchise’s quarter-final win over the Fijian Drua, Tuipulotu came off the field with a torn medial ligament and was expected to miss the England series entirely – until a miraculous return saw him take the field for the final and both tests.
Called into the New Zealand touring squad for San Diego is another Blues lock, Sam Darry.
Darry’s 2.03m frame also replaced Tuipulotu for the Blues and he will do so again, this time in a black jersey, as the All Blacks take an opportunity to give some new blood test experience in the one-off match against Fiji.
Also in line for a potential test debut is Hurricanes midfielder Billy Proctor, who had a breakout season for the Wellington-based side as they reached the Super Rugby Pacific semifinals.
“Billy is fantastic. I experienced Billy for the first time with the New Zealand XV as a coach and really enjoyed the way he plays, but also he’s a good student of the game. He’s got a skillset and work rate that’s as good as any midfielder,” MacDonald said.
“He’s pushing really hard and waiting for his opportunity to play and he’s definitely a player that I think would handle test rugby really well.”
After spending the past two weeks helping his teammates prepare for the England series, Proctor said he hopes what he has learned will allow him to take his chance when it comes.
“Soaking it all up and getting around all the info I need to around our maps and structures. Hopefully when the opportunity comes I’ll be ready, I am excited for when that opportunity hopefully does come and excited to get to work and putting my best foot forward.”
It has been a role of observation thus far for the 25-year-old, who says being in the All Blacks environment at training and on matchdays has been invaluable preparation.
“It’s quite intense and the boys have to be on a lot of the time... the boys get the reps at training and being at the game watching the boys being able to perform at the weekend is awesome.”
I drink and I forget things.