Angry White Men

[petej]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

Although I think the issue is way overblown I think there’s something wrong with a society that relies on mass migration to function.

I do agree with that.

[epwc]

Yes. To take the most emotive example - it is a government failure, a massive one, that we require foreign doctors. Can’t change overnight but can be changed in a decade or so

With the islamophobic shit that the tories were spouting and now this there are many young British Muslims who are thinking of emigrating, including of course lots of health professionals(my nephew is one)

[Paddington Bear]

Yes. To take the most emotive example - it is a government failure, a massive one, that we require foreign doctors. Can’t change overnight but can be changed in a decade or so

With the islamophobic shit that the tories were spouting and now this there are many young British Muslims who are thinking of emigrating, including of course lots of health professionals(my nephew is one)

I think in fairness there are medics of all ethnicities looking to emigrate because of shitty pay and conditions above all else.

[epwc]

Yes. To take the most emotive example - it is a government failure, a massive one, that we require foreign doctors. Can’t change overnight but can be changed in a decade or so

With the islamophobic shit that the tories were spouting and now this there are many young British Muslims who are thinking of emigrating, including of course lots of health professionals(my nephew is one)

I think in fairness there are medics of all ethnicities looking to emigrate because of shitty pay and conditions above all else.

I can tell you categorically that Islamophobia is a major concern for him. He regularly faces abuse (from patients) at work, the current environment is giving lots of young Muslims an additional nudge

[Paddington Bear]

With the islamophobic shit that the tories were spouting and now this there are many young British Muslims who are thinking of emigrating, including of course lots of health professionals(my nephew is one)

I think in fairness there are medics of all ethnicities looking to emigrate because of shitty pay and conditions above all else.

I can tell you categorically that Islamophobia is a major concern for him. He regularly faces abuse (from patients) at work, the current environment is giving lots of young Muslims an additional nudge

Fair enough. The whole situation is tragic

[Biffer]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

Too many old people, not enough young people.

[JM2K6]

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

I think there is very little evidence that anyone but the nazi tattoo brigade want deportations.

"Kick them out" was a refrain in vox pops during Brexit, so let's not pretend that's not an obvious next step for those currently obsessing over foreigners in the UK.

As I say, we are in the midst of a decade that is the largest demographic transformation in this island’s recorded history. Obviously an unprovable counterfactual, but net migration closer to 100,000 each year of the last decade and I’m not convinced we get scenes like this.

Larger than immediately post war, or post our joining the EU? Are you factoring in the huge numbers of foreign born people who left in the years after Brexit?

As for proof that they have the power - as I’ve said above every party that has won an election for 40 years has promised to cut migration and done the opposite. You can’t just lie forever and expect people to suck it up.

I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of what each party campaigned on, and I'm on my mobile which makes research tricky, but 1997 labour didn't mention immigration at all in their campaign, and I don't believe they did in 2001 either. 2005 was definitely a different story.

[petej]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

Too many old people, not enough young people.

Too many unhealthy people as well. Mass infrastructure renewal as lots of stuff nears end of life that really should have been done over the last 14 years before that generation retired when burrowing was cheaper and you had less dependents.

[Paddington Bear]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

I think there is very little evidence that anyone but the nazi tattoo brigade want deportations.

As I say, we are in the midst of a decade that is the largest demographic transformation in this island’s recorded history. Obviously an unprovable counterfactual, but net migration closer to 100,000 each year of the last decade and I’m not convinced we get scenes like this.

Larger than immediately post war, or post our joining the EU? Are you factoring in the huge numbers of foreign born people who left in the years after Brexit?

It’s worth looking at the migration figures from the 1950s to realise just how mythologised the Windrush generation is compared to the reality. What has happened over the last few years is roughly tenfold larger. And yes, I’m using net migration figures

[epwc]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

[JM2K6]

I think there is very little evidence that anyone but the nazi tattoo brigade want deportations.

As I say, we are in the midst of a decade that is the largest demographic transformation in this island’s recorded history. Obviously an unprovable counterfactual, but net migration closer to 100,000 each year of the last decade and I’m not convinced we get scenes like this.

Larger than immediately post war, or post our joining the EU? Are you factoring in the huge numbers of foreign born people who left in the years after Brexit?

