Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[epwc]

On government incompetence, the audit into HS2 shows that Sunak’s decision to scrap Phase 2 will likely cost £100m, result in building platforms that are never used, and reduce train capacity between Birmingham and Manchester from the present situation, so much so that travel will need to be discouraged by the mid-2030s.

Did the tories salt the earth so successfully that we can't ever re-start it?

(Not that I'm advocating it, just wondering how badly the tories screwed the pooch)

I think they tried but had struggled (as it is very challenging to sell land that has been compulsorily purchased). We could still very easily build phase 2a (i.e. the line to Crewe), which would mitigate a large amount of the fuck ups. Extending to Manchester is now much more difficult.

With that said, the case for increased capacity to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield remains unarguably strong, so eventually a government is going to have to build it

My nephew was involved with elements of it, he says the current version is absolutely pointless as it doesn't really enhance capacity. According to him of all the possible options they chose the worst one. (He's an infrastructure lawyer)

[dpedin]

Yep, the whole thing should have addressed the whole patient lifecycle which would include intra-trust sharing, but it didn't really work so we're not really much further on.

It's a tough ask, as so many parties have a touch upon a patient and medical care is a complex old beast, but to my outsider's eyes it looks like there wasn't sufficient upfront business service, process and commercial alignment. I'm basically an architect it IT who tries to align information and process understanding before the techies begin, which is a frequently overlooked aspect and causes all sorts of downstream problems, and I suppose I always see problems through that lens.

GPS seeing ambulance reports makes absolute sense, I'll admit to some surprise that hospitals can't. I assume they just take a set of information straight from paramedics as the patient comes through the doors of A&E? Seems ripe for something to be missed.

I have actually found the NHS up here quite well connected between hospitals, labs, GPs, imaging, etc. Anytime I have had tests, treatment etc then no matter where I have been the medic has had access to all my records and results.

From my experience the number of legacy systems (patient record, pharmacy, labs, procurement, HR, finance, payroll, estates, imaging, ambulance, theatres, etc plus individual speciality systems for audit etc ie neonatal care, cardiac surgery, diabetes, etc.) across the NHS is a major problem and they are supplied by a range of suppliers and some date back many, many years. Often commercial systems weren't available or affordable and individuals/groups/ professions developed their own in house systems for local use and these often spread across the wider NHS and were maintained by one man and his dog. Connecting up everything in a safe and secure manner is a major technical problem.

A few years ago one NHS board in Scotland had to upgrade its Windows operating system it found it had well over 100 legacy systems and it had major problems with implementation as a result. Bringing all these systems up to date and then ensuring they can all speak to each other safely and securely is still a major problem. Also many systems need to link with or speak to other 'external' systems - ie junior docs training and education is also managed through post graduate Deaneries and junior docs will rotate across a number of different employers so info needs to flow across them all. It really is a very complex issue!

It is very complex, so I don't envy whoever tries/tried to integrate it. I'd alway argue that simplifying the business process and understanding the touch points is the first step though - don't design around dodgy processes themselves which in many cases are only dodgy as they were a workaround for poor IT.

I've always found the NHS is very good at the medical side of things, but very bad at manging expectations and keeping the patient informed. We've had a number of referrals for our eldest daughter, and some of these have clashed. Getting absolutely everything paper-based is also a pain in the arse, not least as I'll see note for an appinmtne tthat my wife has already rescheduled. There really needs to be an electronic interface for the customer.

Agree 100% about redesigning the process before procuring the IT, however even this can be difficult given all the stakeholders involved - internal and external - and clinical risks etc plus they usually need to get key clinicians to change how the work which can be difficult. However it needs to be done but requires skills and expertise that the NHS often lacks.

