GMP - Manchester Airport

[Slick]

No one has argued that it isn't controversial but you seem completely blinded to the level of violence these officers and by all accounts other officers and members of the public have been subjected to that provides context to the level of violence used to subdue them. You don't concede that anything they did was wrong and anything the police did was right.

Could half a dozen punches to the back of someone's head proved any less likely to seriously injure someone than a clearly pulled kick to a head. Yes, No.??

Critics line yourself and Guy will be equally as bloody unhappy when you have a completely ineffective police force unwilling to engage in any violent situation. It's a fucking dirty and difficult job that the majority of armchair critics would piss their pants doing.

You'll have to show me where I said or alluded to any of that. I said at least once, possibly twice, on this thread that most of the police action was professional.

What I'm arguing is that in the act of kicking the prostrate guy in the face, then stamping on his head before doing the knee drop on his back, the officer has lost control of himself and acted unprofessionally.

It seems I'm not alone in thinking this - the police themselves agree

The officer facing a criminal investigation was also served with a disciplinary notice to inform him he was being investigated for potential gross misconduct for a number of alleged breaches of police professional standards, including his use of force, an IOPC spokesperson said.

For the record, I support the police use of proportional force, up to and including lethal force when necessary. I would hope that at each level the officer using force would do so professionally and be in control of their temper and emotions.
I'm not naïve enough to think that police officers are automatons who can't lose their tempers, but there are consequences for them losing control

Criminal investigation is over the top in my view having seen the context, but a slap of the wrist / re-training seems reasonable. The lad he kicked and stomped on was no longer a threat, and the kick dig at the other one who by then was completely complying, was unnecessary. Copper allowed his emotions to get the better of him, which I'm sure most of us can sympathise with given the level of violence directed to him and others. The courts should hopefully give the guys a prison sentence, GBH, resisting arrest, lack of responsibility for the incident9s) or contrition etc.

Good post

[Guy Smiley]

Critics line yourself and Guy will be equally as bloody unhappy when you have a completely ineffective police force unwilling to engage in any violent situation. It's a fucking dirty and difficult job that the majority of armchair critics would piss their pants doing.

You've got no idea what I or anyone else would say.

You're allowing your emotions to colour your judgement. Perhaps you're about to lose control. Maybe you want to kick one of us in the head?

While we lie face down, having been subdued already.

Please step back from making personal allegations, name calling is one thing, but insinuating another bored member would do something like this is another, and beyond what is acceptable here. I am asking politely, i might not be so polite next time

Yeah...

had a think about that and I was out of line. Apologies to Blackmac, I never seriously meant to imply you'd do something like that. I was being a smart ass and it backfired.

[C69]

A Prison sentence?
Are there any fucking cells free?

Tbh, as an aside Manchester Airport is a shit hole, appallingly managed, dirt and filled with rude staff.

I've fucked off going there now and fly from Liverpool instead

There are multiple charges incoming for those lads. Including assaulting police officers, and I think there's some kind of charge available for trying to take their weapons, as well as general gbh, affray etc, and charges that relate to those things in an airport. They're going to jail.

My comment about prison was clearly taking the piss after the cluster fuck the Tories made of prison accomodation availablity

[Slick]

Top man

[Biffer]

A Prison sentence?
Are there any fucking cells free?

Tbh, as an aside Manchester Airport is a shit hole, appallingly managed, dirt and filled with rude staff.

I've fucked off going there now and fly from Liverpool instead

There are multiple charges incoming for those lads. Including assaulting police officers, and I think there's some kind of charge available for trying to take their weapons, as well as general gbh, affray etc, and charges that relate to those things in an airport. They're going to jail.

My comment about prison was clearly taking the piss after the cluster fuck the Tories made of prison accomodation availablity

Fairy nuff

[Uncle fester]

Match thread to be set up
"Blackmac versus Guy Smiley
Winner is whoever kicks the other in the head
Venue: Manchester airport"

Never mind. Peace in our time.