It’s worth looking at the migration figures from the 1950s to realise just how mythologised the Windrush generation is compared to the reality. What has happened over the last few years is roughly tenfold larger. And yes, I’m using net migration figures

You said demographic transformation, so I assumed we were talking about more than just pure numbers of foreign immigration. Late 40s England wasn't exactly diverse, and there was a huge amount of influx from all over - a genuine demographic change. Can we say the same about the last decade, or is it just a shift in existing numbers? The largest ethnic group in that cohort is Indian, and we've gone from 1m to 1.8m in ~25 years - is that transformation?

[fishfoodie]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

Too many old people, not enough young people.

There's also the simple supply & demand element.

Sure; maybe you need say 500k new houses/units per year now; but you are an aging population, so you don't need to train UK trades for building 500k houses, you need to train for say 250k, & then fill the gap for the next 5 years with immigrants.

[petej]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

Considering the locations we could probably change British to English.

[Niegs]

Yes. To take the most emotive example - it is a government failure, a massive one, that we require foreign doctors. Can’t change overnight but can be changed in a decade or so

With the islamophobic shit that the tories were spouting and now this there are many young British Muslims who are thinking of emigrating, including of course lots of health professionals(my nephew is one)

Fancy moving to rural Canada?


There was a popular sitcom about life there...

[lemonhead]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

I think there is very little evidence that anyone but the nazi tattoo brigade want deportations.

"Kick them out" was a refrain in vox pops during Brexit, so let's not pretend that's not an obvious next step for those currently obsessing over foreigners in the UK.

As I say, we are in the midst of a decade that is the largest demographic transformation in this island’s recorded history. Obviously an unprovable counterfactual, but net migration closer to 100,000 each year of the last decade and I’m not convinced we get scenes like this.

Larger than immediately post war, or post our joining the EU? Are you factoring in the huge numbers of foreign born people who left in the years after Brexit?

As for proof that they have the power - as I’ve said above every party that has won an election for 40 years has promised to cut migration and done the opposite. You can’t just lie forever and expect people to suck it up.

I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of what each party campaigned on, and I'm on my mobile which makes research tricky, but 1997 labour didn't mention immigration at all in their campaign, and I don't believe they did in 2001 either. 2005 was definitely a different story.

One of the reasons I hated the referendum in the first place. A binary vote in a country that does not 'do' referendums, one that could be (and was) interpreted in any number of dozens of ways both before and forever after. Our right honorable expletives were still seeing Jesus in the tea leaves all the way through Article 50.

Suppose it was mad to expect anything less than the appalling 'debate' and car crash that followed. In an area that really could've used some boring detail about what we were about to do and the real world consequences. UK politics these last few decades strikes all too often as 'always critical but never serious', rather than the other way round. A big game with lots of shouting.

We were none the wiser at the end of it why people voted (sovereignty, immigration, deprivation, rural divide, protest vote, hated coalition government, hated metropolitan elite, EU bureaucracy, EU direction, disinformation, splendid isolation, blue passports, crazy unicorn uplands etc.). 

In countries that do hold them on a regular basis you get some sense of a national conversation taking place, about society and people's collective future. I don't suppose everyone likes or engages with them all the time (Swiss have them practically coming out the bloody ears) and the UK does indirect democracy anyway - but there's also a complete absence of any national narrative. In a country that probably could do with some collective sense of purpose right now.

Could we ever just get over the disingenuous soundbites and arguing over immigration like it's some vast elemental force or a huge effing waterfall needing the right kind of sink plug and instead hear some actual detail now and again. What numbers are manageable, healthy - or indeed desirable to keep the bloody lights on. What types of skills, what public services are most in need, why, and how we plan to deal with in future. For such an emotive subject, why is there no attempt to persuade or even explain on the right approach? And acknowledge the challenges and how to rectify them.

Or is the average voter expected to be simply too coked up on booze, fags and Strictly to even give a shit? The only change you can see from here comes through some remarkable uplift in living standards to butterfly this all back to the margins again. A complete pantomime from start to finish, and the grifting shits from a decade ago are still inexplicably here and profiting handsomely off it.

[Slick]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

And right on queue “Palestinian flag waving”, which I presume is the BBC way of saying Asian, youths kick off in Birmingham

[Slick]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

Considering the locations we could probably change British to English.

And the major difference between these parts of England and, say Scotland, is the scale of immigration

[dpedin]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

Considering the locations we could probably change British to English.

