Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[I like neeps]

Have strict caps on immigration for the next 10 years and Middlesbrough remains a economically inactive sh*thole sadly. Transformational change is needed in the UK to improve the life chances of people born out with London and surrounds.

Yes, and as I've previously said "levelling up" will likely take 3 terms to begin having a meaningful effect, but that's only if the intent really is there.

Far far longer than that - look at Germany. It won't get better for a generation at least.

[_Os_]

An LBC caller with an anecdote isn't really evidence of anything. There's no vetting of these callers. I doubt it's true as they were riots in London so he'd have to reason to go a place with low immigration to riot. But anyway even if it is true it's hardly an economic marker of success anyway affording a drive to Middlesbrough. And suggests his Monday morning isn't too busy if he can do an 8 hour round trip + rioting on a Sunday and then call LBC to tell the tale on the Monday.

True enough and well put. So if we just assume he's a liar other than he's from Harlow and if we also say you're right that it's about the economy. Then what has gone wrong with this guy's life and how does any government fix it? Would you say we end up back at individual action being the determining factor or not?

Some of these people I do feel a bit sorry for. The old school NF/BNP guy covered in Nazi tattoos, was obviously someone I would struggle to spend any time around to put it mildly, but there was also something sad and pitiful about him. He's clearly fucked up his life, somewhere in there it's the choices he took not just impersonal forces. He's fucked his life, that caller maybe has not yet, if all that caller is told is "you are sort of not to blame for anything happening in your life" how will he turn it around on his own?

You just need to look at the people who have been arrested. A number have multiple convictions. They aren't productive members of society as productive members of society don't have the incentive to riot. They have legitimate grievances in that the UK economy means if you're born in Middlesbrough you'll likely have a worse life with worse outcomes than if you're born somewhere more economically productive. And you can blame immigrants for the reason you don't have a great job, and the town centre is a sh*thole, but it's not the fault of immigrants or even immigration policy. Have strict caps on immigration for the next 10 years and Middlesbrough remains a economically inactive sh*thole sadly. Transformational change is needed in the UK to improve the life chances of people born out with London and surrounds.

Again, well put and I agree. But transformational change isn't on the menu (we've agreed before it is needed and wanted more from Starmer), the UK economy is flat. in Middlesbrough (referencing there, because that's what I've seen most footage of) groups of children/teenagers were conducting a lot of the damage done to houses and cars in the area where most brown/black people lived, I think we can agree they really are more fully a product of their environment and not their own free individual choices (just not old enough). Focusing on the children removes some of the disagreement about the caller and individual choices. The question then is what in their environment is making those children target people who at that point were defenceless (no one stopped them whilst they did this), rather than study harder or try their hand at a micro business? It maybe sounds crazy, but is the sort of question which would be asked if some racial roles were reversed (basically "why aren't they integrated" meaning "why aren't they successful/civilised/polite"). I'm not convinced the reaction to difficulty has to be bad choices, if that is the environment they're in then it's one that's going to be resistant to attempts to economically uplift them too (easier to help someone who is helping themselves already).

[dpedin]

Have strict caps on immigration for the next 10 years and Middlesbrough remains a economically inactive sh*thole sadly. Transformational change is needed in the UK to improve the life chances of people born out with London and surrounds.

Yes, and as I've previously said "levelling up" will likely take 3 terms to begin having a meaningful effect, but that's only if the intent really is there.

Far far longer than that - look at Germany. It won't get better for a generation at least.

Strict caps on immigration will result in lower or zero economic growth in the UK and could well be the death knell for certain industries and some public services. It is a bit more complex and nuanced than is made out. For example the NHS has only survived the last 3-5 years because it has recruited doctors and nurses from abroad - 1 in 3 doctors and 1 in 4 nurses aren't British nationals. However this is becoming harder and harder as the UK is increasingly seen as not a very desirable place to work and live. Also the University sector is dependent upon fees from foreign students, many of whom come to study post graduate qualifications - lose this revenue stream and some universities will go bust and the contribution this makes to the UK economy begins to disappear. As I said in another post, there are also huge regional variations, areas like Scotland are desperate for immigrant workers as the birth rate is well down at 1.3 and well below the 2.1 required to sustain the population, many industries/public services are struggling to survive due to staff shortages. Many restaurants, bars etc are having to close for part of the week or only provide basic services as they cant recruit the staff. We need immigration from outside Scotland to sustain our economy and public services and to drive economic growth.