Paper is an issue. I am lucky in that I can for example order prescriptions on line, they get signed off baby GP and sent to pharmacy electronically and I get a text from pharmacy when it is ready and I collect via machine in the wall open 24/7. I remember asking a few years ago why NHS still uses paper/snail mail for appointments and was reminded that the majority of users of NHS are usually below 5 and over 65 and cant/dont use technology the way most others do plus many are from deprived sections of society and didn't have easy access. This is obviously changing, security is better, and now even older folk use mobiles/tablets/laptops for most transactions and it is time for NHS to use electronic comms.

[Paddington Bear]

Did the tories salt the earth so successfully that we can't ever re-start it?

(Not that I'm advocating it, just wondering how badly the tories screwed the pooch)

I think they tried but had struggled (as it is very challenging to sell land that has been compulsorily purchased). We could still very easily build phase 2a (i.e. the line to Crewe), which would mitigate a large amount of the fuck ups. Extending to Manchester is now much more difficult.

With that said, the case for increased capacity to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield remains unarguably strong, so eventually a government is going to have to build it

My nephew was involved with elements of it, he says the current version is absolutely pointless as it doesn't really enhance capacity. According to him of all the possible options they chose the worst one. (He's an infrastructure lawyer)

I wouldn’t be quite as strong as ‘absolutely pointless’, but I’d certainly agree it defeats the entire purpose and does not offer any proper value for money as currently constituted. I.e. it *will* improve the direct London - Brum trains somewhat which are currently appalling, and will allow for enhanced commuter services on the WCML from MK and Hertfordshire. This was not the goal of the project!

As I say, getting it to Crewe is the bare minimum required where we will actually start getting some national gains, and is very achievable. Getting it to Manchester is a pretty key element of it being a world class system, and would really help east/west links across the north as well. Incidentally, the higher BCR was on the Leeds leg which was cancelled a while back.

All in all, a total shambles of a project and a national embarrassment. It didn’t have to be this way!

[epwc]

All in all, a total shambles of a project and a national embarrassment. It didn’t have to be this way!

Yep, and cost is relative, the Elizabeth line has transformed public transport in London and must have eliminated more car journeys than ULEZ

[Paddington Bear]

All in all, a total shambles of a project and a national embarrassment. It didn’t have to be this way!

Yep, and cost is relative, the Elizabeth line has transformed public transport in London and must have eliminated more car journeys than ULEZ

350 million journeys in its first two years! If only there we kept building this stuff and spent less time faffing with consultations/business cases/planning and just built, we’d have projects up and down the country paying for themselves in no time

[epwc]

350 million journeys in its first two years! If only there we kept building this stuff and spent less time faffing with consultations/business cases/planning and just built, we’d have projects up and down the country paying for themselves in no time

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

We are actually good at infrastructure when we pull our fingers out

[Paddington Bear]

350 million journeys in its first two years! If only there we kept building this stuff and spent less time faffing with consultations/business cases/planning and just built, we’d have projects up and down the country paying for themselves in no time

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

We are actually good at infrastructure when we pull our fingers out

100%. What we have built/upgraded over the last few years is all pretty bloody good, we just take far too long to do so, allow costs to spiral out of control, and fail to do much at all up north. None of these are iron laws of the universe

[Sandstorm]

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

BA already charges passengers more tax than any other airline on Earth. It's already chased a lot of international passengers away from LHR & over to Dublin/Schiphol/Frankfurt/Madrid. Push those taxes up again and BA will fold.

[epwc]

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

BA already charges passengers more tax than any other airline on Earth. It's already chased a lot of international passengers away from LHR & over to Dublin/Schiphol/Frankfurt/Madrid. Push those taxes up again and BA will fold.

Domestic flights should be taxed exactly as railways are. There needs to be an EU wide agreement that does the same for international flights.

It's frankly immoral for people to be able to fly for the prices they do now.

I doubt very much that IAG (parent company of British Airways, Iberia, Vueling, Aer Lingus, LEVEL, IAG Loyalty and IAG Cargo. It is a Spanish registered company) will fold due to any potential increase in tax because:

a) It ain't going to happen
b) If by some miracle it does it'll be part of an international agreement

[Paddington Bear]

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

BA already charges passengers more tax than any other airline on Earth. It's already chased a lot of international passengers away from LHR & over to Dublin/Schiphol/Frankfurt/Madrid. Push those taxes up again and BA will fold.