And the major difference between these parts of England and, say Scotland, is the scale of immigration

This is true but Scotland also has a far more serious problem with its demography and is in desperate need for immigrants to boost the working age population. The Scottish Government has been clear that we need and welcome immigration to address gaps in the workforce caused by an aging elderly population needing increased levels of care. The birthrate in Scotland has been well below the 2.1 children per child bearing women, closer to 1.3, to sustain our population, our economy and our services. Brexit was a major disaster for Scotland because it deprived us of a large supply of a skilled younger workforce. No immigrants are taking anyones jobs in Scotland, problem is no one is taking the jobs!

[Slick]

Considering the locations we could probably change British to English.

And the major difference between these parts of England and, say Scotland, is the scale of immigration

This is true but Scotland also has a far more serious problem with its demography and is in desperate need for immigrants to boost the working age population. The Scottish Government has been clear that we need and welcome immigration to address gaps in the workforce caused by an aging elderly population needing increased levels of care. The birthrate in Scotland has been well below the 2.1 children per child bearing women, closer to 1.3, to sustain our population, our economy and our services. Brexit was a major disaster for Scotland because it deprived us of a large supply of a skilled younger workforce. No immigrants are taking anyones jobs in Scotland, problem is no one is taking the jobs!

100% agree. I’d like to see us getting more control over our policy and managing it properly

[Paddington Bear]

Larger than immediately post war, or post our joining the EU? Are you factoring in the huge numbers of foreign born people who left in the years after Brexit?

It’s worth looking at the migration figures from the 1950s to realise just how mythologised the Windrush generation is compared to the reality. What has happened over the last few years is roughly tenfold larger. And yes, I’m using net migration figures

You said demographic transformation, so I assumed we were talking about more than just pure numbers of foreign immigration. Late 40s England wasn't exactly diverse, and there was a huge amount of influx from all over - a genuine demographic change. Can we say the same about the last decade, or is it just a shift in existing numbers? The largest ethnic group in that cohort is Indian, and we've gone from 1m to 1.8m in ~25 years - is that transformation?

I take (and see) your point. What I would say first is that net migration has been so high that the 2021 census is already out of date.

Also, and at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, India is a vast country with a wide range of people. Our established Indian population are well integrated, have very low levels of welfare dependency and high levels of academic achievement. The post-2019 arrivals are on the whole very clearly different; lower skilled, poorer English, having grown up in a nation that over a decade or so under Modi has become rampantly xenophobic, and with enough areas of Britain now with a plurality of Indian origin people and in the era of the smartphone, they are showing very very little desire to integrate. So I think that there is both a qualitative and quantitive difference in what has happened recently.

That this demographic change has taken place against the will of the electorate in a nation that already had a housing crisis and creaking public services has turned what was always going to be a hairy experience into a total shitshow.

[Blackmac]

"an army of specialist police officers"

He cannot be serious about this, and who in their right mind thinks it is even feasible.

[epwc]

"an army of specialist police officers"

He cannot be serious about this, and who in their right mind thinks it is even feasible.

No one sensible, but you know…,

[Sandstorm]

Good summary above by Lemonhead.

[Sandstorm]

We’ve covered a lot of ground now but I still can’t see how white British males are somehow more disempowered or oppressed than others.

There’s all sorts of people that have every right to be angry, hopefully they won’t all choose rioting as their means of communicating that

And right on queue “Palestinian flag waving”, which I presume is the BBC way of saying Asian, youths kick off in Birmingham

BBC reporter on the ground called them young Muslim men

[epwc]

PB just to add, I take your point that for whatever reason white people are disturbed by changes in demography but I can tell you all 3 of my daughters who look 100% white are anxious about the future in a country with visibly increasing xenophobia and now open racism.

Who should we care more about?

Have you seen this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj622z0w7n0o

I can’t say anything to assuage their fears this is real physical violence happening in front of their eyes

[epwc]

Good summary above by Lemonhead.

Yep

[Random1]

It’s worth looking at the migration figures from the 1950s to realise just how mythologised the Windrush generation is compared to the reality. What has happened over the last few years is roughly tenfold larger. And yes, I’m using net migration figures

You said demographic transformation, so I assumed we were talking about more than just pure numbers of foreign immigration. Late 40s England wasn't exactly diverse, and there was a huge amount of influx from all over - a genuine demographic change. Can we say the same about the last decade, or is it just a shift in existing numbers? The largest ethnic group in that cohort is Indian, and we've gone from 1m to 1.8m in ~25 years - is that transformation?

I take (and see) your point. What I would say first is that net migration has been so high that the 2021 census is already out of date.