Of course immigration needs to be managed properly but to simplistically assume having strict caps on immigration will magically improve the UK, our economy and the lives of those less fortunate is just not true! In fact the problem we will increasingly face is selling the UK to those skilled workers looking to come and work here, we have to recognize we are in a competitive world wide marketplace. For example if we price the NHS jobs out of the market with NHS surcharges, extra immigrant taxes, etc and make those who do come here not welcome by pelting them with bricks on their way to work from their hotel then these doctors and nurses we desperately need will just go elsewhere. Some would argue this is already happening and is a big driver behind the significant workforce gaps the NHS has?

Immigration is an essential for economic growth and we need to have a more adult debate about this and how we position the UK in the world wide labour market for skilled workers. Making the UK a shit and expensive option for these immigrant workers is just cutting off our noses to spite our faces!

[epwc]

Making the UK a shit and expensive option for these immigrant workers is just cutting off our noses to spite our faces!

Absolutely

[I like neeps]

An LBC caller with an anecdote isn't really evidence of anything. There's no vetting of these callers. I doubt it's true as they were riots in London so he'd have to reason to go a place with low immigration to riot. But anyway even if it is true it's hardly an economic marker of success anyway affording a drive to Middlesbrough. And suggests his Monday morning isn't too busy if he can do an 8 hour round trip + rioting on a Sunday and then call LBC to tell the tale on the Monday.

True enough and well put. So if we just assume he's a liar other than he's from Harlow and if we also say you're right that it's about the economy. Then what has gone wrong with this guy's life and how does any government fix it? Would you say we end up back at individual action being the determining factor or not?

Some of these people I do feel a bit sorry for. The old school NF/BNP guy covered in Nazi tattoos, was obviously someone I would struggle to spend any time around to put it mildly, but there was also something sad and pitiful about him. He's clearly fucked up his life, somewhere in there it's the choices he took not just impersonal forces. He's fucked his life, that caller maybe has not yet, if all that caller is told is "you are sort of not to blame for anything happening in your life" how will he turn it around on his own?

You just need to look at the people who have been arrested. A number have multiple convictions. They aren't productive members of society as productive members of society don't have the incentive to riot. They have legitimate grievances in that the UK economy means if you're born in Middlesbrough you'll likely have a worse life with worse outcomes than if you're born somewhere more economically productive. And you can blame immigrants for the reason you don't have a great job, and the town centre is a sh*thole, but it's not the fault of immigrants or even immigration policy. Have strict caps on immigration for the next 10 years and Middlesbrough remains a economically inactive sh*thole sadly. Transformational change is needed in the UK to improve the life chances of people born out with London and surrounds.

Again, well put and I agree. But transformational change isn't on the menu (we've agreed before it is needed and wanted more from Starmer), the UK economy is flat. in Middlesbrough (referencing there, because that's what I've seen most footage of) groups of children/teenagers were conducting a lot of the damage done to houses and cars in the area where most brown/black people lived, I think we can agree they really are more fully a product of their environment and not their own free individual choices (just not old enough). Focusing on the children removes some of the disagreement about the caller and individual choices. The question then is what in their environment is making those children target people who at that point were defenceless (no one stopped them whilst they did this), rather than study harder or try their hand at a micro business? It maybe sounds crazy, but is the sort of question which would be asked if some racial roles were reversed (basically "why aren't they integrated" meaning "why aren't they successful/civilised/polite"). I'm not convinced the reaction to difficulty has to be bad choices, if that is the environment they're in then it's one that's going to be resistant to attempts to economically uplift them too (easier to help someone who is helping themselves already).

The reaction to difficulty isn't a bad choice, but there's a reason most people don't do difficult things.

People make individual choices, some good some bad. There's a reason kids from Mayfair have better life results than kids from Middlesbrough though. Life is easier when your parents have money because that means more choices and more chances to get your choices right.