[Sandstorm]

Match thread to be set up
"Blackmac versus Guy Smiley
Winner is whoever kicks the other in the head
Venue: Manchester airport"

Neither will show up. Blackmac will be on holiday somewhere and Guy will be asleep after a long night at work.

[Blackmac]

Critics line yourself and Guy will be equally as bloody unhappy when you have a completely ineffective police force unwilling to engage in any violent situation. It's a fucking dirty and difficult job that the majority of armchair critics would piss their pants doing.

You've got no idea what I or anyone else would say.

You're allowing your emotions to colour your judgement. Perhaps you're about to lose control. Maybe you want to kick one of us in the head?

While we lie face down, having been subdued already.

Please step back from making personal allegations, name calling is one thing, but insinuating another bored member would do something like this is another, and beyond what is acceptable here. I am asking politely, i might not be so polite next time

Yeah...

had a think about that and I was out of line. Apologies to Blackmac, I never seriously meant to imply you'd do something like that. I was being a smart ass and it backfired.

It's an emotive subject mate and we all probably say things we regret. It touched a nerve because it was so far from the truth and I didn't exactly cover myself in glory with my response.

[Conor]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

[Guy Smiley]

You've got no idea what I or anyone else would say.

You're allowing your emotions to colour your judgement. Perhaps you're about to lose control. Maybe you want to kick one of us in the head?

While we lie face down, having been subdued already.

Please step back from making personal allegations, name calling is one thing, but insinuating another bored member would do something like this is another, and beyond what is acceptable here. I am asking politely, i might not be so polite next time

Yeah...

had a think about that and I was out of line. Apologies to Blackmac, I never seriously meant to imply you'd do something like that. I was being a smart ass and it backfired.

It's an emotive subject mate and we all probably say things we regret. It touched a nerve because it was so far from the truth and I didn't exactly cover myself in glory with my response.

Cheers ya big lunk. Beers?

[Blackmac]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

I'm not overly convinced he had the time to appreciate what had happened to them. He's had a bit of a doing off the fat brother before subduing him with the taser. He has his back to them most of the time and then has to deal with shit haircut brother who lands at least half a a dozen blows from behind before grabbing him round the neck and at that point they both go to the ground. I doubt he knew at that stage that they were injured.
The more I see it the more I am convinced that any lawyer worth his salt makes the case that he was an armed police officer in an international airport and suddenly subjected to an incredible degree of violence by numerous assailants. He perceived an attempt to take his weapons and felt he had to subdue the threat by any means possible to protect his life and the lives of others. Public opinion is now so heavily in his favour that there isn't a chance he gets convicted.

[Blackmac]

Yeah...

had a think about that and I was out of line. Apologies to Blackmac, I never seriously meant to imply you'd do something like that. I was being a smart ass and it backfired.

It's an emotive subject mate and we all probably say things we regret. It touched a nerve because it was so far from the truth and I didn't exactly cover myself in glory with my response.

Cheers ya big lunk. Beers?

Next time you're in town......

[Paddington Bear]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

There is something strangely amusing about the reaction of a group of blokes in a nightclub when they see a damsel in distress. Suddenly six coked up tradies from Watford become the heirs to the knights of Camelot. Has to be a good chance it was a factor in his response

[BnM]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

There's much more to policing than this. Security spots child/women trafficking, the female officer would be an important part of what's needed. Yes straight up fight women are more exposed.

Also given the misogyny and the sexual violence that some officers have been jailed for I think in the police generally their presence is essential.

[C69]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

There is something strangely amusing about the reaction of a group of blokes in a nightclub when they see a damsel in distress. Suddenly six coked up tradies from Watford become the heirs to the knights of Camelot. Has to be a good chance it was a factor in his response

What? Watford?

[Jockaline]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

It was a female that brought the guy down, before he was kicked.

[sockwithaticket]

Perhaps the presence of female officers did make the officer lose his head, but there again men are perfectly capable of losing the run of themselves when women aren't involved in the situation at all.

[TedMaul]

Guy and BMac are a couple. Love conquers all.