Also, and at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, India is a vast country with a wide range of people. Our established Indian population are well integrated, have very low levels of welfare dependency and high levels of academic achievement. The post-2019 arrivals are on the whole very clearly different; lower skilled, poorer English, having grown up in a nation that over a decade or so under Modi has become rampantly xenophobic, and with enough areas of Britain now with a plurality of Indian origin people and in the era of the smartphone, they are showing very very little desire to integrate. So I think that there is both a qualitative and quantitive difference in what has happened recently.

That this demographic change has taken place against the will of the electorate in a nation that already had a housing crisis and creaking public services has turned what was always going to be a hairy experience into a total shitshow.

Agree with all of this.

The only dynamic I’d add (at the risk of being shouted down) is the culture war element.

There is slightly less push back against racism, because everything is now deemed racism. Everything from skewed university entry through to white privilege just ostracises white people. It leaves space for conspiracy theory, because people feel like the state is socially engineering to favour anyone but white men.. This makes it feel like the majority aren’t in power, which allows Tommy Robinson etc to paint a picture of a demographic war, as if white people become a minority, imagine what will happen (I don’t agree with him, I’m just saying concepts like white privilege just leaves a vacuum of empathy, which Robinson etc exploit).

Add on top of that, masculinity is now deemed toxic.

So we’re at a point where white people are all inherently racist and privileged, so there is no longer a discernible line between racists and non racists.

Masculinity is toxic, so there’s no longer a line between men and toxic men.

To be absolutely clear, I’m not saying the twats on the street aren’t toxic racist twats. What I’m saying is that the natural bulwark of people down the pub or in the work place have stopped engaging in the conversation on racism and male toxicity in those places because there is no longer a good/bad divide.

Literally just being a straight white male is offensive, unless you choose to be an active ally, even if you don’t agree that straight, white male privilege exists.

Ostracising a large chunk of the population increases the risk that a large enough number of low IQ idiots can be rallied by bad actors.

[Sandstorm]

Gender wars, white privilege, masculinity are all complicated concepts and not very well debated or explained. I'm well-educated and well-read and I find these things confusing & get worried I'll say the wrong thing.
Imagine being a 40-something white bloke who left school at 16 and can barely read the mixing instructions on a bag of plaster.... His usual response is going to be a defensive, aggressive one.

[Margin__Walker]

Not sure I agree with that Random

I'm a straight white male. Not outwardly an ally of anything. Definitely don't go anywhere near the he/him pronoun stuff ect. I'm pretty far form the 'woke/antifa' end of the spectrum as it's painted in the online discourse.

I've never felt that my presence is toxic though.


It's an interesting thread though as this whole thing does seem to be primarily a male phenomenon. Where are the angry white women? Sure there are a scattering, but they are really under represented in what's happening. Do they not have the same concerns, how does this poll etc?

One thing I find challenging is the strawmen that get thrown up when talking about the issue in many spaces. If you criticise those out on the streets chucking rocks or those online that are facilitating the discourse that leads people to do so, you're in the all immigration is welcome camp.

Clearly it's a hugely complex issue, with legal immigration driving the majority of the figures. And of course there are societal pressures that follow. Calling out the danger of the far right out on the streets and the structures enabling them, isn't the same as believing there should be no restrictions on immigration. Not something that's prevalent on here to be fair but it's front and centre elsewhere online. There's very little room for nuance.

[epwc]

Lack of education is no excuse, I left school at 16 with 5 O levels

[epwc]

Literally just being a straight white male is offensive, unless you choose to be an active ally, even if you don’t agree that straight, white male privilege exists.

Ostracising a large chunk of the population increases the risk that a large enough number of low IQ idiots can be rallied by bad actors.

I'm sorry I just don't see that in my life, you can choose to see it, but it's a fiction as far as I can tell. On building sites I come across lots of straight white males some are clearly examples of Angry White Men, others aren't. From the same background, same educational attainment, same geographical areas. Why that difference exists I don't know.

[Sandstorm]

Lack of education is no excuse, I left school at 16 with 5 O levels

Many leave with none. I also reckon you have improved yourself since school and strived to be better. Those fucks throwing rocks and trying to smash through a hotel door with a fucking tree branch have not.

[Paddington Bear]

PB just to add, I take your point that for whatever reason white people are disturbed by changes in demography but I can tell you all 3 of my daughters who look 100% white are anxious about the future in a country with visibly increasing xenophobia and now open racism.

Who should we care more about?