The guy with the Nazi tattoos obviously made loads of bad choices in his life. Within a country where in Stoke (where's he's from) the choices you have are more limited than the choices you'd have in Sevenoaks however. So it's both societal and individual failing.

And all of that is just backed up by the data I'm afraid. Of course there are outliers and that's great. But, for a successful and peaceful society the UK needs to do is find a way that means geography is not destiny.

[Biffer]

Have strict caps on immigration for the next 10 years and Middlesbrough remains a economically inactive sh*thole sadly. Transformational change is needed in the UK to improve the life chances of people born out with London and surrounds.

Yes, and as I've previously said "levelling up" will likely take 3 terms to begin having a meaningful effect, but that's only if the intent really is there.

You won't see the term levelling up used again.

[Slick]

I'll caveat this by saying I don't understand a whole lot about it....

But, isn't part of the problem that business, particularly bigger business, deliberately paying shit wages and then using immigrant labour to take those shit paid jobs? You have millions of jobs in the UK that are paid so badly that an average UK national has to rely on the state to top it up to live any kind of life. How many people working full time at Tesco still have to claim benefits to make ends meet? If you have people coming into the country from abject poverty who are quite happy to live 12 adults to a small flat and take low wages it seems a bit much to turn round to people here and tell them they are lazy and feckless for not wanting to do that.

Of course there are skilled workers coming in, but the vast majority are not.

Is that really the economic growth we want?

[epwc]

You won't see the term levelling up used again.

I'm glad we won't but it's the concept we're talking about

[epwc]

Is that really the economic growth we want?

And is economic growth the only marker of our success as a nation? For my money we need to reduce the wealth disparity between the richest and poorest.

[I like neeps]

I'll caveat this by saying I don't understand a whole lot about it....

But, isn't part of the problem that business, particularly bigger business, deliberately paying shit wages and then using immigrant labour to take those shit paid jobs? You have millions of jobs in the UK that are paid so badly that an average UK national has to rely on the state to top it up to live any kind of life. How many people working full time at Tesco still have to claim benefits to make ends meet? If you have people coming into the country from abject poverty who are quite happy to live 12 adults to a small flat and take low wages it seems a bit much to turn round to people here and tell them they are lazy and feckless for not wanting to do that.

Of course there are skilled workers coming in, but the vast majority are not.

Is that really the economic growth we want?

It is a problem... But a lot of the industries that rely on immigration to fill gaps: NHS, Social Care, Agriculture and Fisheries, cleaning work etc are not industries to base an economy but they are fundamental. That's before the knowledge industries which pay quite well.

But again, social care and the NHS are already broken before there's good pay, supermarket cartels run agriculture and what is paid for what. So whilst there are bad industries and bad employers it's not the whole story.

[_Os_]

The reaction to difficulty isn't a bad choice, but there's a reason most people don't do difficult things.

True but it's also true people can become habituated to certain choices they're making. Some people keep making bad life choices which is often about avoiding difficulty. Easy for one of those teenagers to put lots of bricks through lots of windows, probably very difficult for them to concentrate on something long enough to become good at anything useful. An environment (wider than culture includes institutions like school) could be made where it's not beyond them. Learning a musical instrument is a standard middleclass thing to make children do, precisely to habituate them to difficulty and the experience of getting good at something the more they apply themselves.

People make individual choices, some good some bad. There's a reason kids from Mayfair have better life results than kids from Middlesbrough though. Life is easier when your parents have money because that means more choices and more chances to get your choices right.

The guy with the Nazi tattoos obviously made loads of bad choices in his life. Within a country where in Stoke (where's he's from) the choices you have are more limited than the choices you'd have in Sevenoaks however. So it's both societal and individual failing.

But what are the realistic chances of turning the environment of Middlesbrough into one comparable to Mayfair? None anytime soon and probably ever. The target must be to maximise the potential they have, much of which is being wasted.

And all of that is just backed up by the data I'm afraid. Of course there are outliers and that's great. But, for a successful and peaceful society the UK needs to do is find a way that means geography is not destiny.

I'm not aware of any country where geography doesn't play a significant role. In the UK the only time the north of England has had any economic strength was due to the industrial revolution. Looking at what's likely to happen, does it challenge London any time soon (this decade?) and if it cannot then what?