[Blackmac]

There is a social media account that posts clips of police making a mess of violent incidents. Many are of young, straight out of university male officers who are appalling compared with the two females in this incident, who despite taking a good hiding seemed to compose themselves reasonably quickly. Policing has moved on dramatically from big lads keeping the peace and there are huge aspects of the job where females are essential.

[Jock42]

There is a social media account that posts clips of police making a mess of violent incidents. Many are of young, straight out of university male officers who are appalling compared with the two females in this incident, who despite taking a good hiding seemed to compose themselves reasonably quickly. Policing has moved on dramatically from big lads keeping the peace and there are huge aspects of the job where females are essential.

I assume there's a lot of issues that, like us, are the result of a dilution in experience and knowledge due to understaffing and retention. I expect there's little to no chance to run exercises after their initial training either, can't put a price on drills.

[Biffer]

Female officers and security are actually a very good deployment to prevent things kicking off, someone who is loaded up is less likely to hit a woman than a man. Women bouncers are far more effective at defusing potentially dangerous situations.

[JM2K6]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

I'm not overly convinced he had the time to appreciate what had happened to them. He's had a bit of a doing off the fat brother before subduing him with the taser. He has his back to them most of the time and then has to deal with shit haircut brother who lands at least half a a dozen blows from behind before grabbing him round the neck and at that point they both go to the ground. I doubt he knew at that stage that they were injured.
The more I see it the more I am convinced that any lawyer worth his salt makes the case that he was an armed police officer in an international airport and suddenly subjected to an incredible degree of violence by numerous assailants. He perceived an attempt to take his weapons and felt he had to subdue the threat by any means possible to protect his life and the lives of others. Public opinion is now so heavily in his favour that there isn't a chance he gets convicted.

Is the problem here not going to be that the guy was very clearly subdued? Tasered, face down, clearly no longer a threat - a huge kick to the head AND a head stomp screams "I want to hurt this fucker badly". He may well get away with it as there will be a certain level of sympathy baked in, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

[inactionman]

I think it's probably asking a fair old bit for someone to make reasoned assessments of the state of an assailant in that situation.

A few seconds before the kick, the policeman was getting whaled round the head by that bloke. I'm pretty sure I'd want to make certain he's out of the game, and not be too worried about how elegantly I do it. Especially if I was worried about him or one of his mates grabbing my firearm, and especially if you're not sure where all the protagonists are.

[Paddington Bear]

I think it’s reasonably clear what punishment the policeman will face has gone from plausibly being dragged through the courts to internal disciplinary proceedings/retraining/possible loss of rank etc

[C T]

In rugby terms of a "Rugby incident", I'd call this a "Human incident".

I can't expect someone's thinking to be absolutely crystal clear after being attacked like that. Do I like to see someone who is clearly down being booted and stomped to the head? No, I don't. But do I understand the pressure that an incident like that can put on split second thoughts/actions? Yes, I can.

Some sort of internal slap on the wrist will do find, I think.

[Conor]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

I'm not overly convinced he had the time to appreciate what had happened to them. He's had a bit of a doing off the fat brother before subduing him with the taser. He has his back to them most of the time and then has to deal with shit haircut brother who lands at least half a a dozen blows from behind before grabbing him round the neck and at that point they both go to the ground. I doubt he knew at that stage that they were injured.
The more I see it the more I am convinced that any lawyer worth his salt makes the case that he was an armed police officer in an international airport and suddenly subjected to an incredible degree of violence by numerous assailants. He perceived an attempt to take his weapons and felt he had to subdue the threat by any means possible to protect his life and the lives of others. Public opinion is now so heavily in his favour that there isn't a chance he gets convicted.

Well thought out. Hopefully his solicitor takes up your reasoning in defence, rather than mine.

[Uncle fester]

I think it's probably asking a fair old bit for someone to make reasoned assessments of the state of an assailant in that situation.

A few seconds before the kick, the policeman was getting whaled round the head by that bloke. I'm pretty sure I'd want to make certain he's out of the game, and not be too worried about how elegantly I do it. Especially if I was worried about him or one of his mates grabbing my firearm, and especially if you're not sure where all the protagonists are.