There’s a difference between domestic and international here. UK plc should be aiming to take international business off of the airports above, whilst having the rail infrastructure to make flying from London to say Glasgow or Newquay a thing of the past.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And railways would make even more sense if air transport was taxed the same way as rail.

BA already charges passengers more tax than any other airline on Earth. It's already chased a lot of international passengers away from LHR & over to Dublin/Schiphol/Frankfurt/Madrid. Push those taxes up again and BA will fold.

Not a bad move given runway demands at LHR. Let's lose some more business, and raise taxes too.

[Margin__Walker]

If we're talking about things that are broken, dealing with the DWP for DLA for my youngest has been an eye opener. Applications have to be posted. No acknowledgement of receipt for weeks, then take four or five months (!) for anyone to actually look at them. Hour wait minimum if you ever need to call them, often with the call just dropping and having to start again.

Now a year later going back through the process to report a change of his circumstances that will likely result in receiving less. Same again. Postal form sent three months ago, no option to email/web form. Missed a call this afternoon from them as I was working. Message tells me to call them back today. I've been waiting for them to pick up for 68 minutes and counting.

And all this trying to actually give them money back.

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

[epwc]

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

You clearly haven't dealt with UKPN, or even cancellation of Sky TV, or Lloyds Bank, or Barclays Bank, I thought Revolut was supposed to be good but they were just as bad as Barclays and Lloyds.

But yeah, in general you're right, I was on the phone for over 2 hours earlier this year trying to talk to someone at HMRC.

[inactionman]

If we're talking about things that are broken, dealing with the DWP for DLA for my youngest has been an eye opener. Applications have to be posted. No acknowledgement of receipt for weeks, then take four or five months (!) for anyone to actually look at them. Hour wait minimum if you ever need to call them, often with the call just dropping and having to start again.

Now a year later going back through the process to report a change of his circumstances that will likely result in receiving less. Same again. Postal form sent three months ago, no option to email/web form. Missed a call this afternoon from them as I was working. Message tells me to call them back today. I've been waiting for them to pick up for 68 minutes and counting.

And all this trying to actually give them money back.

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

Scottish Social Security are a fair bit better, but to be honest they're not yet doing anything of the same scope as DWP.

I appreciate that is perhaps the most faint praise anyone could ever be damned with, but it's worth noting.

[petej]

All in all, a total shambles of a project and a national embarrassment. It didn’t have to be this way!

Yep, and cost is relative, the Elizabeth line has transformed public transport in London and must have eliminated more car journeys than ULEZ

350 million journeys in its first two years! If only there we kept building this stuff and spent less time faffing with consultations/business cases/planning and just built, we’d have projects up and down the country paying for themselves in no time

That is the killer and a problem with being such a service led economy though you missed the commercial, legal and financial departments which will have some computer says no types that refuse to speak to each other. So contracts can be quick and a month to get going or take 9 months purely on how many computer says no types you encounter.

[epwc]

That is the killer and a problem with being such a service led economy though you missed the commercial, legal and financial departments which will have some computer says no types that refuse to speak to each other. So contracts can be quick and a month to get going or take 9 months purely on how many computer says no types you encounter.

You've got to find them first! We've got a site adjoining a railway line, we need to acquire a small piece of land (20 sq mtrs) from TFL to allow the building of the scheme. It took us 2 years to get to a point where we'd agreed in principle, unfortunately Covid then shut everything down.

It took us till November last year to find someone new at TFL prepared to talk to us.

[Margin__Walker]

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

You clearly haven't dealt with UKPN, or even cancellation of Sky TV, or Lloyds Bank, or Barclays Bank, I thought Revolut was supposed to be good but they were just as bad as Barclays and Lloyds.