Sure there should be no geographic inequality, but if there is, then what is the plan?

[I like neeps]

The reaction to difficulty isn't a bad choice, but there's a reason most people don't do difficult things.

True but it's also true people can become habituated to certain choices they're making. Some people keep making bad life choices which is often about avoiding difficulty. Easy for one of those teenagers to put lots of bricks through lots of windows, probably very difficult for them to concentrate on something long enough to become good at anything useful. An environment (wider than culture includes institutions like school) could be made where it's not beyond them. Learning a musical instrument is a standard middleclass thing to make children do, precisely to habituate them to difficulty and the experience of getting good at something the more they apply themselves.

People make individual choices, some good some bad. There's a reason kids from Mayfair have better life results than kids from Middlesbrough though. Life is easier when your parents have money because that means more choices and more chances to get your choices right.

The guy with the Nazi tattoos obviously made loads of bad choices in his life. Within a country where in Stoke (where's he's from) the choices you have are more limited than the choices you'd have in Sevenoaks however. So it's both societal and individual failing.

But what are the realistic chances of turning the environment of Middlesbrough into one comparable to Mayfair? None anytime soon and probably ever. The target must be to maximise the potential they have, much of which is being wasted.

And all of that is just backed up by the data I'm afraid. Of course there are outliers and that's great. But, for a successful and peaceful society the UK needs to do is find a way that means geography is not destiny.

I'm not aware of any country where geography doesn't play a significant role. In the UK the only time the north of England has had any economic strength was due to the industrial revolution. Looking at what's likely to happen, does it challenge London any time soon (this decade?) and if it cannot then what?

Sure there should be no geographic inequality, but if there is, then what is the plan?

The UKs regional inequalities are particularly bad compared to our peers though.

Well exactly there is no plan. So things will continue to get worse - that's my original point.

[dpedin]

Is that really the economic growth we want?

And is economic growth the only marker of our success as a nation? For my money we need to reduce the wealth disparity between the richest and poorest.

Given its nature it is difficult to find up to date analysis of most recent immigration levels etc but almost all research I have seen is that migrants deliver a net positive to the UK economy. CEBR did some modelling of 2022 immigration and found that immigration led to a net positive impact of c£3.3b to UK economy by 2025. Without immigration then GDP would have been 0.94% lower, etc.

'We estimate the impacts by 2025, when the full effects will have worked through, of a scenario in which 2022’s net migration figure was zero. Our modelling finds that 2025 GDP would have been 0.94% lower, tax receipts would have been £9.4 billion less, and public spending would have been £6.1 billion less. The net positive fiscal impact is therefore £3.3 billion for each year.'

However they note that the impact of Brexit has been higher levels of immigration from non EU countries and that might lead to lower skill levels amongst current immigrants. Brexit has a lot to answer for?

[_Os_]

The UKs regional inequalities are particularly bad compared to our peers though.

Well exactly there is no plan. So things will continue to get worse - that's my original point.

I read somewhere it was equal to Italy's north/south divide. There was also the comparison to Mississippi (per capita income?).

It's just a statement of fact there's no plan, maybe unfair to say Labour's thin plan is nothing, but it's doing some heavy lifting now. I was more getting at there should be one.

What an unbelievable situation to end up in.

[epwc]

Brexit has a lot to answer for?

No question mark needed.

[Raggs]

I'll caveat this by saying I don't understand a whole lot about it....

But, isn't part of the problem that business, particularly bigger business, deliberately paying shit wages and then using immigrant labour to take those shit paid jobs? You have millions of jobs in the UK that are paid so badly that an average UK national has to rely on the state to top it up to live any kind of life. How many people working full time at Tesco still have to claim benefits to make ends meet? If you have people coming into the country from abject poverty who are quite happy to live 12 adults to a small flat and take low wages it seems a bit much to turn round to people here and tell them they are lazy and feckless for not wanting to do that.

Of course there are skilled workers coming in, but the vast majority are not.

Is that really the economic growth we want?

If there was no minimum wage, I'd agree. But there is. And if you're working full time (even taking that as 32 hours, not 40) you're earning well over the threshold to earn benefits.