For folks like us and maybe the yahoos they call police in the US but they are supposed to be trained for this.

We'll know more when the investigation completes.

[inactionman]

I think it's probably asking a fair old bit for someone to make reasoned assessments of the state of an assailant in that situation.

A few seconds before the kick, the policeman was getting whaled round the head by that bloke. I'm pretty sure I'd want to make certain he's out of the game, and not be too worried about how elegantly I do it. Especially if I was worried about him or one of his mates grabbing my firearm, and especially if you're not sure where all the protagonists are.

For folks like us and maybe the yahoos they call police in the US but they are supposed to be trained for this.

We'll know more when the investigation completes.

Not that I'm in any way experienced in this sort of thing, but I did a load of work in Defence and it's a truism that no-one really knows how they'll react until shit hits the fan.

In my world, we could design the best gear in the world but it needs to be usable by a tired and scared squaddie under immense stress. And that's not just 'muscle-memory actions', which continual drilling tends to embed, but also in interpreting and effectively deploying - situational awareness and decisioning fall apart under stress.

In this case, we can replicate the situations the policeman might experience in training, but we can't actually start hitting him round the head and place his safety in danger to fully condition him to this sort of situation.

Anyway, yep, I'd hope the investigation would cover all angles and take all this into account.

[Jock42]

I think it's probably asking a fair old bit for someone to make reasoned assessments of the state of an assailant in that situation.

A few seconds before the kick, the policeman was getting whaled round the head by that bloke. I'm pretty sure I'd want to make certain he's out of the game, and not be too worried about how elegantly I do it. Especially if I was worried about him or one of his mates grabbing my firearm, and especially if you're not sure where all the protagonists are.

For folks like us and maybe the yahoos they call police in the US but they are supposed to be trained for this.

We'll know more when the investigation completes.

"Supposed to be" being key here. Doing a couple of scenarios at the college doesn't always set you up to be able to cope with this level of emotion. Ongoing exercises putting people under pressure helps with that but how much time are they getting to do that?

[David in Gwent]

Allegedly charged and bailed.

[Paddington Bear]

The use of the phrase ‘all our communities’ in public statements from politicians/police is a depressing and telling one

[epwc]

Hi David, welcome back

[David in Gwent]

If history is a guide, then some of this will turn out to be untrue/exaggerated.

GMP released a statement after saying a female officer had been assaulted and had her nose broken. Armed officers were fearful for their weapons etc.

History isn't always a guide.

[sockwithaticket]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

I'm not overly convinced he had the time to appreciate what had happened to them. He's had a bit of a doing off the fat brother before subduing him with the taser. He has his back to them most of the time and then has to deal with shit haircut brother who lands at least half a a dozen blows from behind before grabbing him round the neck and at that point they both go to the ground. I doubt he knew at that stage that they were injured.
The more I see it the more I am convinced that any lawyer worth his salt makes the case that he was an armed police officer in an international airport and suddenly subjected to an incredible degree of violence by numerous assailants. He perceived an attempt to take his weapons and felt he had to subdue the threat by any means possible to protect his life and the lives of others. Public opinion is now so heavily in his favour that there isn't a chance he gets convicted.

Is the problem here not going to be that the guy was very clearly subdued? Tasered, face down, clearly no longer a threat - a huge kick to the head AND a head stomp screams "I want to hurt this fucker badly". He may well get away with it as there will be a certain level of sympathy baked in, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Even if we entertain 'heat of the moment'/not enough time passed to realise the the situation had defused defence for the kick and stamp on the prone bloke, how does that relate to the second guy the officer starts in on? The guy who was sitting on a chair with his hands on his head? The officer instructs chair guy to get down on the ground and when he starts to do so, but fails to manage it in a nano-second while keeping his hands on his head, the officer then kicks and punches (while holding a taser) him completely needlessly.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I think it's going to be very hard to sustain a claim someone is clearly subdued when mere moments before someone has been attacked from behind. Hopefully the police can do better than this, and better and more training is part of that, but I think we can can get a better outcome by not wanting to start a fight with those who actively police by telling them they need to recognise a defined outcome in a fluid environment just because we saw a still and/or some camera angles that support our judgement. Better at least for me in this to support the police generally, the office involved, and push for better training