Have you seen this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj622z0w7n0o

I can’t say anything to assuage their fears this is real physical violence happening in front of their eyes

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

[petej]

Gender wars, white privilege, masculinity are all complicated concepts and not very well debated or explained. I'm well-educated and well-read and I find these things confusing & get worried I'll say the wrong thing.
Imagine being a 40-something white bloke who left school at 16 and can barely read the mixing instructions on a bag of plaster.... His usual response is going to be a defensive, aggressive one.

Then in certain work environments pummeled at you through compulsory training dictated by constant micro aggressions from passive aggressive HR departments.

I've had 3 rounds of unconscious bias training only 1 of which was v.good and 1 of which was definitely "your white and male therefore inherently terrible".

Most of this training could be summarised in to don't be an insensitive numpty. Some people give it far more attention then it deserves.

[Random1]

Not sure I agree with that Random

I'm a straight white male. Not outwardly an ally of anything. Definitely don't go anywhere near the he/him pronoun stuff ect. I'm pretty far form the 'woke/antifa' end of the spectrum as it's painted in the online discourse.

I've never felt that my presence is toxic though.


It's an interesting thread though as this whole thing does seem to be primarily a male phenomenon. Where are the angry white women? Sure there are a scattering, but they are really under represented in what's happening. Do they not have the same concerns, how does this poll etc?

One thing I find challenging is the strawmen that get thrown up when talking about the issue in many spaces. If you criticise those out on the streets chucking rocks or those online that are facilitating the discourse that leads people to do so, you're in the all immigration is welcome camp.

Clearly it's a hugely complex issue, with legal immigration driving the majority of the figures. And of course there are societal pressures that follow. Calling out the danger of the far right out on the streets and the structures enabling them, isn't the same as believing there should be no restrictions on immigration. Not something that's prevalent on here to be fair but it's front and centre elsewhere online. There's very little room for nuance.

Your exposure may not be the same as others though. Just off the top of my head;

The Rotherham grooming scandal. Social services and the police have admitted one of the reasons they didn’t tackle it, is they were concerned about being called racist.

For me, I think there’s a fairly strong argument to say this is related to the idea of white privilege ie that white people need to be hyper conscious of their implicit bias and expressing this implicit bias is racism and societally disgusting. .

Another case is the Manchester bombing, where the security guard didn’t act upon suspicions he had about the bomber because he feared being named a racist.

It’s these sorts of examples the right wing media put forward as examples of how white people are being put at risk due to the current approach to race.

. Regardless of how uncomfortable it makes me feel - I think it’s fair to say that if those police and that security guard had acted on their instinct, rather than thinking about race, there would be a load of girls alive today that aren’t.

Throw in low IQ, a mass stabbing, proper racists like Tommy manynames and some Russian fuckery on social media, and it’s really not a surprise to me that some white males are feeling justified in some of this.

[Random1]

Lack of education is no excuse, I left school at 16 with 5 O levels

Big difference between low education and low IQ.

[Random1]

Literally just being a straight white male is offensive, unless you choose to be an active ally, even if you don’t agree that straight, white male privilege exists.

Ostracising a large chunk of the population increases the risk that a large enough number of low IQ idiots can be rallied by bad actors.

I'm sorry I just don't see that in my life, you can choose to see it, but it's a fiction as far as I can tell. On building sites I come across lots of straight white males some are clearly examples of Angry White Men, others aren't. From the same background, same educational attainment, same geographical areas. Why that difference exists I don't know.

Yes, there will be different views across a race and sex. This is always the risk of identity politics - straight white men are not a monolith. They will have different experiences, education, iq, family, personalities, values etc. all of which drive their behaviour.

[Random1]

PB just to add, I take your point that for whatever reason white people are disturbed by changes in demography but I can tell you all 3 of my daughters who look 100% white are anxious about the future in a country with visibly increasing xenophobia and now open racism.

Who should we care more about?

Have you seen this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj622z0w7n0o

I can’t say anything to assuage their fears this is real physical violence happening in front of their eyes

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

[Paddington Bear]

PB just to add, I take your point that for whatever reason white people are disturbed by changes in demography but I can tell you all 3 of my daughters who look 100% white are anxious about the future in a country with visibly increasing xenophobia and now open racism.

Who should we care more about?

Have you seen this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj622z0w7n0o

I can’t say anything to assuage their fears this is real physical violence happening in front of their eyes

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

[Random1]

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You got time to expand on that? As I’m of the exact opposite view. But I’m not sure why!