I also have no idea if the majority of immigrants coming in are low skilled workers, but to get the visa you need to have a job offer showing a minimum sum. Or coming in to a needed area (such as care) and have a confirmed job offer. These jobs are available because natives don't want to work them. For spousal visa etc, you have to prove a sufficient income between the two of you, or very large savings.

The population is getting older, and fast, if we don't have young immigrants, the country will sink. Unless you practically remove retirement age.

The application fees along with NHS surcharges, are likely worth more than most lower wage earners pay in tax over several years, especially when you add in the fact that the immigrants are still paying taxes on top o that.

As pointed out before, none of these visas allow for recourse to public funds, no child benefit, no housing benefit, no jobseekers, no universal credit etc.

And if they live 12 adults to a small flat, then they can't simultaneously be responsible for the lack of housing, surely?

Yes there has to be a balance to immigration, but whilst life expectancy increases, and we have care needs that are covered by the state (as they should be), we need immigrants. Unless we have massive societal change that encourages 2-3 children in each household, houses big enough to accommodate, and opportunities or them, whilst simultaneously somehow making sure sufficient are willing to do the harder jobs, like care.

[_Os_]

There's a new list out there covering more of England including the south.

I do not post any details I've found about what's coming up next, but this is in the Times now, so seems okay to post. I've seen the location list, they've targeting a lot of places and people.

Far-right groups are using the encrypted messaging app Telegram to plot attacks on asylum lawyers this week, my colleagues

The groups are sharing an arson manual and tips on making petrol bombs

They are listing details of immigration lawyers and advice centres across England and telling members to attack them at a specified time mid-week

[I like neeps]

I'll caveat this by saying I don't understand a whole lot about it....

But, isn't part of the problem that business, particularly bigger business, deliberately paying shit wages and then using immigrant labour to take those shit paid jobs? You have millions of jobs in the UK that are paid so badly that an average UK national has to rely on the state to top it up to live any kind of life. How many people working full time at Tesco still have to claim benefits to make ends meet? If you have people coming into the country from abject poverty who are quite happy to live 12 adults to a small flat and take low wages it seems a bit much to turn round to people here and tell them they are lazy and feckless for not wanting to do that.

Of course there are skilled workers coming in, but the vast majority are not.

Is that really the economic growth we want?

If there was no minimum wage, I'd agree. But there is. And if you're working full time (even taking that as 32 hours, not 40) you're earning well over the threshold to earn benefits.

I also have no idea if the majority of immigrants coming in are low skilled workers, but to get the visa you need to have a job offer showing a minimum sum. Or coming in to a needed area (such as care) and have a confirmed job offer. These jobs are available because natives don't want to work them. For spousal visa etc, you have to prove a sufficient income between the two of you, or very large savings.

The population is getting older, and fast, if we don't have young immigrants, the country will sink. Unless you practically remove retirement age.

The application fees along with NHS surcharges, are likely worth more than most lower wage earners pay in tax over several years, especially when you add in the fact that the immigrants are still paying taxes on top o that.

As pointed out before, none of these visas allow for recourse to public funds, no child benefit, no housing benefit, no jobseekers, no universal credit etc.

And if they live 12 adults to a small flat, then they can't simultaneously be responsible for the lack of housing, surely?

Yes there has to be a balance to immigration, but whilst life expectancy increases, and we have care needs that are covered by the state (as they should be), we need immigrants. Unless we have massive societal change that encourages 2-3 children in each household, houses big enough to accommodate, and opportunities or them, whilst simultaneously somehow making sure sufficient are willing to do the harder jobs, like care.

Retirement age should be changed tbf. Pensions were designed to cover like 3 years not 30!

Retirement age hasn't gone up with life expectancy and it should. And I say that as someone a long way from retirement and as it's unaffordable will not have a long retirement anyway.

[fishfoodie]

There's a new list out there covering more of England including the south.

I do not post any details I've found about what's coming up next, but this is in the Times now, so seems okay to post. I've seen the location list, they've targeting a lot of places and people.

Far-right groups are using the encrypted messaging app Telegram to plot attacks on asylum lawyers this week, my colleagues

The groups are sharing an arson manual and tips on making petrol bombs

They are listing details of immigration lawyers and advice centres across England and telling members to attack them at a specified time mid-week

Any Baton rounds ever used in GB ?