[dpedin]

Quite a few years ago I went to a laser quest with some mates, one of whom was an undercover police officer with RUC and was fully trained on use of arms etc. We all thought he would win laser quest quite easily given he was an expert shot however he ended up last - every time someone came into view his training kicked in and he shouted his warning before shooting by which point he had been obliterated! He laughed about it but explained this had been ingrained into him and how he operated and it didn't matter it was a toy gun in his hand he still had to do the same process. I'm not sure what training the cop doing the head kicking had had but I'm pretty sure it hadn't included booting a man in the head who had been tasered and lying on the ground?

The yobs who kicked off the violence and assaulted the polis should be stand trial and hopefully go to prison, no matter what the wider contest nothing excuses their behavior. The policeman who kicked and stamped the head of the guy on the ground should also stand trial and be subject to the same laws of the land as everyone else regardless of the wider context as nothing excuses his behavior. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. As the polis themselves often remind the public one punch, or in this case kick, can kill.

At the end of the day trust in police is absolutely paramount. This trust has been eroded by a number of police actions in recent years - the Everard case, Damilola Taylor case, taking/sharing photos of murdered sisters, Bayoh case in Scotland, etc etc. The Casey report was pretty damning about the Met and from other reports the GMP are not much better. If police are allowed to drop kick and stamp on someone's head, no matter the circumstances, then they end up no better than the thugs they are trying to arrest and trust goes completely. If my mid 20s daughter who lives and works in London is in trouble and calls me for advice my first thought would be call the police ... I dont want my second thought to be shit should she call the police! If she decides to go on a march to peacefully protest about something close to her heart I don't want to worry about her being assaulted or worse by the Met or the GMP.

[SaintK]

This fucking dodgy lawyer Yakoob is stirring it up big time. Probably sees a major financial settlement from GMP somewhere down the line.
His brother is an active political agitator and was front and centre of the abuse that Labour candidates faced in constituencies with high numbers of Muslim voters during the election.

Yakoob is a grifter with a complex relationship with the truth. The family have been very very silly instructing him, particularly as they had to know the circumstances that gave rise to being kicked on the floor were going to come out sooner rather than later.

So the shit stirring lawyer stands down from the case.

The lawyer for the family at the centre of the Manchester airport brawl has said he is stepping aside as investigations into the incident gather pace.
Akhmed Yakoob became the focus of criticism after claiming 19-year-old Muhammed Fahir was the victim of an “attempted assassination” that had left him “fighting for his life”.
In footage that emerged at the weekend, Fahir could be seen throwing punches at police officers before being incapacitated with a Taser. An armed officer was then filmed kicking the teenager in the face and stamping on his head.

Looks like he's a Grade 1 cunt.

He came under investigation by the Solicitors Regulation Authority this year after he used social media to promote a false claim of racism against a young teacher.

[Paddington Bear]

This fucking dodgy lawyer Yakoob is stirring it up big time. Probably sees a major financial settlement from GMP somewhere down the line.
His brother is an active political agitator and was front and centre of the abuse that Labour candidates faced in constituencies with high numbers of Muslim voters during the election.

Yakoob is a grifter with a complex relationship with the truth. The family have been very very silly instructing him, particularly as they had to know the circumstances that gave rise to being kicked on the floor were going to come out sooner rather than later.

So the shit stirring lawyer stands down from the case.

The lawyer for the family at the centre of the Manchester airport brawl has said he is stepping aside as investigations into the incident gather pace.
Akhmed Yakoob became the focus of criticism after claiming 19-year-old Muhammed Fahir was the victim of an “attempted assassination” that had left him “fighting for his life”.
In footage that emerged at the weekend, Fahir could be seen throwing punches at police officers before being incapacitated with a Taser. An armed officer was then filmed kicking the teenager in the face and stamping on his head.