But yeah, in general you're right, I was on the phone for over 2 hours earlier this year trying to talk to someone at HMRC.

HMRC are pretty rank too tbf. I've had fun trying to talk to someone there too.

[Margin__Walker]

If we're talking about things that are broken, dealing with the DWP for DLA for my youngest has been an eye opener. Applications have to be posted. No acknowledgement of receipt for weeks, then take four or five months (!) for anyone to actually look at them. Hour wait minimum if you ever need to call them, often with the call just dropping and having to start again.

Now a year later going back through the process to report a change of his circumstances that will likely result in receiving less. Same again. Postal form sent three months ago, no option to email/web form. Missed a call this afternoon from them as I was working. Message tells me to call them back today. I've been waiting for them to pick up for 68 minutes and counting.

And all this trying to actually give them money back.

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

Scottish Social Security are a fair bit better, but to be honest they're not yet doing anything of the same scope as DWP.

I appreciate that is perhaps the most faint praise anyone could ever be damned with, but it's worth noting.

Good to know. If you can't beat them at football. At least be slightly less shit than them at benefits.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep, and cost is relative, the Elizabeth line has transformed public transport in London and must have eliminated more car journeys than ULEZ

350 million journeys in its first two years! If only there we kept building this stuff and spent less time faffing with consultations/business cases/planning and just built, we’d have projects up and down the country paying for themselves in no time

That is the killer and a problem with being such a service led economy though you missed the commercial, legal and financial departments which will have some computer says no types that refuse to speak to each other. So contracts can be quick and a month to get going or take 9 months purely on how many computer says no types you encounter.

And this is where politicians (should) come into the process. First in providing the political will to actually drive this stuff and demand quick results, second in passing legislation to bypass the rentier sector when needed.

[Hal Jordan]

Clearly it's a government department so they have a captive audience, but any private company wouldn't last a week operating as they do. Not sure how much of it is to create a hostile environment to discourage claims and how much is incompetence, but it's no fun either way

You clearly haven't dealt with UKPN, or even cancellation of Sky TV, or Lloyds Bank, or Barclays Bank, I thought Revolut was supposed to be good but they were just as bad as Barclays and Lloyds.

But yeah, in general you're right, I was on the phone for over 2 hours earlier this year trying to talk to someone at HMRC.

HMRC are pretty rank too tbf. I've had fun trying to talk to someone there too.

I am eternally grateful that rank hath its privileges so that I cam palm off the HMRC telephone experience on more junior members of staff these days.

[Paddington Bear]

Anyone else have any reason to deal with HM Courts and Tribunal Service? Now there’s a telephone experience to bring you to tears

[dpedin]

You clearly haven't dealt with UKPN, or even cancellation of Sky TV, or Lloyds Bank, or Barclays Bank, I thought Revolut was supposed to be good but they were just as bad as Barclays and Lloyds.

But yeah, in general you're right, I was on the phone for over 2 hours earlier this year trying to talk to someone at HMRC.

HMRC are pretty rank too tbf. I've had fun trying to talk to someone there too.

I am eternally grateful that rank hath its privileges so that I cam palm off the HMRC telephone experience on more junior members of staff these days.

I had to speak to HMRC about my tax code when I retired and went back to work part time. I used the online chat function and got through very quickly to an HMRC official working at home at his kitchen table. He sorted my tax code in about 5 mins no problem! He said dont bother using the phone lines as it would take forever and that the online chat function was much quicker and preferred by the HMRC folk.

[Hal Jordan]

HMRC Inheritance Tax is not one for chat lines.

[Sandstorm]

HMRC Inheritance Tax is not one for chat lines.

Lawyers office is more suitable, when the kids starting fighting over dearly-departed Daddy's house in Surrey.

[Paddington Bear]

HMRC Inheritance Tax is not one for chat lines.

Lawyers office is more suitable, when the kids starting fighting over dearly-departed Daddy's house in Surrey.