The PSNI used a couple of them last night against this scum, & I'd have no issues with them being properly used against someone with a petrol bomb, because that's attempted murder in anyones language.

[epwc]

If there was no minimum wage, I'd agree. But there is. And if you're working full time (even taking that as 32 hours, not 40) you're earning well over the threshold to earn benefits.

I also have no idea if the majority of immigrants coming in are low skilled workers, but to get the visa you need to have a job offer showing a minimum sum. Or coming in to a needed area (such as care) and have a confirmed job offer. These jobs are available because natives don't want to work them. For spousal visa etc, you have to prove a sufficient income between the two of you, or very large savings.

The population is getting older, and fast, if we don't have young immigrants, the country will sink. Unless you practically remove retirement age.

The application fees along with NHS surcharges, are likely worth more than most lower wage earners pay in tax over several years, especially when you add in the fact that the immigrants are still paying taxes on top o that.

As pointed out before, none of these visas allow for recourse to public funds, no child benefit, no housing benefit, no jobseekers, no universal credit etc.

And if they live 12 adults to a small flat, then they can't simultaneously be responsible for the lack of housing, surely?

Yes there has to be a balance to immigration, but whilst life expectancy increases, and we have care needs that are covered by the state (as they should be), we need immigrants. Unless we have massive societal change that encourages 2-3 children in each household, houses big enough to accommodate, and opportunities or them, whilst simultaneously somehow making sure sufficient are willing to do the harder jobs, like care.

Good post

[tabascoboy]

Far-right groups are using the encrypted messaging app Telegram to plot attacks on asylum lawyers this week, my colleagues

The groups are sharing an arson manual and tips on making petrol bombs

They are listing details of immigration lawyers and advice centres across England and telling members to attack them at a specified time mid-week

Will Braverman break her recent silence on this I wonder, she has to take some responsibility given her past remarks

[tabascoboy]

Congrats Clactonites on your new MP

[_Os_]

Any Baton rounds ever used in GB ?

The PSNI used a couple of them last night against this scum, & I'd have no issues with them being properly used against someone with a petrol bomb, because that's attempted murder in anyones language.

Only PSNI personnel have the training?

The bigger issue is the organisers, they're domestic terrorists. There's both a planned and spontaneous element to this, the planned part needs to be shutdown, if that's not through the platform (Telegram is Russian) then it has to be through the people themselves. I have no doubt UK intelligence services are working on finding them. What their organisational structure is and if public faces like Tommy Ten Names are really that powerful, I have no clue.

[Hal Jordan]

On retirement age, I think when Attlee brought it in, the life expectancy of men was 62, and women 67, so the idea was that if you actually managed to reach retirement age, you wouldn't be around long to drain the public purse.

Now we can keep people existing (rather than living in many cases) for so long through medical improvements and not crippling the population with industrial diseases it's become much more of an issue, funding wise.

[fishfoodie]

Any Baton rounds ever used in GB ?

The PSNI used a couple of them last night against this scum, & I'd have no issues with them being properly used against someone with a petrol bomb, because that's attempted murder in anyones language.

Only PSNI personnel have the training?

The bigger issue is the organisers, they're domestic terrorists. There's both a planned and spontaneous element to this, the planned part needs to be shutdown, if that's not through the platform (Telegram is Russian) then it has to be through the people themselves. I have no doubt UK intelligence services are working on finding them. What their organisational structure is and if public faces like Tommy Ten Names are really that powerful, I have no clue.

That would make sense; I think I remember them being loaned to GB forces during other incidents.

[_Os_]

There's a lot of media management going on about this event. This looks worthwhile though:

Started with flooring a white guy squaring up to them outside a pub (very silly showing any attitude/squaring up/putting his fists up ... to a literal Muslim mob of 100s of people, looking for heads to kick in), the guy who started his beating also prevented him at the very least being hospitalised, casually walked up to him put on a lot of boxing steps and head movement (the white guy stood no chance) and floored him in a single hook, more then piled in when he was on the ground kicking him in the head and the first guy physically put his body over him and stopped it.