Looks like he's a Grade 1 cunt.

He came under investigation by the Solicitors Regulation Authority this year after he used social media to promote a false claim of racism against a young teacher.

He’s ‘stepping back’ in the same way that I’m withdrawing myself from selection at 6 for the Autumn Internationals

[Punter15]

Any takers for my theory that the female officers are part of the problem? Male officer's "overreaction" is basically that of a man protecting a female friend who has just been attacked by a man.

I'm not overly convinced he had the time to appreciate what had happened to them. He's had a bit of a doing off the fat brother before subduing him with the taser. He has his back to them most of the time and then has to deal with shit haircut brother who lands at least half a a dozen blows from behind before grabbing him round the neck and at that point they both go to the ground. I doubt he knew at that stage that they were injured.
The more I see it the more I am convinced that any lawyer worth his salt makes the case that he was an armed police officer in an international airport and suddenly subjected to an incredible degree of violence by numerous assailants. He perceived an attempt to take his weapons and felt he had to subdue the threat by any means possible to protect his life and the lives of others. Public opinion is now so heavily in his favour that there isn't a chance he gets convicted.

Is the problem here not going to be that the guy was very clearly subdued? Tasered, face down, clearly no longer a threat - a huge kick to the head AND a head stomp screams "I want to hurt this fucker badly". He may well get away with it as there will be a certain level of sympathy baked in, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

When the two clips are watched together, there is very little time between the events. The copper hits the floor with the cultural enricher, jumps straight up and boots him. I think it's very likely he had no idea that the guy was out of action, but rather making sure that he would be.

[Hugo]

Quite a few years ago I went to a laser quest with some mates, one of whom was an undercover police officer with RUC and was fully trained on use of arms etc. We all thought he would win laser quest quite easily given he was an expert shot however he ended up last - every time someone came into view his training kicked in and he shouted his warning before shooting by which point he had been obliterated! He laughed about it but explained this had been ingrained into him and how he operated and it didn't matter it was a toy gun in his hand he still had to do the same process. I'm not sure what training the cop doing the head kicking had had but I'm pretty sure it hadn't included booting a man in the head who had been tasered and lying on the ground?

The yobs who kicked off the violence and assaulted the polis should be stand trial and hopefully go to prison, no matter what the wider contest nothing excuses their behavior. The policeman who kicked and stamped the head of the guy on the ground should also stand trial and be subject to the same laws of the land as everyone else regardless of the wider context as nothing excuses his behavior. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. As the polis themselves often remind the public one punch, or in this case kick, can kill.

At the end of the day trust in police is absolutely paramount. This trust has been eroded by a number of police actions in recent years - the Everard case, Damilola Taylor case, taking/sharing photos of murdered sisters, Bayoh case in Scotland, etc etc. The Casey report was pretty damning about the Met and from other reports the GMP are not much better. If police are allowed to drop kick and stamp on someone's head, no matter the circumstances, then they end up no better than the thugs they are trying to arrest and trust goes completely. If my mid 20s daughter who lives and works in London is in trouble and calls me for advice my first thought would be call the police ... I dont want my second thought to be shit should she call the police! If she decides to go on a march to peacefully protest about something close to her heart I don't want to worry about her being assaulted or worse by the Met or the GMP.

In my opinion the suspects pose a far greater threat to your daughter and to public safety than the over zealous police officer and if an example is not made of them a terrible message is sent that you can assault a police officer and get away with it.

It looks to me like the police officer got carried away in the heat of the moment here which is pretty excusable given just seconds before kicking the suspect he had punches raining down upon him. He may have been concussed, certainly his decision making was impaired and his survival instincts were heightened. Someone with a resting heart rate and breathing would not have done what he did but I think the aggression of the suspects will prove a mitigating factor. He will genuinely be able to argue that he felt in danger of his life and the lives of his colleagues and at the time of the kick it was not apparent that the situation was under complete control.