There is no bigger growth market in the English legal sector than contentious probate, for obvious reasons

[Dinsdale Piranha]

HMRC Inheritance Tax is not one for chat lines.

Lawyers office is more suitable, when the kids starting fighting over dearly-departed Daddy's house in Surrey.

There is no bigger growth market in the English legal sector than contentious probate, for obvious reasons

Doesn't even need to be contentious. We ended up with a 30K legal bill for sorting out probate & Inheritance when there was a written will and nobody was arguing about anything. Took over a year.

Government probate services have also been screwed. It's moved to a centralised call centre based system with much lower skill individuals. They lost our probate application - twice. The solicitors said this had become common.

[robmatic]

Lawyers office is more suitable, when the kids starting fighting over dearly-departed Daddy's house in Surrey.

There is no bigger growth market in the English legal sector than contentious probate, for obvious reasons

Doesn't even need to be contentious. We ended up with a 30K legal bill for sorting out probate & Inheritance when there was a written will and nobody was arguing about anything. Took over a year.

Government probate services have also been screwed. It's moved to a centralised call centre based system with much lower skill individuals. They lost our probate application - twice. The solicitors said this had become common.

My Dad's has taken over 5 years so far to sort out

[Paddington Bear]

There is no bigger growth market in the English legal sector than contentious probate, for obvious reasons

Doesn't even need to be contentious. We ended up with a 30K legal bill for sorting out probate & Inheritance when there was a written will and nobody was arguing about anything. Took over a year.

Government probate services have also been screwed. It's moved to a centralised call centre based system with much lower skill individuals. They lost our probate application - twice. The solicitors said this had become common.

My Dad's has taken over 5 years so far to sort out

Hard to say without knowing the specific details obviously, but there are some absolutely honking solicitors working on probate matters, and them blaming public bodies for delays is not always strictly accurate

[Biffer]

Doesn't even need to be contentious. We ended up with a 30K legal bill for sorting out probate & Inheritance when there was a written will and nobody was arguing about anything. Took over a year.

Government probate services have also been screwed. It's moved to a centralised call centre based system with much lower skill individuals. They lost our probate application - twice. The solicitors said this had become common.

My Dad's has taken over 5 years so far to sort out

Hard to say without knowing the specific details obviously, but there are some absolutely honking solicitors working on probate matters, and them blaming public bodies for delays is not always strictly accurate

Yeah, my mums estate took about a year and involved two property sales and a redraw of Croft title deeds. Five years sounds like taking the piss.

[robmatic]

My Dad's has taken over 5 years so far to sort out

Hard to say without knowing the specific details obviously, but there are some absolutely honking solicitors working on probate matters, and them blaming public bodies for delays is not always strictly accurate

Yeah, my mums estate took about a year and involved two property sales and a redraw of Croft title deeds. Five years sounds like taking the piss.

I don't know all the details because I am not a beneficiary but the estate involves various parcels of agricultural land where the deeds were problematic, which seemed to take an age to sort out. The family farm was also arranged as a partnership with my uncle and that fell to pieces shortly after my Dad passed away, so to be fair I don't think it has been easy for the solicitors.

[Tichtheid]

My brother and I have just gone through the probate service. Our solicitor told us that there was a Covid backlog on an already slow process. Ours was very straight forward, we were the executors of the estate and it took 9 months for Confirmation to come through, which was pretty much exactly what we were told at the start, so I don’t really have any complaints.

[Hal Jordan]

Hard to say without knowing the specific details obviously, but there are some absolutely honking solicitors working on probate matters, and them blaming public bodies for delays is not always strictly accurate

Yeah, my mums estate took about a year and involved two property sales and a redraw of Croft title deeds. Five years sounds like taking the piss.

I don't know all the details because I am not a beneficiary but the estate involves various parcels of agricultural land where the deeds were problematic, which seemed to take an age to sort out. The family farm was also arranged as a partnership with my uncle and that fell to pieces shortly after my Dad passed away, so to be fair I don't think it has been easy for the solicitors.