‘He’s barred’ says manager of Birmingham pub to man who was attacked there yesterday. Linda Ward says the man had goaded his attackers. We understand he used offensive language as Asian men walked past who then beat him up. I understand he has visited hospital since the attack
To clarify… the pub manager obviously condemned the violence that occurred. She had to barricade herself in her pub with patrons.

The pub manager didn't have to give the interview, she could've declined and no one would've known. Her account also fits my own (the only account I know of which does ... everyone else drew rather different conclusions, you wonder how many of them have ever seen a fight never mind been in one). Basically the guy was an idiot and was lucky the guy on the other side of the equation knew what they were doing had some authority and knew when he had enough.

The rest of the media management going on I'm less convinced by. Whilst it's true the guy at the pub was probably the only person beaten (the mob was large and there's a lot of video). None of the media management going on explains anything that happened with the cars, so that looks very much like vandalising the vehicles of innocent people in a combustible situation. There were 4 or so video when the Muslim man/woman filming is saying "no, this is wrong" but there's also a guy saying something like "we're here to show dominance", there is a Muslim guy literally shouting into a megaphone "we're Muslim, don't do this!" but that's when cars are being vandalised.

One thing we are starting to see is claims that Muslims are attacking whites indiscriminately who have nothing to do with this (usually supported by video which doesn't show that). Other than this incident there's no evidence of that I've seen (even then the only evidence of physical violence was on the pub guy). Every video I've seen outside of Middlesbrough isn't ambiguous (the white guy/s are all in black and masked, or has an England flag, or is in a small group and heavily tattooed in the location of a riot, or other "protestors" are filming afterwards and never say they're not "protestors", and usually some combination of all of that). In Middlesbrough it became very chaotic. I mapped some of it to try and make some sense out of it, the location of about half of the beatings (in the small area where most people who aren't white live and deep into a riot) and some other details (dressed all in black, in a small group with other young white men) doesn't indicate these are entirely unconnected people just passing by, in the other half it is more ambiguous as to what is going on (there's so many Muslims piling on you cannot even see the person being attacked).

It's different to "protestors" cheering innocent people (there's at least one instance where the victim is a woman) being beaten for not being white and residential homes of people who aren't white being attacked. But if this isn't stopped that distinction risks fading, Muslim leaders must be aware of this too hence the media management.

For me it just underlines even when there's good actors, the larger a mob is the more unpredictable things get and the more dangerous they become. When the police have the numbers they should be dispersing all gatherings. It's very lucky no one has died in any of this.

[Openside]

Dunno why the cops don’t have pepper spray canisters they can use to drive these guys back when they storm the police lines……..

They're totally overwhelmed and don't have infinite resources, if they decide to be in one place yesterday when there were more riots planned, it's difficult to be in another place today.

Each officer having a can of spray on his belt is infinite resources??

Peppr spray is a pretty blunt tool with almost as much risk of exposure to the user as the target, besides which have you seen how much clobber the police are already carrying?

[Sandstorm]

Pepper spray is a pretty blunt tool with almost as much risk of exposure to the user as the target, besides which have you seen how much clobber the police are already carrying?

Yes, I've seen many over-weight coppers struggling to keep up with their colleagues as the police lines move forward.

[earl the beaver]

Any chance we could get some of the non-racist English posters back on the bored?

[Sandstorm]

Any chance we could get some of the non-racist English posters back on the bored?

[Jock42]

Any Baton rounds ever used in GB ?

The PSNI used a couple of them last night against this scum, & I'd have no issues with them being properly used against someone with a petrol bomb, because that's attempted murder in anyones language.

Only PSNI personnel have the training?

The bigger issue is the organisers, they're domestic terrorists. There's both a planned and spontaneous element to this, the planned part needs to be shutdown, if that's not through the platform (Telegram is Russian) then it has to be through the people themselves. I have no doubt UK intelligence services are working on finding them. What their organisational structure is and if public faces like Tommy Ten Names are really that powerful, I have no clue.

That would make sense; I think I remember them being loaned to GB forces during other incidents.

Some forces definitely have them. I'm not sure if it's armed response or PO trained officers that are allowed to use them. I'd take a guess at just the former.

[fishfoodie]

Only PSNI personnel have the training?

The bigger issue is the organisers, they're domestic terrorists. There's both a planned and spontaneous element to this, the planned part needs to be shutdown, if that's not through the platform (Telegram is Russian) then it has to be through the people themselves. I have no doubt UK intelligence services are working on finding them. What their organisational structure is and if public faces like Tommy Ten Names are really that powerful, I have no clue.

That would make sense; I think I remember them being loaned to GB forces during other incidents.

Some forces definitely have them. I'm not sure if it's armed response or PO trained officers that are allowed to use them. I'd take a guess at just the former.

I think there are a lot of Politicians, & Police who would like to have something other than baton rounds as a option, as they are far from "Non-Lethal", history shows they have more than enough energy to kill, so using something like sand bags is preferable, as they will still stop someone, but they are much less likely to cause serious injury or death.

[Jock42]

That would make sense; I think I remember them being loaned to GB forces during other incidents.

Some forces definitely have them. I'm not sure if it's armed response or PO trained officers that are allowed to use them. I'd take a guess at just the former.

I think there are a lot of Politicians, & Police who would like to have something other than baton rounds as a option, as they are far from "Non-Lethal", history shows they have more than enough energy to kill, so using something like sand bags is preferable, as they will still stop someone, but they are much less likely to cause serious injury or death.

I can't comment on the sand bag option as I've no experience or knowledge on them but they definitely need something else. If they're still using the rounds we had nearly 20 years ago they couldn't be used below a certain temp for exactly your reasoning. I'm not sure how many fatalities there have been (if any) using those rounds as they were softer than the previous ones (until too cold). From that perspective alone there should be another option particularly if it can be fired from the baton gun, it could also be used as another level of escalation.

[_Os_]

This is interesting from the Croydon council and the police:

We are aware of rumours circulating online about reports of attacks in Croydon tomorrow (Wednesday 7 August). We want to confirm that our position remains the same - that at this time there is no police intelligence that we will see violent activity in Croydon.
However, we must all remain alert, vigilant and report any issues to the police.
When going about your day tomorrow, you may see more police officers in your local area. If anyone is concerned, has questions or needs help, please speak to them. They are there to help.
We will continue to work with the police who are monitoring intelligence. The police have also given assurance that if anything were to change, they have plans in place.

Probably why British Muslim influencers are using their platforms to say "don't go out, stay at home" as well.

Those behind the organised element of this at a minimum are making a list and then hoping something bad happens. That could be major chaos covering a town/city, or the incident at the Birmingham pub. Their aim likely being to create a cycle of violence, using out of context video is a key part of that (which is why I've posted no video, even from news reports that have, no one on here is anything but appalled by all this ... but still). They must be quite worried in Croydon (entirely reasonable given the 2011 riots) that something could happen where the "protestors" don't even show up, for the council and police to be saying "nothing will happen don't turn up".

[Margin__Walker]

Any chance we could get some of the non-racist English posters back on the bored?

That UK politics thread on there feels like 2024 Twitter. Complete shit show.

Just no chance of any reasoned conversation.

[earl the beaver]

Any chance we could get some of the non-racist English posters back on the bored?

That UK politics thread on there feels like 2024 Twitter. Complete shit show.

Just no chance of any reasoned conversation.

Can the Aussies also come and take their right wing weirdos away too.

[Biffer]

Nigel seems to be very upset that the phrase #FarageRiots is trending on twitter. Poor chap. How awful.

[SaintK]

Nigel seems to be very upset that the phrase #FarageRiots is trending on twitter. Poor chap. How awful.

Well he may be. The cunt knows exactly what he's doing.

AS does this chinless wonder.

[epwc]

If anyone’s seen the scenes in Bristol and Walthamstow I think it’s clear the people have spoken and it’s against fascist thugs

[Tichtheid]

If anyone’s seen the scenes in Bristol and Walthamstow I think it’s clear the people have spoken and it’s against fascist thugs

From what I can gather Brighton did us proud too. The thugs were massively outnumbered, hugely, there were thousands v a handful. There was a "celebratory atmosphere" according to the local rag.

That rag carried a picture of a broken egg on the pavement - that was as violent as it got.