Rural clients are hard to deal with. Half of it is done on handshakes, huge swathes of the land is unregistered and when the time comes, nothing resembles the plan on the deeds.

And then there's all the competing interests to balance, if one kid gets the farm, what do the others get? Will the farmhouse get Agricultural Property Relief from Inheritance Tax? Does anyone even want to farm when Dad is gone anyway?

[robmatic]

Yeah, my mums estate took about a year and involved two property sales and a redraw of Croft title deeds. Five years sounds like taking the piss.

I don't know all the details because I am not a beneficiary but the estate involves various parcels of agricultural land where the deeds were problematic, which seemed to take an age to sort out. The family farm was also arranged as a partnership with my uncle and that fell to pieces shortly after my Dad passed away, so to be fair I don't think it has been easy for the solicitors.

Rural clients are hard to deal with. Half of it is done on handshakes, huge swathes of the land is unregistered and when the time comes, nothing resembles the plan on the deeds.

And then there's all the competing interests to balance, if one kid gets the farm, what do the others get? Will the farmhouse get Agricultural Property Relief from Inheritance Tax? Does anyone even want to farm when Dad is gone anyway?

Yup, can confirm. Apparently someone in the family swapped some land with a neighbour at some point in the past but this was done informally. And some of the land we had been farming for generations was not registered.

[Hal Jordan]

Hmm, Winter Fuel payments goooooone for pensioners not on some form of means-tested benefit. Probably a good thing, even the dead get it if they were alive at the September date of qualification.

Hunt desperately trying to defend the Tories' record on everything.

[SaintK]

Hmm, Winter Fuel payments goooooone for pensioners not on some form of means-tested benefit. Probably a good thing, even the dead get it if they were alive at the September date of qualification.

Hunt desperately trying to defend the Tories' record on everything.

Absolutey not needed by a lot of pensioner households. My missus and I have been giving ours to foodbank/homeless charities since we;ve been reciving it
I can hear the howls of rage from my inlaws mind, even though they live ina £2.0M property and have investments coming out of their ears!!!!

[inactionman]

Hmm, Winter Fuel payments goooooone for pensioners not on some form of means-tested benefit. Probably a good thing, even the dead get it if they were alive at the September date of qualification.

Hunt desperately trying to defend the Tories' record on everything.

At least some of the price pressures coming off of fuel as well.

[I like neeps]

A significant amount of infrastructure spending also gone though.

It's great that the tax on private schools and Private Equity investments is being followed through.

[charltom]

A significant amount of infrastructure spending also gone though.

It's great that the tax on private schools and Private Equity investments is being followed through.

Is it?

The "tax on private schools" is in fact a tax on those who pay private school fees, who by the way also pay the tax that funds state schools without (currently) taking a state school place up.

It is painfully obvious how this policy will make things worse, not better.

For the record, I work for a state school but have experience of both sides, which is fairly rare.

[fishfoodie]

A significant amount of infrastructure spending also gone though.

It's great that the tax on private schools and Private Equity investments is being followed through.

Just need to exponentially increase property taxes on >1 mlliion pound (non-primary) properties, & they might get people paying something like their fair share

[dpedin]

A significant amount of infrastructure spending also gone though.

It's great that the tax on private schools and Private Equity investments is being followed through.

Is it?

The "tax on private schools" is in fact a tax on those who pay private school fees, who by the way also pay the tax that funds state schools without (currently) taking a state school place up.

It is painfully obvious how this policy will make things worse, not better.

For the record, I work for a state school but have experience of both sides, which is fairly rare.

Analysis reckons between 3% and 7% might leave private sector due to additional VAT cost according to HoL research published in May this year. Birth rate in UK is still falling, primary school numbers have been falling since 2019 with secondary school numbers forecast to peak in 2026 before declining thereafter. Looks like there is sufficient capacity overall to soak up any fall out albeit there might be some local pressures?